Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

[Nungali]

I was just discussing bronze age imports and exports elsewhere ;  eg lapis went from  BMAC (Afghanistan) ended up in Egypt , etc  but what did they get in return .   While explaining some things I put some pictures of artifacts up ... and then noticed something curious .

 

Ceremonial axe -   Sumer ;

 

a natural enough scene  - lion gets the pig  .....    or does it represent something else ?   Two 'things' opposed  or in conflict ?

 

 

BMAC ceremonial axe ;

 

' Come on you two !  Break it up !

( the two headed bird man seemed  a common motiff in BMAC  .   Also in  Pisdadian mythology - transition from BMAC to YAZ cultures  -  it is described as  a   fair and just rule , more egalitarian  and people from other places migrated to live there becasue of this  ... it seems they considered it less oppressive .

[Nungali]

and the BMAC    ' wild man  '   seals

 

 

 

https://www.academia.edu/40111402/Some_thoughts_about_the_wild_haired_snake-man_on_BMAC-seals

[Apech]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

and the BMAC    ' wild man  '   seals

 

 

 

https://www.academia.edu/40111402/Some_thoughts_about_the_wild_haired_snake-man_on_BMAC-seals

 

 

Reminded me of the IVC seals - is there a connection?

[Nungali]

Yes . There is also the 'passport seal'  as they call it  - IVC seal on one side and BMAC seal on the other .  Found near Shortugai, I think

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortugai

Edited February 17, 2020 by Nungali

[Taomeow]

 

And I was reminded of Scythian artifacts:

 

 

 

And tattoos:

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

U7 in Rostov Scythians

 

I found it quite interesting that in terms of mtDNA, the Rostov Scythians studied by der Sarkissian resembled closely the Shugnans of Tajikistan, who speak an eastern Iranian language. The author finds links between the Scythians and the "Central Asian Corridor", in particular with respect to mtDNA haplogroup U7.

This "Central Asian Corridor" sensu der Sarkissian (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India) seems to touch Frachetti's Inner Asian Mountain Corridor (shown below) in the region of the Pamirs.

 

Interestingly, the Sughnans belong, anthropologically to the Pamir-Ferghana type, which was also called Central Asian interfluvial type, the rivers in question being the Oxus and Jaxartes (Amu Darya and Syr Darya). And, of course, between these two rivers was the heartland of the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex, which I have previously linked with the Indo-Iranians.

 

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html

[Nungali]

 

A little off topic , so 

 

Spoiler

 

 

I found an  interesting early connection with China  ,   re my  Avestan     ' ancient original homeland ' ;  Airyanum Vaeja / Shamballa in the Pamir Mts  and their influence in BMAC , and their early incursions ( trade ? )  and contact into areas we now know as 'China' .   BMAC language is as yet 'unknown' ,   yet ;

 

In 2001, archaeologists found a thumbnail-size stone object from Bactria Margiana inscribed with three or four red symbols that may be an ancient form of writing. The symbols are different from those used in the writing of Mesopotamia, Iran and the Indus Valley. The scientists speculate the object may have been a seal, with a measure of units of grain, and was used in the accounting of commodities as was the case with seals in Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley. [Source: New York Times]

The symbols resemble an ancient form of Chinese writing that was used until about 200 B.C. A similar-sized seal found in Xinjiang, dated to the Han Period (206 B.C. to A.D. 9) has almost identical symbols. If there is a link between the newly-discovered symbols and the ancient Chinese writing it suggests that the Chinese writing was influenced by the writing of Turkmenistan’s ancient civilization.

The verdict is still out on whether the symbols are a true writing based on a spoken language. Critics claim the symbols are simply too limited to link them with a language. Dr. Fredrik T. Hiebert of the University of Pennsylvania, one the discoverer of the inscription, told the New York Times, “What is super significant to me, this is the first time that three or four signs have been found in relation to each there this long ago in Central Asia. At some basic level, this seems to be writing. These are not just a series of random signs, potter’s marks or decorations. Of course, with only one seal, it is premature to talk about how it was used, what the symbols meant or what kind of language it was.”

http://factsanddetails.com/central-asia/Central_Asian_Topics/sub8_8a/entry-4497.html#chapter-5

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

U7 in Rostov Scythians

 

I found it quite interesting that in terms of mtDNA, the Rostov Scythians studied by der Sarkissian resembled closely the Shugnans of Tajikistan, who speak an eastern Iranian language. The author finds links between the Scythians and the "Central Asian Corridor", in particular with respect to mtDNA haplogroup U7.

This "Central Asian Corridor" sensu der Sarkissian (Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, India) seems to touch Frachetti's Inner Asian Mountain Corridor (shown below) in the region of the Pamirs.

 

Interestingly, the Sughnans belong, anthropologically to the Pamir-Ferghana type, which was also called Central Asian interfluvial type, the rivers in question being the Oxus and Jaxartes (Amu Darya and Syr Darya). And, of course, between these two rivers was the heartland of the Bactria Margiana Archaeological Complex, which I have previously linked with the Indo-Iranians.

 

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html

 

 

I'm a bit lost on the timeline but is it possible that the BMAC are displaced IVC peoples???

[Nungali]

Heirbert and others show a development  from Kopet Dag  or , if elsewhere ;  Jiroft  -  in artefacts and style  that was refined in BMAC . Also archaeology shows a movement out of  'dry farming' in Kopet Dag foothills to the nearby eastern Oasis  and a transition to irrigation .

 

IVC influence /  outpost / 'trading post'       went as far as Shortugai  near the lapis lazuli  mines .

 

Some say a 'Proto-Elamite'  Influence , but that is hard to track down .   Also remember that BMAC went through  various stages of development  , and being on a trade cross roads had a lot of various cultural and technological influences  that they developed int their own 'style'  . .

[Taomeow]

 Fishing in Sahara!  Feasting on fish -- that's how the inhabitants of that moist fertile land lived until 5,900 years ago...

 

"Archaeologists have previously found evidence that for much of the early Holocene period (around 10,200 to 8,000 years ago) the Tadrart Acacus mountains in the Saharan Desert was humid with many permanent bodies of water.

“It is hard to say how much water was there,” said Prof Savino di Lernia, the lead author of the study along with Prof Wim Van Neer. “During the early Holocene there were permanent water bodies with plenty of fish, but things changed around 5,900 years ago, with the onset of present desert conditions.”

 

What an interesting timeline for the "onset" of those conditions if we recall that this is within a small margin of error (a couple hundred years, give or take) of the time agriculture, cities, civilization, out of fucking nowhere like David Hasselhof, graced the region with their sudden appearance.  

 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/early-humans-feasted-on-fish-in-the-sahara-desert-10000-years-ago/

[Taomeow]

 

“Gilgamesh, where are you hurrying to? You will never find that life for which you are looking. When the gods created humans they allotted to them death, but life they retained in their own keeping. Humans are born, they live, then they die, this is the order that the gods have decreed. But until the end comes, enjoy your life, spend it in happiness, not despair. Savor your food, make each of your days a delight, bathe and anoint yourself, wear bright clothes that are sparkling clean, let music, joy and dancing fill your house, love the child who holds you by the hand, and make your lover happy in your embrace. That is the best way for a human to live.”
―  The Epic of Gilgamesh

 

 

[Nungali]

Well, that sounds a LOT better  than  " fear God "  .  (it also sounds like the 'religion of Nuit '  )

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Well, that sounds a LOT better  than  " fear God "  .  (it also sounds like the 'religion of Nuit '  )

 

Crowley was very aware of taoism.  Where this idea is central, and even immortalists were not all after actual god-like immortality but invariably after healthy and contented longevity, living out the full span of one's human years enjoying family and friends, good food, all things nature, all the simple pleasures of life. 

 

The disturbing part of the quote though is this imposition of death on humans by gods who don't choose it for themselves nor let humans choose. 

 

So Laozi's "followers of death" are merely obeying the will of the gods?..  And "followers of life," the immortalists, are the taoist insurrection!     

[Nungali]

I think the imposition of death from the Gods is a farce .   Look at nature , what is immortal , look at humans , they are a part of nature , so why should they be immune to death ?

 

Besides, the 'Gods' are immortal because they are not 'life'  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces , not having mortality.  

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

I think the imposition of death from the Gods is a farce .   Look at nature , what is immortal , look at humans , they are a part of nature , so why should they be immune to death ?

 

Besides, the 'Gods' are immortal because they are not 'life'  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces , not having mortality.  

 

 

 

Actually, there's quite a few biologically immortal species in nature.  Turritopsis dohrnii, also known as the immortal jellyfish, 

is an example, and in general, if we don't insist on associating immortality with "complex" animals, it's fairly widespread.  And there's nothing to stop the gods from saying no specifically to complex animals, including their human pets.  How natural is nature?  How unnatural is the unnatural?  I had a very mind-opening discussion once with a taoist in China regarding the grey zones of this inquiry, but I don't want to interfere with my own thread by "going there" right now.

 

Your second paragraph is an article of faith.  

[gendao]

Well, some would say that immortality/life is the ability to retain all your memory and remember all of your past lives with each reincarnation.  Or essentially, you are extremely psychic and all of your subconscious is conscious.

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, gendao said:

Well, some would say that immortality/life is the ability to retain all your memory and remember all of your past lives with each reincarnation.  Or essentially, you are extremely psychic and all of your subconscious is conscious.

 

 

OR , some indigenous not plagued with  obsessive ideas about  'the self' , individuality, ego, etc   see something similar to waht you describe, as 'awareness' back through a sting of ancestors .

 

probably accessed via    'genetic consciousness' ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-circuit_model_of_consciousness#7._(Leary)The_neurogenetic_circuit_(Wilson)The_morphogenetic_circuit[39][40]

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Actually, there's quite a few biologically immortal species in nature.  Turritopsis dohrnii, also known as the immortal jellyfish, 

is an example, and in general,

 

Yes, thats the 'theory'  ; " Theoretically, this process can go on indefinitely, effectively rendering the jellyfish biologically immortal,^[3][7] although in practice individuals can still die. "

 

and ;   " This definition of immortality has been challenged in the Handbook of the Biology of Aging,^[1] because the increase in rate of mortality as a function of chronological age may be negligible at extremely old ages, an idea referred to as the late-life mortality plateau. The rate of mortality may cease to increase in old age, but in most cases that rate is typically very high."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality

 

I suppose if they really where immortal , the Gods that cursed life with death must have missed the  jellyfish ?

 

 

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

if we don't insist on associating immortality with "complex" animals, it's fairly widespread.  And there's nothing to stop the gods from saying no specifically to complex animals, including their human pets.  How natural is nature? 

 

I'd say  nature is natural .   But thats just me .

 

 

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

How unnatural is the unnatural?

 

I would say  'pretty unnatural ' .   Human head trips unrelated to any process in nature seem unnatural to me . 

 

 

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

  I had a very mind-opening discussion once with a taoist in China regarding the grey zones of this inquiry, but I don't want to interfere with my own thread by "going there" right now.

 

 

Spoiler

put it in a box 

 

 

16 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Your second paragraph is an article of faith.  

 

As is  the idea of ;   ' this imposition of death on humans by gods who don't choose it for themselves nor let humans choose.  '

[Taomeow]

33 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I'd say  nature is natural .   But thats just me .

 

I used to think it's as simple as that too. 

 

A dam built by beavers is natural...  A monkey crushing a nut with a stone is natural...  A dog though?  Is a dog natural?..

 

And if it is, what makes it natural, considering it wasn't created by nature, but by human intervention into the fate of some wolves?  And if a dog is unnatural, how do we know if we ever lose information about early domestication -- say civilization collapses radically, taking all dogs with it (e.g. starving survivors eat their pets to extinction, or else an epidemic does them in) and a few thousand years later history that included dogs in it is forgotten?  To the same extent history is forgotten by now from the time of that Gilgamesh quote? 

 

Were there gods?  You confidently say "no."  Were there dogs?  Ask mainstream-educated posterity five thousand years from now and you might be surprised. "Dogs...  animals who lived with people, in their homes, and obeyed their commands?  Ridiculous."   They are "not 'life'  they are concepts, ideas  and forces, not having mortality." --© Nungali  

 

 

[Nungali]

Yes, a dog is natural . It fulfils my definition in that ,  they are comparable to to things or processes in nature ; the thing is canidae,  the process is  symbiosis    and the  development ( of BOTH   dog and human )  is  similar to  the process observed in  ethnobotany -  man developed and changed many plants , but in that process plants , their usage and effects , have  contributed to the development of modern man . 

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/653816?seq=1

 

Regarding the 'disappearance of dogs '  ;

 

Mainstream-educated posterity five thousand years from now   will probably have access to even more fossil dogs than we do today .

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/18/15992572/dog-genetics-archaeology-fossils-evolution-domestication-wolves

 

I tried looking up  fossils of the Gods  .... but no, not even an angel fossil .

 

 

- and by the way ,  I never said what you attribute to me ;  "     Were there gods?  You confidently say "no."  "

 

What I DID say was ;   " the Gods are immortal " . I also said  "  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces "    I also said that the Gods  are ; " not having mortality" - meaning  'immortal' . 

 

- Cant see me  " confidently saying "     ' There where no Gods'   there anywhere  at all   .   

[Nungali]

Anyway, back on topic   (sort of )   I have been talking with Dan Howard, an Aussie historian and author  and thought to post one of his comments here , on the subject if the  development of agriculture

 

" Yep. It was a gradual spiral. Initially, your gardens acted as a supplement to your other food sources. You think that they are pretty cool so start to clear more land for more gardens. Then you notice that there are unwanted plants growing in your gardens so think that instead of clearing more land, you just have to pull out all the weeds to make room for more of your own plants. Instead of being able to wander from place to place, you now have to stay around to keep the gardens weeded. But your population is growing so you eventually need to clear more land anyway and keep those weeded too. After a while you notice that your yields are starting to decline so pack up camp and move to a new location and start all over again. Then you notice that the plants grow better in places that have recently had a bushfire or had a bunch of animals come through and crap everywhere. So you start burning your fields after harvest and send the kids out to collect all the animal manure they can find. Now your plants are growing so well that the birds come to eat all the seeds you sowed and the local animals come around to eat the ripening crops before you get a chance to harvest them. So you put up fences and get the kids to chase away the birds. Then a rival tribe stumbles upon your gardens and steals all your food during the night. So you replace the fences with walls, post sentries, and build silos to keep your harvest inside the walls. Then you discover that those walls are stopping a lot of rainfall runoff so you have to divert water from the river to irrigate your crops. Then you discover that those irrigation channels silt up so have to be kept clear. So finally things are running smoothly and a plague of locusts swarm your fields and eat everything. When this happened before you could just move on to another area but now there are rival tribes in your way with their own gardens. You have been trading with them for a while so help each other out until next harvest. To stop another shortage you build bigger storage silos to store more food from the next harvest. But rodents find those silos and clean out your supplies of food and seed for next year. Now you go back to your neighbours and ask for help but the rodents ate their food too so they don't have any extra to trade. So your only options now are to steal their food or starve. But that tribe has been making weapons so that they can come and steal your food. So now you start raiding each other's land. You need more fighting men, some to leave at home for defence and some to take on raids. This goes on for a while but your population is still growing. You need more land for more farms. But all the land is occupied with rival tribes and their own farms. So now, instead of raiding, you plan to attack and stay there, subjugating that tribe and taking over their land. And they want to do the same to you. So you need more fighting men and you need them to train and patrol, which means that they can't feed themselves. So you smack around your farmers to make them give you some of their food. Now you need even more fighters so they can deal with both the enemy tribes and to keep your own people in line. This can't go on so you invent a religion that convinces your people that suffering is good and that their trials in this world are needed for them to have a great time in the afterlife. So now they not only have to give food to the fighters, but they also have to give food to the priests... " 

- Dan Howard .

 

....  then eventually

 

     

                                                                                                                                 (plastic veggie 'tunnels')

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Nungali

[Apech]

On 2/26/2020 at 3:43 AM, Nungali said:

I think the imposition of death from the Gods is a farce .   Look at nature , what is immortal , look at humans , they are a part of nature , so why should they be immune to death ?

 

Besides, the 'Gods' are immortal because they are not 'life'  they are  concepts, ideas  and forces , not having mortality.  

 

 

 

deserves its own thread ... though I would say people these days have fallen into the idea that 'ideas' are dead abstract things with no energy of their own - also the modern mind while being comfortable with physical processes, abstract thought and some concept of the absolute, will run a mile at any thought of entities or intelligences in this universe.

[Taomeow]

12 hours ago, Nungali said:

Anyway, back on topic   (sort of )   I have been talking with Dan Howard, an Aussie historian and author  and thought to post one of his comments here , on the subject if the  development of agriculture

 

" Yep. It was a gradual spiral. Initially, your gardens acted as a supplement to your other food sources. You think that they are pretty cool so start to clear more land for more gardens. Then you notice that there are unwanted plants growing in your gardens so think that instead of clearing more land, you just have to pull out all the weeds to make room for more of your own plants. Instead of being able to wander from place to place, you now have to stay around to keep the gardens weeded. But your population is growing so you eventually need to clear more land anyway and keep those weeded too. After a while you notice that your yields are starting to decline so pack up camp and move to a new location and start all over again. Then you notice that the plants grow better in places that have recently had a bushfire or had a bunch of animals come through and crap everywhere. So you start burning your fields after harvest and send the kids out to collect all the animal manure they can find. Now your plants are growing so well that the birds come to eat all the seeds you sowed and the local animals come around to eat the ripening crops before you get a chance to harvest them. So you put up fences and get the kids to chase away the birds. Then a rival tribe stumbles upon your gardens and steals all your food during the night. So you replace the fences with walls, post sentries, and build silos to keep your harvest inside the walls. Then you discover that those walls are stopping a lot of rainfall runoff so you have to divert water from the river to irrigate your crops. Then you discover that those irrigation channels silt up so have to be kept clear. So finally things are running smoothly and a plague of locusts swarm your fields and eat everything. When this happened before you could just move on to another area but now there are rival tribes in your way with their own gardens. You have been trading with them for a while so help each other out until next harvest. To stop another shortage you build bigger storage silos to store more food from the next harvest. But rodents find those silos and clean out your supplies of food and seed for next year. Now you go back to your neighbours and ask for help but the rodents ate their food too so they don't have any extra to trade. So your only options now are to steal their food or starve. But that tribe has been making weapons so that they can come and steal your food. So now you start raiding each other's land. You need more fighting men, some to leave at home for defence and some to take on raids. This goes on for a while but your population is still growing. You need more land for more farms. But all the land is occupied with rival tribes and their own farms. So now, instead of raiding, you plan to attack and stay there, subjugating that tribe and taking over their land. And they want to do the same to you. So you need more fighting men and you need them to train and patrol, which means that they can't feed themselves. So you smack around your farmers to make them give you some of their food. Now you need even more fighters so they can deal with both the enemy tribes and to keep your own people in line. This can't go on so you invent a religion that convinces your people that suffering is good and that their trials in this world are needed for them to have a great time in the afterlife. So now they not only have to give food to the fighters, but they also have to give food to the priests... " 

- Dan Howard .

 

....  then eventually

 

     

                                                                                                                                 (plastic veggie 'tunnels')

 

 

This is the kind of explanation that projects the state of mind of a civilized person onto the happenings of long ago.  Yes, if our early hunter-gatherer ancestors were clueless dimwits, they would indeed start "noticing" all of a sudden, after not noticing shit about their environment for two million years, some linear cause-effect steps -- while failing to notice any connection of those steps to anything else they affect, while suddenly becoming oblivious to the web of interconnected ecological dependencies in their environment.  Yes, they would all all of a sudden develop tunnel vision of late-stage capitalism, and the psychology of a narrow specialist. 

 

And it's as unrealistic as the pictures "history" schoolbooks (whose real genre is "soft fantasy" -- as opposed to "hard sci-fi" of academic works) paint for us, of hunter-gatherers dying in droves in their 20s from disease (where would it come from -- the nearby airport bringing tourists from another continent, suddenly dragging in a strain the local cavemen have no immunity to?..), accidents (as though they could possibly be as clumsy in their environment as we are), animal attacks (as though animals who don't attack humans even when starving today unless completely painted into the corner by them had nothing better to eat among the staggering abundance of prey and would somehow choose to hunt for predators -- and make no mistake, we've always been predators, not helpless softies -- we hunt in packs and we are extremely good at it, even without weapons... but that, for another post perhaps).  

Edited February 27, 2020 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Apech said:

 

deserves its own thread ... though I would say people these days have fallen into the idea that 'ideas' are dead abstract things with no energy of their own

 

Thank you !  You seem to understand   .      The same has happened with 'imagination' .

 

I have explained some things ( in Daimonic Realty  Theory)  as a function of imagination .  Peeps protest ;  " IT ISNT  only the imagination !   " 

 

But they dont realise the potential and effect the imagination has , they see it as some type of 'fantasy daydream '   / hallucination , etc .   NOT as a component of a 'third reality ' .  

 

 

18 hours ago, Apech said:

- also the modern mind while being comfortable with physical processes, abstract thought and some concept of the absolute, will run a mile at any thought of entities or intelligences in this universe.

 

Indeed .    There are a few good exceptions though , like Dr VanDusen . 

 

Or Carl Sagan  .....   or     Gene Roddenberry      

[Apech]