Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

[Taomeow]

sipad he2-em-ta-ab-ed3-de3-a
udu-ni šu-a li-bi2-in-gi4 
 

If you get rid of the shepherd,
then his sheep will never come back!

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Taomeow

[dwai]

 

Quote

When in the height heaven was not named, 
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name, 
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them, 
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both 
Their waters were mingled together, 
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen; 
When of the gods none had been called into being, 
And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained; 
Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven...

 

This reminds of the Nāsadiya Sukta from the Rig Veda, 129th verse from the 10th Mandala --

Taken the below translation from AL Basham's work

Quote

Then even nothingness was not, nor existence.
There was no air then, nor the heavens beyond it.

What covered it? Where was it? In whose keeping?
Was there then cosmic water, in depths unfathomed?

 

Then there were neither death nor immortality,
nor was there then the torch of night and day.

The One breathed windlessly and self-sustaining.
There was that One then, and there was no other.

 

At first there was only darkness wrapped in darkness.
All this was only unillumined water.

That One which came to be, enclosed in nothing,
arose at last, born of the power of heat.

 

In the beginning desire descended on it -
that was the primal seed, born of the mind.

The sages who have searched their hearts with wisdom
know that which is, is kin to that which is not.

 

And they have stretched their cord across the void,
and know what was above, and what below.

Seminal powers made fertile mighty forces.
Below was strength, and over it was impulse.

 

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
whence it all came, and how creation happened?

The gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

 

Whence all creation had its origin,
he, whether he fashioned it or whether he did not,
he, who surveys it all from highest heaven,
he knows - or maybe even he does not know.

 

The Rig Veda was arbitrarily attributed a composition date of 1500 BCE by European philologists based on their belief in the Biblical Creation date of ~ 4000 BCE. Traditional Indian estimates this between 15000 BCE and 6000 BCE (depending on who you reference)..

 

Couldn't help but see a striking similarity 

Edited December 6, 2019 by dwai

[Nungali]

Written complied texts or oral tradition?

 

Opinion of  a friend I converse with in India ( the 'Arctic origins of the Vedas guy ) - he is very elderly , a Brahman, and   some caste that is in charge of ritual and ceremonies .

 

" Most of RigVeda was written after Aryans reached India, i.e., Book 1 and 10, which constitute about 25% of it. The older books, Book 2 - 7, constitute 38% of RigVeda. Then, the books are not in any chronological order. One will find a hymn composed in an earlier era in between the hymns composed in a later era, and vice-versa. Even the older hymns are not the original hymns. They were translations of the oldest hymns by later poets who were living in a locale different from the locales in which the older hymns were written.

The common language kept changing from whatever was used in the Indo-European times to Early Vedic and then to Later Vedic. They had no idea about what the old hymns were referring to and transcribed what seemed to them to be the most probable. That is why there is a tradition as old as 2000 BCE of grammarians and poets trying to find the meaning of what was written in the older hymns. These people were called Niruktikaras (Nirukti means etymology). And then lastly the hymns were compiled according to the supposed families of the hymn writers.

The best knowledge about locales and conditions in which RigVeda was written comes from astronomical and climatic references. One cannot be sure that if RigVeda was talking about an Ashwattha tree, whether it was the Indian Banyan or pepul tree or a fig tree in Central Asia, both belong to the same genera. If they were talking about Saraswati, which Saraswati was it. Was it the Saraswati in punjab or River Argandhab in Kandhar region of Afghanistan known to Zoroastrians as Haraxvaiti, and there are two more rivers in Turkmenistan and Kazakhistan which are known a Sari-Su (which means a Golden River).

Hakara is an extension of Ghaggar, a channel which will have water when there are copious rains. It was an outflow from the Vijaynagar Anupgarh Suratgarh Hanumangarh depression where Saraswati dried up. There may have been times when Saraswati (by which I mean Ghaggar) may have joined Sutlej or Indus directly. Sutlej is a trans-Himalayan river, Yamuna rises in deep Himalayas, both are snow-fed, while Ghagghar rises in low Sivalik hills, the first range of mountains after the plains. Ghaggar has extensive flow in times of good rains and floods the area frequently. As perhas you know, researchers date the change around 1,900 BCE because of climate change as well as tectonic upheaval, both of which are quite possible. Even two days ago there was an earthquake in that area, but fortunately, it measured just 3.2 on Richter scale. It is a grade IV tectonic region. There have been much stronger quakes in recent times in Simla (Himachal pradesh) and Uttarkashi (Uttarakhand).  "

 

 

........

 

When in the height heaven was not named, 
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name, 
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them, 
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both 
Their waters were mingled together, 
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen; 
When of the gods none had been called into being, 
And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained; 
Then were created the gods in the midst of heaven.

 

Before the Dreamtime the earth was a flat disc of sand with no features,  beneath the stars.

and on that earth lay Ungud - the Rainbow Serpent . Ungud would look u to the stars , to Wallenganda, the Milky Way, the big black snake . And Wallenganda      asked Ungud "Why are you looking at me." and he answered "because you look so beautiful, up there with all your stars with the big black river running through the middle and all the stars around which are the campfires of your children along the river bank .

 

But I have no children and am all alone.  So wallenganda lowered her head from the sky and spat some of her water down on Ungud.  Ungud took it down under the earth, diving through the surface and leaving a big sand hill behind which became Uluru .

And in that water he multiplied himself and numerous rainbow serpents went out through the earth, making valleys rivers and soaks and springs.  And then Unguds spread the seeds of all the different forms of life where ever they went

[Taomeow]

56 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

The Rig Veda was arbitrarily attributed a composition date of 1500 BCE by European philologists based on their belief in the Biblical Creation date of ~ 4000 BCE. Traditional Indian estimates this between 15000 BCE and 6000 BCE (depending on who you reference)..

 

Couldn't help but see a striking similarity 

 

Thank you, yes, that's pretty cool.  Especially the last line, which a taoist can read as "not only is tao a mystery, she's a mystery even to herself! )

 

I suspect the biblical creation dating permeates our archeology too (to name just one science that never really broke its familial ties with folks who burned heretics at the stake).  What a mess that is.  Scientific tools and methods that are quite regularly discarded as unscientific upon closer inspection.  Educated guesses and hypotheses that transition into the realm of "facts" as soon as someone pays for their ticket to ride into that realm.  Forgeies and fakes and unreliables, massive hidden evidence of whatever could rock the academic boat.  The storage facilities of most wealthy museums are orders of magnitude larger than display premises -- to say nothing of private acquisition by the filthy rich collectors or governments, looting at conquest/colonization time, wartime looting.  Cutthroat personal and academic competition, rampant racism and speciesm, past and current political agendas and continuous revisions of the past information to facilitate compliance with present bias.  Manipulation by religious and materialistic fundamentalism alike -- whatever you're looking at, you're looking at a minefield where only conformists survive academic competition, only people who have figured out what to say yes sir to.  I better stop.

 

Between 15000 and 6000 BCE seems like an interesting time.  Do traditional Indian estimates have any proof, evidence to corroborate this dating?  

[dwai]

 

Quote

Between 15000 and 6000 BCE seems like an interesting time.  Do traditional Indian estimates have any proof, evidence to corroborate this dating?  

The vedic texts themselves have sufficient astronomical data to provide time windows. Unlike ancient western astronomy, indian astronomy never suffered from the problem of not factoring in the precession of the equinoxes. As a result, traditional indian astronomy quite accurate by modern standards.

 

There has been a great and concerted effort by western academics who still milk the "Aryan Invasion/Aryan Migration theory" and just scatterbrained ascription of dates by 19th century europeans like Max Mueller, Mortimer Wheeler etc, to prevent fresh study.

 

I know a few traditionally trained indian scholars personally who've relentlessly pursued the truth over the past 30-40 years, and its bearing fruit now.

 

One such brilliant scholars is Neelesh Oak. I'm pasting a video by him that discusses his methodology etc below in a spoiler window. His dating of Ramayana and Mahabharata are sufficient to result in the Rg Veda composition to be put before 10,000 BCE at the very latest. 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 7, 2019 by dwai

[Taomeow]

.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Taomeow
Not ready

[Apech]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

 

The vedic texts themselves have sufficient astronomical data to provide time windows. Unlike ancient western astronomy, indian astronomy never suffered from the problem of not factoring in the precession of the equinoxes. As a result, traditional indian astronomy quite accurate by modern standards.

 

There has been a great and concerted effort by western academics who still milk the "Aryan Invasion/Aryan Migration theory" and just scatterbrained ascription of dates by 19th century europeans like Max Mueller, Mortimer Wheeler etc, to prevent fresh study.

 

I know a few traditionally trained indian scholars personally who've relentlessly pursued the truth over the past 30-40 years, and its bearing fruit now.

 

One such brilliant scholars is Neelesh Oak. I'm pasting a video by him that discusses his methodology etc below in a spoiler window. His dating of Ramayana and Mahabharata are sufficient to result in the Rg Veda composition to be put before 10,000 BCE at the very latest. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

What explanation is given of the genetic and linguistic information which seems to support some kind of migration of a distinct group of people i.e. Aryans, do you know?  Thanks.

[Nungali]

First does the term 'composition' as used by  dwai  mean an oral tradition or the tradition that appeared, written via the process my quote above describes . WHICH by the way is by a VERY traditional Indian scholar (in their sense of the term )  and not a 19 c western academic .

 

Secondly, I am assuming that you know as well as I do about the wealth  and extent of  genetic and linguistic  information to support an ... let's call it ... 'an ingress'  of  'Aryan' peoples into Nth India .   I can easily post it here . But since you asked dwai about it, I will await his answer .

[dwai]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

What explanation is given of the genetic and linguistic information which seems to support some kind of migration of a distinct group of people i.e. Aryans, do you know?  Thanks.

Out of India not into India 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/09/06/new-study-debunks-aryan-invasion-theory.amp.html

 

BTW i do know that there are competing studies which claim opposite inferences...  

Edited December 8, 2019 by dwai

[Nungali]

'Competing studies '   ?   Interesting . 

[dwai]

Just now, Nungali said:

'Competing studies '   ?   Interesting . 

Yeah there is a lot of politics involved. Western academia has a vested interest in continuing the AIT/AMT nonsense. They + Commies in India claim that the right wing Hindu nationalists are the ones with the agenda. 
 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Out of India not into India 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/09/06/new-study-debunks-aryan-invasion-theory.amp.html

 

BTW i do know that there are competing studies which claim opposite inferences...  

 

Thanks for the article.  Methinks the title is a bit at odds with the contents (as sensationalism would usually dictate to most publications on most subjects, not singling out this one.)  I.e. it doesn't "debunk" Aryan invasion, it proposes a possibly worthy of further explorations alternative hypothesis.  They ultimately got the genome of one individual.  Well, I'm one individual with a genome different from that of all my current neighbors.  If I were to leave behind any remains, which as a follower of immortalist taoism I'm trying to avoid, imagine someone sequencing my DNA ten thousand years down the road with no other samples available and concluding that North America had been conquered by the Russians.  

 

And this paragraph (an assertion not backed up by any reasons for such a conclusion) I'm not buying at all:  "Another significant claim in the study published in the scientific journal Cell, titled "An Ancient Harappan Genome Lacks Ancestry from Steppe Pastoralists or Iranian Farmers”, is that farming was not brought to South Asia by large-scale movement of people from the Fertile Crescent where farming first arose. Instead, farming started in South Asia by local hunter-gatherers."

 

No.  Farming as an alternative lifestyle to that of hunter-gatherers has never been started by any local hunter-gatherers anywhere.  Elements may have always been there, but a cultural switch, a "voluntary" one, is one of the made-up stories I'm sure.  However it started, that story about us just somehow "naturally" starting it anywhere would imply all our ancestors suddenly and irreversibly went globally insane.  To swap the 8 to 16 hours per week work schedule of the hunter-gatherer for the 12 to 18 hours per day schedule of the farmer?  It's like expecting a modern nine-to-fiver to just spontaneously, with no pressure from the boss, to start working a 20-hour 7 days a week schedule because they figured they could make more money this way.

As they put it in Sumer, sipad he2-em-ta-ab-ed3-de3-a udu-ni šu-a li-bi2-in-gi4 .   No shepherd, no sheep in enclosures.   
 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Yeah there is a lot of politics involved. Western academia has a vested interest in continuing the AIT/AMT nonsense. They + Commies in India claim that the right wing Hindu nationalists are the ones with the agenda. 
 

 

 

I am well aware of the dynamics here and the numbers of researches, results and vocalists on both sides .

 

That link you made is pretty bizarre . It is saying all these wacky things  that are NOT in the modern concepts of  'Aryan' migration into India  and disputing them to knock out AIT  that the research DOES NOT indicate in the first place . I believe that is called 'straw man ;, in this case 'straw men'

 

A couple of examples .   First they always criticise AIT ... that was out yonks back  and went to AMT , things are still a little unclear and thats why I used the term I did ; 'ingress' , THAT seems certain,  Case in question , the skeletons cited , once some one said they where killed by invades , more research has shown that isnt the case  - it sites our old 'friend' climate change. This too is up for debate (but seems to be  likely as PART of the process ) . Discovering that invades didnt slaughter those skeletons does not  negate all the other evidence .

 

And things in it like this :  " “The ancient-DNA results completely reject the theory of steppe pastoral or ancient Iranian farmers as source of ancestry to the Harappan population "     WHO considered that they where ?   Harrappan  / IVC has always been seen as a separate evolved people society cultural complex, etc . When it went into decline and its focused moved east,  then people from the north (Aryans) came in .   First it was claimed as an invasion that wiped the originals out, then as a migration which displaced them and now as, sort of, someone filling a void .

 

According to my studies in Central Asia and  BMAC culture  (which I might add is significant , I know this as I discuss on other  forums based on history and archaeology (one with a strong representation in several threads on AIT AMT  OOI  theories  and the pros there know little of BMAC ), there was contact LONG  ago between the two  ( IVC had a trading post at Shortugai, well over the Hindu Kush )   ,  any 'steppe' people or indeed postulated Aryan Culture that came to India went through the BMAC filter first , ie, it was a culture adapted by many influences .  Sometimes IVC had more influence  In BMAC  areas and sometime visa versa, until (with the climate change scenario ) and a drying and a failure of A monsoon ( IVC used to be a double monsoon season ) and probably, political  and organisational 'fluctuations' BMAC (  with an oasis  based agricultural ) moved south into an area of NW India that had that population moving east and south due to the same reasons ) .

 

Nowadays it is not considered that Aryans invaded and destroyed IVC culture, it lived on, it just moved and transformed ,

 

There are several other major faults in the article  that really stand out .  Obviously this is part of the  'Out of India' theory, where  'some people'   ( see how I nicely avoided the term 'Hindu Nationalist Party'  there  )  are trying to prove that not only did 'Indians '   have a  culture that spread up through Central Asia and into the Steppe and Russia , but  so did their language -  Indo European ( a much misunderstood term )  is  a form of Sanskrit  that went 'out of India' all through Europe ... and other stuff .

 

If anyone wants to go further into this I can direct you to these debates I am involved with elsewhere, which have a much more academic nature .  But some are professionals , both western and Indian ... and some even Western Indians ... and Indians in the West  

 

Eg

 

" The fact that you consistently claim the interdisciplinary findings of thousands of geologists, zoologists, archaeologists, botanists, linguists, historians, anthropologists, climate scientists, geneticists, and those from numerous other disciplines are wrong and only your interpretations, which are rooted in some archaic tradition whose fundamental purpose did not intersect with any of these fields, are right starts us off on the wrong footing. These external findings are correct and the interpretations based on them are likewise valid. There is no way to debate with you until you accept this.

In what follows, I'll yet again draw on bodies of evidence (like linguistics and archaeology) outside of the RV on the principle that a model (in this case AMT and the steppe hypothesis) should be consistent with and corroborated by most (or all) of the available evidence stemming from a variety of disciplines. This applies not just to proper interpretations (i.e. not yours) of the RV on linguistic and anthropological grounds but also external evidence for the AMT/steppe hypothesis in the form of archaeology, geology, climate science, genetics, and so on.

Of course, you'll erroneously state anything outside the RV does not mean or amount to anything, that {x: x \in Hindu literature} is the only set of sources anyone needs, and that any external evidence that contradicts the RV itself must be wrong. Know that if your response to this post is of such a form, then save both of us some time and don't bother because neither of us will ever agree so long as we maintain disparate standards of evidence.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

And I think you just  tagged this main stream and consensus multidisciplinary  view,   which is academic both within and without Indian Universities  as  'they'  ... being them that oppose  AIT ( Aryan Invasion Theory )   AMT (Aryan Migration  Theory)   'nonsense '  ( your word , and thus supporting Out of India Theory ... and that means all the stuff that GOES with OIT as well ) :

 

 " nonsense. They + Commies in India claim that the right wing Hindu nationalists are the ones with the agenda. 

 

First   this view means you must be a 'commie' does it  ?     Interesting !

 

And 2nd, after the above is read , it is again 'interesting' to see who you are claiming has ' the agenda ' .

 

Now, I am not surprised that someone who studies Vedanta, view that  their schools interpretation of the Vedas , and the Vedas themselves,  especially from an old school traditional teacher ... or just listens to one , is going to take on a similar  view ie  The Vedas 'tops' all other explanations of things .    Just like the Bible does for people that believe in that .

[Taomeow]

48 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

There are several other major faults in the article  that really stand out .  Obviously this is part of the  'Out of India' theory, where  'some people'   ( see how I nicely avoided the term 'Hindu Nationalist Party'  there  )  are trying to prove that not only did 'Indians '   have a  culture that spread up through Central Asia and into the Steppe and Russia , but  so did their language -  Indo European ( a much misunderstood term )  is  a form of Sanskrit  that went 'out of India' all through Europe ... and other stuff .

 

 

Finally we're on my turf again.   I've no idea what the Hindu national party is trying to prove, perhaps stuff similar to what all nationalist parties everywhere are always trying to prove -- vast superiority of their own over "other," toward boosting national pride, a reliable engine of distraction.  I think the term Indo-European has become controversial while I wasn't looking -- l wasn't aware of the controversy when it was part of my university course in comparative linguistics, I just studied for the tests, and when you do, you try not to worry too much about whether what you study actually exists (some of what I had to study actually didn't -- we had some funky subjects then and there...  but I suspect here and now there's even more of those non-existent sciences in existence.) 

 

But one thing I know for sure.  I don't know whether Indians migrated to Russia or vice versa (Russian nationalist parties now assert it's vice versa), but far as the language is concerned -- get this -- I understand a good deal of Sanskrit.  Which I never learned.  I understand it due to its uncanny similarity to Russian.  Not just the vocabulary for a lot of primary, basic words but the structure of the words, syntax, grammar, even style.  I have a good ear for languages in general, but I don't understand any Farsi, Kyrgyz, Tajik or Turkish or Arabic.  Sanskrit is different.  Go figure.  

Edited December 8, 2019 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

Oh they are similar, the question is which way the influence went .  Now, you would know as a linguist ,  about how the IE language 'net' interrelates, so if we look for the 'ripples' in that net we  come to conclusions  from all different linguistic sources, that do not  indicate Sanskrit as the root language that Influenced Russian and related languages .

 

There are some Russian related languages that have remarkable similarities with Sanskrit .

 

The IE language 'controversy'  is basic  and comes about nowadays  by people thinking that European languages  influenced Indo European   and not realising that   IE describes a  set of old languages  and evolved modern ones that expanded from Europe to parts of India ... that is Europe was the 'destination' not the origin .   This is further confused by various IE ' language   homeland'  ( Urhimat ) hypothesis  some say  Balkans   some say outside of Europe in Steppe . There is also confusion between Aryan and IE origins, language and homelands . 

[Apech]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

Out of India not into India 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theweek.in/news/india/2019/09/06/new-study-debunks-aryan-invasion-theory.amp.html

 

BTW i do know that there are competing studies which claim opposite inferences...  

 

 

As Nungali has already pointed out that article is all over the place - and I am sure the journalist who penned it did not understand what was being said to him.  It doesn't link to the original research paper either.  But Harrapan DNA is interesting in itself.  Why people are still quoting Mortimer Wheeler (even to debunk him) I have no idea, he died in 1976 FGS.  Any political influence should also be rejected as apart from anything else whatever we now call a country or people is irrelevant in 2000 BC or before.

 

I don't mind Out of India if it turns out to be true - but my sketchy understanding of the weight of linguistic and genetic evidence is Into India.  Anyway - what's the problem? - everyone comes from somewhere (else) if you go far back enough - didn't Vikings found the first Russian state (or has this been debunked now also  ).

 

I watched most of that Neelesh Oak vid you posted - very interesting and I bought one of his books on Kindle:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00INBA1UW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

The Historic Rama: Indian Civilization at the End of Pleistocene 

 

hope it' good

Edited December 8, 2019 by Apech

[Nungali]

Sounds good. I would read it .

 

Regarding what i was saying before about Aryan ingress INTO India and BMAC  . This site is a neat summary;

 

https://www.popflock.com/learn?s=Bactria-Margiana_Archaeological_Complex

 

eg ;

 

" The Bactria-Margiana complex has attracted attention as a candidate for those looking for the material counterparts to the Indo-Iranians (Aryans), a major linguistic branch that split off from the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Sarianidi himself advocates identifying the complex as Indo-Iranian, describing it as the result of a migration from southwestern Iran. Bactria-Margiana material has been found at Susa, Shahdad, and Tepe Yahya in Iran, but Lamberg-Karlovsky does not see this as evidence that the complex originated in southeastern Iran. "The limited materials of this complex are intrusive in each of the sites on the Iranian Plateau as they are in sites of the Arabian peninsula."

A significant section of the archaeologists are more inclined to see the culture as begun by farmers in the Near Eastern Neolithic tradition, but infiltrated by Indo-Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture in its late phase, creating a hybrid. In this perspective, Proto-Indo-Aryan developed within the composite culture before moving south into the Indian subcontinent. As James P. Mallory phrased it:

It has become increasingly clear that if one wishes to argue for Indo-Iranian migrations from the steppe lands south into the historical seats of the Iranians and Indo-Aryans that these steppe cultures were transformed as they passed through a membrane of Central Asian urbanism. The fact that typical steppe wares are found on BMAC sites and that intrusive BMAC material is subsequently found further to the south in Iran, Afghanistan, Nepal, India and Pakistan, may suggest then the subsequent movement of Indo-Iranian-speakers after they had adopted the culture of the BMAC. "

 

.. and some interesting pictures :

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Handled_Weight_LACMA_M.2001.11_(1_of_3).jpg

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

..... weighing things .

 

I wonder what this represents in a culture ???

 

[Apech]

36 minutes ago, Nungali said:

..... weighing things .

 

I wonder what this represents in a culture ???

 

 

 

Handbags!!!!!

 

Or:

 

Increasingly arid climate leads to irrigation.  Irrigation means field systems.  Field systems increase crop yields.  Increase crop yields lead to surpluses.  Surplus leads to trade.  Trade requires weights and measures.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Apech

[Nungali]

Here is an interesting map that shows the ' world '  at the time of 'Old Sumerian '

 

 

https://indo-european.eu/maps/chalcolithic/

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

As Nungali has already pointed out that article is all over the place - and I am sure the journalist who penned it did not understand what was being said to him.  It doesn't link to the original research paper either.  But Harrapan DNA is interesting in itself.  Why people are still quoting Mortimer Wheeler (even to debunk him) I have no idea, he died in 1976 FGS.  Any political influence should also be rejected as apart from anything else whatever we now call a country or people is irrelevant in 2000 BC or before.

 

I don't mind Out of India if it turns out to be true - but my sketchy understanding of the weight of linguistic and genetic evidence is Into India.  Anyway - what's the problem? - everyone comes from somewhere (else) if you go far back enough - didn't Vikings found the first Russian state (or has this been debunked now also  ).

 

I watched most of that Neelesh Oak vid you posted - very interesting and I bought one of his books on Kindle:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00INBA1UW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

The Historic Rama: Indian Civilization at the End of Pleistocene 

 

hope it' good

His books are good. Glad you got a copy. 

There are many factors in play along with genetic data, but I don’t have the time or patience to go into them right now. It’s not a cop out but I just don’t care to expend my energies on this kind of stuff anymore. 
 

 

As far as aryan “race” is concerned, it is very clear that there never was such a race. Arya means noble or cultured. So much havoc has been caused by pompous Europeans who wanted to justify their conquests that we’re still trying to clean up the debris from their taking a massive dump on Indian history (among others). 

 
 

 

[Everything]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

it is very clear that there never was such a race.

It is all being and becoming evermore here and now.

 

Including this topic which has requested the desire to understand the true source of all being and becoming evermore effortlessly here and now.

 

The question is not wether that desire as expressed in this topic has been answered. The question is what are you doing to allow yourself to receive that answers upon answers upon answers that are being given ongoingly evermore here and now, to you, for you, as you, with you.

 

You cannot perceive that which you are not in alignment with. So let the answer come to you, through the path of least resistance. Allowing is the key. To all natural being and becoming evermore here and now. To allow all of it be yielded to you ongoingly more effortlessly here and now. 

 

You will never find the answer when you look for it in translations of translations of translations of translations. When you come into alignment with the true answers that you seek, energy motionally, emotionally primarily first, as allowing is the key to that. You will find your answers evermore here and now, being and becoming evermore ongoingly more effortlessly here and now, under any and all conditions, regardless of any and all conditions, unconditionally, primarily energy motionally first, coming into alignment with the eternal and infinite ever expanding nature of Dao. Allowing it to be revealed to you ongoingly evermore effortlessly here and now through any and all conditions! under any and all conditions! AS THE SOURCE OF ALL THOSE CONDITIONS THAT ARE BEING AND BECOMING EVERMORE HERE AND NOW. Through your COMING INTO ALIGNMENT WITH THE DAO, THROUGH  YOUR GUIDED emotions, so that you can see the answers upon answers upon answers as they are being given to you ongoingly evermore here and now.

 

You look for love in all the wrong places. It is not in the condition, it is unconditionally being and becoming evermore here and now. As Dao is expressed through your very heart, soul and being, evermore ongoingly more effortlessly here and now. Under any and all conditions, regardless of any and all conditions, unconditionally, being and becoming evermore here and now, energy motionally, as the source of all of your conditions, as it is being and becoming evermore here and now in full harmony and alignment with the ever expanding infinite and eternal nature of Dao.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Everything

[sean]

On 10/31/2019 at 4:19 PM, sean said:

Thanks for reports, moved shenanigans to:

 

@Everything don't post in this topic anymore. 🙏

 

On 11/29/2019 at 4:02 AM, Everything said:

Dolphins are stewards of the ocean. Humanity future is as the steward of the land. And Robert Irwin is the steward of the land. And his father aswell. And they both speak australian. It sounds somewhat Irish to me. The future language of humanity sounds like that.

 

Wait... Now I am confused. Why does australian sound like irish?

This is interesting. 

 

Hey, if you wanted to be banned you could have just asked me. Ciao.

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

His books are good. Glad you got a copy. 

There are many factors in play along with genetic data, but I don’t have the time or patience to go into them right now. It’s not a cop out but I just don’t care to expend my energies on this kind of stuff anymore. 
 

 

As far as aryan “race” is concerned, it is very clear that there never was such a race. Arya means noble or cultured. So much havoc has been caused by pompous Europeans who wanted to justify their conquests that we’re still trying to clean up the debris from their taking a massive dump on Indian history (among others). 

 
 

 

 

It is a cop out and it is covered by more bunk . Aryan 'race' is BS . What has been looked at is Aryan CULTURE and I can put up evidence to show from archaeology and  genetics that the people of BMAC  had a very mixed ethnic background  (and I use those  words as there is no such thing as 'race'. )

 

ONE meaning that came to develop , mostly in the Indian branch, does mean  'noble'  but it isnt the only meaning. At different times and places, sub-sets of Arya had various meanings for the word .  Again, in archaeology and in anthropology Aryan is a designation of a type of culture .

 

If you dont care to expend your energies on this stuff you should not have made  bias claims in the first place and  also should not have thought that calling people that ascribe to the academic view  'commies'  would be ignored.

 

What, you thought that would NOT  'call me out ' ?  Well, I am called out  and if you cant back up what you have said, I am calling YOU out for  right wing bullshit .

 

Please demonstrate how the scholars involved in the development of AMT (around the world)  are 'commies' . Otherwise, what you wrote is  right wing conspiracy BS .

Edited December 8, 2019 by Nungali