Taomeow

Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

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27 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I meant spiritual as in 'of the spirit' = energy/awareness (maybe) - although I wouldn't rule out some evolutionary neural effects (in the broadest sense) where our hardwired world view caused some shift in consciousness.  

 

I see. 

Do you see what I see? 

 

 ftv0oguxqt541.jpg

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10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

It's fairly fundamental to ask, in terms of 'advanced people theories' what we mean by advanced and what are the causes and conditions of advancement. 

 

Yeah . The 'advanced' tag , in this case, was the old 'Empire expansionist theory' , what  the 'advancement' was supposed to be was 'Pharaonic   culture or system '  ... a system of regulation, or rule . .

 

A 'cross cultural influence' nowadays might be a better term .  Or something borrowed from one culture into another that caused changes in it

 

 

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

And other interesting questions such as why people all over the world at some time or another come up with the idea of building pyramid type structures (seems almost universal).  I think until these questions are settled ideas about how cultures originate will not be resolved.

 

Ah yes .  Aside from it being a basic stable shape based on a square room / base . ......  ( here is another one ... why did all these people, all over the world ,  start building square room shelters , usually, after round shelters became 'unfashionable ' ? 

 

Here is a hint , go and do some building yourself,  hands on, through the whole project . I have , both round and square and in (hint) different materials . 

 

10 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think, probably that what is behind all 'civilisation' is the mental shift from living off one's environment to that of manipulating your environment to suit you.  As I am a non-materialist I suspect that this change in outlook happened first - i.e. some kind of spiritual/emotional change in humans occurred which brought about this desire to build communities around controlled environments - ok this in itself might have been responsive to things like climate change (for instance a response to catastrophe - 'we won't let that happen again') but still the change in outlook probably must have pre-dated any change in lifestyle.

 

 

 

End of the Ice Age ? 

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3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Far as I've been able to discern, it always involved coercion.  The shift was never voluntary.  It was not a change of outlook.  It was a physical attack and pain and suffering and destruction of the lifestyle and the habitat that preceded the change of outlook.  Under a mountain of red tape they always kept a machine gun -- that's how you learn to respect the red tape.  Andean civilizations, another  pyramid building gang, were terrorizing all the indigenous tribes around them who feared them worse than death itself and fled farther and farther away when they could instead of "changing their outlook."  Inca and Maya did it as effectively and relentlessly as Sumer or Babylon or the British empire.   

 

I think the change was the introduction of coercion backed up by violence.  I decide what you are going to do, what you are going to be, or else you suffer and die.  That kind of a deal behind a new outlook.  

 

and perhaps that developed , as I said before, after animal husbandry ?   " Hmmmm .... if I can coerce and subjugate animals to do my work ... why not ..........  "

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24 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I see. 

Do you see what I see? 

 

 ftv0oguxqt541.jpg&key=99b8906dda9e94a1ab

 

What I see here are 3 kittys,  they haveall been locked out of the ' Garden of Eden' .  The one on the left is willing to accept civilisation and a small amount of oppression to get back in, but s/he will work against that and subtly undermine things to get hir own way, but  still living in an artificial environment ' s/he got that  "lets make a 'deal " look  . The one on the right is just distraught and will do anything to get back in out of hir banishment - not really aware of hir situation at all ;   " Pats, dinner and a warm bed ? Sure, I will dig an irrigation trench ! "

 

Third kitty has already left ... hooray, I'm out and away , s/he has gone to live free with the other feral cats, out in the wilderness .

 

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" Get out !  and take that foul mouthed parrot with you !   I am keeping the dog, by the way ." 

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14 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

and perhaps that developed , as I said before, after animal husbandry ?   " Hmmmm .... if I can coerce and subjugate animals to do my work ... why not ..........  "

 

Far as I know, grain agriculture predated animal husbandry.  At least in Mesopotamia it did.  

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Just now, Taomeow said:

 

Far as I know, grain agriculture predated animal husbandry.  At least in Mesopotamia it did.  

 

Yeah ?  I didnt know that about Mesopotamia ?

 

"  Husbandry has a long history, starting with the Neolithic revolution when animals were first domesticated, from around 13,000 BC onwards, antedating farming of the first crops. By the time of early civilisations such as ancient Egypt, cattle, sheep, goats and pigs were being raised on farms"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_husbandry

 

[  antedate   - precede in time; come before (something) in date. ]

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14 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Yeah ?  I didnt know that about Mesopotamia ?

 

"  Husbandry has a long history, starting with the Neolithic revolution when animals were first domesticated, from around 13,000 BC onwards, antedating farming of the first crops. By the time of early civilisations such as ancient Egypt, cattle, sheep, goats and pigs were being raised on farms"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_husbandry

 

[  antedate   - precede in time; come before (something) in date. ]

 

Being a simpleton I thought it went (1) hunter-gatherer - (2) pastoralism - (3) agriculture - in that order.

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58 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I see. 

Do you see what I see? 

 

 ftv0oguxqt541.jpg

 

Probably not.

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18 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Being a simpleton I thought it went (1) hunter-gatherer - (2) pastoralism - (3) agriculture - in that order.

 

Depends where , apparently . 

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44 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Yeah ?  I didnt know that about Mesopotamia ?

 

"  Husbandry has a long history, starting with the Neolithic revolution when animals were first domesticated, from around 13,000 BC onwards, antedating farming of the first crops. By the time of early civilisations such as ancient Egypt, cattle, sheep, goats and pigs were being raised on farms"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_husbandry

 

[  antedate   - precede in time; come before (something) in date. ]

 

You think I need a translation for "antedate?"  Just eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation, and I'll be fine. 

 

The rest is not consistent with what I've learned to date from Sumerian sources (yes, dumbly reading just the translations of the tablets, not Wiki.)  The sequence was, they built cities and planted crops; attacked "savages" who were hunter-gatherers, killed as many as they could, cut down and burned the forests; the savages that survived fled; some of them eventually took up animal husbandry, no longer able to forage and hunt.  So it was two parallel worlds initially.  They started intermixing some eventually.  Went to many wars too eventually, neither one willing to give up their brand of "the new way."  Some of those wars, incidentally, never ended.  I've heard from a tzadik, e.g., that all Palestinian conflicts since time immemorial were the extension and continuation of the never-resolved conflict between sedentary agriculturalists and nomadic herdsmen.  Cain was a grain agriculturalist, Abel was a herdsman.      

 

Edited by Taomeow
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( not you , but other readers might need clarity on the word  )

Edited by Nungali
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On 12/8/2019 at 2:55 PM, Taomeow said:

Agriculture makes it so.  Agriculture that throws off the fine balance that makes the land fertile, agriculture that destroys a few, then a few dozen, then a few hundred, then exponentially all the feedback loops between the land and its plants and animals and rivers and lakes, and starts rewriting the natural script which dictates absolute geophysical exemption of thermo periods from becoming arid.  Unless you interfere with the feedback loops. 

Agriculture (= deforestation) was the original sin.

Quote

Agriculture is the direct driver for worldwide deforestation
f1376173-45cb-4d22-97ad-899b17235130_def

Agriculture is estimated to be the direct driver for around 80% of deforestation worldwide. In Latin America, commercial agriculture is the main direct driver, responsible for 2/3 of all cut forests, while in Africa and tropical Asia commercial agriculture and subsistence agriculture both account for one third of deforestation. Mining, infrastructure and urban expansion are important but less prominent drivers worldwide.

Degradation of forest means a decrease in quality of forest, and is in over 70% of cases caused by (commercial) timber extraction and logging activities in Latin America and tropical and sub-tropical Asia.

figure_5.4.1.a.png

figure_5.4.1.c.png

deforestation-causes-effects-and-solutio

Edited by gendao

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14 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Yeah . The 'advanced' tag , in this case, was the old 'Empire expansionist theory' , what  the 'advancement' was supposed to be was 'Pharaonic   culture or system '  ... a system of regulation, or rule . .

 

A 'cross cultural influence' nowadays might be a better term .  Or something borrowed from one culture into another that caused changes in it

 

 

 

Ah yes .  Aside from it being a basic stable shape based on a square room / base . ......  ( here is another one ... why did all these people, all over the world ,  start building square room shelters , usually, after round shelters became 'unfashionable ' ? 

 

Here is a hint , go and do some building yourself,  hands on, through the whole project . I have , both round and square and in (hint) different materials . 

 

 

End of the Ice Age ? 

 

 

Going back to the Gobekli Tepe thing, it would seem that the first stone structures were round and not houses or forts etc. (assuming for a moment they were 'first' in some sense) and linked with early agriculture i.e. sowing of naturally wild grasses.  If the buildings were for 'ritual' purposes (I know this doesn't mean anything as a phrase but maybe we could say not functional in a material sense) - then it does suggest that the movement from pure hunter gatherer to settled communities was at least in part due to a change in how humans conceived of themselves and their purpose in life.  It suggests this to me in any case :)

 

Following on from this - I can't quite accept the purely practical reason for square based pyramid structures - although yes, I guess its true that this is probably the easiest way to construct a stable, large artificial hill.  But the orientation, symbolism and internal structure makes them (esp. the GP) packed with meaning.  And what was happening was the rise of an elite who placed themselves at the top over the plebs - and interestingly in the case of Egypt associated this 'topness' with Horus = awareness.  This is some kind of competence hierarchy where the most competent is the one who can see the big picture - coercion as TM has pointed out is certainly the method - although presumably there was some carrot as well as stick.  There is also the issue of forging identities - so even the lowly consider themselves better as part of a totemic group:

 

main-qimg-1c92158755412b70e8218484b895ce

 

the little people are kept in line!

 

 

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5 hours ago, Apech said:

This is some kind of competence hierarchy where the most competent is the one who can see the big picture - coercion as TM has pointed out is certainly the method - although presumably there was some carrot as well as stick. 

 

 

The carrot can be dispensed in the form of withdrawal of the stick for good behavior, and for someone living in fear of the cruel efficiency of the stick after it has been demonstrated well enough and often enough, it's carrot enough.  A question from a short story by Nabokov comes to mind -- "what runs faster, great fear or great desire?.."  On the conceptual level, the 'awareness" counterpart comes in the form of the religious carrot and stick -- heaven and hell.  It's anybody's guess what drives the most obedient religiousnik through the ages, fear of hell or hope for paradise.  They are two sides of the same coin.     

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2 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

The carrot can be dispensed in the form of withdrawal of the stick for good behavior, and for someone living in fear of the cruel efficiency of the stick after it has been demonstrated well enough and often enough, it's carrot enough.  A question from a short story by Nabokov comes to mind -- "what runs faster, great fear or great desire?.."  On the conceptual level, the 'awareness" counterpart comes in the form of the religious carrot and stick -- heaven and hell.  It's anybody's guess what drives the most obedient religiousnik through the ages, fear of hell or hope for paradise.  They are two sides of the same coin.     

 

Also presumably for those who manage to climb the slippery pyramid - life is sweet.

 

I would also say, without wishing to sound too spooky, that there is a lot of very ancient magic encoded into pyramids and the like, they are not (only) instruments of oppression.

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2 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Also presumably for those who manage to climb the slippery pyramid - life is sweet.

 

I would also say, without wishing to sound too spooky, that there is a lot of very ancient magic encoded into pyramids and the like, they are not (only) instruments of oppression.

 

Yes, I know there's a lot of magic encoded in the pyramids.  Technology too.  Laws of nature too.  Actually, magic is technology based on the knowledge of laws of nature -- of the kind that aren't accessible to "objective" science and can't be revealed to a non-participant, not just because of secrecy surrounding them but because "skin in the game" is one of those laws.  Those who climbed the pyramid had to climb, they couldn't get anywhere by "observing." 

 

Benevolence is not one of the laws though.  It can be magical, imbued with supreme knowledge, but wisdom and benevolence are not prerequisites.  It can be evil magic.  Evil technology.  Something like the nuclear bomb, a rather magical thing with no wisdom and no benevolence built in. 

 

I judge the tree by the fruit it bears.  It may look majestic but if you see it poison the land it grows on, it makes me wonder about whoever planted it.  Or erected or slapped together with knowledge of the laws of nature not revealed to the powerless.  

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2 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Yes, I know there's a lot of magic encoded in the pyramids.  Technology too.  Laws of nature too.  Actually, magic is technology based on the knowledge of laws of nature -- of the kind that aren't accessible to "objective" science and can't be revealed to a non-participant, not just because of secrecy surrounding them but because "skin in the game" is one of those laws.  Those who climbed the pyramid had to climb, they couldn't get anywhere by "observing." 

 

Benevolence is not one of the laws though.  It can be magical, imbued with supreme knowledge, but wisdom and benevolence are not prerequisites.  It can be evil magic.  Evil technology.  Something like the nuclear bomb, a rather magical thing with no wisdom and no benevolence built in. 

 

I judge the tree by the fruit it bears.  It may look majestic but if you see it poison the land it grows on, it makes me wonder about whoever planted it.  Or erected or slapped together with knowledge of the laws of nature not revealed to the powerless.  

 

 

In what sense do pyramids poison the land they grow on?

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

In what sense do pyramids poison the land they grow on?

 

 

 

I know you're not American but have you seen a dollar bill?

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17 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I know you're not American but have you seen a dollar bill?

 

That's Freemasonariness ... Egypt suffers from a great deal of back projection.

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20 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

That's Freemasonariness ... Egypt suffers from a great deal of back projection.

 

Have you been to Washington, D.C.?  St.Petersburg, Russia?  Talk about back projection.  Freemasonariness itself is one of the fruits, not the only one, but surprisingly prominent -- or maybe not surprisingly.  

 

A pyramid is an object and a symbol.  There's been a lot of speculations about what it is as an object, but what it is as a symbol is pretty clear methinks.  Hierarchical vertical power, resting on the foundation of squashed underdogs.  That's the poisonous fruit I was talking about.    

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42 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Have you been to Washington, D.C.?  St.Petersburg, Russia?  Talk about back projection.  Freemasonariness itself is one of the fruits, not the only one, but surprisingly prominent -- or maybe not surprisingly.  

 

A pyramid is an object and a symbol.  There's been a lot of speculations about what it is as an object, but what it is as a symbol is pretty clear methinks.  Hierarchical vertical power, resting on the foundation of squashed underdogs.  That's the poisonous fruit I was talking about.    

 

yep I've been to Washington, DC. - a very sterile place I thought, too much design and not organic growth.  And indeed that is one thing a pyramid might stand for but not the only one.

 

 

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