Balancing physical conditioning with internal cultivation

[Michael Sternbach]

On 2019/8/31 at 5:08 PM, escott said:

I'm not a big "there's an app for that" kind of guy, but in the case of Tabata and HIIT workouts, well... There's An App For That! I've used them and they are really helpful. I've even been thinking of using a Tabata timer for changing Zhan Zhuang positions.

 

I have been using that kind of app for awhile but found the spam that came with it a bit annoying in the long run (no pun intended). I then started using the so-called Gymboss timer, which I am very satisfied with to this day. Highly recommended for anybody who is serious about Tabata - or indeed about any form of HIIT, as the duration of the intervals can be set to your liking. 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Michael Sternbach

[freeform]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

What`s the relationship between physical strength and spiritual development?

 

You're quite right - strength, for some reason, is seen quite negatively in spiritual circles. But I agree - it’s a fundamental component of any sort of cultivation.

 

But strength is not rippling muscles and bench pressing hundreds of kilos. Internal power is very strong - just the source of power is not the ‘ordinary’ muscles. That’s it

[freeform]

38 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

That should make for an attractive event on visiting day at the retirement home. 

 

 more than one point of agreement it seems!

 

39 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

Actually, some internal types are  able to hold their own against the external types rather well. The following tournament recording being a nice example:

 

https://youtu.be/Yfj6oI0xOA4

 

Sorry, but there’s nothing ‘internal’ about that Taiji.

 

But I agree with you - taiji is most definitely a martial art - in the right hands it’s a very powerful form of combat. But we’re not likely to see taiji players in MMA contests for the reasons I’ve mentioned.

 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Pero said:

What are other key circulations?

 

Its a big subject to be honest. But the channels that are opened for taiji are not the same as in Qigong. 

[dwai]

 

Quote

So I take it that, according to you, e.g., renown masters Jwing Ming Yang (Fujian White Crane and Taiji) and Wing Lam (Hung Gar and Bagua) are nothing but ignorant amateurs. 

There’s a lot of what we can call “internal-external” forms of so called internal arts. To know a genuine internal artist, is to feel their power. You won’t feel like you were pushed but you find yourself hit a wall several feet behind. Or suddenly drop to the ground upon the lightest touch. 

 

Most people are unable to let go of the comfort of their physical strength. It takes dedication to do so. Some might even call it craziness  

 

My Master says it very simply  — “if you want to get good at internal power, you have to believe in it 100% - 99.9% won’t work”  —  have confidence in your training and experiences. Don’t have a backup place for physical strength at all. 

 

Literally give up your reliance on physical strength. I think that’s the part about pure internal martial arts that’s the hardest. 

 

Im a pretty strong guy - always have been. For me, strength is not a problem (ie in context of the OP). I’ve had to let go of my reliance on strength progressively for many years , been a martial artist for 30 years, of which 18-19 have been doing taijiquan. 

 

The mysterious power of taiji is simply mind boggling. That’s the reason why I stuck with it for so many years. I’ve touched hands with some very high level folks. Didn’t even have to go to China for it. They are right here in Chicago  

[Michael Sternbach]

3 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

Having the meats, but not using them to do what most people are trained to do - it is indeed difficult, but completely possible.

 

Using one's muscles without getting tense have a lot to do with learning to use the fibers in a completely different way than most people use. Think a roundhouse kick. Can you perform that without letting go of muscle tension? Can you perform any martial arts being stiff as a rock?

 

As you're using your bones and Qi to exert power, tension (and muscle tension as well) will disrupt this flux. In order to be able to use Qi without relying on stop using muscles you'll need to learn something that's almost mystical as well - strong and flexible. To let the muscles permeable even when the fibers are contracting.

 

Indeed. And doing all your moves free of tension in slow-motion can greatly help you acquire this skill. I suppose this was actually the reason super slow moves were introduced into Taiji in the first place.

 

One of my Kenpo instructors taught me a related type of exercise which he in turn had learned from Paul Mills. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

To learn to be energetically relaxed even while your body tenses small pieces of it. Weight lifting will be especially problematic in this case, as the whole mental memetics around weight lifting have to do with becoming more and more tense, inflamated and swollen.

 

But that's more a question of the mental memetics that come with weight lifting sometimes... And will be most prevalent amongst bodybuilders.

 

That said, I believe that martial artists should balance the typically slow movements of heavy weight lifting with sets of fast ones using only light resistance. 

 

3 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

Remember that we have energy channels all over our body, not only our main meridians bot lots of very small meridians which spread everywere. Once you learn how to let those relaxed and open even as the muscular fibers operate - and more, once you learn how to use the contraction and relaxing of the fibers to increase the potency of your accumulations and releases of Qi - then you'll enter a new stage on your practices.

 

That should be it. Good luck

 

[Rara]

On 31/08/2019 at 3:05 PM, KuroShiro said:

By the way I've stopped eating rice about 2 months ago and did not notice the addiction

I'm doing this because I need to gain weight

 

Out of curiosity, what have you replaced rice with to gain wait? I eat a lot of bread, rice and potatoes but still struggle to get over 155lbs

[MuadDib]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

Out of curiosity, what have you replaced rice with to gain wait? I eat a lot of bread, rice and potatoes but still struggle to get over 155lbs

 

IME, the most efficient way to gain weight without screwing up your body balance is consuming a lot of healthy fats.

 

Simple carbs usually fill your tummy up for a short time, but get broken down quickly and spike your blood sugar level causing a lot of long term problems such as insulin resistance etc. 

 

Fats on the other hand, are metabolized slowly and provide a less volatile source of energy.

 

So you should go for all kinds of nuts and seeds. If you consume animal products, go for fatty fish like salmon and red meat like lamb and also chicken. Remember to avoid frying things.

 

You can reduce the amount of bread you at and spread some real butter on your bread. Similarly, eat less rice and cook it with butter. If you eat dairy that is.

[Rara]

9 hours ago, MuadDib said:

 

IME, the most efficient way to gain weight without screwing up your body balance is consuming a lot of healthy fats.

 

Simple carbs usually fill your tummy up for a short time, but get broken down quickly and spike your blood sugar level causing a lot of long term problems such as insulin resistance etc. 

 

Fats on the other hand, are metabolized slowly and provide a less volatile source of energy.

 

So you should go for all kinds of nuts and seeds. If you consume animal products, go for fatty fish like salmon and red meat like lamb and also chicken. Remember to avoid frying things.

 

You can reduce the amount of bread you at and spread some real butter on your bread. Similarly, eat less rice and cook it with butter. If you eat dairy that is.

 

Yeah. I lost 14 lbs in Wudang eating rice, but my physical enerrgy output was huge.

 

I eat nuts and seeds anyway...oats, potato, bread, meat, veg, fruit...daily. I run out of things to eat so I still manage to get chocolate cookies in as well and I still struggle to gain. Genetics, eh?

 

Anyway, thread derail alert! Ha

[MuadDib]

13 hours ago, Rara said:

 

Yeah. I lost 14 lbs in Wudang eating rice, but my physical enerrgy output was huge.

 

I eat nuts and seeds anyway...oats, potato, bread, meat, veg, fruit...daily. I run out of things to eat so I still manage to get chocolate cookies in as well and I still struggle to gain. Genetics, eh?

 

Anyway, thread derail alert! Ha

 

Apologies in advance for the derailment 

 

Lucky you for having a fast metabolism. Still, increasing your intake of fat should solve the problem. Fat is very calorie - dense. So go ahead and dip your bread in virgin olive oil, spread butter over your bread, have some hard cheese, generously add cream to your potatoes and have 'em mashed. Eventually you are bound to tip the balance and start gaining weight - ending your struggles. What is important is not getting used to it and become overweight, IMO 

[Starjumper]

I disagree, I've always had a very high fat diet, and in general I've been slender, with a couple of minor excursions in to being able to 'pinch an inch'.  Does anyone remember the pinch an inch warning by president Kennedy?

 

Fats are the most difficult to digest, therefore they take the longest to digest, which makes you feel full longer, which makes you eat less calories actually.   When you eat fat with a meal, even with carbs, it slows down the digestion so you feel full longer and it does not create blood sugar spikes, weight gain, or insulin resistance.    On the other hand, eating a lot of simple carbs, which digest very fast, leads to blood sugar spikes, which causes weight gain and insulin resistance.  Anyone who is overweight is already on the road to diabetes, it is a direct relationship.

 

Oils from grain are very bad and inflammatory, except for sunflower oil, which is not a grain oil, which is even more inflamatory.

[MuadDib]

45 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

I disagree, I've always had a very high fat diet, and in general I've been slender, with a couple of minor excursions in to being able to 'pinch an inch'.  Does anyone remember the pinch an inch warning by president Kennedy?

 

Fats are the most difficult to digest, therefore they take the longest to digest, which makes you feel full longer, which makes you eat less calories actually.   When you eat fat with a meal, even with carbs, it slows down the digestion so you feel full longer and it does not create blood sugar spikes, weight gain, or insulin resistance.    On the other hand, eating a lot of simple carbs, which digest very fast, leads to blood sugar spikes, which causes weight gain and insulin resistance.  Anyone who is overweight is already on the road to diabetes, it is a direct relationship.

 

Oils from grain are very bad and inflammatory, except for sunflower oil, which is not a grain oil, which is even more inflamatory.

 

I agree with most of the above.

 

However, the feeling of fullness is also related to the volume of food you put into your stomach. For example, if you eat a huge amount of salad (lettuce, cucumbers, tomatoes etc), you will feel full but you will get a small amount of calories since most of the stuff you ate is basically water and fiber.

 

As you mentioned, going heavy on simple carbs may easily screw with your health. Protein is also not appropriate for gaining weight. Our bodies are accustomed to breaking down sugar and fat for energy, protein is sometimes used for producing energy but as a last resort kind of way. Also too much protein will risk screwing your kidneys which is a big no-no.

 

So, if you want to put on some healthy weight the only sensible solution is increasing your fat consumption. As we've been discussing, fat is very calorie - dense. So you are able to get a large quantity of calories with a relatively small volume of food. The feeling of fullness comes with a lag when we eat fat, because it is digested slowly as we've been discussing. So if one eats a high - calorie fatty meal before the feeling of fullness hits, one will be able to put on weight. At least IME, sorry for the long post.

 

[Starjumper]

It makes sense, high fat diets can help increase weight if someone is dedicated in that direction and combines it with a lot of carbs, but for some youngsters with high metabolism it seems actually more difficult for them to gain weight than for an overweight person to lose weight.  I would say, for Rara, the best way to gain some weight is by high fat, high carb diet plus isometrics.

[Rara]

18 hours ago, MuadDib said:

For example, if you eat a huge amount of salad (lettuce, cucumbers, tomatoes etc), you will feel full but you will get a small amount of calories since most of the stuff you ate is basically water and fiber.

 

 

Interesting, this. Becuase my friend often makes big salads when I visit him and I always feel "good" after because I don't usually eat like this. I tried to once, but found it unsustainable.

 

I found that doing this every so often is good, but eventually a good ol' KFC will give me a strength and energy boost when physically tired, and keep me full for ages...and also I will eat less calories in a day because around that, I'll eat very little except things like fruit.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I cant really say whats good vis a vis strenght training that is pro internal development. Sifus system has a lot of nei kung exercises, some are very physical (usually on entry level) and very focused on a particular thing, some are softer, some are in stillness etc.

I know my brothers have been given exercises based on their five phase body type: certain bodies have a stronger relationship to wood or fire or earth and have their corresponding strenghts and weaknesses. Wood bodies, i’ve been told, usually need balance training among other things because a wood body is ”tall” and slender. Not necessarily taller than others but elongated iirc... so there are exercises to help develop the lacking parts of ones own body, some of which are chalistenic or strenght training as far as i’ve seen. Within our system i mean, hard to speak outside that.

 

But from what i’ve seen with my students and myself is the following:

Correct horse stance and low stance training, pushups, planks, lunges, frogjumps, long hard bouts of kicking and striking with medium power and high technical focus and like my man SilentThunder said: WALKING. And micro-training such as using kung fu stances in your daily endeavors (low scissor stance to reac something on the floor, horse stance while washing up dishes etc).

Pushups though. Lots of those!

 

I’m currently trying to remedy my diet, which has been a mess for the past year...

But i constantly end up falling back on carbs and gluten, bread and sweets are my thing.

Plus:I cant do a single ”just a salad” meal without getting some fast and disruptive bowel movements within two hours after, it cant fail.

I was thinking going major on nutrient healthy fat (like olive oil), rice, nuts and veggies, the occasional game meat (when available) and tofu/vegetarian protein for everyday eats.

Its just that food is so immensly BORING to cook, eat, plan, shop and deal with, i honestly don’t know why but i’ve felt like this for a few years. I used to enjoy cooking and never felt ill at easy with my looks and weight and then the immense boredom and aversion to all the food-related logistics and planning and now i eat like a sugarjunkie teenager with a vengeance. Brrrr!

Add a dose of really feeling ugly-fat and heavy plus a recurring lapse in active kung fu training then well, i’m not really enjoying my physical self as much as i used to. That needs fixing, pronto and over a long time... wish a bum luck?

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Earl Grey]

4 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

I cant really say whats good vis a vis strenght training that is pro internal development. Sifus system has a lot of nei kung exercises, some are very physical (usually on entry level) and very focused on a particular thing, some are softer, some are in stillness etc.

I know my brothers have been given exercises based on their five phase body type: certain bodies have a stronger relationship to wood or fire or earth and have their corresponding strenghts and weaknesses. Wood bodies, i’ve been told, usually need balance training among other things because a wood body is ”tall” and slender. Not necessarily taller than others but elongated iirc... so there are exercises to help develop the lacking parts of ones own body, some of which are chalistenic or strenght training as far as i’ve seen. Within our system i mean, hard to speak outside that.

 

But from what i’ve seen with my students and myself is the following:

Correct horse stance and low stance training, pushups, planks, lunges, frogjumps, long hard bouts of kicking and striking with medium power and high technical focus and like my man SilentThunder said: WALKING. And micro-training such as using kung fu stances in your daily endeavors (low scissor stance to reac something on the floor, horse stance while washing up dishes etc).

Pushups though. Lots of those!

 

I’m currently trying to remedy my diet, which has been a mess for the past year...

But i constantly end up falling back on carbs and gluten, bread and sweets are my thing.

Plus:I cant do a single ”just a salad” meal without getting some fast and disruptive bowel movements within two hours after, it cant fail.

I was thinking going major on nutrient healthy fat (like olive oil), rice, nuts and veggies, the occasional game meat (when available) and tofu/vegetarian protein for everyday eats.

Its just that food is so immensly BORING to cook, eat, plan, shop and deal with, i honestly don’t know why but i’ve felt like this for a few years. I used to enjoy cooking and never felt ill at easy with my looks and weight and then the immense boredom and aversion to all the food-related logistics and planning and now i eat like a sugarjunkie teenager with a vengeance. Brrrr!

Add a dose of really feeling ugly-fat and heavy plus a recurring lapse in active kung fu training then well, i’m not really enjoying my physical self as much as i used to. That needs fixing, pronto and over a long time... wish a bum luck?

 

 

Perhaps this will interest you? 

 

 

[dwai]

FWIW, I signed on with a personal trainer, with whom I shared my concerns about strength training. She is setting a training regimen for me that will ensure I don’t overdo the muscle training and focus on cardio and fascia workouts. 

 

First workout was havoc, but I’m excited to see where we go with it. 

 

I had to do prolonged standing to release energy that rose upward as a result, sinking into the LDT. Also ran through a set of fajin cleansing drills (some teachers call it “throwing”) to loosen up the joints & fascia,  and workout the major fascial bands which are used for internal power transfer). The post workout taiji set helped bring things back to normal (in terms of how my insides feel).

 

 

[moment]

Success and be well

Edited September 6, 2019 by moment

[dwai]

On 9/6/2019 at 8:16 AM, dwai said:

FWIW, I signed on with a personal trainer, with whom I shared my concerns about strength training. She is setting a training regimen for me that will ensure I don’t overdo the muscle training and focus on cardio and fascia workouts. 

 

First workout was havoc, but I’m excited to see where we go with it. 

 

I had to do prolonged standing to release energy that rose upward as a result, sinking into the LDT. Also ran through a set of fajin cleansing drills (some teachers call it “throwing”) to loosen up the joints & fascia,  and workout the major fascial bands which are used for internal power transfer). The post workout taiji set helped bring things back to normal (in terms of how my insides feel).

 

 

I realize that after the "physical" workouts, I have to stand and release the qi downward. As the qi sinks I can feel the parts of the body (Muscular structures) that are obstructing the sinking. It literally feels like parts where Qi is flowing now is "wet" while the parts that are "strong" are dry. 

 

Especially in the shoulders and neck and the lower back, around the belt meridian I can sense bands of "strength" which need to be released after each workout. There might be some hope in this regard I guess, just have to work more towards releasing. 

[Earl Grey]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

I realize that after the "physical" workouts, I have to stand and release the qi downward. As the qi sinks I can feel the parts of the body (Muscular structures) that are obstructing the sinking. It literally feels like parts where Qi is flowing now is "wet" while the parts that are "strong" are dry. 

 

Especially in the shoulders and neck and the lower back, around the belt meridian I can sense bands of "strength" which need to be released after each workout. There might be some hope in this regard I guess, just have to work more towards releasing. 

 

Tension is created from any of those exercises. Zhan Zhuang is crucial for compressing the muscles, redistribution of power equally through the body, and draining lactic acid while increasing bone density.

 

You will find it much easier later on to the point tension won’t even build up if you do a lot of Zhan Zhuang.

[dwai]

On 9/11/2019 at 12:47 AM, Earl Grey said:

 

Tension is created from any of those exercises. Zhan Zhuang is crucial for compressing the muscles, redistribution of power equally through the body, and draining lactic acid while increasing bone density.

 

You will find it much easier later on to the point tension won’t even build up if you do a lot of Zhan Zhuang.

I'm a long time Zhan Zhuang practitioner, often standing ~ 1 hr at a time. I find it very useful to release tension. I don't see how it can be used to compress muscles. Power redistribution occurs by the distribution of Qi in my experience,  with increase in sung. The Qi sinks  into the LDT and then spills over & spreads all through the body.

 

BTW, too much standing is bad for the kidneys. We have to ensure that we move around after standing to prevent double weighting/adding too much pressure on the kidneys. 

 

[Earl Grey]

40 minutes ago, dwai said:

I'm a long time Zhan Zhuang practitioner, often standing ~ 1 hr at a time. I find it very useful to release tension. I don't see how it can be used to compress muscles. Power redistribution occurs by the distribution of Qi in my experience,  with increase in sung. The Qi sinks  into the LDT and then spills over & spreads all through the body.

 

BTW, too much standing is bad for the kidneys. We have to ensure that we move around after standing to prevent double weighting/adding too much pressure on the kidneys. 

 

 

I do not doubt your skill or understanding of Zhan Zhuang but we do things a little differently in Xin Yi as we focus on body rewiring rather than qi.  Master David’s record was five hours.

 

In order to not get the energy stuck we do form that’s usually either Yang or Liuhebafa for the energy to go somewhere, otherwise it’s like overcharging the battery in a laptop.

 

Muscle compressing happens with rewiring and awareness but I don’t know how it’s done in Temple style as the way I learned Zhan Zhuang is very different amongst my teachers who come from Tai Chi and Bagua as well, and my focus is from the Xin Yi lineage more (mostly Yi Quan).

Edited September 12, 2019 by Earl Grey

[dwai]

52 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I do not doubt your skill or understanding of Zhan Zhuang but we do things a little differently in Xin Yi as we focus on body rewiring rather than qi.  Master David’s record was five hours.

That's hardcore .

A buddy of mine might have overloaded his kidneys doing extended standing in the past. Why I thought of him was because I think he used to interact with your teacher in the past (he's filipino too). 

Quote

 

In order to not get the energy stuck we do form that’s usually either Yang or Liuhebafa for the energy to go somewhere, otherwise it’s like overcharging the battery in a laptop.

Yeah we do the taiji forms (single form). 

Quote

Muscle compressing happens with rewiring and awareness but I don’t know how it’s done in Temple style as the way I learned Zhan Zhuang is very different amongst my teachers who come from Tai Chi and Bagua as well, and my focus is from the Xin Yi lineage more (mostly Yi Quan).

One type of compression we do is called "condensing breathing". Initially when we want to send the Qi into the bone marrow, we use a little bit of muscular tension. Eventually the compression happens directly into the bone marrow without having to activate the musculature. 

 

I did study the yi quan way outlined by Jan Diepersloot in his book "warriors of stillness". Form wise (ie standing forms) there are many overlaps, but I think the devil's in the details - we do things differently. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by dwai

[Earl Grey]

On 9/13/2019 at 12:04 AM, dwai said:

That's hardcore . My buddy might have overloaded his kidneys doing extended standing in the past. 

Yeah we do the taiji forms (single form). 

One type of compression we do is called "condensing breathing". Initially when we want to send the Qi into the bone marrow, we use a little bit of muscular tension. Eventually the compression happens directly into the bone marrow without having to activate the musculature. 

 

I did study the yi quan way outlined by Jan Diepersloot in his book "warriors of stillness". Form wise (ie standing forms) there are many overlaps, but I think the devil's in the details - we do things differently. 

 

My personal record is only two hours nonstop, but in general I stand two times a day an hour or so each, plus 2-5 minutes in big basin training. When I don’t do forms after, I do feel stagnation and blockage of energy. 

 

I also read about compressing in Tai Chi Classics (mandatory from my Tai Chi teacher Eric Randolph), but that’s not how we do it. EDIT: I am no longer associated with Eric Randolph 

 

As for Diepersloot, I have never heard of that author, but you can see our lineage at www.xinyimeditation.com to see how ours developed and who the key personalities are. Usually from looking at someone’s stances can I tell how close they are to us because I’ve seen schools who do an entirely different set of eight postures than us. At that point we can only really tell after tuishou because we don’t hold the form or style sacred, we just look for power, rooting, and skill.

 

At your level of development I would have more to learn from you as I am not as developed in Tai Chi even if I studied it longer than Xin Yi but I developed Xin Yi better. If I’m in Chicago let’s go touch hands.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Earl Grey

[dwai]

20 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

My personal record is only two hours nonstop, but in general I stand two times a day an hour or so each, plus 2-5 minutes in big basin training. When I don’t do forms after, I do feel stagnation and blockage of energy. 

 

I also read about compressing in Tai Chi Classics (mandatory from my Tai Chi teacher Eric Randolph), but that’s not how we do it.

 

As for Diepersloot, I have never heard of that author, but you can see our lineage at www.xinyimeditation.com to see how ours developed and who the key personalities are. Usually from looking at someone’s stances can I tell how close they are to us because I’ve seen schools who do an entirely different set of eight postures than us. At that point we can only really tell after tuishou because we don’t hold the form or style sacred, we just look for power, rooting, and skill.

Agreed  

20 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

At your level of development I would have more to learn from you as I am not as developed in Tai Chi even if I studied it longer than Xin Yi but I developed Xin Yi better. If I’m in Chicago let’s go touch hands.

Awesome. Please lmk when you're in town. Would love to meet up  (ducking from brickbats thrown by some chicago locals whom I've not yet been able to meet)