Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

[Apech]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Thank you for the references.  I'm yet to check out the Phantom Time version you posted, but I'm familiar with the theory from (mostly) Russian sources, and they talk not just about the invented events that supposedly took place but really were made up, but quite a lot about "missing time" -- a whole millennium, no less, and not that long ago -- that was simply skillfully removed from our purported history.  Damn, they make up stuff today that didn't happen and omit most of crucial information about what did happen, so, no wonder.  Cherry-picking everything that did happen too, so you learn an aspect of the story spinned toward conditioning your beliefs this way or that way, and out of context partial truths are perhaps more dangerous than outright lies because they have something to show as proof -- used to cover the ass of a bigger lie. 

 

Carbon dating, however, is notoriously imprecise for real, and more and more information about serious flaws in the method is coming from most "non-outrageous" sources, so methinks "suspending disbelief" in its accuracy would run counter to the scientific evidence of its inaccuracy.   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180605112057.htm

 

Separate thanks for the newly-discovered tablet.  

 

How can we make sense of it all?  Perhaps partial sense has already been made by some -- that's a start...  Of course we are trying to assemble a picture while missing out on countless details.  But the human mind, intuition, vestigial embodied memory, the ability to integrate disjointed and seemingly unrelated information from multiple sources...  sheer feeling of "rightness" and "wrongness" some of us still discern through all the bombardment with all the confusion...  all of it together and more -- is pretty good at filling in the blanks sometimes and getting at least the general picture right if not all the impossible details.  When I was a kid, my dad involved me in his hobby, black and white photography, and I participated in printing pictures (the kitchen would be temporarily converted into a photo lab.)  So I would hold a blank sheet of photographic paper under that thing that projected the picture from the film -- you couldn't tell what you were looking at on the film because the black and white were reversed, as were all the shades of gray -- so, you held it under that whatchamacallit magnifier, counting so you don't overexpose it, then dip it into a solution that would start revealing the picture -- very vaguely at first, you watch closely not to overdo it and count again, and then it becomes clearer and clearer,  you see a perfect image and promptly dip the sheet into another solution, the fixer.  Making sense of stuff you can only discern very vaguely at first seems somewhat similar to this process to me.  There's many ways it can go wrong, but there's also a way to get it right -- after all, it's a picture of something real in the past, and no one will ever convince me that my mind is not equipped to do what a bunch of apparatuses and chemicals can.  Put a picture together by being patient and careful, and make sense of it.    

 

I find the Phantom Time business, which is new to me, fascinating.  After all 'histoire' and similar words in Romance languages from which we get our 'history' just means a story.  But a story doesn't really mean a fiction - not in the sense of something fantastical and made up - what I think it means is a narrative supplied in order to make sense of what has happened.  It supplies meaning rather than derives meaning.  After all, even our recall of fairly recent events is notoriously creaky, and wise/clever people who realise this devote time to supplying narratives e.g. Shakespeare in his historical plays for the late Medieval and Churchill in the post war period.  From this we build some kind of view, identity and perspective on the world - as well as a kind of glimpse into underlying truth.  The idea that for instance Charlemagne might be a kind of reverse engineered fiction to justify the political power and position of later monarchs is quite appealing.  I suppose the narratives of narratives are myths.  They become myths I would suggest because of the underlying truth they express.  So Gilgamesh is true in some sense even if not literally.  In fact literal truth may be unhelpfully dull whereas narrative truth is illuminating.

 

This kind of blows up any idea that History as a subject is a kind of science - along with its related subjects of archeology and anthropology (sociology even) - they are narrative providers really.  For instance how often I've found in archeology that vast theories about societies and cultures are built on a very few dusty fragments - an act of creative imagination more than anything.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

Here's a new link in Siberia for an unknown canine. https://gizmodo.com/found-frozen-and-almost-perfectly-preserved-in-permafro-1840093915

 

Carbon dating is used, unfortunately...

 

8 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Carbon dating, however, is notoriously imprecise for real, and more and more information about serious flaws in the method is coming from most "non-outrageous" sources, so methinks "suspending disbelief" in its accuracy would run counter to the scientific evidence of its inaccuracy.   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180605112057.htm

 

 

Thanks for the link! I didn't know that it was under scrutiny at the moment. Learn something new every day...

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Here's a new link in Siberia for an unknown canine. https://gizmodo.com/found-frozen-and-almost-perfectly-preserved-in-permafro-1840093915

 

Carbon dating is used, unfortunately...

 

 

Thanks for the link! I didn't know that it was under scrutiny at the moment. Learn something new every day...

 

Carbon dating is ok if you remember the +/- errors - and use it as a broad general guide and not cast iron proof.

 

Q:  Have you ever used Carbon Dating?

A:  No - but I've signed up to Match.com

 

(Old jokes are the best, eh?).

[mark]

On 8/29/2019 at 3:57 AM, Taomeow said:

The term a-nun-na-ke-ne in the Sumerian language, what we pronounce "annunaki," is translated as "the Seed of the Master."  This term was used as a compound name for a number of gods varying from 7 to 600, depending on the source and period -- and they were worshipped for two and a half thousand years.  When the posterity and collaborators of the original 7 were included, the Seed of the Master referred to the mighty god Ninurta and his pals, all posterity of An (or Anu) and his son Enlil, the God of Influences (in modern times coyly translated as "winds"), and Enki (later Ea to Akkadians), the God of Water, knowledge, creation, mischief and deceit.  

 

Apparently the annunaki encountered competition later (in the second millenium B.C.) from the Babylonian "Master gods," called i-gi-gi-ne.  It's somewhat unclear who these new Masters were and what their status was, since some sources assert the igigi were masters over the annunaki themselves, while others argue that they were their servants.  

 

This is how the annunaki were typically depicted at the time.  (The one entry in the middle where someone wrote "Equador" needs further investigation -- the attribution appears to be false, even though the plumed thingies looking very similar are all over the pre-Inca and pre-Maya artifacts of South America I've seen with my own eyes in the museums of Peru, but I wouldn't vouch for this particular one that it's from the same source.)  It is interesting to note the repeating details -- wings, a bracelet with a disc on the wrist, the bucket and the pine cone which apparently is dipped into the bucket and then...  Well, don't ask me, my take is faaaaar oooooout...    

 

Taomeow, do you have info about the sumerian equivalent of a god of the underworld or a purgatory realm like Diyu?

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

I’m beginning to wonder if we need another group effort to report Mr Blah Blah Blah everything and the kitchen sink to get him to shut up like he was already warned three times.

 

He is like a dog that creeps forward to take the food he knows he is not allowed to . He knows he will get into trouble for it  , but relentlessly , when he thinks no one is watching or , even more silly, that the watcher has somehow forgotten the  " No ! " he himself gave , the dog still tries .

 

The only thing for it is to hit Mr E. on the nose with a rolled up newspaper .

 

Sean !    Could you please hit Everything on the nose with a rolled up newspaper ?

 

Thanks .

 

 

I will even supply the the roll of paper ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I find the Phantom Time business, which is new to me, fascinating.  After all 'histoire' and similar words in Romance languages from which we get our 'history' just means a story.  But a story doesn't really mean a fiction - not in the sense of something fantastical and made up - what I think it means is a narrative supplied in order to make sense of what has happened.  It supplies meaning rather than derives meaning.  After all, even our recall of fairly recent events is notoriously creaky, and wise/clever people who realise this devote time to supplying narratives e.g. Shakespeare in his historical plays for the late Medieval and Churchill in the post war period.  From this we build some kind of view, identity and perspective on the world - as well as a kind of glimpse into underlying truth.  The idea that for instance Charlemagne might be a kind of reverse engineered fiction to justify the political power and position of later monarchs is quite appealing.  I suppose the narratives of narratives are myths.  They become myths I would suggest because of the underlying truth they express.  So Gilgamesh is true in some sense even if not literally.  In fact literal truth may be unhelpfully dull whereas narrative truth is illuminating.

 

This kind of blows up any idea that History as a subject is a kind of science - along with its related subjects of archeology and anthropology (sociology even) - they are narrative providers really.  For instance how often I've found in archeology that vast theories about societies and cultures are built on a very few dusty fragments - an act of creative imagination more than anything.

 

 

 

One thing I have had to constantly point out about science and research (to both it proponents and  critics ). In nearly all cases they reveal to us  what has been discovered    SO FAR . 

 

And new discoveries  can often change a whole outlook .    Even as recent as the 1970s   (  discovered previously unknown 'lost civilisation' on par with Egypt, IVC and Mesopotamia)  .   Or old , ignored or  disappeared  , information being bought to light  ( eg, re writing the whole history of pre colonial Australia ) .

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Carbon dating is ok if you remember the +/- errors - and use it as a broad general guide and not cast iron proof.

 

Q:  Have you ever used Carbon Dating?

A:  No - but I've signed up to Match.com

 

(Old jokes are the best, eh?).

 

You must be aware of the Egyptian 'revised chronology'  ? 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Rohl)

[Taomeow]

58 minutes ago, mark said:

 

Taomeow, do you have info about the sumerian equivalent of a god of the underworld or a purgatory realm like Diyu?

 

I found this about their god of the underworld (in the Ancient History Encyclopedia):

 

NERGAL - Also known as Erra/Irra, the Sumerian god of war, pestilence, destruction, death, and the underworld, co-ruler with Ereshkigal, but originally associated with Shamash, the sun god, and a solar deity. His cult center was at Kutha where he was first known as Meslamtaea, an agricultural god associated with the heat of the sun in its negative aspects. The intensity of the summer sun (or the sun at midday) was thought to be caused by Meslamtaea's fury and shifted from a regional god to a universal god associated with the negative aspects of life. Nergal is best known for insulting Namtar, Ereshkigal's representative at the feast of the gods, and having to make amends to her, resulting in their love affair and his eventual move to the underworld to live with her. In some myths he is credited with creating human beings and in incantations is invoked for protection because of his great strength. As Erra he is famous from the work The Wrath of Erra in which he destroys Babylon for no reason. 

 

How similar or dissimilar their underworld is to Diyu, I'd have to investigate.  What I do know off the top of my head is that some Sumerian afterlife beliefs were strikingly similar to those upheld to this day in many Asian cultures -- in China and (especially) non-mainland Chinese countries, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc..  They had a concept corresponding to the Chinese gui, hungry ghosts, and the same idea about how these come to be.  They are what people became after death who died prematurely, died a violent death, were poor and hungry and suffering while alive, were not buried properly, and are not fed by their descendants in a special ritual offering food, drink, incense and remembrance.  These ghosts were called gidim in Sumerian, etemmu in Akkadian.  They were feared, because they invaded the world of the living and took revenge on them if hungry and cold in afterlife, starting with their own descendants.  So feeding them was not so much in veneration as in self-preservation. 

 

Interestingly, early taoism, which found quite a few gods, ghosts and demons inside the human body and mind (not all of them were inner but some, indisputably, were) imagined "feeding the ancestors" not only as an external ritual but also as a personal choice of a diet that one's ancestors would choose.  I.e. eating only whatever is popular/readily available today was understood as a diet that can anger the "inner ancestors" and cause them to mess up one's health and shorten one's life.

[Taomeow]

Those "purses" or maybe "buckets" of the gods (found all over Sumerian depictions and also at Gobekli Tepe) 

look an awful lot like something else too.  Padlocks.  The most distinctive signifier of civilization and domestication.  Something the owner of cattle, property, or slaves would install on a barn door.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Taomeow

[mark]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I found this about their god of the underworld (in the Ancient History Encyclopedia):

 

NERGAL - Also known as Erra/Irra, the Sumerian god of war, pestilence, destruction, death, and the underworld, co-ruler with Ereshkigal, but originally associated with Shamash, the sun god, and a solar deity. His cult center was at Kutha where he was first known as Meslamtaea, an agricultural god associated with the heat of the sun in its negative aspects. The intensity of the summer sun (or the sun at midday) was thought to be caused by Meslamtaea's fury and shifted from a regional god to a universal god associated with the negative aspects of life. Nergal is best known for insulting Namtar, Ereshkigal's representative at the feast of the gods, and having to make amends to her, resulting in their love affair and his eventual move to the underworld to live with her. In some myths he is credited with creating human beings and in incantations is invoked for protection because of his great strength. As Erra he is famous from the work The Wrath of Erra in which he destroys Babylon for no reason. 

 

How similar or dissimilar their underworld is to Diyu, I'd have to investigate.  What I do know off the top of my head is that some Sumerian afterlife beliefs were strikingly similar to those upheld to this day in many Asian cultures -- in China and (especially) non-mainland Chinese countries, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc..  They had a concept corresponding to the Chinese gui, hungry ghosts, and the same idea about how these come to be.  They are what people became after death who died prematurely, died a violent death, were poor and hungry and suffering while alive, were not buried properly, and are not fed by their descendants in a special ritual offering food, drink, incense and remembrance.  These ghosts were called gidim in Sumerian, etemmu in Akkadian.  They were feared, because they invaded the world of the living and took revenge on them if hungry and cold in afterlife, starting with their own descendants.  So feeding them was not so much in veneration as in self-preservation. 

 

Interestingly, early taoism, which found quite a few gods, ghosts and demons inside the human body and mind (not all of them were inner but some, indisputably, were) imagined "feeding the ancestors" not only as an external ritual but also as a personal choice of a diet that one's ancestors would choose.  I.e. eating only whatever is popular/readily available today was understood as a diet that can anger the "inner ancestors" and cause them to mess up one's health and shorten one's life.

 

The parallels with Hades and Persephone seem strong, aswell as a scorpio /scarab beetle theme regarding the sun. Interestingly under sidereal the sun is currently in scorpio.

 

Would it be in the interests of a force or faction to steer an invasion into the living by gui, perhaps to weaken a boundary for ulterior purposes?

[Nungali]

22 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Those "purses" or maybe "buckets" of the gods (found all over Sumerian depictions and also at Gobekli Tepe) 

look an awful lot like something else too.  Padlocks.  The most distinctive signifier of civilization and domestication.  Something the owner of cattle, property, or slaves would install on a barn door.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Sumerians might have had the locks , but the Egyptians had the keys    .

 

 

... and if that failed, they also had ' the crowbars of the Gods'     

 

 

 

[Nungali]

Here is how a lock works in some tribal societies  -

 

Anthropologist ; " Why do some of the huts in the village have a  piece of wood leaning up against the outside of the door ?"

 

Villager ;  " That means no one  is home. Its to stop people going in when no one is home ."

 

Anthropologist ; " But one cold just lift the beam away and go in . "

 

Villager ;  (confused )  "  But no one would do that, why would you go into someone's hut if they where not there ? '

[Apech]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

You must be aware of the Egyptian 'revised chronology'  ? 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Rohl)

 

I watched some vids either by or about Rohl's ideas a few years ago.  I wasn't very convinced but I can't remember why.

[Taomeow]

33 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

The Sumerians might have had the locks , but the Egyptians had the keys    .

 

 

... and if that failed, they also had ' the crowbars of the Gods'     

 

 

 

 

 

A little bird who looks somewhat like this one but more like its scaly relatives told me a secret.  An ankh is not a key.  It is the universal intergalactic symbol of a sandal.  (Later modified/simplified into a cross.)  Footwear -- which signifies the first step on the path away from hunting and foraging in the woods toward walking the road of civilization.  A species that has sandals is no longer wild -- this is what the symbol proclaims to the civilizations of the worlds.  It will be viewed as potential partner, future ally, or -- more often -- as lucrative product, but regardless, it means it is ripe for control, it is no longer fully a wild thing.

 

And as wild things, we were respected, mind you.  The "crowbar" is not a crowbar, it is an implement for hunting in the water.  Including luring a land animal, a predator, into the water -- where we would have an advantage because we can hold our breath under water and attack -- usually in packs -- both from above and from below.  Try throwing a large land-dwelling animal in the water and grabbing its hind leg from below -- it will immediately become confused and start thrashing about rather than continuing the attack.  That's when that "crowbar" can grab -- we used alligator jaws woven into the shaft to make those grabbers originally -- and drag it down and drown, or pierce the belly from below with that sharp hook on top.  The lower part of which was also the trigger for the grabber that locked it in place.  It was a versatile tool.   

 

Humans don't remember their history because our current life span is so short.  But I talk to very long-lived non-humans on occasion, so they sometimes tell me a little bit of what they remember about us.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

 

A little bird who looks somewhat like this one but more like its scaly relatives told me a secret.  An ankh is not a key.  It is the universal intergalactic symbol of a sandal.  (Later modified/simplified into a cross.)  Footwear -- which signifies the first step on the path away from hunting and foraging in the woods toward walking the road of civilization.  A species that has sandals is no longer wild -- this is what the symbol proclaims to the civilizations of the worlds.  It will be viewed as potential partner, future ally, or -- more often -- as lucrative product, but regardless, it means it is ripe for control, it is no longer fully a wild thing.

 

And as wild things, we were respected, mind you.  The "crowbar" is not a crowbar, it is an implement for hunting in the water.  Including luring a land animal, a predator, into the water -- where we would have an advantage because we can hold our breath under water and attack -- usually in packs -- both from above and from below.  Try throwing a large land-dwelling animal in the water and grabbing its hind leg from below -- it will immediately become confused and start thrashing about rather than continuing the attack.  That's when that "crowbar" can grab -- we used alligator jaws woven into the shaft to make those grabbers originally -- and drag it down and drown, or pierce the belly from below with that sharp hook on top.  The lower part of which was also the trigger for the grabber that locked it in place.  It was a versatile tool.   

 

Humans don't remember their history because our current life span is so short.  But I talk to very long-lived non-humans on occasion, so they sometimes tell me a little bit of what they remember about us.

 

So you dont like my image of 'Horus the house breaker '  ?

 

Errrmmmm  .... I guess I forgot to end that post with a      

 

The 'crowbar' is a simplification / line drawing of

 

 

 

Anyways ....     could you ask your very long-lived non-human friends a question for me ;

 

What are these ones used for and how did they use them ?

 

 

... and this modern version, made in Russia ;

 

 

 

see the hands below

 

 

 

 

          

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

 

... and this modern version, made in Russia ;

 

 

 

I'll start with these which I happen to have.  But you have to keep in mind that I'm primarily an empiricist, not a scholar, so when something like this gets into my hands, I'll just monkey see monkey do before I read all the explanations, and then 9 times out of 10 I never go back to check the manual and just keep experimenting.  Yup, guilty as charged... oops, I'm revealing the effect already.  

 

They can charge your meditation.  But what matters is, it's like batteries --  more like an electric outlet actually -- what you get depends on what you plug in.  If you plug in a functional TV,  you'll get to watch TV.  If you plug in an electric toothbrush, you can brush your teeth.  If you plug in a table lamp with no bulb you'll get nothing.  If you plug in a table lamp with no bulb and stick your finger to where the bulb ought to go to check what's up, you'll get zapped.  And if you plug a 110 volt geared American appliance into a 220 volt European outlet, you'll fry the appliance.  

 

Am I making my metaphors clear so far?  

 

As for the rest, let me first assuage your doubts.  I didn't mean Egyptians knew what the ankh was, or the fishing spear with grabber.  I didn't mean they knew the actual object whose significance as a  symbol they may have inherited in a cargo cult of sorts -- they retained the notion of it being significant without having retained the connection to the actual object that's given birth to the symbol.  Much like today no one really knows (except for people in the know) that the Starbucks' mermaid stands for...  well, my turn to ask trick questions for a change of pace.  Tell me whence the Starbucks' mermaid really derives and I can try asking my scaled and feathered informant about your other illustrations.  (I wouldn't call him my "friend" -- he's not friendly and we're not close...  rather, you have to win his answers by showing a measure of astuteness, and you can't really know in advance which of your educated guesses might impress him into throwing a tidbit as reward).        

 

[Apech]

The ankh = sandal or sandal straps is a well attested Egyptological idea.  In fact Gardener and others use it but with rather tenuous justification.  One origin is the Palette of Narmer which pruports to show the king unifying the two lands (North and South Egypt) as below:

 

Behind the king is an attendant holding the king's sandals.  On one side he wears the crown of the North and on the other the crown of the south.  I believe this was found by Petrie at Herankonopolis.   One of the ancient capitals called Nekhen by the Egyptians.

 

I've seen a replica in the Ashmolean and it to my eye is far from convincing and far too convenient that such an object should be found - and the name of the king Narmer does not correspond to the king list name of Menes as the first dynastic pharaoh.  It certainly shows a king conquering various areas but it could be one of many pre-dynastic pretenders in my view.

 

The ankh means 'life' and bears only a passing resemblance to a sandal strap - its use in iconography is of a 'life force' which can be distributed from gods to men (and women) by gods in a form of libation - it flows over them.

 

The was scepter is usually thought of a symbol of Set (Sutekh) because its head resembles the Set beast - which is an unidentified animal with a long nose and long (usually square tipped) ears - rather like an okapi or ant-eater in appearance.  In early Egypt Set was not seen as evil but as equal and opposite to Horus as the god of kingship.  One pharaoh at least used both gods , Per-Ibsen:

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Apech

[Taomeow]

36 minutes ago, Apech said:

36 minutes ago, Apech said:

The ankh = sandal or sandal straps is a well attested Egyptological idea.  In fact Gardener and others use it but with rather tenuous justification.  One origin is the Palette of Narmer which pruports to show the king unifying the two lands (North and South Egypt) as below:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What did Egyptians (via Egyptologists, of course) have to say about those neck twisters on the left? Sumerians had them too, and referred to them as lions (there's a story there as well).    

 

36 minutes ago, Apech said:

The ankh = sandal or sandal straps is a well attested Egyptological idea. (...)

 

The ankh means 'life' and bears only a passing resemblance to a sandal strap -

 

Actually, I've made a pair of traditional huaraches for myself from scratch at one point and they were constructed not approximately but exactly like that.    The round part for the heel, the flip-flop strap between the big and second toe, and the things on the sides are tied over the top of the foot.  

Edited December 2, 2019 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I'll start with these which I happen to have.  But you have to keep in mind that I'm primarily an empiricist, not a scholar, so when something like this gets into my hands, I'll just monkey see monkey do before I read all the explanations, and then 9 times out of 10 I never go back to check the manual and just keep experimenting.  Yup, guilty as charged... oops, I'm revealing the effect already.  

 

They can charge your meditation.  But what matters is, it's like batteries --  more like an electric outlet actually -- what you get depends on what you plug in.  If you plug in a functional TV,  you'll get to watch TV.  If you plug in an electric toothbrush, you can brush your teeth.  If you plug in a table lamp with no bulb you'll get nothing.  If you plug in a table lamp with no bulb and stick your finger to where the bulb ought to go to check what's up, you'll get zapped.  And if you plug a 110 volt geared American appliance into a 220 volt European outlet, you'll fry the appliance.  

 

I got two different sets from Svetlana  from 'Wands of Horus'  for free, in exchange for a paper  I wrote on  indigenous geo-magnetic field sensing  and orienteering  and its expression in artwork . .... and a Scoobie Doo cap I sent her daughter  (from a Scoobie Doo movie I worked on - apparently she loved it and used to wear it all the time, even in bed  )

 

 

 

Quote

 

Am I making my metaphors clear so far?  

 

No, because I plugged my toothbrush into the wands and ...... nothing .    

 

 

Quote

 

As for the rest, let me first assuage your doubts.  I didn't mean Egyptians knew what the ankh was, or the fishing spear with grabber. 

 

The Egyptians DIDNT know the ank was  sandal strap ?

 

Okay then .

 

 

 

Quote

 

I didn't mean they knew the actual object whose significance as a  symbol they may have inherited in a cargo cult of sorts -- they retained the notion of it being significant without having retained the connection to the actual object that's given birth to the symbol.

 

Thats what I want to know - the ORIGINAL  usages of the actual object .

 

 

 

Quote

  Much like today no one really knows (except for people in the know) that the Starbucks' mermaid stands for...

 

She stands for integrity, good service and good coffee  ?

 

Wait ... I get it  now .

 

She cant 'stand'  for anything at all .   Sh'e got no feet .

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

  well, my turn to ask trick questions for a change of pace.  Tell me whence the Starbucks' mermaid really derives and I can try asking my scaled and feathered informant about your other illustrations.  (I wouldn't call him my "friend" -- he's not friendly and we're not close...  rather, you have to win his answers by showing a measure of astuteness, and you can't really know in advance which of your educated guesses might impress him into throwing a tidbit as reward).        

 

 

 

Awwww ... you just answered a question with a question .

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

 

What did Egyptians (via Egyptologists, of course) have to say about those neck twisters on the left? Sumerians had them too, and referred to them as lions (there's a story there as well).    

 

Giraffes ... from 'Punt'   ? 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

 

Actually, I've made a pair of traditional huaraches for myself from scratch at one point and they were constructed not approximately but exactly like that.    The round part for the heel, the flip-flop strap between the big and second toe, and the things on the sides are tied over the top of the foot.  

 

[Taomeow]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

The Egyptians DIDNT know the ank was  sandal strap ?

 

Okay then .

 

 

"Okay then."  Not what I said or meant.  What I said and meant was, it doesn't matter if they did or didn't.  It is interpreted (see Apech's contribution, e.g., though this is something that entered mainstream and new age and what not, unlike the sandal explanation) as "life" etc..  What my scaled and feathered informant asserted though is that it's not just any "life" it means but "civilized life" exclusively.   And whether Egyptians knew it en masse or not, I don't know.  But, like I said, it doesn't matter, because this interpretation ascribes the significance of the symbol to something bigger than the knowledge (or superstition, whatever the case may be) possessed by Egyptians.

 

The second thing, the fishing spear/grabber, is also something I don't know whether they remembered hundreds of thousands of years of using like that or, again, adopted and reinterpreted much later as a symbol of certain "power" or redesigned to do something else and reinterpreted the meaning of or the function of or both.  But that, again, doesn't matter.  In this case, it is a symbol whose interpretation of "power" comes from the actual power once wielded by those who used it as described.  Humans who used tools without yet taking the perilous step of becoming tools.        

Edited December 2, 2019 by Taomeow

[liminal_luke]

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Tell me whence the Starbucks' mermaid really derives and I can try asking my scaled and feathered informant about your other illustrations.  (I wouldn't call him my "friend" -- he's not friendly and we're not close...  rather, you have to win his answers by showing a measure of astuteness, and you can't really know in advance which of your educated guesses might impress him into throwing a tidbit as reward).        

 

 

Ishtar?

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

 

What did Egyptians (via Egyptologists, of course) have to say about those neck twisters on the left? Sumerians had them too, and referred to them as lions (there's a story there as well).    

 

 

Actually, I've made a pair of traditional huaraches for myself from scratch at one point and they were constructed not approximately but exactly like that.    The round part for the heel, the flip-flop strap between the big and second toe, and the things on the sides are tied over the top of the foot.  

 

 

Not much because they are as you point out not very Egyptian and possibly Sumerian - the circular space between the necks is where the malachite was ground and mixed to make eye make up.  Green was the colour of health, wholeness and soundness - so green eye make-up was good.

 

I had to look up 'huaraches' - I'd never heard of them

 

There's another fringe theory about the ankh - that is a cross section of a bovine vertebrae.

 

[Apech]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Ishtar?

 

I once went into Starbucks and asked for a tall, white Americano - and Robert Mitchum walked out from behind the counter.  Would you believe it?

[Taomeow]

24 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Ishtar?

 

Possibly -- they may be related -- but primarily Melusine, the progenitor water dragon/woman/monster/serpent/fairy/mermaid/queen o'two tails many European royal families still trace their official genealogy to as the progenitor of the royal blood lineages -- the Plantagenet families, Angevin, the House of Anjou and Vere and the Merovingians, in particular.