Jing-Qi-Shen vs. Shen based cultivation systems

[anshino23]

After speaking with many different practitioners and thinking about this topic quite a lot, it seems to be quite the conundrum. 

 

From what I've learned there are basically two different types of systems. Traditional systems and Shen systems. 

 

The first is the traditional Jing -> Qi -> Shen cultivation path. According to the traditions I've looked into it is based around firstly changing the body to make it a fit vehicle for later spiritual work. For instance, one way of looking at this schematic (in my preliminary understanding) would be something like: 

 

1. Conditioning and preparing the physical body, herein both stretching the body, learning how to hang muscles and align the body properly, how to "sink the Qi" and eventually connecting/changing the entire fascia system. Usually takes many years of work just to get this step right to my understanding. This is a state of vibrant physical health already and there won't be coarse physical issues in my understanding. 
2.  Beginning the stage of jing to Qi, wherein jing is first stilled and consolidated. Usually, in my understanding, the 100 day virgin boy training or also known as the 100 day foundation. 
3. Awakening/building the LDT, which becomes an actual physical structure that moves and twists in your lower abdomen and is now an actual physical structure that also holds immense energetic properties. 
4. Microcosmic orbit
5. Then movement of yang qi and yin qi and the mixing of fire and water
6. Qi to Shen (leading to "white moon on the mountain peak")
7. Shen stage where the yin-shen is created and erupts from the crown and then needs to learn how to move and behave independently from the body. This is said to take a long time before it is fully matured and is done in retreat and away from society. 

 

On the other hand, we have systems that go the completely opposite way. 

 

They say forget about the body, forget about physical body transformation, none of that is really most important part. You should directly work on the Shen stage from the beginning, then everything will follow nicely and your body will remain healthy and even transform to stay healthy. They say that the body is completely impermanent so spending time creating physical structures inside it like a physical dantien is not necessary nor helpful for spiritual cultivation, you're really only interested in getting to the Shen stage so you can begin refining your spirit immediately since that is the only thing that lasts and that you can take with you upon death.

 

On top of this, these types of schools also claim that you're basically skipping decades of hard gruelling jing -> qi -> shen work where every aspect of your physical and emotional nature is changed. According to them, you simply get to the last stage immediately and then everything is refined much faster that way.  

 

So, my question is basically, are they just deluding themselves? Which of the systems is correct? Are they both correct, and if so, how or why?

 

Thanks 

Edited September 5, 2019 by anshino23

[Sebastian]

I would say that both perspectives exist, and both can indeed be correct. It's just a matter of emphasis. However I will also say that the body is important, at least in this lifetime. And from my perspective, skipping the body is a big mistake, because it also needs to transform to sustain the spiritual and energetic transformations that occur. 

 

But then again, enlightenment is enlightenment. It has nothing to do with how good your body looks. Some people have enlightened without doing much physical conditioning, and some enlightenment masters had terrible bodies and cared nothing about it. For example Sri Ramana Maharshi meditated until his cancer spread but he had no interest/will in even changing his position or seeing a doctor to heal it.

 

Some *very* famous/contemporary Tibetan Masters who are quote "enlightened" have diabetes, quite a lot in fact, because they are doing very heavy duty mental work to reach their spiritual heights - imagining intricate worlds of Buddhas, pure realms, without connecting to their bodies much.  Let me make clear though, it's not every Tibetan lineage, and I'm not judging these amazing Masters in any way. Just noticing and sharing what my Masters have cautioned. Diabetes isn't too hard to manage, and it also doesn't mean that these Masters aren't enlightened or anything because they have this disease.

 

So at the end of the day enlightenment is enlightenment. No method can claim to be the sole path to enlightenment. But the method you chose will have a real impact on your health. That's all. If you're already a very mental person, than a school that uses Zen riddles might not work too much for you. If you have high blood pressure, than a school that starts with working on the Upper Dan Tian would also seriously backfire. 

 

So I like the approach of Taoism. It's very practical. You start from the bottom up (Ming), but you're also working from the top down (Xing). You respect both your body and mind/ethics, and become a developed and balanced human being. When you make some spiritual progress, you benefit in an organic, whole way. It sounds exciting to skip the ground work, but you need to keep balance in mind.  

 

Hope this helps,

[Desmonddf]

4 hours ago, anshino23 said:

They say forget about the body, forget about physical body transformation, none of that is really most important part

 

Not exactly. What you described as Jing - Qi - Shen is one of the many forms of doing it, but there are other forms and this idea of "forget everything and become enlightened" is mostly a perversion of old teachings.

 

The idea is either to conform the Yang through the Yin or the Yin through the Yang.

 

By working from "bellow to above" you'll be able to make it so your body changes your mind and gets you closer to the Dao.

 

By working from "above to bellow" you'll make it so your mind changes your body and gets you closer to the Dao as well.

 

The ideal training, in my view at least, is to do BOTH things at the same time. Doing only one of them has great chances of making you spend years of training only to end up in poor health and maybe even insanity, or simply entering a state of, indeed, delusion.

 

In my personal practice I'm combining both perspectives and that has been giving wonderful results. What I need to change in my mind I change through the body, and what I need to change in my body I change through the mind.

 

This means, for instance, that if I want to become thiner, then I will look into what in my mind makes me fat. Seeing that, I will look to what I can do in my body in order to change my mind. If I still feel blockages in doing so, then I will look into my mind to look for the reason for that as well.

 

In the end I usually reach a point in which merely seeing something inside my mind or doing very few moves with my body (or even TCM and similar things) is already enough to grant me transformation in both body and mind. Balance is the key.

 

As for speed of transformation, I've managed to lose around 30kg ( around 70 pounds) in the last 2 years, while also increasing my lean mass and without losing strenght (even increasing it to a certain degree). I've also been able to estabilize my mood variations and start a family. Not to mention a series other things.

 

My energetic workings are being slowly cleaned and explained by a guide spirit and I'm becoming able to do a little bit of neidan every day, even though not following a especific routine - the spirit comes, teaches me about what I'm doing wrong, and then how to solve that.

I've gained a few skills in that, and I believe I'll be able to start a conscious neidan practice (based on looking for the destination and adapting myself in order to reach it instead of following certain formulas) very soon.

Theoretically a physical/corporeal teacher should give you this kind of treatment, teaching you not techniques but what you need in the moment to reach a certain step in order to get to the point where you can do the techniques by yourself while knowing what you're doing - only then teaching you the techniques.*

 

*If that's even needed

Edited September 5, 2019 by Desmonddf

[MIchael80]

9 hours ago, Desmonddf said:

 

Not exactly. What you described as Jing - Qi - Shen is one of the many forms of doing it, but there are other forms and this idea of "forget everything and become enlightened" is mostly a perversion of old teachings.

 

The idea is either to conform the Yang through the Yin or the Yin through the Yang.

 

By working from "bellow to above" you'll be able to make it so your body changes your mind and gets you closer to the Dao.

 

By working from "above to bellow" you'll make it so your mind changes your body and gets you closer to the Dao as well.

 

The ideal training, in my view at least, is to do BOTH things at the same time. Doing only one of them has great chances of making you spend years of training only to end up in poor health and maybe even insanity, or simply entering a state of, indeed, delusion.

 

In my personal practice I'm combining both perspectives and that has been giving wonderful results. What I need to change in my mind I change through the body, and what I need to change in my body I change through the mind.

 

This means, for instance, that if I want to become thiner, then I will look into what in my mind makes me fat. Seeing that, I will look to what I can do in my body in order to change my mind. If I still feel blockages in doing so, then I will look into my mind to look for the reason for that as well.

 

In the end I usually reach a point in which merely seeing something inside my mind or doing very few moves with my body (or even TCM and similar things) is already enough to grant me transformation in both body and mind. Balance is the key.

 

As for speed of transformation, I've managed to lose around 30kg ( around 70 pounds) in the last 2 years, while also increasing my lean mass and without losing strenght (even increasing it to a certain degree). I've also been able to estabilize my mood variations and start a family. Not to mention a series other things.

 

My energetic workings are being slowly cleaned and explained by a guide spirit and I'm becoming able to do a little bit of neidan every day, even though not following a especific routine - the spirit comes, teaches me about what I'm doing wrong, and then how to solve that.

I've gained a few skills in that, and I believe I'll be able to start a conscious neidan practice (based on looking for the destination and adapting myself in order to reach it instead of following certain formulas) very soon.

Theoretically a physical/corporeal teacher should give you this kind of treatment, teaching you not techniques but what you need in the moment to reach a certain step in order to get to the point where you can do the techniques by yourself while knowing what you're doing - only then teaching you the techniques.*

 

*If that's even needed

Really like that!

.......that is a high level teaching!

[freeform]

16 hours ago, anshino23 said:

They say forget about the body, forget about physical body transformation, none of that is really most important part. You should directly work on the Shen stage from the beginning, then everything will follow nicely and your body will remain healthy and even transform to stay healthy.

 

It's a great topic. So actually I believe there are 3 ways overall - not just the 2... (assuming we're focusing on spiritual cultivation)

 

The way you haven't mentioned (but actually described to a certain extent) is the 'consciousness only' method - what most people think of as Buddhist or meditative practice. This is the idea that your body is not real, it's impermanent and it's a hindrance to your consciousness.

 

The other approach is 'top-down' - the idea here is you transform your Shen through various tantric methods (by tantric, I mean working with the underlying energetic framework)... The changes on the Shen level then cascade down and transform your body in turn. This is, for example, Max's Kunlun method.

 

The classical approach is the 'bottom-up' approach. It's as you described - you work from the densest aspects, layer by layer, eventually moving into the realms of cosnciousness.

 

So here's my own experience. Baring in mind that I've had some experience in all three forms of practice and I've spent several years full-time, travelling and meeting teachers all around the world, and particularly all over Asia. I've had the great fortune to meet some extremely advanced teachers and have witnessed things that appear pretty miraculous. By this I'm saying that although I'm no 'master' myself, I have dedicated years to searching and decades to practicing these arts... in a very determined way. So my opnions aren't so much from books, but from personal experience and discussions and meetings with people.

 

The first approach - consciousness only. This simply doesn't work for most people.

 

As in 99.9999999% of people. It does work for some - but these people are usually ones who have achieved what's known as 'Path Knowledge' in a past life (or a similar attaniment in the Jhannas). Basically this means they are 80% of the way to full enlightenment and have managed to let go of the majority of their karma - and although they are still on the cycle of death and rebirth, they generally do not accumulate any more karma, and the karma they 'fruit' is generally of the most wholesome kind. They can effortlessly enter samadhi, they manifest all sorts of abilities etc.

 

These are the 'spiritual geniuses' of the world. I've trained with one (western) Buddhist teacher that demonstrates this. He went to a meditation class in his early 20's and discovered that he could see into peoples bodies, pinpoint illnesses, and access information about their lives (this is the first time he sat)... Within a couple more attempts he entered smadhi and then through a range of coincidences met high level buddhist teachers, discovered he already knew by heart much of the Pali cannon etc. For him, practice is mostly on the level of consciousness - he sits, enters jhanna, and is able to make internal change on the causal level.

 

The way he teaches his students, however is quite different. His focus is on body first... then moving onto meditative practice... then body-based vipassana. He takes a 'bottom up' approach - however his toolset is not quite as advanced as the Daoist set for this approach and I've not seen many of his students advance that far.

 

The second approach - Top-down.

 

This approach doesn't deny the body. But it starts with Shen (or Ling, technically) and moves down. I was also very much into this approach. I trained with Max for a several years. I lived at his house for a couple of weeks at a time, doing this work. However, I started to have doubts about the method. I saw lots of people damage themselves badly. I saw a lot of delusion in the school - and it seemed the only people that made good, safe progress did in fact start with a 'bottom-up' approach before coming to Kunlun. In fact Max himself had decades of 'bottom-up' training with quite traditional teachers. I began to lose trust in the method (I was quite sad about that as it was the first time I discovered that all this stuff is very real, tangible and very powerful).

 

The bottom-up approach.

 

When I started to get into the 'inner door' parts of a couple of schools in Asia, that's when I began meeting some extremely advanced people. Both in terms of the meditative aspects, skill with energy, alchemy, healing, siddhi etc. I have met one person who I'd consider 'fully enlightened' and they came from the 'bottom up' approach.

 

When you start working on aspects of consciousness with advanced teachers (that expect results from you - or you're out), you begin to realise just how much internal strength, stamina, effort and energy is required to achieve something like Jhanna. I know a lot of people think they've achieved Jhanna... but let's just say that maybe they've been misled on what Jhanna really is... For example as you enter and stabilise the 1st Jhanna, you can discern the full cause and effect chain on any body or mind you choose to focus on... that sounds abstract... as an example the whole of Chinese Medicine and it's understandings of cause and effect came from insight at the level of 1st Jhanna... If you enter 1st Jhanna at the moments before death your body will not rot. After death in 1st Jhanna, you're able to choose when and as whom you are reborn...

 

To even get a chance at entering 1st Jhanna you first must be able to enter and stay in samadhi for several days straight... That in itself is a superhuman ability... Imagine the most intense mental focus - like attempting to solve the hardest puzzle you've ever solved - and keeping that level of focus completely steady and unwavering for 72hrs - and not straining, pushing or using any effort to do so.

 

To be able to do that you need to have a lot of energy. Your channels must be clear. Your Shen must be bright as the sun. Your body must be strong and resilient. and that's all achieved by the bottom-up method.

 

I realise I've been using buddhist terminology - because actually at the higher stages it's easier to communicate, but this is certainly the case with the Daoist approach too - just substitute Jhanna with Shen Ming, and samadhi with Xin Zhai etc. In fact I believe that the Daoist approach overall in the preparatory stage is very much superior to the Buddhist appraoch. Once you get to the higher stages though, things are less differentiated.

 

The Daoist understanding is that the body is the mind. So when you're working with the body, you're also working with the mind - it's just approaching change from the direction of the body is far less prone to delusion and error. Your Ren Mai is either open or not (there are specific physiological signs for it) - an open Ren Mai also has specific qualities of mind - but knowing whether you've achieved them is almost impossible (unless youre teacher is able and willing to enter into Jhanna to check )

 

There is much wisdom in the bottom-up approach. It's all understandable, discernable, testable and makes 'sense'. The Top down approach is the opposite - you must completely drop any attempt at making sense and surrender your whole self to your teacher and the method... The only teachers I met that I could fully trust in this way have been bottom up teachers... and they don't want all this dependency - they want you to figure stuff out by yourself - to understand what you're doing and why.

 

Anyway - I hope this makes at least some sense. I know it's all a bit rambling, but I don't have the time to make it more coherent. Happy to answer any questions to clarify anything here though.

[anshino23]

Thank you for the replies everyone. Very interesting food for thought. 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

If you enter 1st Jhanna at the moments before death your body will not rot. After death in 1st Jhanna, you're able to choose when and as whom you are reborn...

 

Does 1st jhana then mean the attainment of the yin or yang shen the subtle immortal body? Does 1st jhana mean the same as being a heavenly Immortal? 

 

Some of the systems I've read about claim to immediately create your actual yin-shen during initiation. They describe the flowers falling (one of the last steps described in Taoist Yoga by Charles L'uk for instance) and the amorphous baby-Shen beginning to take form above your head as it exits your crown. You then have access to the yin-shen immediately and it's wrapped in the golden cocoon of its lineage so not subject to harm from demons or negative influences allowing it to safely grow.

 

Then, according to them, the 3 Hun and 7 Po souls are merged through Zuowang until it becomes the immortal densified yang shen that can be inhabited upon death and before. They say that houtian systems are based on throwing a ball into the air (jing->qi->shen), that is, working against gravity, instead of just absorbing primordial Qi through the Baihui and going the shen->qi->jing way. Meaning that they say that since you absorb primordial Qi through your Baihui, there's no use for celibacy or all the stringent body-training approaches (prolonged retreats, developing the body, etc.) since the Shen will simply deconvert into Qi and then into jing to support the body.

 

Meanwhile you reach immortality manyfold faster since you work directly on "soul" refinement and even if you die before you reach the complete yang shen level, you can simply continue in the higher realms since you already have the yin-shen formed. 

 

Those are the claims at least. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by anshino23

[anshino23]

15 hours ago, Sebastian said:

But then again, enlightenment is enlightenment. It has nothing to do with how good your body looks. Some people have enlightened without doing much physical conditioning, and some enlightenment masters had terrible bodies and cared nothing about it. For example Sri Ramana Maharshi meditated until his cancer spread but he had no interest/will in even changing his position or seeing a doctor to heal it.

 

 

I guess it depends on what you mean by enlightenment  Can you share some light on what you mean when you say enlightenment? Do you think Sri Ramana Maharshi could have changed his body at the causal level if he wanted to? Or do you think it's possible he was just in a samadhi type state (of which there are many different in my understanding)? In the Diamond Sutra for instance the Buddha talks about five different types of eyes. The Daoists talk about 5 different types of immortality. 

[Sebastian]

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Can you share some light on what you mean when you say enlightenment? Do you think Sri Ramana Maharshi could have changed his body at the causal level if he wanted to? 

 

These questions are above my pay-grade to be honest. When I answer I try to answer the person who asked the question and not the question. I could answer you, but I would have to go an intellectual space. I prefer to respond and balance the energy that asked the question.

 

For example, the mind is always doubting and trying to find assurances that its moving in the right direction. It is trying to solve everything and come to a clear-cut answer. But enlightenment, no matter the level, can never be a matter of following practice A or practice B or a 1-2-3 process.

 

It's like we're cultivators worrying about the best spiritual brand to be stamped with. Even if you get branded with the best stamp, and you're sure many people have enlightened with the same stamp, at the end of the day your path will still be unique. It won't be Longmen that will enlighten you, it will be your subjective and sincere efforts over a long period of time.

 

The mind wants a clear cut answer and has no tolerance of uncertainty. But Tao is very gentle and allowing of many different ways. For example, if you identify as a die hard Longmen practitioner and think all other paths are weak in comparison, you might skip out on meeting a Tibetan Master one day who was visiting your city, and maybe he would have "pointed out your mind", and helped you go all the way. 

 

But since you asked, I'll try to answer. Honestly, I have no idea if he could re-materialize his body or not. But he was considered a Saint. To give you two more examples of Masters that reached spiritual heights without much body preparation, Sri RamaKrishna, who also had cancer eventually but preferred to keep helping people pretty much full-time instead of seeking treatment. And the Six Patriarch of Zen, he enlightened listening to the Diamond Sutra, and then his body had to "catch up" for many years which was a grueling process.

 

At the end of the day, whatever happens, happens. Que sera sera. Just take small steps, stay sincere and do what's natural. What's natural is usually revealed by the heart or strange coincidences, and not the result of reaching a conclusion with the intellectual mind. Even if we review each practice system in this thread, have 10 scales for each, and make the best decision.... at the end of the day, we achieved nothing. Just firing up the intellect mind I mean. That doesn't mean your question, or any question is not significant. It is, it is a cry from your soul. 

 

Anyways, hope it helps.

 

 

[dwai]

3 hours ago, anshino23 said:

 

I guess it depends on what you mean by enlightenment  Can you share some light on what you mean when you say enlightenment? Do you think Sri Ramana Maharshi could have changed his body at the causal level if he wanted to? Or do you think it's possible he was just in a samadhi type state (of which there are many different in my understanding)? In the Diamond Sutra for instance the Buddha talks about five different types of eyes. The Daoists talk about 5 different types of immortality. 

I'd like to take a swing at that

 

Ramana Maharshi is considered a Jivanmukta - Liberated while Alive. What does that mean? It means he is no longer identified with the physical body/mind mechanism. For him, the body didn't matter. He was of the category of "Awareness/Consciousness only". In fact, per the Hindu traditions, Ramana Maharshi was a type 2 enlightened being - whose mind had been eliminated (manonāsha). There are 3 types of enlightened beings per those traditions.

 

To add a comment on @freeform's post about the difficulty with "consciousness only" way, is that the karmic tendencies of most people are too strong to be easily successful this way. Most won't even understand intellectually what is being taught, even though it is the simplest path to follow, primarily because their minds are too scattered, or too polluted. In my own experience, it all started to make sense after spending good part of 15-16 years preparing myself via taijiquan, yoga, meditation practice. One day, after my teacher's initiation (call it lineage transmission or even shaktipat), it all started to make sense. And then one day, total clarity about what that consciousness only path was.

 

It IS the easiest path, and if you can follow it, you need not do anything. But this path was meant for people of a different time - not modern, over-stimulated minds and bodies, pumped full of chemicals. 

 

To get back to the topic at hand -- 

 

There are many yogis who have various siddhis such as being able to stop the heart, not breath for prolonged periods of time, not eat or drink water for weeks or months (or at all), making tumors appear and disappear at will, etc etc. Some of them are enlightened, some are not.  

Then there are Yogis who live on for multiple hundreds or thousands of years - famous of these today are the Kriya Yoga lineage, Babaji, et al. These are both Enlightened as well as retain a corporeal body. 

 

[anshino23]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

In my own experience, it all started to make sense after spending good part of 15-16 years preparing myself via taijiquan, yoga, meditation practice. One day, after my teacher's initiation (call it lineage transmission or even shaktipat), it all started to make sense. And then one day, total clarity about what that consciousness only path was.

 

It IS the easiest path, and if you can follow it, you need not do anything. But this path was meant for people of a different time - not modern, over-stimulated minds and bodies, pumped full of chemicals. 

 

 

Is the consciousness only stuff the same as the light crowd with dives, etc. that you're referring to? One of the things that's weird about me is how non-linear that stuff is. You have no markers to know you've actually attained a state. You have the level system that Jeff uses, but I'm not very comfortable with it, since it doesn't really signify your actual attainment, but more your "frequency" range as he calls it and not your clarity. IMHO, clarity is most important, because without it, it doesn't matter what level you are, you're pretty much just as ignorant as before. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts. 

[anshino23]

10 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

hi, which school have you been talking about here? I'd like to read more about it

 

 

Xiao Yao Pai (XYP) mostly but also Stillness Movement are both based on this principle. Stillness Movement use physical practices in my understanding as a qigong form that Lomax calls neigong that opens the chakras and uses non-linear movement patterns that draw a lot of light into the body and with remote transmission one's LDT is "lighted on fire" and then one soon comes in contact with what they call "higher levels" and "high energies" which I believe refers to Shen stuff in Daoist terminology.

 

XYP uses the contact of what they call a Fu Fa Shen who is allegedly an immortal Xian who binds to your higher chakras (basically possesses you in a mutually beneficial contract - like a Guru bond) and then you -- through their practices -- absorb primordial Qi in through your Baihui which is transduced/filtered down through the immortal Fu Fa Shen. The immortal Fu Fa Shen also allegedly guides you in daily matters, takes control of your body for the exact needs you have for your cultivation, takes control of your breathing when it's needed for neigong purposes, etc. According to them it's an extremely efficacious and fast system that jumps over the entire houtian pathway of transforming the body (the hard way, with celibacy, retreats etc.) but instead you just absorb Shen directly which is then transformed and used by the body to open its channels, build the LDT and then eventually even an immortal spirit comes and connects the Du and Ren meridians for you. Supposedly it was used only by the Huang Di and was hidden until the 1970s. They also say that Tai Shang Lao Jun watches over the initiation process and all the immortals. 

Edited September 6, 2019 by anshino23

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

Is the consciousness only stuff the same as the light crowd with dives, etc. that you're referring to?

No. Consciousness only is the way of pure Nondual traditions - e.g., Advaita Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism. Some tend to de-emphasize energetics (such as Advaita Vedanta or Kashmir Shavisim's Sambhavopaya -- the First of three practical methods) as they are phenomena known to/experienced by the consciousness (awareness). It is about knowing without an iota of doubt, what one's True Nature is - Pure awareness, in which all existence manifests and de-manifests. 

2 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

One of the things that's weird about me is how non-linear that stuff is. You have no markers to know you've actually attained a state. You have the level system that Jeff uses, but I'm not very comfortable with it, since it doesn't really signify your actual attainment, but more your "frequency" range as he calls it and not your clarity. IMHO, clarity is most important, because without it, it doesn't matter what level you are, you're pretty much just as ignorant as before. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts. 

To me, clarity means always being grounded in and as our root awareness (Pure consciousness). I've had many wonderful experiences with Jeff, Tom & co. Also many wonderful experiences by the grace of my master, but never got confused/carried away as the clarity remains. 

 

In the wisdom/insight path (some call it jnana yoga), this clarity is of paramount importance. Advaita Vedanta mainly deals with this. Lets other traditions like yoga and tantra deal with the energy way or physical way. 

 

If we consider Kashmir Shaivism, there are actually four paths.

• Anupaya upaya - Pathless Path. Not meant for most seekers (means you are born like that, or with sufficiently less karmic tendencies that you can become enlightened in a flash). 
• Sambhavopaya - This is the path of consciousness. It is meant for those seekers whose minds are purified and are able to focus (already have clarity). This is the fastest/direct path. 
• Shaktopaya - The way of energy - this involves working with the energetics etc. This is the intermediate path.
• Anvopaya - This is the way of the body - preparing the body, preparing the mind, opening the channels, etc etc. This is the longest path. 

[freeform]

4 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Does 1st jhana then mean the attainment of the yin or yang shen the subtle immortal body? Does 1st jhana mean the same as being a heavenly Immortal?

 

No.

 

Jhannas 5 to 7 generally results in what is known as 'Rainbow Body' - where the '5 Lights' have not fully merged yet. At death you disappear into a rainbow of light - often leaving behind a few parts of your body. At that stage you're still bound to reincarnate (although not for up to 32,000 years if you wish).

 

Jhannas 8 to 9 result in the 'Light Body' - where the body dissolves into light completely - at death nothing is left behind (unless you wish). At this point, there is no longer any need to reincarnate, ever...

 

At Jhanna 4, you tend to see all the hallmarks of an 'immortal' - in that all the rules of physics, biology etc break down completely - they can enter complete stasis (as Dwai says) - it's not so much a siddhi as a natural side-effect of entering this stage of practice. However, if they do choose to develop other siddhis (teleportation, levitation etc.) these are all possible at this stage of development.

 

4 hours ago, anshino23 said:

They describe the flowers falling

 

Classically that is an attainment at the Jhanna 2 level... It is followed by 'The Lightning Strike of Ling' - which manifests as a bright lightning strike in front of the person - it's visible to everyone. At this stage, people who're in the process of stabilising Jhanna 2 often can't help but affect normal people (usually negatively)... Ordinary people tend to have psychological and emotional breakdowns when confronted with the purity of shen arising from the person (not that they realise the reason for their breakdown). That's why it's generally worked on during a long, isolated retreat (usually a year or more).

 

5 hours ago, anshino23 said:

the Shen will simply deconvert into Qi and then into jing to support the body.

 

Yes - I've heard this myself in Max's school. The reality was that most people developed mental illness and stopped practice... or worse - began to think they're Jesus or Babaji, or Guan Yin, and became fully absorbed in their delusions. I only met 3 people that had really good success with the system - one had both some karmic 'background' that helped as well as two decades of 'bottom-up' training... The other one also had decades of training, fully going through the 'nei gong process'... whether they are immortal or enlightened I don't know - although they had many siddhis they didn't exhibit what I later came to understand as signs of enlightenment... The third one was Max (and he also had 30 years of prior training).

 

There are several signs of a fully realized person... you could maybe ask the teacher you're talking about to demonstrate it? (incidentally, most higher level teachers realise the importance of reassurance - so they are happy to demonstrate their attainments - it is not taboo to ask - unless they don't really have the attainment, then it's usually a problem )

 

One sign that's pretty mindblowing is omniscience... basically - knowledge of everything. You could ask them any question about the past or future and they'd be able to answer. (Although generally future is not talked about because it may affect your Ming/karma which in itself has karmic consequences)... But you could ask them what happened at xxxx coordinates on the afternoon of February 21st 1907 - and they'd be able to give you a specific account, at whatever level of detail you'd like.

 

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

To add a comment on @freeform's post about the difficulty with "consciousness only" way, is that the karmic tendencies of most people are too strong to be easily successful this way. Most won't even understand intellectually what is being taught, even though it is the simplest path to follow, primarily because their minds are too scattered, or too polluted.

 

Yes - this was the primary way in the 'golden age' of spirituality...

 

As we are in the midst of Kali Yuga (the 'dark age of spirituality') this path is closed to the majority of people.

 

Kali Yuga is particularly pernicious as it makes spiritual delusions much more likely... and gurus untrustworthy...

 

16 minutes ago, dwai said:

• Anupaya upaya - Pathless Path. Not meant for most seekers (means you are born like that, or with sufficiently less karmic tendencies that you can become enlightened in a flash). 
• Sambhavopaya - This is the path of consciousness. It is meant for those seekers whose minds are purified and are able to focus (already have clarity). This is the fastest/direct path. 
• Shaktopaya - The way of energy - this involves working with the energetics etc. This is the intermediate path.
• Anvopaya - This is the way of the body - preparing the body, preparing the mind, opening the channels, etc etc. This is the longest path. 

 

Yeah that's pretty interesting. It correlates directly with the Daoist lower, middle and higher vehicles of cultivation. Except to the Daoists (at least to the majority of them) each aspect had to be worked on in turn... starting with the body, then energy, then 'meditation' - then simply being.

[dwai]

 

28 minutes ago, freeform said:

Kali Yuga is particularly pernicious as it makes spiritual delusions much more likely... and gurus untrustworthy...

 

Yes and no. We have to develop our intuition. I found that in my case, the right path presented itself when I was ready and listening. The right guidance came in form of dream teachers, as well as physical ones  

However that maybe due to karmic influence from previous lives good work. 

28 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah that's pretty interesting. It correlates directly with the Daoist lower, middle and higher vehicles of cultivation. Except to the Daoists (at least to the majority of them) each aspect had to be worked on in turn... starting with the body, then energy, then 'meditation' - then simply being.

That makes sense and rings a bell too. In temple style, we are told that the training goes in 7 year cycles. 7 years of working with the physical body, jing and qi; 7 years with focus on  shen; 7 years of working with focus on meditation emptiness, and then repeat and refine again and again (I'll have to double check). The training and practice should never stop. 

[freeform]

50 minutes ago, Wuschel said:

 

does being in samadhi & beyond transcend karma/release blockages etc without even facing them?

 

No - not in itself. But it builds capacity to be able to do it, if that makes sense. 

 

In Buddhist practice it’s often done in Vipassana practice - which is like using insight to clear karma... samadhi or any depth of concentration increases your ability to do that.

 

In Daoist practice Karma is cleared through a number of practices like ‘burning the channels’ which is an alchemical approach.

 

The Daoist approach is less of a ‘facing’ your karma - it just gets ‘burned’ away.

 

Vipassana involves facing the internal root of the karma while remaining completely equanimous - and cutting through it with the sharp knife of ‘insight’.

[Daomode]

The Shen reverse process people could be perfectly deluded, it sounds too fantastic to skip all the years of very hard work. I haven't seen any attainments from these people who claim to be able to skip this and just start with Shen, just a lot of talk.

 

Anyone can go to the initiation and get their crown open, skipping a lot of years of internal alchemy, even my mum could get this epic achievement just by attending!

 

I'm quite skeptical about it, maybe it's as beautiful as it sounds tho, who knows, I just want to see proof, and videos of people having spontaneous movements is not proof. I'll go to the initiation because it's the only thing left to explore, but I find very improbable to achieve such achievements by just attending one initiation. I'll go without any expectation, I'll let you guys now.

 

Daomode.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Daomode

[voidisyinyang]

15 hours ago, Daomode said:

The Shen reverse process people could be perfectly deluded, it sounds too fantastic to skip all the years of very hard work. I haven't seen any attainments from these people who claim to be able to skip this and just start with Shen, just a lot of talk.

 

Anyone can go to the initiation and get their crown open, skipping a lot of years of internal alchemy, even my mum could get this epic achievement just by attending!

 

I'm quite skeptical about it, maybe it's as beautiful as it sounds tho, who knows, I just want to see proof, and videos of people having spontaneous movements is not proof. I'll go to the initiation because it's the only thing left to explore, but I find very improbable to achieve such achievements by just attending one initiation. I'll go without any expectation, I'll let you guys now.

 

Daomode.

 

I just read most of the book "Blazing Splendours" - amazing Tibetan yogi book. The nuns do this training of several sessions a day of NO BLINKING - with a red dust put on their eyelids - and this develops their tummo skill. A nunnery had 200 skilled tummo yogis due to just mind yoga. Pretty awesome. So I can do this "no blinking" just by "flexing my pineal gland" as I call it. So I slept outside last night and I generated tummo simply by using this no blinking technique.

[effilang]

I just wan to chime in here to correct some of these statements:

 

Quote

XYP uses the contact of what they call a Fu Fa Shen who is allegedly an immortal Xian

 

I often find the word immortal quite undignified, seeing as most souls are not distinguished in evolution primarily by their ability to live beyond the death of the physical body, for that is a common characteristic among all souls, but rather by their state of resonance with the qualities of the primordial consciousness and their level of dissolution and integration with the subtlety of the Dao.

 

Quote

who binds to your higher chakras (basically possesses you in a mutually beneficial contract - like a Guru bond)

 

This is not right. A soul that has taken up the role of Hu Fa Shen under Tai Shang, as a representative of Xiao Yao Pai, is no more "bound" to the soul or energy of its student, than the rays of the sun are bound to the body of the person warmed by it.

 

No form of binding ever takes place, nor is there ever a necessity for an unbinding.

All practitioners of Xiantian Dao Yin Shu are as free as God/Dao made them.

Free in cognition, free in speech and free in action.

There are no contracts and there is certainly no possession.

 

Possession is typically an act of the displacement or suppression of consciousness, which is carried out by a soul whose own degree of evolution and power is less than that of the persons' body whom it wishes to occupy. Due to its inability to do so by force of itself, it must in some way either convince the incarnate soul, or have the incarnate soul convince itself that it should depress its own consciousness to make space for that of the possessing entity, which is then able to assume some level of control over the living aspects of the incarnate being. It is as a result of this lowering of ones consciousness, voluntarily, that when one is in a trance they tend to lose some measure of their cognitive capabilities, fine motor control, appear unintelligible, drool, mumble incoherently and possess the face of one who does not appear to be "present".

 

These are the common symptoms of a person possessed whose consciousness has been lowered to accommodate another.

The possessing spirit's vibration is lower, thus the incarnate being must lower its own consciousness so a handshake can occur to enable a temporal symbiosis.

 

I would strongly advise against these kinds of practices involving possession.

If you're not fully conscious, if you have to enter any form of trance induced by drugs or other influences that displace you, and if every interaction doesn't help your consciousness expand; abandon it immediately.

 

The nature of interaction with a Hu Fa Shen is nothing like the above. 

Firstly, all interaction with Hu Fa Shen is carried out in a completely lucid, conscious and non-trance state.

Practitioners can move against the guidance of Hu Fa Shen, challenge their suggestions and go their own way.

The right of free will is a divine privilege that none can hijack.

 

Hu Fa Shen's consciousness is more refined and subtle that our own consciousness, and it is we that must attune to IT, or, they make themselves denser to interact with us, but we never, ever SHRINK qualitatively in order to attune to HFS; we always expand - and this is done through tranquility, calm and a refined heart which facilitates the connection.

 

The development of the consciousness in interaction with Hu Fa Shen always results in our qualitative and quantitative expansion, not a contraction.

 

Again, please be weary of all this.

Any spirit or soul that demands that you enter a trance, lower your consciousness or reduce yourself to some stuttering, drugged puppet is not higher than you, but lower; and understand that the status of being disembodied or discarnate does not serve as evidence of the degree of evolution of a soul. A low evolution disembodied soul residing in the collective consciousness of a low vibrational realm close to the physical (Taiji), will maintain the same quality of being in its incarnate state after it has entered a physical body. Do not assume that because a soul is not in a body that somehow it is to be indiscriminately revered or respected or looked up to. No. Absolutely not. Be weary of this trap and use discernment by interrogating their ethics and their expression of love, compassion, wisdom and power.

As regards to "mutually beneficial".

 

The benefit for Hu Fa Shen which is in mergence with the Dao is only that it is able to aid in the evolution of consciousness by bringing others closer to the Dao from which, at its level, it acts out of as an integrated particle of the totality; just as a drop of water may act within the sea it has dissolved into. It's will, direction, care and intentions have merged with that of the Dao. This is non-separation from the primordial consciousness where the acquired mind has dissolved into the collective mind of the highest.

 

Quote

and then you -- through their practices -- absorb primordial Qi in through your Baihui which is transduced/filtered down through the immortal Fu Fa Shen. 

 

During practice, our consciousness is enveloped by the sea of consciousness of the primordial within which your Hu Fa Shen resides and of which its own consciousness is an interconnected whole.

 

It is like diving into an ocean and becoming the ocean.

 

Our consciousness begins to condition itself to that of the environment it is surrounded by and so from dense it becomes more subtle.

Our practice is classified as Wu Wei.

 

It is a process of transformation or attunement through direct interaction. In the same way that we may become smarter by sharing conversation with smart people, or wetter by entering a pool. Likewise during practice our consciousness is made more subtle by being enveloped by the consciousness of one with a far more developed structure (Hu Fa Shen).

 

Of course there are more practical details, but this is the foundation. It is a practice of mergence through spiritual synchronisation.

 

Quote

The immortal Fu Fa Shen also allegedly guides you in daily matters, takes control of your body for the exact needs you have for your cultivation, takes control of your breathing when it's needed for neigong purposes, etc

 

The manner in which these ideas are being communicated, continuously express an undertone of possession, which indicates a critical misunderstanding of our tradition.

Practice takes place, when you invite your Hu Fa Shen to practice, not other wise.

 

There are instances when Hu Fa Shen will carry out works of refinement on you outside of a formally requested practice, but these are at the subtle level and do not interfere in anyway with daily activities. You will merely, if you can, feel that Hu Fa Shen has connected and has started to bridging subtle energy into your body. This may be because you need it, it may be to catalyse a time sensitive transformation of energy, it may be to inspire you, it may be to support you in a difficult or challenging situation etc - but it is always a subtle, loving and non-disturbing supplementation and feels blissful, expanding and pleasant.

 

Quote

According to them it's an extremely efficacious and fast system

 

Remarkably so. Primarily due to the ability to directly connect the consciousness to the realm of subtlety of the Dao and bridge the quality of that energy directly into our body to clean out the turbid and coarse emotional states and energetic disharmonies within the body. Think of it like plugging a hose from your consciousness to the pool of collective consciousness where Hu Fa Shen resides and drawing that into the body to augment the condition and quality of your own energy to match theirs.

 

Quote

that jumps over the entire houtian pathway of transforming the body (the hard way, with celibacy, retreats etc.)

 

This is not right.

While there are numerous differences between Xiantian Xiu Dao and Houtian Xiu Dao, fundamentally what differentiates us are several factors:

 

- The quality of the energy source is of the most subtle kind which we funnel directly into our consciousness to expand it by help of Hu Fa Shen who resides in that realm and is able to guide our consciousness into it by helping to change the vibration and density of our own to match its residence in the deeper realms of the Dao.

- The guidance of Hu Fa Shen in practice and their ability to direct practice from a point of view which sees the totality of our being in all its dimensions of existence; physical, energetic and at the level of the consciousness and its associated karmic history.

 

We do not jump over the entire pathway of Houtian, in fact we share many similarities, but also have points of divergence.

Our system is like cultivation from both ends simultaneously, coming from below and from above.

 

Retreats are not necessary, but we strongly encourage group practice as the presence of multiple Hu Fa Shen in one space amplifies the strength of transformation, which allows all the consciousnesses of the practitioners in the group to more easily expand and dissolve into the collective pool of the Hu Fa Shen's own luminousity, and it is a great way to practice expanding ones own consciousness beyond the body to merge with that of those around him of a similar vibration; as this mimics the state of existence within the subtle realms of the Dao which is constructed in a similar way. Other than that, loving-sex is the second best way to practice the union of consciousness within the physical body. That is why our bits are designed in such a way to connect both bodies into one body. All this physical world is just a school for the practice of the state of the union of consciousness and the elimination of egoic self-importance and personal identity.

 

Quote

but instead you just absorb Shen directly which is then transformed and used by the body to open its channels, build the LDT and then eventually even an immortal spirit comes and connects the Du and Ren meridians for you.

 

Correct, except that Ren and Du meridians are connected anyway. If they were not, everybody would be dead.

Rather, we are activating them on a deeper level which is triggered by a particular grade of energy.

In other words, different grades of energy can enable different functions of meridians.

 

Quote

Supposedly it was used only by the Huang Di and was hidden until the 1970s.

 

Yes, Huangdi inherited it from Guangzhengzi, however Xiantian Dao Yin Shu was present in unnamed forms before us since the first growths of consciousness on the planet; we simply carry on this art.

 

Yes, it was in the 70s that Tai Shang granted us permission to share the art publicly, as Shifu sought a way to help his TCM patients cure their imbalances at the root level of the consciousness where they all originate in the form of improper attitudes, emotional disturbances, poor ethics and karma.

 

Quote

They also say that Tai Shang Lao Jun watches over the initiation process and all the immortals. 

 

They are all merged into one sea of collective consciousness from which they come out into Taiji to manifest as individuals to carry out the works of aiding the evolution of denser souls.

The candidate Hu Fa Shen always appear at the initiation to receive their new students. Many people see their Hu Fa Shen immediately at the moment of initiation.

 

Here are a bunch of testimonials if you want to have a look, including some new video ones from the first initiation we had in India in August:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/xiaoyaopaitaoism/permalink/973319889399676/

 

Regards,

Edited September 19, 2019 by effilang

[anshino23]

8 hours ago, effilang said:

This is not right. A soul that has taken up the role of Hu Fa Shen under Tai Shang, as a representative of Xiao Yao Pai, is no more "bound" to the soul or energy of its student, than the rays of the sun are bound to the body of the person warmed by it.

 

No form of binding ever takes place, nor is there ever a necessity for an unbinding.

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant by possession. From what I've learned from @Jeff the possession that takes place is a sort of bond that happens in the higher chakras. This is like a hub on one's own motherboard which allows the Hu Fa Shen to take control when mutually beneficial. It is similar to what is observed in what Jeff calls a "true Guru bond". I'm not talking about possession in a negative way. Perhaps Jeff can share a few more words on what he meant by it. And maybe the two of you disagree on what happens during initiation, a process he has observed before. 

 

Regardless, it is claims and personal experiences of you both. It ultimately comes down to whether one chooses to trust you. There's no way to confirm or deny whether a bond is created if one is not at a level to be able to ascertain what actually happens during initiation. It would be like an alien inserting probes into you on an extremely subtle nano layer of your body, and then you say, "nope, nothing of that sort is happening". I mean, you can't really know. What we can observe is whether the effect is beneficial or not. And according to you and the testimonials, it is beneficial and certainly not harmful so that's good. 

 

8 hours ago, effilang said:

The benefit for Hu Fa Shen which is in mergence with the Dao is only that it is able to aid in the evolution of consciousness by bringing others closer to the Dao from which, at its level, it acts out of as an integrated particle of the totality; just as a drop of water may act within the sea it has dissolved into. It's will, direction, care and intentions have merged with that of the Dao. This is non-separation from the primordial consciousness where the acquired mind has dissolved into the collective mind of the highest.

 

The way you explained it in the past was better and is how I meant it. Your Hu Fa Shen is cultivating, your masters are cultivating and you are cultivating. The bond the beings make with you and all the other Dao Yu is a mutually beneficial exchange. Everyone cultivates and benefits. That's the way it was explained. Not that the Hu Fa Shens were perfect, nor that the master was perfect, but that everyone is continually refining themselves.

 

8 hours ago, effilang said:

Here are a bunch of testimonials if you want to have a look, including some new video ones from the first initiation we had in India in August:

 

Yes, I'm quite aware of all the testimonials, thank you. But there's unfortunately no difference between what is observed and what happens during Zifagong or Shaktipat transmission. I've attended retreats where this exact thing happens, spontaneous movement, visions, all kinds of stuff. Also having the feeling of being guided, at that time, feeling of being guided by the primordially intelligent Shakti energy.  Dakinis or higher immortal beings flying in and taking control of a practictioner's vocal cords (something you also describe in one of the testimonials in the long Xiao Yao Pai thread) and singing a beautiful tune through an unknown language. Problem is that most of those experiences were temporary and didn't lead to lasting change, similar to what freeform is talking about.  

 

What would be very nice to hear is to hear from people that have practiced at least a year or longer and what changes they have observed. You come from a Houtian background yourself so your results can't really be applied the same way I don't think. 

 

I've spoken with some practitioners that have practiced for more than 10-15 years beforehand, and have been practicing Xiao Yao Pai for at least 2 years, and they say they are not even sure that they have a Hu Fa Shen or that they are being guided. They say it is so subtle. That it was very noticeable just after initiation, but then gradually it disappeared. 

 

My point being that maybe someone needs to be quite refined and advanced beforehand, to really notice and observe what is going on, and perhaps even to significantly progress through the Path. But perhaps you say it is different in XYP. 

 

It is like @freeform mentions, the one's he saw that were actually successful in the Shen approach were those that came with a long background of Houtian. If I'm not mistaken you also had before you started houtian a background in martial arts for many, many years. That by itself helps prepare the body for houtian work. It was only after your houtian work where you managed to build the LDT (which is something you now teach to beginners through immediate reverse breathing, squeezing of the perineum and more), that you were initiated into Xiao Yao Pai and began to benefit from that way of cultivation in my understanding. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong though 

Edited September 9, 2019 by anshino23

[effilang]

On 09/09/2019 at 7:25 AM, anshino23 said:

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant by possession. From what I've learned from @Jeff the possession that takes place is a sort of bond that happens in the higher chakras. This is like a hub on one's own motherboard which allows the Hu Fa Shen to take control when mutually beneficial. It is similar to what is observed in what Jeff calls a "true Guru bond". I'm not talking about possession in a negative way. Perhaps Jeff can share a few more words on what he meant by it. And maybe the two of you disagree on what happens during initiation, a process he has observed before. 

 

Regardless, it is claims and personal experiences of you both. It ultimately comes down to whether one chooses to trust you. There's no way to confirm or deny whether a bond is created if one is not at a level to be able to ascertain what actually happens during initiation. It would be like an alien inserting probes into you on an extremely subtle nano layer of your body, and then you say, "nope, nothing of that sort is happening". I mean, you can't really know. What we can observe is whether the effect is beneficial or not. And according to you and the testimonials, it is beneficial and certainly not harmful so that's good. 

 

 

The way you explained it in the past was better and is how I meant it. Your Hu Fa Shen is cultivating, your masters are cultivating and you are cultivating. The bond the beings make with you and all the other Dao Yu is a mutually beneficial exchange. Everyone cultivates and benefits. That's the way it was explained. Not that the Hu Fa Shens were perfect, nor that the master was perfect, but that everyone is continually refining themselves.

 

 

Yes, I'm quite aware of all the testimonials, thank you. But there's unfortunately no difference between what is observed and what happens during Zifagong or Shaktipat transmission. I've attended retreats where this exact thing happens, spontaneous movement, visions, all kinds of stuff. Also having the feeling of being guided, at that time, feeling of being guided by the primordially intelligent Shakti energy.  Dakinis or higher immortal beings flying in and taking control of a practictioner's vocal cords (something you also describe in one of the testimonials in the long Xiao Yao Pai thread) and singing a beautiful tune through an unknown language. Problem is that most of those experiences were temporary and didn't lead to lasting change, similar to what freeform is talking about.  

 

What would be very nice to hear is to hear from people that have practiced at least a year or longer and what changes they have observed. You come from a Houtian background yourself so your results can't really be applied the same way I don't think. 

 

I've spoken with some practitioners that have practiced for more than 10-15 years beforehand, and have been practicing Xiao Yao Pai for at least 2 years, and they say they are not even sure that they have a Hu Fa Shen or that they are being guided. They say it is so subtle. That it was very noticeable just after initiation, but then gradually it disappeared. 

 

My point being that maybe someone needs to be quite refined and advanced beforehand, to really notice and observe what is going on, and perhaps even to significantly progress through the Path. But perhaps you say it is different in XYP. 

 

It is like @freeform mentions, the one's he saw that were actually successful in the Shen approach were those that came with a long background of Houtian. If I'm not mistaken you also had before you started houtian a background in martial arts for many, many years. That by itself helps prepare the body for houtian work. It was only after your houtian work where you managed to build the LDT (which is something you now teach to beginners through immediate reverse breathing, squeezing of the perineum and more), that you were initiated into Xiao Yao Pai and began to benefit from that way of cultivation in my understanding. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong though 

 

There are too many misunderstandings here for which I currently don't have the time to reply to, nor any particular inclination, and which of themselves will be corrected once a consistent personal body of experience has been accumulated through practice. 

 

Furthermore, none of this information aids in cultivation. It is merely superficial entertainment for the mind, so I'd rather skip the long-winded and ultimately pointless theoretical philosophy.

 

I only came here to correct the false statements pertaining to our tradition of cultivation. 

 

Best wishes.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by effilang

[freeform]

8 hours ago, effilang said:

 

I just wan to chime in here to correct some of these statements:

 

 

I think it’s right of you to clarify. But I for one didn’t read it as a form of ‘possession’...

 

In fact in most lineages at a certain stage of getting accepted into the ‘inner door’ of the school, one is initiated into the lineage - and a ‘seed’ is ceremonially ‘stamped’ into the upper Dantien.

 

With any old lineage there is always an immortal being at the head of it. By being aligned through initiation in this way, your cultivation as well as your daily life is to some extent subtly coloured by this attunement to this higher aspect of being.

 

It just sounds that your school starts with this initiation - rather than holding the initiation out for the fully committed ones.

 

Or am I missing something?

 

9 hours ago, effilang said:

Correct, except that Ren and Du meridians are connected anyway. If they were not, everybody would be dead.

Rather, we are activating them on a deeper level which is triggered by a particular grade of energy.

In other words, different grades of energy can enable different functions of meridians.

 

I’m curious - how do these channels function when they are activated at this deeper levels? What are some signs that this has happened?

 

After initiation, what are some of the main practices of the school?

[freeform]

29 minutes ago, effilang said:

Furthermore, none of this information aids in cultivation. It is merely superficial entertainment for the mind, so I'd rather skip the long-winded and ultimately pointless theoretical philosophy.

 

I only came here to correct the false statements.

 

Oops. Only just saw this.

 

I don’t think it’s superficial necessarily...

 

I think it can certainly assist ones who are interested in different schools and it would help them understand the functional differences before joining.

[MIchael80]

1 hour ago, anshino23 said:

 

I think you misunderstood what I meant by possession. From what I've learned from @Jeff the possession that takes place is a sort of bond that happens in the higher chakras. This is like a hub on one's own motherboard which allows the Hu Fa Shen to take control when mutually beneficial. It is similar to what is observed in what Jeff calls a "true Guru bond". I'm not talking about possession in a negative way. Perhaps Jeff can share a few more words on what he meant by it. And maybe the two of you disagree on what happens during initiation, a process he has observed before. 

 

Regardless, it is claims and personal experiences of you both. It ultimately comes down to whether one chooses to trust you. There's no way to confirm or deny whether a bond is created if one is not at a level to be able to ascertain what actually happens during initiation. It would be like an alien inserting probes into you on an extremely subtle nano layer of your body, and then you say, "nope, nothing of that sort is happening". I mean, you can't really know. What we can observe is whether the effect is beneficial or not. And according to you and the testimonials, it is beneficial and certainly not harmful so that's good. 

 

 

The way you explained it in the past was better and is how I meant it. Your Hu Fa Shen is cultivating, your masters are cultivating and you are cultivating. The bond the beings make with you and all the other Dao Yu is a mutually beneficial exchange. Everyone cultivates and benefits. That's the way it was explained. Not that the Hu Fa Shens were perfect, nor that the master was perfect, but that everyone is continually refining themselves.

 

 

Yes, I'm quite aware of all the testimonials, thank you. But there's unfortunately no difference between what is observed and what happens during Zifagong or Shaktipat transmission. I've attended retreats where this exact thing happens, spontaneous movement, visions, all kinds of stuff. Also having the feeling of being guided, at that time, feeling of being guided by the primordially intelligent Shakti energy.  Dakinis or higher immortal beings flying in and taking control of a practictioner's vocal cords (something you also describe in one of the testimonials in the long Xiao Yao Pai thread) and singing a beautiful tune through an unknown language. Problem is that most of those experiences were temporary and didn't lead to lasting change, similar to what freeform is talking about.  

 

What would be very nice to hear is to hear from people that have practiced at least a year or longer and what changes they have observed. You come from a Houtian background yourself so your results can't really be applied the same way I don't think. 

 

I've spoken with some practitioners that have practiced for more than 10-15 years beforehand, and have been practicing Xiao Yao Pai for at least 2 years, and they say they are not even sure that they have a Hu Fa Shen or that they are being guided. They say it is so subtle. That it was very noticeable just after initiation, but then gradually it disappeared. 

 

My point being that maybe someone needs to be quite refined and advanced beforehand, to really notice and observe what is going on, and perhaps even to significantly progress through the Path. But perhaps you say it is different in XYP. 

 

It is like @freeform mentions, the one's he saw that were actually successful in the Shen approach were those that came with a long background of Houtian. If I'm not mistaken you also had before you started houtian a background in martial arts for many, many years. That by itself helps prepare the body for houtian work. It was only after your houtian work where you managed to build the LDT (which is something you now teach to beginners through immediate reverse breathing, squeezing of the perineum and more), that you were initiated into Xiao Yao Pai and began to benefit from that way of cultivation in my understanding. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong though 

I was initiated into  XYP in 2016.......never lost conncection with the FFS......but they changed as i requested to be trained differently than the common XYP road.

I have heard some have seemed to have lost the connection to the ffs but no nothing in more detail. But to me it makes sense that xians do not train all people forever....so when they are not ripe enough they may turn away from them after a certain time.

 

I wanted to learn real alchemy and XYP is not that.....it works basically like Effie says.....but that is not real alchemy. (real alchemy is very rare!) And i am not saying that XYP is bad or anything like that...but not real alchemy. I am hestitant to talk about real alchemy here though i have from time to time because i do not want to be put into the same corner as the russians (who have real alchemy schools)....though i try not to be so boasty as them. (i have no connection to them).

But they were right in regards to neidan with full alchemical principle.....and since no book today shows this full principle it is hard to discuss this subject. Also no teacher i am aware of teaches this full alchemical method beside a hidden longmen lineage, the 2 schools which the russians have a branch of and maybe a teacher in Belgium.

 

There is in my understanding no shen alone approach.......one could say that systems like Transcendental Meditation is but they try to reach samadhi which is all encompassing......shen only would mean you just sit and do nothing do reach deeper states of mediation. One could say that vajrayana is shen mostly in the beginning with its lots of visualizations...but they also use body techniques....and later of course tummo (inner fire, which works with chi and jing...here they call the jing drops).

Maybe some Zen schools are mostly what could be called shen ...but they also want to reach samadhi like states (which is beyond shen)......but they do not look at the body .....so this could be what you mean.

Basic buddhist meditations could be described as shen (vipassana) only........but even there samadhi is goal.

 

What is described here as jing, qi, shen is post heaven approach in chinese systems (in indian system you start with chi, the body is often incoorperated but no work with the jing directly)...aka nei gong.

Body work alone is not jing.....it has a healthy effect on body and the jing....but it is not jing work. For this we need the nei gong work that Dammo describes so beautifully.

 

In alchemy the body is prepared but jing, qi, shen in alchemy partains to the yuan forms of these energies which are pre-heaven (before creation) so alchemy it is not about body, chi, mind, as one works with energies which are already beyond the mind but are ascociated with the body.

 

best

Edited September 9, 2019 by MIchael80

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

the common XYP road.

 

Could you elaborate?