The Art of War

[Encephalon]

It would seem that the subject of conflict is alive and well, personally, collectively, globally.  With the arctic in flames and the next American election cycle heating up, we are all being called to act courageously if we want a habitable planet.

I'm proposing (another?) round of study Sun Tzu's classic.  I haven't teased out the study guidelines, but I'd love to see honest and forthright participation, which I believe mandates homework and scholarship.  As evidenced below, I"ve kind of gone bonkers collecting different interpretations.  Any takers?

 

[Taomeow]

I had five versions at one point, two of which I gave to people and never saw back (happens to my favorite books all the time -- when I'm eager to share, someone assumes I myself want to go without.  Nope.  That's not the art of anything.   ) 

 

The one "for women" I stopped reading after giving it a fair try -- as usual, I found I don't like "popularized" and "reinterpreted" versions of anything and only care for the most pristine ones.  I can interpret stuff myself, thank you.  And "popularized" usually boils down to "dumbed down."  

 

As for the rest, I'm game.  Although most of my "art of war" studies are happening in hands-on taiji combat applications these days, and hardly ever get transferred to the head.  But I think I would enjoy a quality foray into the subject.  Been a while.

[Encephalon]

Well, Taomeow, it looks like this is going nowhere for now.  Maybe some other time. 

Regards,

scott

 

[Rara]

On 30/08/2019 at 10:28 PM, Taomeow said:

I had five versions at one point, two of which I gave to people and never saw back (happens to my favorite books all the time -- when I'm eager to share, someone assumes I myself want to go without.  Nope.  That's not the art of anything.   ) 

 

 

Haha, this happened to TWO of my TTCs!

 

On 30/08/2019 at 7:51 PM, Encephalon said:

I'm proposing (another?) round of study Sun Tzu's classic.  I haven't teased out the study guidelines, but I'd love to see honest and forthright participation, which I believe mandates homework and scholarship.  As evidenced below, I"ve kind of gone bonkers collecting different interpretations.  Any takers?

 

I'll raise my hand because I like the idea and want to at least try. I am decorating/moving to a new place as we speak but I'll swing by when I can.

[Kojiro]

Currently rereading the book, this time the Lionel Giles translation, which I find very interesting, simple and direct. Here is the link if somebody is interested:

 

https://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

[Kojiro]

A few wise quotes:

 

17. Let your rapidity be that of the wind, your compactness that of the forest.

18. In raiding and plundering be like fire, is immovability like a mountain.

19. Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.

[silent thunder]

Don't know how much I'll have to contribute, but I always appreciate important subjects engaged by knowledgeable and wise contributors.

As such, I deeply appreciate both Sun Tzu's work and Musashi's Five Rings and while I studied the arts of combat for many years immersing in them and these two books about them, I eventually came to the realization that the true conflict has always abided within my own mind and the projection of a sense of an individual small and 'seperate' self. 

 

At this point in my unfolding of life, violence to me presents as failure.  The lowest common denominator and the last and least desired result in nearly all conditions.

This is not meant to imply that I am a pacifist.

My sense of it is rather close to verse 31 of the Dao.

 

31

Weapons: tools of pain.

Used for violence and fear,

decent folk abhor.

 

Yet in direst need

and if compelled will use them,

with utmost restraint.

 

Peace, highest value.

When the peace has been shattered

who can be content?

 

Glory in fighting?

Those who delight in killing

do not know true source.

 

Your foes not demons.

Simple beings like yourself.

Sage desires no harm.

 

No victory dance

victory by force, no joy

how rejoice in this?

 

Sage battles gravely

with sorrow, and compassion

like tending a grave.

 

[stirling]

Reminds me of:

 

Quote

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

 

[Kojiro]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

Reminds me of:

 

 

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.

 

6. Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy’s troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Kojiro

[thelerner]

To conquer without fighting.  In Risk, the common(sense) strategy is to defend one's borders, which necessitates dividing ones troops.  instead one can hold all your troops amassed in one section.  That's half the strategy.  The other half is letting your opponents know that if they attack your border you'll answer with your full force against them.  Cutting through them like a knife.  This works particularly well in games with multiple players.

 

Twice, Russia was successful in taking bites out of Ukraine.  They had a large standing army,  world leader in tanks and nuclear weapons.  There threat was enough to allow walking in and taking.  There's a saying though, nothing works 3 times in a row.  You see it in competitive video games often;  a strategy works twice, but the third, the enemy knows, is waiting and counters.  

 

Warfare is horrible and murderous, but like a bad writer, Russia forgot the rule of 3.  Assumed they could win easy; practically without fighting due to overwhelming force.  There bluff was called, countered.  NATO and much of the world stood against them, even after threats of nuclear war. 

 

This isn't about the Russian/Ukraine conflict, as much as how we see the dynamics of Sun Tzu play out in real life.  

[kakapo]

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

A song about the art of war using quotes from the book.

 

 

Hook/Chorus:

In the midst of chaos, there’s opportunity/
Keep intentions shrouded in the mystery/
Know yourself and better know thy enemy/
A thousand battles mean a thousand victories/
Improvise, adapt, overcome/
Until the battle’s won the fight has just begun/
You gotta read the battlefield with insight/
And know when you should and when not to fight/

 

Verse 1

Like water we adapt and flow with precision/
In the shadows moving silent on a phantoms mission/
I got the knowledge and the skill and the foresight/
Illuminate the darkness, like a beacon in the night/
We weave through the ranks with our presence undetected/
We strike swift like the wind every move perfected/
We know they weakness, they plans we gone intercept it/
We outmaneuver, our dominance is uncontested/
In the art of war, the mind must prevail/
Study your opponent, every detail/
Avoid what’s strong then attack what’s weak/
Remember this wisdom and you will never know defeat.
We on the battlefield, with a heart made of steel/
Moving with precision our intentions stay concealed/
Master of deception yea we bend and we sway
Like chameleons in the game, we don't ever give it away/

 

Verse 2

Conserve your resources, gotta strike with precision/
Calculated moves only, no indecision/
Moving like the shadows and striking like lightning/
We conquer all the battles, our tactics they frightening/
We stealth and cunning, we make our incision/
Alotta silent victories, no need for recognition/
Divide and conquer, we break the opposition/
Deception is the key, we create false positions/
Rising like a phoenix, from ashes we soar/
With every challenge faced, we ready for more/
We plan all our moves and foresee all the future/
Prepare for the storm, like zeus im the ruler/
A dragon won’t die from the venom of a snake/
So never fear your enemy just wait for their mistakes/
A seed sown in darkness finds light within itself/
In the end the mastermind plays the cards that he’s dealt/

[Kojiro]

9. O divine art of subtlety and secrecy! Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy’s fate in our hands.

 

25. In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them; conceal your dispositions, and you will be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies, from the machinations of the wisest brains.

[thelerner]

6 hours ago, Kojiro said:

9. O divine art of subtlety and secrecy! Through you we learn to be invisible, through you inaudible; and hence we can hold the enemy’s fate in our hands.

 

25. In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them; conceal your dispositions, and you will be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies, from the machinations of the wisest brains.

With the right hand build alliances, with the left, quietly assassinate (or discredit) the top players on the other side.   

 

In some ways Kissinger's greatest powers grew from hosting social dinners and having an extensive Christmas card list.  He was incharge of foreign students at Harvard.  He was exceptional at it, gave young promising students great support, hosted them for dinners.  Never forgot them.  Thus his rolodex of future top business and government leaders was unparalleled.  Similarly he started a self published magazine at Harvard and solicited top decision makers to write articles for it, often not knowing how small it was.  Thus his correspondence and connections, 'soft power grew. 

 

Soft power.. personal connections.. little gifts and little debts.. by such things empires tilt toward rise or fall.  

[silent thunder]

23 hours ago, stirling said:

Reminds me of:

 

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

 

Key point.

 

You remind me of something quite significant.  Not all violence is physical.

And an old anonymous saying...

 

"1 out of 10 wars is started by what someone did, another one is started by what someone said and the other 8 start by how something was said."

[Taomeow]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

Key point.

 

You remind me of something quite significant.  Not all violence is physical.

And an old anonymous saying...

 

"1 out of 10 wars is started by what someone did, another one is started by what someone said and the other 8 start by how something was said."

 

To which I would add, all of them except for civil wars are started by something that was mistranslated. 

8 out of 10 of those are started by something that was mistranslated on purpose, and the other 2, by something mistranslated due to ineptitude. 

 

7 hours ago, thelerner said:

Soft power.. personal connections.. little gifts and little debts.. by such things empires tilt toward rise or fall.  

 

The prevalent kind of little gifts and little debts in today's world are of a very specific, very carefully fine-tuned nature:  they are almost exclusively such as to make the gifted/indebted party highly blackmailable. 

 

If there's no dirt on them, preferably of the most horrendous kind, they are never given a place by the power trough to begin with. 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Taomeow

[Kojiro]

Honestly I tend to think that wars are something sought and desired. Many people profit from them

[Mig]

On 7/12/2023 at 10:13 AM, stirling said:

Reminds me of:

 

 

Shìgù bǎizhàn-bǎishèng, fēi shàn zhī shàn yě; bù zhàn ér qūrén zhī bīng, shàn zhī shànzhě yě.
是故百戰百勝，非善之善也；不戰而屈人之兵，善之善者也。

Ch 3《謀攻 - Attack by Stratagem》

Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.  Gilles translation

And Mair's translation:

For this reason,
being victorious a hundred times in a hundred battles is not
the most excellent approach. Causing the enemy forces to submit
without a battle is the most excellent approach.

and summarizes: The main point of this chapter is that one should only go into battle when one has the advantage. It closes with the famous dictum about knowing oneself and one’s opponent.

 

I am having a problem understanding the original and the English translation. Any ideas?

[Taoist Texts]

5 hours ago, Mig said:

The main point of this chapter is that one should only go into battle when one has the advantage.

Mair misunderstood this. The main point of this chapter and the entire book is to never go into battle. 

5 hours ago, Mig said:

Hence to fight and conquer WIN in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking EXHAUSTING  the enemy's resistance without fighting A BATTLE .  Gilles translation

 

5 hours ago, Mig said:

And Mair's translation:

For this reason,
being victorious a hundred times in a hundred battles is not
the most excellent approach. EXHAUSTING  Causing the enemy forces to submit
without a battle is the most excellent approach.

 

[Mig]

On 7/18/2023 at 12:34 AM, Taoist Texts said:

Mair misunderstood this. The main point of this chapter and the entire book is to never go into battle. 

 

 

Thanks for the translation and observations. If the entire book is to never go into battle why battles have always existed especially in China? As for the translation why people translate: The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

[ChiDragon]

46 minutes ago, Mig said:

Thanks for the translation and observations. If the entire book is to never go into battle why battles have always existed especially in China? As for the translation why people translate: The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

I would interpret that the art of war is do not go into battle unless it cannot be avoided. The entire book is suggesting if a war was fought, then, the goal is how to win or lost with minimal cost.

Edited July 21, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Mig]

2 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

I would interpret that the art of war is do not go into battle unless it cannot be avoided. The entire book is suggesting if a war was fought, then, the goal is how to win or lost with minimal cost.

Isn't that what happened throughout all mankind history? and isn't there is no winner or loser in a war, everyone losses except those old geysers who send young kids to kill each other?

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Mig said:

why battles have always existed especially in China?

because there  was always an excess male population who due to economic conditions could not get a livelihood domestically. they were led bloodthirsty and inept generals who could only win by brute force. winning without a battle is for geniuses and geniuses are rare.

59 minutes ago, Mig said:

and isn't there is no winner or loser in a war,

no, on this planet there is;)  the winner takes it all.

1 hour ago, Mig said:

those old geysers who send young kids to kill each other?

you probably did not notice but young kids are quite bloodthirsty on their own

3 hours ago, Mig said:

As for the translation why people translate: The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

because they do not understand the main message. thats why they use imprecise terms like fighting. there are many ways to fight. but the book says the best way is by avoiding a battle which is a head-on clash. And the book does not say 'subdue', subdue presupposes a use of force. it says 'exhaust' which only happens if enemy's efforts fall into a void not into a battle.

 

in general the translations you quote are peppered by mistakes like 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChiDragon]

On 7/20/2023 at 8:26 PM, Mig said:

Isn't that what happened throughout all mankind history? and isn't there is no winner or loser in a war, everyone losses except those old geysers who send young kids to kill each other?

Within the scope of the art of war. A legitimate war is only fought for a good cause. Even though the war was won without a good cause, it was considered to be a lost. That is the philosophy of Suntze(孫子).

[Kojiro]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

Within the scope of the art of war. A legitimate war is only fought for a good cause. Even though the war was won without a good cause, it was considered to be a lost. That is the philosophy of Suntze(孫子).

this is not true, the end justifies the means in the art of war, according to Sun Tzu. War is based on deception and cunning, and it is fought just because the ruler orders it, whatever his reasons may be

Edited July 22, 2023 by Kojiro