Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

[Nungali]

Laughing at it does not address any of the points bought up . ... oh , thats right , you no longer  have the time or inclination to address it .

 

[Taomeow]

19 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Please demonstrate how the scholars involved in the development of AMT (around the world)  are 'commies' . Otherwise, what you wrote is  right wing conspiracy BS .

 

And earlier you said that he "called you out" somehow personally and put the word "commies" in huge red for anyone who may have missed it -- so I went back and re-read what dwai wrote in case I missed it and found no such thing.  He presents two views.  One of the Nationalists and the other of their opposition -- Western scholars and Indian commies.  It's not "right wing conspiracy bullshit."  It's the description of the scene one side of which you may consider "right wing conspiracy bullshit" if you like -- but considering all nationalists right wing and all their complaints about the legacy of colonialism made-up conspiracy theories is left wing bullshit.  Just because certain bullshit is left wing doesn't signal enough virtue for it to be exempt from bullshit designation. 

 

Anti-colonialist and anti-globalist sentiments can be exploited, it's true, and they are readily exploited by the right wing movements, that's also true.  But it doesn't mean on autopilot that anyone who happens to share anti-colonialist and/or anti-globalist sentiments is right wing or a bullshitter. 

   

Please be more reasonable.  Let's talk fact, fiction, hypothesis -- even mistake -- without dispensing labels onto whoever presents any that are not mere spam, trolling or suchlike.    

Edited December 8, 2019 by Taomeow

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

It is a cop out and it is covered by more bunk . Aryan 'race' is BS . What has been looked at is Aryan CULTURE and I can put up evidence to show from archaeology and  genetics that the people of BMAC  had a very mixed ethnic background  (and I use those  words as there is no such thing as 'race'. )

 

ONE meaning that came to develop , mostly in the Indian branch, does mean  'noble'  but it isnt the only meaning. At different times and places, sub-sets of Arya had various meanings for the word .  Again, in archaeology and in anthropology Aryan is a designation of a type of culture .

 

If you dont care to expend your energies on this stuff you should not have made  bias claims in the first place and  also should not have thought that calling people that ascribe to the academic view  'commies'  would be ignored.

 

What, you thought that would NOT  'call me out ' ?  Well, I am called out  and if you cant back up what you have said, I am calling YOU out for  right wing bullshit .

 

Please demonstrate how the scholars involved in the development of AMT (around the world)  are 'commies' . Otherwise, what you wrote is  right wing conspiracy BS .

 I didn’t say the “scholars” are commies. I said Indian commies jumped on that bandwagon very quickly. There is a famous university in India called the JNU, which is a breeding ground of communists and ultra-left lunatics in India, who continued to perpetrate this myth of AIT/AMT and deny traditional scholars and researchers a voice for a long time. 
 

I wish I could spend time having a discourse on this topic. But I’ve done so with hundreds of people over the past 20 yrs or so and don’t have the patience to rehash this again. 
 

I merely offered an alternative perspective with timelines. I don’t particularly care who agrees or disagrees with it. It’s a free world, believe what you must. 

Let’s talk about Sumeria now.  

[dwai]

13 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Finally we're on my turf again.   I've no idea what the Hindu national party is trying to prove, perhaps stuff similar to what all nationalist parties everywhere are always trying to prove -- vast superiority of their own over "other," toward boosting national pride, a reliable engine of distraction.  I think the term Indo-European has become controversial while I wasn't looking -- l wasn't aware of the controversy when it was part of my university course in comparative linguistics, I just studied for the tests, and when you do, you try not to worry too much about whether what you study actually exists (some of what I had to study actually didn't -- we had some funky subjects then and there...  but I suspect here and now there's even more of those non-existent sciences in existence.) 

 

But one thing I know for sure.  I don't know whether Indians migrated to Russia or vice versa (Russian nationalist parties now assert it's vice versa), but far as the language is concerned -- get this -- I understand a good deal of Sanskrit.  Which I never learned.  I understand it due to its uncanny similarity to Russian.  Not just the vocabulary for a lot of primary, basic words but the structure of the words, syntax, grammar, even style.  I have a good ear for languages in general, but I don't understand any Farsi, Kyrgyz, Tajik or Turkish or Arabic.  Sanskrit is different.  Go figure.  

It is a documented fact that some 

 Vedic sages were from the Russian region. A famous female sage (Rishika) Lopamudra being one such. 
 

I don’t think the ancient world was as isolated as most would have us believe. I mean, India had trade ties with pretty much all the civilized world - Mesopotamia, Ancient Greece, China, Egypt, etc.

 

It is really tragic to see history being weaponized — though it’s not a lone phenomenon in the case of  India by any means.

 

I know enough about the traditional material of India to know there was never any story of an Aryan invasion or any large exodus. 
 

Proper dating of the Vedic literature makes it a contemporary (and more than likely the same) as the so called ‘Indus valley civilization’.

 

In texts such as Ramayana and Mahabharata are references to multiple kingdoms and tribes who are located in West and Central Asia all the way up to Russia as part of the extended civilization itself. 
 

 

[Taomeow]

13 hours ago, Nungali said:

Oh they are similar, the question is which way the influence went .  Now, you would know as a linguist ,  about how the IE language 'net' interrelates, so if we look for the 'ripples' in that net we  come to conclusions  from all different linguistic sources, that do not  indicate Sanskrit as the root language that Influenced Russian and related languages .

 

I wasn't aware anyone asserted that.  I haven't revisited linguistics much since the days of the Grimm's Law and tracing the whole bunch to the Proto-Indo-European, not to each other.  But then I was taught linguistics by card-carrying commies.   

[Nungali]

29 minutes ago, dwai said:

 I didn’t say the “scholars” are commies. I said Indian commies jumped on that bandwagon very quickly. There is a famous university in India called the JNU, which is a breeding ground of communists and ultra-left lunatics in India, who continued to perpetrate this myth of AIT/AMT and deny traditional scholars and researchers a voice for a long time. 

 

You said ;

 

" They + Commies in India claim that the right wing Hindu nationalists are the ones with the agenda.  " and the sentence before that links these people to  AMT . I am asking you to show us these 'commies ' that support  AMT .

 

But technically I suppose you are right because a whole lot of people from various backgrounds , including Indians,  have realised and  have stated  that OIT is mostly pushed by  Hindu Nationalist Party .  So if everyone else but OIT pushers thinks this, I suppose it does include some 'commies'

 

AMT is NOT a 'myth'  what it says in the Vedas is more likely to be a myth .  Thats MORE than obvious .

 

Traditional religious scholars of Vedas should stick to their subject - religion.   And the using of  religion and scripture in 'science' is  specifically an 'Indian problem' . Actually the way Indians try to debate this issue is internationally known as 'the Indian problem' , it has to do with the way they try to debate scientifically  by using religion and scripture . The root of the 'problem' is that traditionally India  has had an  culture that blends the esoteric and exoteric , right up to the present . Western scholarship made a division between the two a few centuries back  .

 

 

29 minutes ago, dwai said:

I wish I could spend time having a discourse on this topic. But I’ve done so with hundreds of people over the past 20 yrs or so and don’t have the patience to rehash this again. 

 

And that is why I offered to direct people to the full debate  so  as not to tie this thread up with it here . The thing is, in the full debate, its soooo obvious that OIT gets absolutely slammed on multiple levels .

 

29 minutes ago, dwai said:

I merely offered an alternative perspective with timelines. I don’t particularly care who agrees or disagrees with it. It’s a free world, believe what you must. 

Let’s talk about Sumeria now.  

 

 

Good idea . What have you got to offer as an insight about Sumer ? 

[dwai]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

Good idea . What have you got to offer as an insight about Sumer ? 

Not much. That’s why I didn’t say anything about it  

 

I just found OP creation hymn similar to that in the Rig Veda. And shared, along with what I consider better dates for their creation.

Little did I know I was stepping on someone’s pet poodle here  

[Nungali]

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

It is a documented fact that some 

 Vedic sages were from the Russian region. A famous female sage (Rishika) Lopamudra being one such. 
 

I don’t think the ancient world was as isolated as most would have us believe. I mean, India had trade ties with pretty much all the civilized world - Mesopotamia, Ancient Greece, China, Egypt, etc.

 

You think right there. As time goes on and more research and results come in, this interrelationship is more revealed as time goes on. I became interested in this years back  when they  did mineral analysis on  Lapis lazuli and discovered that Lapis mined in  'Bactria' (east BMAC )   found its way  to NE Africa , Morocco  and also into this mask ;

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

It is really tragic to see history being weaponized — though it’s not a lone phenomenon in the case of  India by any means.

 

I know enough about the traditional material of India to know there was never any story of an Aryan invasion or any large exodus. 

 

Still on that , that is old school AIT has been out for ages now .  I explained the more recent and more correct view in an earlier post .

 

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

Proper dating of the Vedic literature makes it a contemporary (and more than likely the same) as the so called ‘Indus valley civilization’.

 

I keep asking this question but .....

 

Proper dating of what ?   When the texts where compiled in written books or dating from what the contents are describing ?

 

 

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

In texts such as Ramayana and Mahabharata are references to multiple kingdoms and tribes who are located in West and Central Asia all the way up to Russia as part of the extended civilization itself. 
 

 

 

Of course !    I also explained  why this is so in earlier posts - eg the IVC trading post at Shotugai in BMAC territory.  But seeing Russia as part of ancient Indian territory is putting 'the cart before the horse '   (see what I did thee     - an  IE cultural pun )  much like seeing Sanskrit as the root of all IE language .

 

But regarding this INTERCONNECTION (and not seeing it as some type of Indian Empire ) we can learn a lot about these ancient cultures and areas .

 

I have even seen a wonderful IVC and BMAC 'passport' seal ;   IVC  seal on one side and a BMAC seal on the other .

 

It is indeed an interesting debate ...  but yes, lets return to the   Sumer topic .

 

[Nungali]

49 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I wasn't aware anyone asserted that.  I haven't revisited linguistics much since the days of the Grimm's Law and tracing the whole bunch to the Proto-Indo-European, not to each other.  But then I was taught linguistics by card-carrying commies.   

 

Good !   As those Commies would never have  taught you what what dwai is   claiming  

 

Did you know Russian is a form of Sanskrit   ?     

Edited December 8, 2019 by Nungali

[Taomeow]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

Handbags!!!!!

 

Or:

 

Increasingly arid climate leads to irrigation.  Irrigation means field systems.  Field systems increase crop yields.  Increase crop yields lead to surpluses.  Surplus leads to trade.  Trade requires weights and measures.

 

It does look like a kettle bell, doesn't it?..  Maybe weighs and measures require strong folks to lift the weights and they took up exercise, with kettle bells, Russian style, and that's what is signified? -- they're going to the gym, that's what it is!   

 

Except there's also depictions that imply it's nothing of the kind.  That imply it's a bucket.  Irrigation again perhaps?  But why are they dipping the pine cone in that bucket and dousing people's heads from it, not fields of barley?..  ???

 

And then there's this problem of different sciences not communicating with each other.  Let's see...

 

Historians assert increasingly arid climate leads to irrigation and eventually agriculture. 

 

Paleontologists assert we're in the thermo interlude of the cryo era.  Agriculture is what happens in the last thermo interlude of the otherwise cryo era. 

 

Geophysicists assert increasingly arid climate is a regular feature of the cryo developments -- thermo interlude ending, ice age starting.  Ice ages are dry.  Thermo interludes are wet.  Cold brings about arid climates, heat brings about damp and wet climates.  

 

So how does arid climate descend upon the land without an ice age descending upon it?  How does it happen in the midst of the thermo period, the "fertile" one?  How does its fertility relate to its moisture? -- why directly, warm periods are moist and fertile, two sides of the same coin.  So how does a land become arid in the midst of it?

 

Two ways.  Either the thermo phase ends and the cryo era advances once again.  Did that happen in the "fertile crescent?"  Hell no.

OR

Agriculture makes it so.  Agriculture that throws off the fine balance that makes the land fertile, agriculture that destroys a few, then a few dozen, then a few hundred, then exponentially all the feedback loops between the land and its plants and animals and rivers and lakes, and starts rewriting the natural script which dictates absolute geophysical exemption of thermo periods from becoming arid.  Unless you interfere with the feedback loops. 

 

 I don't buy agriculture and its bedfellow civilization as a response to climate change -- I buy climate change as the outcome of agriculture and city-building getting in bed with each other, breeding monsters.  Beginning with the monster of desertification.  (A very local and very temporary development, the larger cycles of cryo and thermo eras of course remain unaffected.  We're still in the larger cryo era for the next couple hundred million years.  Long-playing cycles of climate on planet earth are fully yin-yang.  With a bit of yin within yang and a bit of yang within yin, otherwise...  textbook.  That's what geophysicists have found -- even though they know nothing about yin-yang dynamics.)    

Edited December 8, 2019 by Taomeow

[Nungali]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

Not much. That’s why I didn’t say anything about it  

 

 

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

 

I just found OP creation hymn similar to that in the Rig Veda. And shared, along with what I consider better dates for their creation.

Little did I know I was stepping on someone’s pet poodle here  

 

 

Oh !  I thought you got  sparked by someone treading on your OIT poodle .  

 

[Taomeow]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Not much. That’s why I didn’t say anything about it  

 

I just found OP creation hymn similar to that in the Rig Veda. And shared, along with what I consider better dates for their creation.

Little did I know I was stepping on someone’s pet poodle here  

 

I've no poodle here.  Step all you like on someone else's.  I only have a cat.     

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

Oh !  I thought you got  sparked by someone treading on your OIT poodle .  

 

Touché! 

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

There's this problem of different sciences not communicating with each other.  Let's see...

 

Historians assert increasingly arid climate leads to irrigation and eventually agriculture. 

 

Paleontologists assert we're in the thermo interlude of the cryo era.  Agriculture is what happens in the last thermo interlude of the otherwise cryo era. 

 

Geophysicists assert increasingly arid climate is a regular feature of the cryo developments -- thermo interlude ending, ice age starting.  Ice ages are dry.  Thermo interludes are wet.  Cold brings about arid climates, heat brings about damp and wet climates.  

 

So how does arid climate descend upon the land without an ice age descending upon it?  How does it happen in the midst of the thermo period, the "fertile" one?  How does its fertility relate to its moisture? -- why directly, warm periods are moist and fertile, two sides of the same coin.  So how does a land become arid in the midst of it?

 

Two ways.  Either the thermo phase ends and the cryo era advances once again.  Did that happen in the "fertile crescent?"  Hell no.

OR

Agriculture makes it so.  Agriculture that throws off the fine balance that makes the land fertile, agriculture that destroys a few, then a few dozen, then a few hundred, then exponentially all the feedback loops between the land and its plants and animals and rivers and lakes, and starts rewriting the natural script which dictates absolute geophysical exemption of thermo periods from becoming arid.  Unless you interfere with the feedback loops. 

 

 I don't buy agriculture and its bedfellow civilization as a response to climate change -- I buy climate change as the outcome of agriculture and city-building getting in bed with each other, breeding monsters.  Beginning with the monster of desertification.  (A very local and very temporary development, the larger cycles of cryo and thermo eras of course remain unaffected.  We're still in the larger cryo era for the next couple hundred million years.  Long-playing cycles of climate on planet earth are fully yin-yang.  With a bit of yin within yang and a bit of yang within yin, otherwise...  textbook.  That's what geophysicists have found -- even though they know nothing about yin-yang dynamics.)    

 

An interesting view ( this time I mean validly interesting ) .  One thing that does pop up though is 'mini cycles' ... little bumps in the graph , that do not appear to be  generated  by agriculture ;

 

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

 

Knowledge of Central Asia's climate and climate changes during the past 12,000 years can assist in an understanding of the historical periods in Central Asia. For instance, in an event called the Younger Dryas, the earth is known to have experienced a sudden cooling starting 12,800 years from the present, with the cooling lasting about 1,200 years. In addition, there is evidence of more recent and shorter cooling spells of, say, 100 years. Different regions could have experienced different degrees of change and a severe cooling event could also have been regional rather than global. If the location of Airyana Vaeja was an area like the Pamirs, a 5⁰ to 10⁰C drop in average temperatures would have been sufficient to make winter life very harsh (Vendidad, a book of the Zoroastrian scriptures, chapter 1.2 and 2.22). We are informed by the Avesta, that after the change in climate, the warm months (the rapithwan months) in Airyana Vaeja were shortened from the normal seven months to two months in duration (Vendidad 1.3, notes in Vendidad Sada and Bundahishn 25 - the warm months being those when the ground waters are cooler than the surface).

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm#jamshid

 

The reason I say your view is interesting is because i have not collated all these 'bumps' with  developments in agriculture and urbanism. if so we might see a surprising correlation .

[Nungali]

11 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I've no poodle here.  Step all you like on someone else's.  I only have a cat.     

 

I won;t be stepping on him,  he looks    .... scratchy .

[mark]

On 01/12/2019 at 9:10 PM, Taomeow said:

 

I found this about their god of the underworld (in the Ancient History Encyclopedia):

 

NERGAL - Also known as Erra/Irra, the Sumerian god of war, pestilence, destruction, death, and the underworld, co-ruler with Ereshkigal, but originally associated with Shamash, the sun god, and a solar deity. His cult center was at Kutha where he was first known as Meslamtaea, an agricultural god associated with the heat of the sun in its negative aspects. The intensity of the summer sun (or the sun at midday) was thought to be caused by Meslamtaea's fury and shifted from a regional god to a universal god associated with the negative aspects of life. Nergal is best known for insulting Namtar, Ereshkigal's representative at the feast of the gods, and having to make amends to her, resulting in their love affair and his eventual move to the underworld to live with her. In some myths he is credited with creating human beings and in incantations is invoked for protection because of his great strength. As Erra he is famous from the work The Wrath of Erra in which he destroys Babylon for no reason. 

 

How similar or dissimilar their underworld is to Diyu, I'd have to investigate.  What I do know off the top of my head is that some Sumerian afterlife beliefs were strikingly similar to those upheld to this day in many Asian cultures -- in China and (especially) non-mainland Chinese countries, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc..  They had a concept corresponding to the Chinese gui, hungry ghosts, and the same idea about how these come to be.  They are what people became after death who died prematurely, died a violent death, were poor and hungry and suffering while alive, were not buried properly, and are not fed by their descendants in a special ritual offering food, drink, incense and remembrance.  These ghosts were called gidim in Sumerian, etemmu in Akkadian.  They were feared, because they invaded the world of the living and took revenge on them if hungry and cold in afterlife, starting with their own descendants.  So feeding them was not so much in veneration as in self-preservation. 

 

Interestingly, early taoism, which found quite a few gods, ghosts and demons inside the human body and mind (not all of them were inner but some, indisputably, were) imagined "feeding the ancestors" not only as an external ritual but also as a personal choice of a diet that one's ancestors would choose.  I.e. eating only whatever is popular/readily available today was understood as a diet that can anger the "inner ancestors" and cause them to mess up one's health and shorten one's life.

 

The parallels with Hades and Persephone seem strong, aswell as a scorpio /scarab beetle theme regarding the sun. Interestingly under sidereal the sun is currently in scorpio.

 

Would it be in the interests of a force or faction to steer an invasion into the living by gui, perhaps to weaken a boundary for ulterior purposes?

[Taomeow]

On 12/9/2019 at 3:17 AM, mark said:

 

 

Would it be in the interests of a force or faction to steer an invasion into the living by gui, perhaps to weaken a boundary for ulterior purposes?

 

That's nearly a synchronicity.  I've just finished reading a work of fiction presenting that very scenario.  "The Girl with Ghost Eyes," by Matthew Boronson, set in the late 19th century Chinatown in San Francisco and featuring a Maoshan daonu (female daoshi) for the main protagonist.  (An aside: don't try to learn Maoshan magic from that book.  It's a work of fiction, not a how-to instruction manual.)  Have you read it, or did the idea occur to you independently? 

[mark]

11 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

That's nearly a synchronicity.  I've just finished reading a work of fiction presenting that very scenario.  "The Girl with Ghost Eyes," by Matthew Boronson, set in the late 19th century Chinatown in San Francisco and featuring a Maoshan daonu (female daoshi) for the main protagonist.  (An aside: don't try to learn Maoshan magic from that book.  It's a work of fiction, not a how-to instruction manual.)  Have you read it, or did the idea occur to you independently? 

 

Independently, I do practice kunlun which has Maoshan roots so that is quite interesting. That book sounds pretty cool will check it out.

 

This is sketchy but been thinking that a boundary, permeable under certain conditions e.g communicating with ancestral spirits, may have been weakened with the intent of damaging humans in some way (perhaps their 'ancestral shen').

 

I wonder if a cultivator or sorcerer, perhaps of anunnaki origin, may have pierced the veil, with the intent of possessing or dysregulating the realm of the living, possibly as an ongoing ritualistic form of 'black magic'.

 

Or maybe just the 'unnatural' outcome of other actions from back then.

Edited December 18, 2019 by mark

[welkin]

Edited June 24, 2020 by welkin

[Nungali]

No, but I will have a quick look now  .....

 

...

 

Yet again we have a modern rehash of an old racist  Empire based would- be -dominate- the -world  and everything came from our pure and wonderful race and culture .

 

Really guys ?  Really ?     

 

A thin veneer of 'spiritualism'   plastered over old school racial superiority ;

 

 

 "The historical facts recorded in the Takenouchi Documents are extraordinary. Among them are the Sumera-Mikoto came to Earth from a higher world on Ameno-ukifune, the world government was located in Japan and the Sumera-Mikoto unified the world. The great holy masters of the world, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Shakyamuni Buddha, Confucius and Lao-Tsu were born from the five-colored races which branched off from the Japanese race and all went to Japan for study and training. These facts may seem absurd and contrary to our prevailing understanding of world history. However, the archeological research of recent years has gradually revealed the true existence of ultra ancient civilizations which are all mentioned in the Takenouchi Documents.

http://www.takenouchi-documents.com/

 

"The children of the Sun God started the High Ancient Dynasty and after 8 billion years," ...   ( ! Whaaaat ! ) ...  " their sons and daughters were sent all over the world to start their own nations. In the Takenouchi documents, the account of human creation does not follow the path of evolution. Rather, it was the Gods that created humans, and the sons of Gods created five types of coloured people (white, red, blue, yellow and black) and scattered them all over the Earth. Japan became the centre of the world, from where the Gods created races and dispersed them outwards.

 

https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-folklore/takenouchi-manuscripts-and-story-humanity-never-told-001860

 

.. and so on.

[Nungali]

Especially since we all know .. everything came   Out Of India     

[Apech]

In my mythology it came to pass that a great and mighty being descended to earth in a small suberb of Cambridge, England and went on to father a generation of white cats which ruled the earth for at least 20 mins on a Tuesday in April.

[welkin]

Edited June 24, 2020 by welkin

[Taomeow]

@welkin Thanks for the link, will give a try.  @Nungali Thanks for the review,  now I don't know what to do!

 

My scaled and feathered informant who shall remain anonymous (not that I know his real name) has an interesting opinion about "the chosen people" and whoever calls themselves that or is called that by others.  He says it's legit -- but it doesn't mean "chosen" to rule, to be superior, more evolved or anything like that.  He asserts it's how god (in whatever shape or form he or she manifests) sees survivors.  Any people that manages to survive its particularly harsh history is "chosen" to keep truckin'.  Chosen=survivor against nearly insurmountable odds.  Perpetrator of evil things others had to survive=not chosen, because long term survival of perpetrators of evil goes against nature.  Nature doesn't bet on evil because evil only takes and doesn't give, and this is impossible to maintain.  Evil is not sustainable.  This doesn't mean evil can't prevail temporarily.  But long term it is not chosen.  Imagine god or nature or any such force choosing what to keep.  Something not perishable and not prone to self-destruct or destroy all around it.  That's the litmus test for a chosen people.  They survive.  By surviving they become chosen.  Is all.   That's what his people believe anyway.  They're a very old species, not benevolent, but supposedly not evil.  Although who knows.  

     

[welkin]

16 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

@welkin Thanks for the link, will give a try.  @Nungali Thanks for the review,  now I don't know what to do!

 

My scaled and feathered informant who shall remain anonymous (not that I know his real name) has an interesting opinion about "the chosen people" and whoever calls themselves that or is called that by others.  He says it's legit -- but it doesn't mean "chosen" to rule, to be superior, more evolved or anything like that.  He asserts it's how god (in whatever shape or form he or she manifests) sees survivors.  Any people that manages to survive its particularly harsh history is "chosen" to keep truckin'.  Chosen=survivor against nearly insurmountable odds.  Perpetrator of evil things others had to survive=not chosen, because long term survival of perpetrators of evil goes against nature.  Nature doesn't bet on evil because evil only takes and doesn't give, and this is impossible to maintain.  Evil is not sustainable.  This doesn't mean evil can't prevail temporarily.  But long term it is not chosen.  Imagine god or nature or any such force choosing what to keep.  Something not perishable and not prone to self-destruct or destroy all around it.  That's the litmus test for a chosen people.  They survive.  By surviving they become chosen.  Is all.   That's what his people believe anyway.  They're a very old species, not benevolent, but supposedly not evil.  Although who knows.  

     

 

Hey Taomeow, sorry i'm really not sure if this is all sarcastic lol.

 

But your scaled and feathered informant? Is that like a deity or something

 

I was actually going to say something similar in response to Nungali. The Japanese to me, have always seemed like a suffering nation. At least, for sure since the atomic bomb. But it just seems instilled in the culture. Just the idea of suffering. I've lived it, felt it, seen it in family. And i do believe that's why there is relation between the native americans, certain south american cultures and japan. There are similarities in how they view, understand, and feel things. But as far as chosen. definitely not about race or nations. so no one should feel like it's us not them or it's them not us.

 

But is this the conclusion you've drawn? i believe you mentioned the purpose of the thread was to find out how we got into this current mess. I personally believe it is  what you're saying. Which is the take take take, and not provide or give back. In the various of ways whether with people or the earth.

 

Though the main curiosity i have is what now then? What counteracts this? Does anything?

 

Or is the story of our world. the greed, the cataclysm, and the restart of life/civilization again?

 

I've experienced a lifetime of strange events this year alone, which is why i've delved deep into this. Idk if something is coming for sure or not, but it just seems that we're moving in that direction. The way this year has gone though, it seems like we don't need to know until we need to know, which has been very frustrating but necessary it seems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by welkin