Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

[old3bob]

10 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Yes -- I didn't know there's visions, I do know there's stories and some circumstantial evidence.  I've read a couple of books on Lemuria, including the original 1926 one, by James Churchward -- "The Lost Continent of Mu."

 

Well if you are interested here is Hindu related link where you can download a pdf file/book called "Lermurian Scrolls" (visions) 

 

https://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/lemurian-scrolls

[KuroShiro]

On 8/29/2019 at 3:57 AM, Taomeow said:

The term a-nun-na-ke-ne in the Sumerian language, what we pronounce "annunaki," is translated as "the Seed of the Master."  This term was used as a compound name for a number of gods varying from 7 to 600, depending on the source and period -- and they were worshipped for two and a half thousand years.  When the posterity and collaborators of the original 7 were included, the Seed of the Master referred to the mighty god Ninurta and his pals, all posterity of An (or Anu) and his son Enlil, the God of Influences (in modern times coyly translated as "winds"), and Enki (later Ea to Akkadians), the God of Water, knowledge, creation, mischief and deceit.  

 

Apparently the annunaki encountered competition later (in the second millenium B.C.) from the Babylonian "Master gods," called i-gi-gi-ne.  It's somewhat unclear who these new Masters were and what their status was, since some sources assert the igigi were masters over the annunaki themselves, while others argue that they were their servants.  

 

This is how the annunaki were typically depicted at the time.  (The one entry in the middle where someone wrote "Equador" needs further investigation -- the attribution appears to be false, even though the plumed thingies looking very similar are all over the pre-Inca and pre-Maya artifacts of South America I've seen with my own eyes in the museums of Peru, but I wouldn't vouch for this particular one that it's from the same source.)  It is interesting to note the repeating details -- wings, a bracelet with a disc on the wrist, the bucket and the pine cone which apparently is dipped into the bucket and then...  Well, don't ask me, my take is faaaaar oooooout...    

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 8/29/2019 at 3:57 AM, Taomeow said:

Well, don't ask me, my take is faaaaar oooooout... 

 

I'd love to hear it. Did you already write it in this thread? I don't remember reading it.

[KuroShiro]

On 8/29/2019 at 12:05 PM, Apech said:

Some people have compared the 'handbags' to these carvings at Gobekli Tepe:

 

 

but others have suggested that these are symbols for sunrise/sunset.

 

 

 

 

Strasbourg, France:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by KuroShiro

[Nungali]

Strasborg France video  ^    .....    well, now I'm convinced  .       

 

"  His hand bag   -   my hand bag   "  . . . . . .   " its 'electronic'   "      .....   " thats why there is a pyramid behind it . "   .....   " the Nazis  "  ...    " it isnt a coincidence - its a big  'electronic story '   "  .....  " if you imagined there was a big swastika in the middle, okay then, we are still in the Third Reich . " 

 

 

where do you get this stuff !  

 

..... Oh God !  The other two vids are by the same guy !

 

The third one is good though  - no verbals  .

 

 

.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Nungali

[Apech]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Strasborg France video  ^    .....    well, now I'm convinced  .       

 

"  His hand bag   -   my hand bag   "  . . . . . .   " its 'electronic'   "      .....   " thats why there is a pyramid behind it . "   .....   " the Nazis  "  ...    " it isnt a coincidence - its a big  'electronic story '   "  .....  " if you imagined there was a big swastika in the middle, okay then, we are still in the Third Reich . " 

 

 

where do you get this stuff !  

 

Suddenly it all clicks into place.

[Nungali]

49 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Suddenly it all clicks into place.

 

 

 

I  imagined a swastika  at the end of your post .

 

Are you a secret  electronic handbag Nazi  ?

 

 

here is an anti-Nazi handbag 

 

Spoiler

 

[Apech]

Now let's follow the science (as the current phrase goes):

 

 

[Nungali]

He is amusing , isnt he  ?   *

 

Dr   Dilley's   theory was very interesting !  Just one thing about him though .....  I thought , if his eyes keep doing that , sooner or later I am going to see a 'reptilian eye lens '  slide across     

 

from 9 : 40     to  10 : 10  

 

 

 

*

 

Spoiler

at least watch the first 2 minutes  

 

" I am just a guy sitting on a rock  ... with a wicked hat . "

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

Who doesn't love a bit of Gobekli Tepe:

 

 

[Nungali]

I love a bit of GT ... but Sweatman is another story !

 

Right at the beginning his idea seems based on a false or at least 'unexplained premise' about the Pleiades .

 

he says :   " In ancient mythology the Pleiades are often  linked  strongly  ( his emphasis )   with  small birds like chicks or doves   because ....   thats how they appear in the sky  ( virtually said 'under his breath' ) . In various mythologies they are also associated with cosmic disaster , with death  and excessive warfare  darkness and extended cold periods . . . all signs they are linked to the Youger Drayas event ."

 

With no citations  Are we supposed to take that at face value ?  Lets look at some 'ancient myths' about Pleiades then ;

 

Surely most of us know the myth of the Seven Sisters  ... thats the Pleiades  and certainly the most popular one , yes in  its Greek form they change to doves , thats  one correlation to the above  .

 

The Seven Sisters are also known as the ‘Water Girls’ or the ‘Ice Maidens’, due to their association with water, be it seas, rivers, rain, hail, snow, ice or frost .  I say its a bit of a stretch to link that to " In various mythologies they are also associated with cosmic disaster , with death  and excessive warfare  darkness and extended cold periods'   actually the younger DRYAS  where  DRYER   , so these sisters being associated with water could indicate the opposite of a Younger Drya  association   

 

And he says they are associated with birds  because thats how they appear in the sky  ???   The association is because ; " To protect them from Orion’s relentless amorous advances, Zeus changed them into a flock of doves ."

 

" For millennia the Seven Sisters of the Pleiades, immortalised in the famous Pleiades star cluster, have been objects of wonder and fascination across the globe. They have been the subject of myths and legends in almost every culture on the planet. Tales of the Seven Sisters have been passed on by word of mouth, and through poetry, art, music and architecture, by Greeks, Aborigines, Chinese, Native Americans, Egyptians, Persians, Indians and Polynesians, to name but a few. "

 

Native Americans

 

the Kiowa tribe were moving south for the winter, when they camped by a stream where there were many bears. One day, seven young girls were playing further along the stream when suddenly some of the bears began to chase them. The frightened girls leapt onto a small rock and asked the Great Spirit to protect them.

 

The Great Spirit heard the girls’ cries and made the rock grow upwards, with almost vertical sides, taking the girls with it, and leaving the bears unable to reach them. The bears however continued to claw away at the rock, leaving deep scratch marks and making it grow even taller, pushing the seven little girls into the stars.

 

The Western Mono Indians believed the Pleiades stars represented a group of wives who were excessively fond of eating onions and were thrown out of their homes by angry husbands! Repenting in their loneliness, the husbands sought out their wives, but in vain. They had wandered into the sky and become stars.

 

To the Blackfoot tribes of Alberta and Montana, the stars were known as The Orphan Boys. The fatherless boys were rejected by their tribe but were befriended by a pack of wolves. Saddened by their lonely lives on earth, they asked the Great Spirit to let them play together in the sky. As a reminder of their cruelty in contrast to the kindness of animals, every night the tribe were afflicted by the howling of the wolves that pined for their lost friends.

Aboriginal Legends

Aboriginal tribes from the Northern Territories call the Seven Sisters the ‘Yunggarmurra Water Girls’. The sisters are regarded as the beholders of beauty and possess the magic of love. Their father, whom they called Dunia, was transformed into a crocodile to stop his incestuous ways. The Aborigines also believe that the stars wear a crystal covered ‘coat’ which explains why they shine so brightly.

The Hindu Legend

The Pleiades are collectively known in India as Krittika, the wives of the seven wise men named the ‘Seven Rishis’ or ‘Seven Sages’, or the six mothers of the war god Murugan who developed six faces, one for each of them.

 

(here we have a single war reference )

Japan’s Six Sisters

The Pleiades in Japanese culture are known as ‘Subaru’ and are usually referred to as being seven stars. ‘Subaru’ also means ‘unite’ or ‘unity’ in Japanese. However, when the car company Subaru chose the name for their business, they decided to depict only six stars in the company logo, supposedly because only six of the stars are visible to the naked eye.

 

" cosmic disaster , with death  and excessive warfare  darkness and extended cold periods " ? ? ?

 

 

 

Oh yeah .... and only 6 girls are visible with the 'naked eye ' . Even  during much more recent times in Japan ; 

In Japan, the constellation is mentioned under the name Mutsuraboshi ("six stars") in the 8th-century Kojiki "

 

So, how did the G.T.ians see 7 ?

 

and 2 birds means Pisces ???   "Pisces has two fish . "   These aint fish they are birds ... but there are two of them, so must be pisces .... whaaaat ?   Are we also assuming the GTians mapped clusters and asterisms in the same groups we do ?

 

Now there are 3 birds ... but lets break them up into 2 groups ... one group of two , and two birds are Pisces  (    ) and the other one  probably represents Pleiades , as there is one of them . (   WTF ?     ) .... " which therefore links them to the Younger Dryas impact " 

 

Doesnt this seem obvious crap ?   He changes boundaries and associations as he sees fit to support hos cart that is before his horse .

Regarding Sweatman's constellational correlations :

 

" In the new article, Sweatman decries the mainstream understanding of astronomical history and insists (to use his favorite verb of negative connotation) that Mesopotamian constellations are only the latest possible origin point, suggesting that we are justified in believing constellations to date back 10,000 or more years further. It is not impossible that some constellations might have persisted in a general way over time, but examining just the differences between the Babylonian constellations and their adaptation into the Greek system (where they seem to have merged with earlier Mediterranean astronomical systems) clearly shows that there are enormous burdens to overcome in proving that constellations remained unchanged for longer than any other piece of knowledge in human history. Nor does Sweatman explain why Göbekli Tepe would have the same constellations as Babylon, given that other ancient cultures of the Near East such as Egypt had very different star groupings. "

 

Sweatman has a lot of weird things to say about constellations. He claims that for 30,000 years, down to around 9,000 BCE  Cancer the Crab was seen as a cat and Capricorn as a bull. Therefore, by adjusting the zodiac to match his preferences, he can produce any results  he wants .

 

Sweatman's current claims ;   now see Göbekli Tepe as a “university” teaching a “revolutionary” agricultural lifestyle to, basically, everyone in Europe, eastern Africa, and the western two-thirds of Asia:

 

" For the agricultural revolution their religion inspired was propelled across the Eurasian continent and into North Africa. In fact, according to the Nostratic hypothesis, Göbekli Tepe likely represents the origin of a lifestyle and language that most of the world now adopts. It appears to have inspired ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, as well as Europe and east Asia, including India. From these regions, most of the world’s current languages and customs derive " 

 

[ The key words there are the “Nostratic hypothesis,” a controversial linguistic hypothesis that holds that all of the language families from the Indo-European, Dravidian, Kartvelian, Afro-Asiatic and a few others share a common ancestor in the Fertile Crescent around the end of the last Ice Age. Most mainstream scholars of comparative linguistics do not endorse this hypothesis because it involves several layers of speculation, which can induce numerous errors -    several layers of speculation, which can induce numerous errors seem something Sweatman and his pal Graham Handcock specialise in  ( that and book sales  )

 

he seems to have missed this point :   It’s also worth noting that there is no evidence that Göbekli Tepe was a centre for agriculture in the first place . The archaeological evidence speaks to a hunter-gatherer society.

 

" All told, Sweatman appears not to have listened to his critics (who were legion in 2017). Instead of doing more work to prove his original (and dubious) hypothesis, he has instead taken it for proven and has expanded it beyond what any reasonable evaluation of evidence could support. He should fit right in on the History Channel and on the fringe history circuit."

 

And also ... the whole idea about Younger Dryas isnt actually Sorted out  ... see the vid in my above post in the hide box .

[Apech]

49 minutes ago, Nungali said:

I love a bit of GT ... but Sweatman is another story !

 

Right at the beginning his idea seems based on a false or at least 'unexplained premise' about the Pleiades .

 

he says :   " In ancient mythology the Pleiades are often  linked  strongly  ( his emphasis )   with  small birds like chicks or doves   because ....   thats how they appear in the sky  ( virtually said 'under his breath' ) . In various mythologies they are also associated with cosmic disaster , with death  and excessive warfare  darkness and extended cold periods . . . all signs they are linked to the Youger Drayas event ."

 

With no citations  Are we supposed to take that at face value ?  Lets look at some 'ancient myths' about Pleiades then ;

 

Surely most of us know the myth of the Seven Sisters  ... thats the Pleiades  and certainly the most popular one , yes in  its Greek form they change to doves , thats  one correlation to the above  .

 

The Seven Sisters are also known as the ‘Water Girls’ or the ‘Ice Maidens’, due to their association with water, be it seas, rivers, rain, hail, snow, ice or frost .  I say its a bit of a stretch to link that to " In various mythologies they are also associated with cosmic disaster , with death  and excessive warfare  darkness and extended cold periods'   actually the younger DRYAS  where  DRYER   , so these sisters being associated with water could indicate the opposite of a Younger Drya  association   

 

And he says they are associated with birds  because thats how they appear in the sky  ???   The association is because ; " To protect them from Orion’s relentless amorous advances, Zeus changed them into a flock of doves ."

 

" For millennia the Seven Sisters of the Pleiades, immortalised in the famous Pleiades star cluster, have been objects of wonder and fascination across the globe. They have been the subject of myths and legends in almost every culture on the planet. Tales of the Seven Sisters have been passed on by word of mouth, and through poetry, art, music and architecture, by Greeks, Aborigines, Chinese, Native Americans, Egyptians, Persians, Indians and Polynesians, to name but a few. "

 

Native Americans

 

the Kiowa tribe were moving south for the winter, when they camped by a stream where there were many bears. One day, seven young girls were playing further along the stream when suddenly some of the bears began to chase them. The frightened girls leapt onto a small rock and asked the Great Spirit to protect them.

 

The Great Spirit heard the girls’ cries and made the rock grow upwards, with almost vertical sides, taking the girls with it, and leaving the bears unable to reach them. The bears however continued to claw away at the rock, leaving deep scratch marks and making it grow even taller, pushing the seven little girls into the stars.

 

The Western Mono Indians believed the Pleiades stars represented a group of wives who were excessively fond of eating onions and were thrown out of their homes by angry husbands! Repenting in their loneliness, the husbands sought out their wives, but in vain. They had wandered into the sky and become stars.

 

To the Blackfoot tribes of Alberta and Montana, the stars were known as The Orphan Boys. The fatherless boys were rejected by their tribe but were befriended by a pack of wolves. Saddened by their lonely lives on earth, they asked the Great Spirit to let them play together in the sky. As a reminder of their cruelty in contrast to the kindness of animals, every night the tribe were afflicted by the howling of the wolves that pined for their lost friends.

Aboriginal Legends

Aboriginal tribes from the Northern Territories call the Seven Sisters the ‘Yunggarmurra Water Girls’. The sisters are regarded as the beholders of beauty and possess the magic of love. Their father, whom they called Dunia, was transformed into a crocodile to stop his incestuous ways. The Aborigines also believe that the stars wear a crystal covered ‘coat’ which explains why they shine so brightly.

The Hindu Legend

The Pleiades are collectively known in India as Krittika, the wives of the seven wise men named the ‘Seven Rishis’ or ‘Seven Sages’, or the six mothers of the war god Murugan who developed six faces, one for each of them.

 

(here we have a single war reference )

Japan’s Six Sisters

The Pleiades in Japanese culture are known as ‘Subaru’ and are usually referred to as being seven stars. ‘Subaru’ also means ‘unite’ or ‘unity’ in Japanese. However, when the car company Subaru chose the name for their business, they decided to depict only six stars in the company logo, supposedly because only six of the stars are visible to the naked eye.

 

" cosmic disaster , with death  and excessive warfare  darkness and extended cold periods " ? ? ?

 

 

 

Oh yeah .... and only 6 girls are visible with the 'naked eye ' . Even  during much more recent times in Japan ; 

In Japan, the constellation is mentioned under the name Mutsuraboshi ("six stars") in the 8th-century Kojiki "

 

So, how did the G.T.ians see 7 ?

 

and 2 birds means Pisces ???   "Pisces has two fish . "   These aint fish they are birds ... but there are two of them, so must be pisces .... whaaaat ?   Are we also assuming the GTians mapped clusters and asterisms in the same groups we do ?

 

Now there are 3 birds ... but lets break them up into 2 groups ... one group of two , and two birds are Pisces  (    ) and the other one  probably represents Pleiades , as there is one of them . (   WTF ?     ) .... " which therefore links them to the Younger Dryas impact " 

 

Doesnt this seem obvious crap ?   He changes boundaries and associations as he sees fit to support hos cart that is before his horse .

Regarding Sweatman's constellational correlations :

 

" In the new article, Sweatman decries the mainstream understanding of astronomical history and insists (to use his favorite verb of negative connotation) that Mesopotamian constellations are only the latest possible origin point, suggesting that we are justified in believing constellations to date back 10,000 or more years further. It is not impossible that some constellations might have persisted in a general way over time, but examining just the differences between the Babylonian constellations and their adaptation into the Greek system (where they seem to have merged with earlier Mediterranean astronomical systems) clearly shows that there are enormous burdens to overcome in proving that constellations remained unchanged for longer than any other piece of knowledge in human history. Nor does Sweatman explain why Göbekli Tepe would have the same constellations as Babylon, given that other ancient cultures of the Near East such as Egypt had very different star groupings. "

 

Sweatman has a lot of weird things to say about constellations. He claims that for 30,000 years, down to around 9,000 BCE  Cancer the Crab was seen as a cat and Capricorn as a bull. Therefore, by adjusting the zodiac to match his preferences, he can produce any results  he wants .

 

Sweatman's current claims ;   now see Göbekli Tepe as a “university” teaching a “revolutionary” agricultural lifestyle to, basically, everyone in Europe, eastern Africa, and the western two-thirds of Asia:

 

" For the agricultural revolution their religion inspired was propelled across the Eurasian continent and into North Africa. In fact, according to the Nostratic hypothesis, Göbekli Tepe likely represents the origin of a lifestyle and language that most of the world now adopts. It appears to have inspired ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt, as well as Europe and east Asia, including India. From these regions, most of the world’s current languages and customs derive " 

 

[ The key words there are the “Nostratic hypothesis,” a controversial linguistic hypothesis that holds that all of the language families from the Indo-European, Dravidian, Kartvelian, Afro-Asiatic and a few others share a common ancestor in the Fertile Crescent around the end of the last Ice Age. Most mainstream scholars of comparative linguistics do not endorse this hypothesis because it involves several layers of speculation, which can induce numerous errors -    several layers of speculation, which can induce numerous errors seem something Sweatman and his pal Graham Handcock specialise in  ( that and book sales  )

 

he seems to have missed this point :   It’s also worth noting that there is no evidence that Göbekli Tepe was a centre for agriculture in the first place . The archaeological evidence speaks to a hunter-gatherer society.

 

" All told, Sweatman appears not to have listened to his critics (who were legion in 2017). Instead of doing more work to prove his original (and dubious) hypothesis, he has instead taken it for proven and has expanded it beyond what any reasonable evaluation of evidence could support. He should fit right in on the History Channel and on the fringe history circuit."

 

And also ... the whole idea about Younger Dryas isnt actually Sorted out  ... see the vid in my above post in the hide box .

 

You need to watch his other vids to get his whole theory - this vid is really just an addendum.

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Apech said:

 

You need to watch his other vids to get his whole theory - this vid is really just an addendum.

 

Yeah, except what I wrote about is not based just on 'this addendum' . 

 

if you can direct me to 'his other vids'   where he explains these obvious discrepancies  and  where he addresses the original criticisms of 2017 on his original hypothesis , I will gladly view it .  

 

I have watched a few , you realise ?  Which also showed similar discrepancies and other problems  , which I highlighted some of previously  and they where not addressed either  eg (GT is dated  at the END of the  Younger Dryas , nit as Sweatman dates them  ( hear it on podcast by a researcher who works there  ( see link below -  from 8:30  )   .  But hey, if it supplies a 'good read'  for people  .... enjoy . 

 

The issues summarised :

 

https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2017/07/03/more-than-a-vulture-a-response-to-sweatman-and-tsikritsis/

 

The excavation team  and research staff view  (remember,  Sweatman and partner are engineering people , why not listen to the actual accredited people working their who are actually working within their professional  fields )  ;

 

https://tepetelegrams.wordpress.com/2017/04/21/archaeoastronomy-meteor-showers-mass-extinction-what-does-the-fox-say-and-what-the-crane-the-aurochs/comment-page-1/

 

& 

 

https://www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com/pseudo/73

 

 

.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Nungali

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Yeah, except what I wrote about is not based just on 'this addendum' . 

 

if you can direct me to 'his other vids'   where he explains these obvious discrepancies  and  where he addresses the original criticisms of 2017 on his original hypothesis , I will gladly view it .  

 

I have watched a few , you realise ?  Which also showed similar discrepancies and other problems  , which I highlighted some of previously  and they where not addressed either  eg (GT is dated  at the END of the  Younger Dryas , nit as Sweatman dates them  ( hear it on podcast by a researcher who works there  ( see link below -  from 8:30  )   .  But hey, if it supplies a 'good read'  for people  .... enjoy . 

 

The issues summarised :

 

https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/2017/07/03/more-than-a-vulture-a-response-to-sweatman-and-tsikritsis/

 

The excavation team  and research staff view  (remember,  Sweatman and partner are engineering people , why not listen to the actual accredited people working their who are actually working within their professional  fields )  ;

 

https://tepetelegrams.wordpress.com/2017/04/21/archaeoastronomy-meteor-showers-mass-extinction-what-does-the-fox-say-and-what-the-crane-the-aurochs/comment-page-1/

 

& 

 

https://www.archaeologypodcastnetwork.com/pseudo/73

 

 

.

 

I am not a particular adherent of Sweatman and I do think he makes some mistakes.  But I like his analytic and statistical approach and that he is at least a 'proper' scientist.  He has done a very long series reviewing every published paper on the Younger Dryas impact theory which although very dry are worth watching.  Most of the criticisms you linked to are very amateurish - for instance saying the GT monuments were probably roofed so no good as an observatory - he doesn't claim they were observatories.  If you take his basic claim that much of neolithic art is related to the stars I think that has some merit - or at least consideration.

 

 

[Nungali]

 I certainly  think a lot of neolithic culture  and pre-neolithic culture is related to the stars  .  The night sky is part of 'the world'  ... well, that was the view down here .

 

I am not sure why you see the   Gobleki Tepe    professional  researcher's criticisms as " very amateurish " . 

 

The tepe telegrams site is from the research team .   One curious dynamic is their work is mostly ignored ; all the research, data , statistics etc put together and published their own theories , yet Sweatman's is the popular one  

 

Anyway, that last reference in my last post is  a podcast and is very interesting to listen to  .

Edited October 25, 2020 by Nungali

[Apech]

17 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 I certainly  think a lot of neolithic culture  and pre-neolithic culture is related to the stars  .  The night sky is part of 'the world'  ... well, that was the view down here .

 

I am not sure why you see the   Gobleki Tepe    professional  researcher's criticisms as " very amateurish " . 

 

The tepe telegrams site is from the research team .   One curious dynamic is their work is mostly ignored ; all the research, data , statistics etc put together and published their own theories , yet Sweatman's is the popular one  

 

Anyway, that last reference in my last post is  a podcast and is very interesting to listen to  .

 

From your link:

 

 

1. There still is quite a significant probability that the older circular enclosures of Göbekli Tepe’s Layer III actually were subterranean buildings – possibly even covered by roof constructions. This then somehow would limit their usability as actual observatories a bit.

 

As I said above he is not saying they are observatories - but this argument could be made about the Denderah ceiling or cave paintings - or indeed anything like a planetarium - all indoors and not with visible sky - so I call this argument amateurish.

 

2. Even if we assume that the night sky 12,000 years ago looked exactly like today’s, the question at hand would be whether a prehistoric hunter really would have put together the very same asterisms and constellations we recognise today (most of them going back to ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, and Greek scholars and descriptions)?

 

He's not assuming it looked identical he uses star map software which shows the night sky as it was on selected date e.g. 10,000 BC or whatever - another amateurish argument.  The constellations are almost self selecting especially if used for solstice/equinox mapping - names and animal symbols will change and in fact Sweatman does this - but the basic star patterns remain substantially the same.

 

3. Contrary to the article’s premise the unearthed features at Göbekli Tepe are not  shrouded in mystery. Published over the last years and decades, there is ample scientific literature available which unfortunately did not find its way into the study. The  specific animals depicted in each enclosure’s iconography for instance seems to follow a certain intention, emphasizing different species in different enclosures. A purely  substitutional interpretation ignores these more subtle but significant details. This also can be demonstrated for instance with the headless man on the shaft of Pillar 43, interpreted as symbol of death and mass extinction in the paper – however silently omitting the emphasised phallus in the same depiction which somehow contradicts the lifeless notion and implies a much more complex narrative behind these reliefs. There are even more reliefs on both narrow sides of P43 which went conpletely uncommented here.

 

I agree with this comment - the headless man with erect phallus seems to echo cave paintings and I am almost certain if it is an asterism it is Orion - not as Sweatman gives it.  I agree he should have considered and addressed the research of others but he has jumped in with his own hypothesis - which must be rather annoying.  However that's no reason to reject everything he says - this would repeat his own mistake.

 

4. It also seems a bit arbitrary to base this interpretation (and all its consequences as described in the paper) on what seems to be some randomly selected pillars and their iconography (the interpretation thus not covering “much of the symbolism of Göbekli Tepe” as stated in the paper, but merely the tip of that iceberg). In the meantime more than 60 monumental T-pillars could have been unearthed in the older Layer III – many of these showing similar reliefs of animals and abstract symbols, a few even as complex as Pillar 43 (like Pillar 56 or Pillar 66 in enclosure H, for example). And it does not end there: the same iconography is prominently known also from other find groups like stone vessels, shaft straighteners, and plaquettes – not only from Göbekli Tepe, but a variety of contemporary sites in the wider vicinity.

 

I'm not sure this is reasonable - the symbolism on Pillar 43 is what it is - regardless of what else is there.  They are doing to Sweatman what they do to others - that is more of a discounting exercise than a refutation.  If they are the experts they could provide the counter interpretation.

 

 

[Nungali]

55 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

From your link:

 

 

1. There still is quite a significant probability that the older circular enclosures of Göbekli Tepe’s Layer III actually were subterranean buildings – possibly even covered by roof constructions. This then somehow would limit their usability as actual observatories a bit.

 

As I said above he is not saying they are observatories - but this argument could be made about the Denderah ceiling or cave paintings - or indeed anything like a planetarium - all indoors and not with visible sky - so I call this argument amateurish.

 

So you are saying it all ' representational ' ?  I will take your view on this as  you appear to have read a lot more Sweatman than I have .   By being representational , I mean as in the examples you gave . By being observational we encounter things like one stone lining up with another , a stone supposedly marking a position by sighting with a star or asterism on the horizon or elsewhere in the sky , by sighting through a hole in a rock to the sky etc .    Sweatman does NOT include those things in developing his theory ?

 

2. Even if we assume that the night sky 12,000 years ago looked exactly like today’s, the question at hand would be whether a prehistoric hunter really would have put together the very same asterisms and constellations we recognise today (most of them going back to ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, and Greek scholars and descriptions)?

 

He's not assuming it looked identical he uses star map software which shows the night sky as it was on selected date e.g. 10,000 BC or whatever - another amateurish argument. 

 

This part is addressed in  the podcast , the research scientists from GT corrects another  and says that the stars DID look pretty much the same back then, with a slight variation, probably unnoticeable . (What does change , as your probably know, is the star arrangements and positions stay the same but their times of appearance in the sky in relation to seasonal markers does change over time  - precession , but this does not effect how the arrangement of an asterism looks  or their relationship to one another ) . But thats not the point of this passage     note the  "even if "  part .  So, we can say the  ' even if ' is supported  and can change it to an 'although' , the real issue becomes ;

 

Although  the  night sky 12,000 years ago looked (nearly ) exactly like today’s, the question at hand would be whether a prehistoric hunter really would have put together the very same asterisms and constellations we recognise today (most of them going back to ancient Egyptian, Babylonian, and Greek scholars and descriptions)?

 

IF this  is confusing it explains further in the podcast .   For example   people used to include Libra as part of Scorpio ('s claws ) now Scorpio is declawed .  Orion down here is 3 men in a canoe and does not include the other stars we associate with Orion. The issue is  why would GTians group the stars into the same asterisms we do ?  It might be obvious with Orions belt  for example, but whether the stars around that are included or not is more arbitrary . The Pleiades  are an obvious cluster , and thats probably why its recognised as an asterism cross culturally , but not all cultures use it as part of the constellation  of Taurus  or even have a constellation of Taurus  nor draw the stars of Taurus  together in a constellation.

 

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The constellations are almost self selecting especially if used for solstice/equinox mapping - names and animal symbols will change and in fact Sweatman does this - but the basic star patterns remain substantially the same.

 

What do you mean by  (in light of what I just wrote above )   The constellations are almost self selecting  ? 

 

yes the basic star patterns remain the same  in the sky    BUT   the way we divide them up and connect them into asterisms and constellations is what is changing culturally  (not cosmically ) , basically ; why should they 'join the dios' the same way people did in different cultures 1000s of years later ?   That is the criticism , not that the actual star patterns changed .

 

or did I misread you  ?

 

 

 

 

 

3. Contrary to the article’s premise the unearthed features at Göbekli Tepe are not  shrouded in mystery. Published over the last years and decades, there is ample scientific literature available which unfortunately did not find its way into the study. The  specific animals depicted in each enclosure’s iconography for instance seems to follow a certain intention, emphasizing different species in different enclosures. A purely  substitutional interpretation ignores these more subtle but significant details. This also can be demonstrated for instance with the headless man on the shaft of Pillar 43, interpreted as symbol of death and mass extinction in the paper – however silently omitting the emphasised phallus in the same depiction which somehow contradicts the lifeless notion and implies a much more complex narrative behind these reliefs. There are even more reliefs on both narrow sides of P43 which went conpletely uncommented here.

 

I agree with this comment - the headless man with erect phallus seems to echo cave paintings and I am almost certain if it is an asterism it is Orion - not as Sweatman gives it.  I agree he should have considered and addressed the research of others but he has jumped in with his own hypothesis - which must be rather annoying.  However that's no reason to reject everything he says - this would repeat his own mistake.

 

The headless thing is very interesting .  I need to look further into it. There appears to have been some type of 'skull cult' happening there

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/3/6/e1700564

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2017/06/skulls-cult-turkey-archaeology-neolithic-gobekli/

a type of preserve the head as 'mummy' . But no bodies ?    The vulture stone could be a symbol if excarnation and they might have had something like a 'tower of silence ' operating    from where they extracted the skulls ?

 

Quote

 

4. It also seems a bit arbitrary to base this interpretation (and all its consequences as described in the paper) on what seems to be some randomly selected pillars and their iconography (the interpretation thus not covering “much of the symbolism of Göbekli Tepe” as stated in the paper, but merely the tip of that iceberg). In the meantime more than 60 monumental T-pillars could have been unearthed in the older Layer III – many of these showing similar reliefs of animals and abstract symbols, a few even as complex as Pillar 43 (like Pillar 56 or Pillar 66 in enclosure H, for example). And it does not end there: the same iconography is prominently known also from other find groups like stone vessels, shaft straighteners, and plaquettes – not only from Göbekli Tepe, but a variety of contemporary sites in the wider vicinity.

 

I'm not sure this is reasonable - the symbolism on Pillar 43 is what it is - regardless of what else is there.  They are doing to Sweatman what they do to others - that is more of a discounting exercise than a refutation.  If they are the experts they could provide the counter interpretation.

 

I thought they had ? 

What they are saying above  ( I think ? ) is  the same or similar  iconography is all over the place and in other contexts and from this they have drawn a bigger picture , not just by focusing on that one Pillar  .  I am a bit confused about  " the symbolism on Pillar 43 is what it is - regardless of what else is there."   'what else is there ' would be considered archaeological context and  it should be regarded , shouldn't it ?  'it is what it is '   is what ?   What Sweatman says it is ?  That isnt what it IS  but what Sweatman says it is . But maybe I am confused by the lingo here .

 

If they are the experts they could provide the counter interpretation.

 

^{again - check out the ' Tepe telegrams'  site}

 

https://www.dainst.blog/the-tepe-telegrams/#

 

^{or the pod cast}

Eg.

New Publication: “Ritual Practices and Conflict Mitigation at Early Neolithic Körtik Tepe and Göbekli Tepe”

Cereal processing at Early Neolithic Göbekli Tepe, southeastern Turkey

A rather odd figure: The so-called Kilisik Sculpture from Adıyaman, Turkey

 

 

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[Nungali]

Have you ever considered that the pillars and the animal depictions might be a type of  totemic ID  'Nome standard'  type of thing for the different groups involved in meeting there ?

 

            

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

@Nungali

 

I'm not here to defend Sweatman's position - he has a youtube channel with a lot of videos and book to do that.  I posted his video because I found it interesting - that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says.  That's it.  You could email him direct if you want to question his theories.

 

https://www.eng.ed.ac.uk/about/people/dr-martin-sweatman/

 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

Have you ever considered that the pillars and the animal depictions might be a type of  totemic ID  'Nome standard'  type of thing for the different groups involved in meeting there ?

 

            

 

 

 

 

 

 

They might be - but then you would have to examine why those animals were chosen and what they actually signify.

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

@Nungali

 

I'm not here to defend Sweatman's position - he has a youtube channel with a lot of videos and book to do that.  I posted his video because I found it interesting - that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says.  That's it.  You could email him direct if you want to question his theories.

 

https://www.eng.ed.ac.uk/about/people/dr-martin-sweatman/

 

 

 

Okay, I dont expect you to defend him.  I was questioning you about  the purple feedback  and statements you responded to me with  .

 

Any, here is something that I find a lot more interesting       

 

Another theory about the 'rock art ' at GT *  corresponds to   , not a theory but a recent revelation,  in Australian Gwion Gwion rock art (from its indigenous custodians - formlerly held secret and not pubic knowledge ) not only seems the same but is dated at the same era  .

 

That  is  very curious .

 

* “Markers of ‘Psychocultural’ Change. The early-Neolithic monuments of Göbekli Tepe in southeastern Turkey” (by Oliver Dietrich, Jens Notroff, Sebastian Walter, Laura Dietrich, pp. 311-332)

 

Spoiler

" The adoption of agriculture and husbandry and the shift from hunting-and-gathering to food-producing subsistence strategies in the course of the so-called Neolithization process seems to have been accompanied (and partly even preceded) by significant mental change. The sudden appearance of a variety of symbolic depictions hints at a new “psycho-cultural” mindset and a new way of viewing the world and humankind´s role in it. The oldest yet known evidence for monumental architecture was discovered at Göbekli Tepe in southeastern Turkey, created in exactly this period. The site is interpreted as a social hub for meetings and feasts of different hunter groups of the region, and its iconographic repertoire gives ample examples of this new symbolic art. The imagery of this site in particular focuses on strong and dangerous animals, apparently emphasizing ideas of death and threat. In the course of this paper it is argued that the monuments of Göbekli Tepe could have served as arenas for orchestrated rituals necessary to create and strengthen group identity and social cohesion among the early-Neolithic hunter groups at this crucial transition phase of cultural and economic change.”

 

 

 

I cant think why an impetus to  ' crucial transition phase of cultural and economic change.”  would be happening in Australia at the same time ?  Yet is recorded  Indigenous tradition and artwork .  of course down here it wasnt a prelude to a 'neolithic'  (not anything like a 'northern one' that is, nor displayed in monumental stonework) , but the most important changes where made  that resulted in the establishment of  laws and principles (and also a huge gathering of clans )  that changed indigenous culture forever  and set up a system that survived up to colonisation . "

 

( unless it was an 'astrological influence '  )

 

The  again , I cant think why Australian ingenious have a similar myth to the Greek  and other ones  regarding the Pleiades   women and water

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_astronomy#Pleiades

 

and even stranger :   when some  point to Scorpio  ( which they dont see as a scorpion , nor use all the same stars  ) they tell a story that is very scorpionic  and has many of the motifs assigned to Scorpio in their story  .

 

Thats a head scratcher .

 

All I am left with is that bit of the above  wiki article

 

..... no I'm NOT !  I just went to cite it and its been removed !  

 

It was right after  ;   " The close resemblance of this to Greek mythology is believed to be coincidental — there is no evidence of any cultural connection.^{[12] ....}

 

^{then it used to say ; " ..... however   .....    " and go on to outline how there could be old connections  where things have come from originally , further research may reveal ....} 

 

[Nungali]

I  case anyone is interested

 

GWION ARTISTS AND WUNAN LAW:

THE ORIGIN OF SOCIETY IN AUSTRALIA

 

http://www.ifrao.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/31-1-Doring.pdf

 

                                     

 

        

 

 

[ Just to give this topic reference  ... sort of ... an extract from the above paper ;

 

" 

In summary, Wunan law was brought to life by

one artist — the celebrated

munga.nunga, ('visionary / artist ' )

Wibalma.

This is probably one of the few societies in the world

that begins with an artist and not a warrior, king,

queen or warlord. The ‘artist-visionary’ Wibalma

created a sacred object of Justice as the catalyst to

inspire an enduring social order under law — Wunan.

The Ngarinyin evidence should be acknowledged

as the basis for a new paradigm in the disciplines

of art history, archaeology and anthropology, and

indeed Australian History (Glowczewski 1988, 2013;

Glowczewski and Henry 2011). "

Edited October 26, 2020 by Nungali

[Apech]

@Nungali

 

I've looked at some of those papers/articles you linked to.  What strikes me is how similar this kind of analysis is to early 20th Egyptology - where everything was reduced to socio-cultural or political symbolism.  For instance the great Kurt Sethe was convinced that the Pyramid Texts related to tribal struggles for kingship in the Old Kingdom and so on.  No-one as far as I know thinks this way any more - as the Egyptologists in those days even went as far as to say that the Egyptians had no spiritual life and were all practicality and down to earth - even when Classical literature says the complete opposite.  

 

So for instance, when looking at the totemic symbols for different tribal groups - or hunter groups - no thought is given to the idea that these are shamanic tutelary spirits.  That the coming together of certain spirits (with astral associations) may have special significance.  In other words they look at the world as if magic doesn't exists.  As DBs we should be sceptical of this, I think.

 

The thing about the zodiac signs is not that precisely the same stars were always selected for each grouping - but that the groupings were used to divide the visible sky into twelve parts (arcs) - which has both symbolic and practical purposes.  I don't have any trouble thinking that more or less the same approach has been used by mankind way back into the mesolithic - and so the same/or broadly similar star patterns would be used to plot  out the night sky.

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

@Nungali

 

I've looked at some of those papers/articles you linked to.  What strikes me is how similar this kind of analysis is to early 20th Egyptology - where everything was reduced to socio-cultural or political symbolism.  For instance the great Kurt Sethe was convinced that the Pyramid Texts related to tribal struggles for kingship in the Old Kingdom and so on.  No-one as far as I know thinks this way any more - as the Egyptologists in those days even went as far as to say that the Egyptians had no spiritual life and were all practicality and down to earth - even when Classical literature says the complete opposite.  

 

So for instance, when looking at the totemic symbols for different tribal groups - or hunter groups - no thought is given to the idea that these are shamanic tutelary spirits.  That the coming together of certain spirits (with astral associations) may have special significance.  In other words they look at the world as if magic doesn't exists.  As DBs we should be sceptical of this, I think.

 

The thing about the zodiac signs is not that precisely the same stars were always selected for each grouping - but that the groupings were used to divide the visible sky into twelve parts (arcs) - which has both symbolic and practical purposes.  I don't have any trouble thinking that more or less the same approach has been used by mankind way back into the mesolithic - and so the same/or broadly similar star patterns would be used to plot  out the night sky.

 

Thats sort of what I meant  when I asked you about Nome standards , maybe I should have said 'the God or the spirit of the tribe or group'  ... relating to a special animal .   I just assume 'spiritual connections' myself .   Meaning that if I saw a group of tribal people with a  standard of an  eagle , and maybe  tattoos of eagle, and eagle bone necklaces , etc .  I would assume the spirit  connection    , that their shaman and others  would have connection to eagle spirit ... maybe can 'become' an eagle , would have eagle traits and protections by eagles , etc    .   But that could be a base assumption I have due to my experience with the indigenous here and their concepts of totems .     But still, the  spiritual level of a totem does branch out into cultural and social  symbolism   , probably  NOT into political  symbolism and certainly not into  struggles for kinship .

 

So I guess my question could be , do you think the pillars (or some of them )  might represent ' shamanic tutelary spirits'  of the tribes that gathered there  ?

 

 

 

 

'Predecessor ' ?

 

[Apech]

@Nungali

 

Yes - I think that is exactly what they are.  Though what is interesting is why pillars like 43 have such a collection of figures.  The pillars themselves are beings - gods perhaps - but when you get a pattern of images I think the intention must be to tell a story of some kind - a narrative ... simply because they are obviously pointing to the relationship between the figures and hence 'meaning' of some kind.  You could almost say a hieroglyphic text.  Whether this is stellar stuff I don't really know but its quite likely - a lot of early religion seems to be star related (based on my limited knowledge) - and is later brought down to the human level later.

 

I was interested to read that the round structures were accompanied by smaller square structures - which show more evidence of things like food preparation (grinding of flour etc.).  What I don't quite understand is why they built so many round structures over a long period of time.

 

I was mentally considering what the archeologists describe as the social hub function of GT - and I thought about a Medieval Cathedral -  a large stone structure surrounded by smaller structures (used for various purposes like selling food and so on) where people would assemble periodically to worship - but no-one would say that the primary function of building a Cathedral was as a social hub - more that this is a byproduct of its primary function.  So to for GT.  Also the distinction of sacred and secular is pretty much a modern invention which surely would not apply to ancient peoples.

 

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

@Nungali

 

Yes - I think that is exactly what they are.  Though what is interesting is why pillars like 43 have such a collection of figures.  The pillars themselves are beings - gods perhaps - but when you get a pattern of images I think the intention must be to tell a story of some kind - a narrative ... simply because they are obviously pointing to the relationship between the figures and hence 'meaning' of some kind.  You could almost say a hieroglyphic text.  Whether this is stellar stuff I don't really know but its quite likely - a lot of early religion seems to be star related (based on my limited knowledge) - and is later brought down to the human level later.

 

 

 

Yeah !   To all of that .

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

I was interested to read that the round structures were accompanied by smaller square structures - which show more evidence of things like food preparation (grinding of flour etc.).  What I don't quite understand is why they built so many round structures over a long period of time.

 

Food preparation and  grinding stones  also feature  at the Gwion Gwion center in Australia at the same time period . Both isolated people seem to  have been  experimenting with different ways of food production, especially regarding grinding grain  in larger quantities and more efficient processes .

 

I think I read tha some of the grinding stuff at GT showed signs of ocher ?  That was also definitely the case here as well .

 

I like the concept of GT being a type of center that different people met in for a variety of yet interconnected purposes ,  ( like the site in Australia and also perhaps Stonehenge ) but as you point out ,  there are so many of them about . 

 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

I was mentally considering what the archeologists describe as the social hub function of GT - and I thought about a Medieval Cathedral -  a large stone structure surrounded by smaller structures (used for various purposes like selling food and so on) where people would assemble periodically to worship - but no-one would say that the primary function of building a Cathedral was as a social hub - more that this is a byproduct of its primary function. 

 

I imagine all sorts of other functional spaces are required  for a  'stay  over ' with  groups of people traveling and meeting there . Even if it never happened , it would be needed for the constructions of the places . 

 

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

So to for GT.  Also the distinction of sacred and secular is pretty much a modern invention which surely would not apply to ancient peoples.

 

 

Agreed . That also applied down here  .... heaven on earth , the Garden of Eden , ( before whitefellah showed up ) you come from earth, live on earth and 'go back to earth'  

 

- even the stars are part of earth ...          like a big cave , long time ago , spirit ancestor painted them pictures up there on it .