Sumer: the "black-headed" vs. the "red-faced"

[Taomeow]

3 hours ago, welkin said:

 

Hey Taomeow, sorry i'm really not sure if this is all sarcastic lol.

 

But your scaled and feathered informant? Is that like a deity or something

 

 

Not sarcastic at all.  I really have an informant.  He is not a deity.  He claims to be a member of a different species, a species that had involuntary interactions with ours a long time ago because ours was being used by another one against his.  He claims he's helping us in certain realms guided by laws that have inter-worlds authority, but not for our sake.  He doesn't think highly of us and compassion is not his thing, but self-interest and the service of his own kind stacked the deck in a way that caused him to want to help us have a chance. 

I don't know if he's telling the truth.  But he says many interesting things, most of them very disturbing and some of them so obvious once you hear them -- yet I've never heard this interpretation from elsewhere -- that I can't treat him as totally full of shit.  E.g., he has a very plausible explanation for the "predictive programming" phenomenon.  He says it's a legality of the "higher law," "higher" meaning guiding the actions of heavier players than humans, not "higher" in any moral or spiritual sense.  It's a bit like a business of ours being required to announce "intent to conduct business" in a local newspaper, or a company planning to build or destroy a piece of real estate on a particular site having to notify the residents in advance.  There's no legal requirement for the announcement of intent to be very loud and clear though -- it's enough to have it mentioned, somehow, somewhere.  The equivalent of very small print -- "here's the side effects you will be experiencing because of our planned actions...  there, we've disclosed it in advance as required by law." 

 

3 hours ago, welkin said:

 

I was actually going to say something similar in response to Nungali. The Japanese to me, have always seemed like a suffering nation. At least, for sure since the atomic bomb. But it just seems instilled in the culture. Just the idea of suffering. I've lived it, felt it, seen it in family. And i do believe that's why there is relation between the native americans, certain south american cultures and japan. There are similarities in how they view, understand, and feel things. But as far as chosen. definitely not about race or nations. so no one should feel like it's us not them or it's them not us.

 

But is this the conclusion you've drawn? i believe you mentioned the purpose of the thread was to find out how we got into this current mess. I personally believe it is  what you're saying. Which is the take take take, and not provide or give back. In the various of ways whether with people or the earth.

 

Though the main curiosity i have is what now then? What counteracts this? Does anything?

 

Or is the story of our world. the greed, the cataclysm, and the restart of life/civilization again?

 

I've experienced a lifetime of strange events this year alone, which is why i've delved deep into this. Idk if something is coming for sure or not, but it just seems that we're moving in that direction. The way this year has gone though, it seems like we don't need to know until we need to know, which has been very frustrating but necessary it seems.

 

 

 

Yes, the intent is to try exploring this venue, and perhaps others too but this one for starters since it weighs heavily on my conscience that I don't have a clearer picture of that period, those players, and want to have it.  Generally, I believe nothing can be either understood or fixed without fixing our collective amnesia. 

 

There's things past I understand very well, almost as though it's some cellular, visceral knowledge, I don't need any fishing expeditions into those parts to get an idea of what that was like, I just know, the way I know where my toes are, whether I care for a cup of tea right about now, or whether I enjoy sitting in traffic when I'm late.  Then there's things past that are like a puzzle to assemble -- for some I have many pieces, nearly all, and for some, a lot of pieces are missing.  I want more pieces for this puzzle.  But I can't just stick "whatever" in a spot where a piece is missing, I'm trying to find what truly fits.  Also, I hate the picture that emerges, and I want to find hope.  Parts of the puzzle that are about hope.  But I don't cheat.  If they aren't about hope, I don't hypnotize myself into wishful thinking.  Err on the side of caution.

 

What now, what counteracts this, does anything? -- yes, those are my questions too.  I don't know.  But "I don't know" is usually the end of the story for me only if the story is of no further interest to me.  So, "I don't know but I don't want to give up yet.  If it's unknowable, prove it to me, pretzel boy, whoever you are.  And if it's not unknowable, I want to try to figure it out." 

 

The idea of suffering is something I didn't really associate with the Japanese culture, but I guess there's not too many cultures where it is not a "thing" in some shape or form.  I've encountered it elsewhere in full swing too.  Suffering as business as usual, as something to expect.  Sunrise, sunset, suffering, the way things are.  I would like to hear the Japanese side of the story if you're familiar with it from the inside. 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Taomeow

[Earl Grey]

Apech, your life sounds like you're Arthur Dent, and Taomeow, your informant sounds like a Vogon. 

[Cookie Monster]

.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Earl Grey]

12 minutes ago, Ocean Form said:

I believe the Japanese are very self aware that social expectations/norms take a heavy toll on the individual and they express this in their culture while simultaneously adhering to it... My 2 cents.

 

Spent much time studying the language, history and culture or any time in the country to reach this conclusion? 

[Cookie Monster]

.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Earl Grey]

8 minutes ago, Ocean Form said:

Not at all. I just watched the first episode of Neon Genesis Evangelion 7 years ago. 

 

"You mustn't run away, you mustn't run away..."

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Apech, your life sounds like you're Arthur Dent, and Taomeow, your informant sounds like a Vogon. 

 

Had to look up both of them -- I never finished that book and only have dim recollections.  

 

He's not a fictitious character.  But civilizations all have bureacracies, and he's civilized.  He asserts that civilization is a contagious disease spread throughout the universe, though I don't know to what extent.  Bureacracy is one of the symptoms.  Technology is another.  In the universe, nothing well-adjusted and healthy is either civilized, bureacratic, or technological, so  even though "we are not alone" (we are not, of course), it's hardly good news, because whoever we might meet who is technologically advanced enough to initiate or accept such contact is also, inevitably, bureacratic, maladapted, and messed up in the head.

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Had to look up both of them -- I never finished that book and only have dim recollections.  

 

He's not a fictitious character.  But civilizations all have bureacracies, and he's civilized.  He asserts that civilization is a contagious disease spread throughout the universe, though I don't know to what extent.  Bureacracy is one of the symptoms.  Technology is another.  In the universe, nothing well-adjusted and healthy is either civilized, bureacratic, or technological, so  even though "we are not alone" (we are not, of course), it's hardly good news, because whoever we might meet who is technologically advanced enough to initiate or accept such contact is also, inevitably, bureacratic, maladapted, and messed up in the head.

Oh, I hardly ever have reason to doubt the Tao’s Meow.  I was reminded of Adams because it seemed too good to resist the similarity, and using that, springboard into the discussion that any probe seeking intelligent life in the universe has to ask how long it will take for Earthlings until they get the point.

[Taomeow]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

how long it will take for Earthlings until they get the point.

 

He says we've got forty years left.  But, unfortunately, the only solution he knows that could save our collective ass is technological.  Too late for anything else, we need "more" of one particular kind of technology (and also to immediately drop a few others like a hand grenade with the safety pin removed) -- and a breakthrough in that one area, or else it's worse than over for us.  But I don't want to talk in riddles nor hijack my own thread.    Maybe for another one someday...    

[welkin]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Not sarcastic at all.  I really have an informant.  He is not a deity.  He claims to be a member of a different species, a species that had involuntary interactions with ours a long time ago because ours was being used by another one against his.  He claims he's helping us in certain realms guided by laws that have inter-worlds authority, but not for our sake.  He doesn't think highly of us and compassion is not his thing, but self-interest and the service of his own kind stacked the deck in a way that caused him to want to help us have a chance. 

I don't know if he's telling the truth.  But he says many interesting things, most of them very disturbing and some of them so obvious once you hear them -- yet I've never heard this interpretation from elsewhere -- that I can't treat him as totally full of shit.  E.g., he has a very plausible explanation for the "predictive programming" phenomenon.  He says it's a legality of the "higher law," "higher" meaning guiding the actions of heavier players than humans, not "higher" in any moral or spiritual sense.  It's a bit like a business of ours being required to announce "intent to conduct business" in a local newspaper, or a company planning to build or destroy a piece of real estate on a particular site having to notify the residents in advance.  There's no legal requirement for the announcement of intent to be very loud and clear though -- it's enough to have it mentioned, somehow, somewhere.  The equivalent of very small print -- "here's the side effects you will be experiencing because of our planned actions...  there, we've disclosed it in advance as required by law." 

 

 

Yes, the intent is to try exploring this venue, and perhaps others too but this one for starters since it weighs heavily on my conscience that I don't have a clearer picture of that period, those players, and want to have it.  Generally, I believe nothing can be either understood or fixed without fixing our collective amnesia. 

 

There's things past I understand very well, almost as though it's some cellular, visceral knowledge, I don't need any fishing expeditions into those parts to get an idea of what that was like, I just know, the way I know where my toes are, whether I care for a cup of tea right about now, or whether I enjoy sitting in traffic when I'm late.  Then there's things past that are like a puzzle to assemble -- for some I have many pieces, nearly all, and for some, a lot of pieces are missing.  I want more pieces for this puzzle.  But I can't just stick "whatever" in a spot where a piece is missing, I'm trying to find what truly fits.  Also, I hate the picture that emerges, and I want to find hope.  Parts of the puzzle that are about hope.  But I don't cheat.  If they aren't about hope, I don't hypnotize myself into wishful thinking.  Err on the side of caution.

 

What now, what counteracts this, does anything? -- yes, those are my questions too.  I don't know.  But "I don't know" is usually the end of the story for me only if the story is of no further interest to me.  So, "I don't know but I don't want to give up yet.  If it's unknowable, prove it to me, pretzel boy, whoever you are.  And if it's not unknowable, I want to try to figure it out." 

 

The idea of suffering is something I didn't really associate with the Japanese culture, but I guess there's not too many cultures where it is not a "thing" in some shape or form.  I've encountered it elsewhere in full swing too.  Suffering as business as usual, as something to expect.  Sunrise, sunset, suffering, the way things are.  I would like to hear the Japanese side of the story if you're familiar with it from the inside. 

 

This is pretty heavy stuff.

 

His claim about the multiple species and how it's a battle between those entities who are enslaving humans and them is very similar to a lot of pseudo/conspiracy ideas. So nothing too out of the ordinary here, within context of course.

 

 

If it's not too much to ask,

 

Did he mention how he wanted to help us have a chance? Against what, catastrophe?

 

could you describe just a few of the things he finds disturbing?

 

As for the predictive programming. I've been following a specific video made 7 years ago called I pet goat 2. Which i'll explain all the events in a separate thread. But in it, they are literally predicting almost everything that occurred this year.

 

It's hard to describe it without sounding like their morals are better or superior. And of course not everyone is this way. But from i sense and understand, i associate the suffering more with not sacrificing certain core values in order to gain. Things such as not stepping on another's foot to move up. Or sacrificing oneself for the better of the rest. Not giving into the same patterns of thoughts and perspectives of others in order to compete.

 

It's very hard to explain for me right now, since i'd have to really think about the smallest of details. Because what i mentioned above happens on many more micro actions. It's way of thinking and perspective as a whole. Like even though my family comes from actually a latin american culture, we have retained the certain characteristics and values, and suffering of our ancestors. No one in my family sees it or understands it. But i know they can feel it. I see it in all of them. Though i'll say most of my family didn't stick to those values. Which is why they're more 'successful'.

 

These values of course exist in many people in different cultures. But if i'm being honest i see this specific 'thing' in specific cultures. I can just sense and observe this. Not something i'd like to explain, as i'd look silly doing it for now no matter what i'd say.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

He says we've got forty years left.  But, unfortunately, the only solution he knows that could save our collective ass is technological.  Too late for anything else, we need "more" of one particular kind of technology (and also to immediately drop a few others like a hand grenade with the safety pin removed) -- and a breakthrough in that one area, or else it's worse than over for us.  But I don't want to talk in riddles nor hijack my own thread.    Maybe for another one someday...    

 

Did he say what that particular technology is? Category?

 

Zero point energy, healing, transportation, unlimited energy?

 

We don't need to hijack the thread. No worries. Though i will say it'd be a good concealment for this type of topic. It's not too far off topic either.

Edited December 19, 2019 by welkin

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, welkin said:

 

Hi Nungali, i have been hearing about the Australian fires still. Can't believe it honestly. sorry for any conflict we may have had in the past, and hope you're good over there.

 

Lets keep that subject to the 'Inferno' thread, thanks .

 

 

6 hours ago, welkin said:

 

read the book. Then talk

 

 

nah .   A summary is sufficient  for me ... if I had a penny for every wacko  theory that people suggested I read the book about  ......

 

Anyway, I have just started a new book that cost me $2 at this little beach town's  'op shop' ;

 

' Egypt's Making'  by Michael Rice .  yes he is a pro and an academic and comes from  ....... ' the establishment '     ....  Ooooooo .

 

https://search.proquest.com/openview/4c89f92ca7f7bde5160fece51bd6d5df/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=1976614

 

Its about thee arliest times and formation of pre-dynastic Egypt , up to the end of the Old Kingdom ( I think )

 

Anyway, he talks about his early time as an archaeologist in Egypt in the 50s (he has passed on now) and how 'free' it was to explore and find things, yet have a modern 'ease' .

 

Then he goes on to a detailed history of the whys and wherefores  and methods of dating . He also says how this dating came about and how its an ancient world standard  now , ie,  other  cultures and societies  dating are based on the Egyptian understanding. Its worth reading if one want to know HOW these things got their dates . Of course, not all are in agreement . And he explains why.

 

Then he goes on to say   how in his latter life, after collating a lot of ms interest turned to the other side of the Red  Sea and Arabia and the  ancient finds there , which he says few know little about . Then he goes on to outline the book saying a lot is about this research, how all early civilisations seem connected to this area . His frst  focus will be  Pre dynastic Egypt,  and connections with Arabia , and proto Sumerian and Elamite .

 

Should be a good read . I am wondering if Apech has read it ?

 

 

I will get back to the thread with any interesting or relevant info that arises  from it .

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/MAGAZINE-divers-uncover-world-s-oldest-harbor-in-red-sea-1.5464894

 

 

 

 

 

[welkin]

10 minutes ago, Nungali said:

nah .   A summary is sufficient  for me ... if I had a penny for every wacko  theory that people suggested I read the book about  ......

 

 

 

 

 

You might have a dollar. That being said, i understand where you're coming from.

 

If you get bored of Egypt though..

 

 

[Nungali]

Bored ..... with Egypt  ?  

 

Havent scrapped the surface really ,  after  over 20 years  of interest and reading .

[Apech]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Lets keep that subject to the 'Inferno' thread, thanks .

 

 

 

nah .   A summary is sufficient  for me ... if I had a penny for every wacko  theory that people suggested I read the book about  ......

 

Anyway, I have just started a new book that cost me $2 at this little beach town's  'op shop' ;

 

' Egypt's Making'  by Michael Rice .  yes he is a pro and an academic and comes from  ....... ' the establishment '     ....  Ooooooo .

 

https://search.proquest.com/openview/4c89f92ca7f7bde5160fece51bd6d5df/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=1976614

 

Its about thee arliest times and formation of pre-dynastic Egypt , up to the end of the Old Kingdom ( I think )

 

Anyway, he talks about his early time as an archaeologist in Egypt in the 50s (he has passed on now) and how 'free' it was to explore and find things, yet have a modern 'ease' .

 

Then he goes on to a detailed history of the whys and wherefores  and methods of dating . He also says how this dating came about and how its an ancient world standard  now , ie,  other  cultures and societies  dating are based on the Egyptian understanding. Its worth reading if one want to know HOW these things got their dates . Of course, not all are in agreement . And he explains why.

 

Then he goes on to say   how in his latter life, after collating a lot of ms interest turned to the other side of the Red  Sea and Arabia and the  ancient finds there , which he says few know little about . Then he goes on to outline the book saying a lot is about this research, how all early civilisations seem connected to this area . His frst  focus will be  Pre dynastic Egypt,  and connections with Arabia , and proto Sumerian and Elamite .

 

Should be a good read . I am wondering if Apech has read it ?

 

 

I will get back to the thread with any interesting or relevant info that arises  from it .

 

 

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/MAGAZINE-divers-uncover-world-s-oldest-harbor-in-red-sea-1.5464894

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No I haven't  - looks good tho'.

[Nungali]

It seems an 'earlier version' of  ... Toby Wilkinson's 'Genesis of the Pharaohs '   where he looks at  eastern desert cave art and , again, that oldest sea port in the world , conected to Wadi  Hammamat  . Earliest discoverers postulated an incoming advanced peoples , later discredited as 'Empire based interpretation' '  but Rice seems to be following this up .   With a route across Arabia , linking it to   western and   (surprise !   )  ... Central Asia .  

 

... but I dont recall  Wilkinson linking that art with the other side of the Red Sea , as Rice does .

Edited December 19, 2019 by Nungali

[Taomeow]

18 hours ago, welkin said:

 

This is pretty heavy stuff.

 

His claim about the multiple species and how it's a battle between those entities who are enslaving humans and them is very similar to a lot of pseudo/conspiracy ideas. So nothing too out of the ordinary here, within context of course.

 

 

Ponerology is the study of evil.  Evil is interesting in that it only proclaims "I am evil, booo" in Hollywood movies.  In real life, it usually hides behind a facade of good and right and just and justified.  Let's burn the Reichstag and blame it on the communists.  Let's hire some strike breakers and stop the workers from demanding better pay.  Let's find an excuse to go to war -- how about weapons of mass destruction?  Let's diagnose every child bored by school with ADHD so we can prescribe Ritalin and make a quick few billion bucks.  Let's...  well, I don't want to go into the really heavy stuff.  On a lighter note, how about "let's disrupt elections in a foreign country," "let's accuse our opponents of disrupting elections in a foreign country," "let's accuse our opponents of wrongfully accusing us of disrupting elections in a foreign country," "let's accuse our opponents of wrongfully accusing us of wrongfully accusing them of disrupting elections in a foreign country?"  Whichever is made up, it's in the headlines every day.  Conspiracy.  So there's really no reason to view every conspiracy as "pseudo."  (There's pseudo too of course.)  Incidentally, the dissemination into public circulation of the term "conspiracy theory" was  a conspiracy.

 

Then there's far-out stuff.  How many far-out scenarios are there if you think about them at the foundational level?  Three.  Creation, by god, premeditated and undertaken according to some plan.  Evolution, by chance, not premeditated and happening without any prior plan in the form of adaptive changes in a changing environment.  And intervention, an alien/foreign/rogue/breakaway force invading and subjugating a particular environment.  We, civilized humans, ourselves are such intervention vis a vis nearly all tribal,  animal and plant life on earth.  Is it completely impossible to allow for the possibility that this intervening activity of ours is not unique?  That it may have happened on a different scale, at a different time, with similar or greater decisiveness -- to us, not just by us?

 

I don't know.  All I'm saying is, some of the observable facts seem impossible to explain without at least considering that third scenario.   A ponerologist is forced to consider either an evil god, evil evolution, or evil alien forces.  Which is more plausible, what do you think?  We were created by an evil god?  We evolved into an evil species?  Or we were thwarted by domestication?     

 

[Nungali]

I also wanted to read more about Elam  / Proto-Elamite , this site looks interesting , I will put it here as part of our 'library' ;

Elam, Indus Valley Civilisation, BMAC,  "White tribes of ancient China " ,  Tarim Basin, etc .

 

http://www.danel.com.hr/Elam.html

 

Lioness-woman sculpture - Elamite figure c. 3000 BC

[welkin]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Ponerology is the study of evil.  Evil is interesting in that it only proclaims "I am evil, booo" in Hollywood movies.  In real life, it usually hides behind a facade of good and right and just and justified.  Let's burn the Reichstag and blame it on the communists.  Let's hire some strike breakers and stop the workers from demanding better pay.  Let's find an excuse to go to war -- how about weapons of mass destruction?  Let's diagnose every child bored by school with ADHD so we can prescribe Ritalin and make a quick few billion bucks.  Let's...  well, I don't want to go into the really heavy stuff.  On a lighter note, how about "let's disrupt elections in a foreign country," "let's accuse our opponents of disrupting elections in a foreign country," "let's accuse our opponents of wrongfully accusing us of disrupting elections in a foreign country," "let's accuse our opponents of wrongfully accusing us of wrongfully accusing them of disrupting elections in a foreign country?"  Whichever is made up, it's in the headlines every day.  Conspiracy.  So there's really no reason to view every conspiracy as "pseudo."  (There's pseudo too of course.)  Incidentally, the dissemination into public circulation of the term "conspiracy theory" was  a conspiracy.

 

 

pseudo and heavy are just terms that i use due to the fact that most people who are too blind to believe anything. Therefore pseudo or the idea of it being heavy is more believable for their brains. Sorry for the confusion. I now know we are on the same page. Not that i didn't think so previously. just didn't know how much.

 

There's no disagreement here. I agree and am aware of literally everything you're saying.

 

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Then there's far-out stuff.  How many far-out scenarios are there if you think about them at the foundational level?  Three.  Creation, by god, premeditated and undertaken according to some plan.  Evolution, by chance, not premeditated and happening without any prior plan in the form of adaptive changes in a changing environment.  And intervention, an alien/foreign/rogue/breakaway force invading and subjugating a particular environment.  We, civilized humans, ourselves are such intervention vis a vis nearly all tribal,  animal and plant life on earth.  Is it completely impossible to allow for the possibility that this intervening activity of ours is not unique?  That it may have happened on a different scale, at a different time, with similar or greater decisiveness -- to us, not just by us?

 

I don't know.  All I'm saying is, some of the observable facts seem impossible to explain without at least considering that third scenario.   A ponerologist is forced to consider either an evil god, evil evolution, or evil alien forces.  Which is more plausible, what do you think?  We were created by an evil god?  We evolved into an evil species?  Or we were thwarted by domestication?     

 

 

I'll say right away, idk. But i believe that we both agree, that idk doesn't mean 'i don't know anything' either. From my earlier experiences this year, my intuition is telling me that all 3 are true. But it could be what parts of the 3 are true, is more of the question.

 

i'm not sure about whether it matters what specific things we know either. I know the details are important. But i also believe it only matters depending on the context. Sometimes detailed accuracy are more of a distraction than positive progression. And sometimes generality is what blinds us from the truth in the details.

 

This thing we're dealing with globally though, i feel like it may not be as important to know all or every specific detail. So then what is important right?

 

It would be very simple to say to open ourselves and find true truths in the patterns we see in the world and ourselves.  But i do think that there are deeper levels of understanding than through intellect or emotion that we're still unaware of. And therefore maybe that's why we don't need to know everything externally as intellectual proof, because maybe there something greater out there, down there, or in here that has our back. As in mother earth herself. Which will reveal truths to those who are worthy or will do something with it. Nothing new though. Just saying this could be the case.

 

I don't want to seem all hypothetical though. I truly mean it when i say that i want and will take action to make a difference before my time is done. But in the way that does change the course of.. i'll just end it here.

 

If mother earth is a god in of herself, do you think the cataclysms are controlled by her depending on the necessity. or is it just natural occurrence based on the energies from the moon, sun, timing?

 

The thing is i can get really creative and come up with many many scenarios in which one could be true. But that wouldn't help i don't think. i may be wrong, sometimes creative thought on scenario in combination with logical/intellectual analysis does draw true conclusions that wouldn't have come up with only the analysis aspect.

 

i just don't know. It could be a combination of an alien species creating the human race at a earlier time. cataclysm happens. few survive. another race comes, enslaves the ones from the previous ones. and now mother earth is like nah, we don't like the new ones, we liked the old ones. Lol.

 

What are the intentions or purposes though?

 

to leave the planet? to get rid of overpopulation to create abundance for those who survive?

 

I also wonder if evil is definitely dominating, as it seems to be. or if good is hiding ready to come out when the time is right. It would be very somber to know that there really is only evil making plans.

Edited December 20, 2019 by welkin

[Apech]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

It seems an 'earlier version' of  ... Toby Wilkinson's 'Genesis of the Pharaohs '   where he looks at  eastern desert cave art and , again, that oldest sea port in the world , conected to Wadi  Hammamat  . Earliest discoverers postulated an incoming advanced peoples , later discredited as 'Empire based interpretation' '  but Rice seems to be following this up .   With a route across Arabia , linking it to   western and   (surprise !   )  ... Central Asia .  

 

... but I dont recall  Wilkinson linking that art with the other side of the Red Sea , as Rice does .

 

It's fairly fundamental to ask, in terms of 'advanced people theories' what we mean by advanced and what are the causes and conditions of advancement.  And other interesting questions such as why people all over the world at some time or another come up with the idea of building pyramid type structures (seems almost universal).  I think until these questions are settled ideas about how cultures originate will not be resolved.

 

I think, probably that what is behind all 'civilisation' is the mental shift from living off one's environment to that of manipulating your environment to suit you.  As I am a non-materialist I suspect that this change in outlook happened first - i.e. some kind of spiritual/emotional change in humans occurred which brought about this desire to build communities around controlled environments - ok this in itself might have been responsive to things like climate change (for instance a response to catastrophe - 'we won't let that happen again') but still the change in outlook probably must have pre-dated any change in lifestyle.

 

 

[Taomeow]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

It's fairly fundamental to ask, in terms of 'advanced people theories' what we mean by advanced and what are the causes and conditions of advancement.  And other interesting questions such as why people all over the world at some time or another come up with the idea of building pyramid type structures (seems almost universal).  I think until these questions are settled ideas about how cultures originate will not be resolved.

 

I think, probably that what is behind all 'civilisation' is the mental shift from living off one's environment to that of manipulating your environment to suit you.  As I am a non-materialist I suspect that this change in outlook happened first - i.e. some kind of spiritual/emotional change in humans occurred which brought about this desire to build communities around controlled environments - ok this in itself might have been responsive to things like climate change (for instance a response to catastrophe - 'we won't let that happen again') but still the change in outlook probably must have pre-dated any change in lifestyle.

 

 

 

Far as I've been able to discern, it always involved coercion.  The shift was never voluntary.  It was not a change of outlook.  It was a physical attack and pain and suffering and destruction of the lifestyle and the habitat that preceded the change of outlook.  Under a mountain of red tape they always kept a machine gun -- that's how you learn to respect the red tape.  Andean civilizations, another  pyramid building gang, were terrorizing all the indigenous tribes around them who feared them worse than death itself and fled farther and farther away when they could instead of "changing their outlook."  Inca and Maya did it as effectively and relentlessly as Sumer or Babylon or the British empire.   

 

I think the change was the introduction of coercion backed up by violence.  I decide what you are going to do, what you are going to be, or else you suffer and die.  That kind of a deal behind a new outlook.  

[Apech]

8 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Far as I've been able to discern, it always involved coercion.  The shift was never voluntary.  It was not a change of outlook.  It was a physical attack and pain and suffering and destruction of the lifestyle and the habitat that preceded the change of outlook.  Under a mountain of red tape they always kept a machine gun -- that's how you learn to respect the red tape.  Andean civilizations, another  pyramid building gang, were terrorizing all the indigenous tribes around them who feared them worse than death itself and fled farther and farther away when they could instead of "changing their outlook."  Inca and Maya did it as effectively and relentlessly as Sumer or Babylon or the British empire.   

 

I think the change was the introduction of coercion backed up by violence.  I decide what you are going to do, what you are going to be, or else you suffer and die.  That kind of a deal behind a new outlook.  

 

 

I think the coercion - which undoubtedly existed - was secondary.  As in 'we can build a world this way - to do this we have to make others do what they are told.'

[Taomeow]

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I think the coercion - which undoubtedly existed - was secondary.  As in 'we can build a world this way - to do this we have to make others do what they are told.'

 

When people don't like doing what they are told, they just leave.  How could everyone suddenly like doing what they're told all at once? 

 

Now imagine you can't just leave.  Imagine where you are is the only life you've ever known, your whole world, your family, your community, your livelihood, the only place in the world where you belong.  So how do people suddenly swap all that for doing what they're told?  Someone has to make it impossible to leave.  So how does it suddenly happen everywhere all at once?  -- and in the historical sense, that's exactly how it happened.  All of a sudden and everywhere.  Out of the blue.  A psychological shift somewhere sometime -- maybe.  A psychological shift everywhere simultaneously and exactly the same everywhere -- that's something supernatural.  Either supernatural, which means someone cancelled natural laws that guided our life since inception and always.  Or super-powerful, possibly natural but not of human nature.  I don't see how else a whole species could lose its mind toward millennia of global misery for 99% of its members.  It's like imagining that chickens all of a sudden decided for themselves that they don't want to be chickens, they want to be poultry.  In organized, orderly, efficient factory farms.  Did they though?..

[Apech]

23 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

When people don't like doing what they are told, they just leave.  How could everyone suddenly like doing what they're told all at once? 

 

Now imagine you can't just leave.  Imagine where you are is the only life you've ever known, your whole world, your family, your community, your livelihood, the only place in the world where you belong.  So how do people suddenly swap all that for doing what they're told?  Someone has to make it impossible to leave.  So how does it suddenly happen everywhere all at once?  -- and in the historical sense, that's exactly how it happened.  All of a sudden and everywhere.  Out of the blue.  A psychological shift somewhere sometime -- maybe.  A psychological shift everywhere simultaneously and exactly the same everywhere -- that's something supernatural.  Either supernatural, which means someone cancelled natural laws that guided our life since inception and always.  Or super-powerful, possibly natural but not of human nature.  I don't see how else a whole species could lose its mind toward millennia of global misery for 99% of its members.  It's like imagining that chickens all of a sudden decided for themselves that they don't want to be chickens, they want to be poultry.  In organized, orderly, efficient factory farms.  Did they though?..

 

 

I'd call it spiritual rather than supernatural.  

[Taomeow]

9 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I'd call it spiritual rather than supernatural.  

 

At the time "spiritual" meant "inhabiting the realm of spirits."  It was not what we mean when we say "spiritual," to the majority of modern humans it's something psychological/moral/ideological, but to our ancestors it was all about entities -- ancestral spirits, spirits of the higher and lower realms, hungry ghosts (don't remember if I mentioned that Sumerians had the concept of hungry ghosts indistinguishable from the Chinese gui, and rather identical attitudes and practices associated with them), spirits of natural objects and phenomena, and so on.  If you mean "spiritual" in the modern sense, where the actual "spirits" play no role and "it's all in your head," I would look into the genetic and/or epigenetic shifts that would have to take place toward the human spirit morphing into something else.   And if you mean "spiritual" in the original sense, then I would want to track down the spirit or spirits responsible... maybe all we need is an exorcism?..  Many traditions hold that you need to know the name of the spirit in order to exorcise it.  So that's what I'm looking for, pretty much.

[Apech]

41 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

At the time "spiritual" meant "inhabiting the realm of spirits."  It was not what we mean when we say "spiritual," to the majority of modern humans it's something psychological/moral/ideological, but to our ancestors it was all about entities -- ancestral spirits, spirits of the higher and lower realms, hungry ghosts (don't remember if I mentioned that Sumerians had the concept of hungry ghosts indistinguishable from the Chinese gui, and rather identical attitudes and practices associated with them), spirits of natural objects and phenomena, and so on.  If you mean "spiritual" in the modern sense, where the actual "spirits" play no role and "it's all in your head," I would look into the genetic and/or epigenetic shifts that would have to take place toward the human spirit morphing into something else.   And if you mean "spiritual" in the original sense, then I would want to track down the spirit or spirits responsible... maybe all we need is an exorcism?..  Many traditions hold that you need to know the name of the spirit in order to exorcise it.  So that's what I'm looking for, pretty much.

 

 

I meant spiritual as in 'of the spirit' = energy/awareness (maybe) - although I wouldn't rule out some evolutionary neural effects (in the broadest sense) where our hardwired world view caused some shift in consciousness.