Jing-Qi-Shen vs. Shen based cultivation systems

[anshino23]

Here's some stuff from the Xiao Yao Pai thread that maybe sheds a bit of light on this if Xuan does not have time to elaborate,  @freeform in relation to their practices. Main thread is here. 

 

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One of the differences in immortal guidance between Neidan in Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu and Houtian Xiulian is the point at which we which we connect to the Xian Shen for guidance.

 

In Houtian Neidan this is generally near the end, when the immortal child is ready to be released through the Bai Hui and the spirit can consciously function in Wuji in a completely aware and independent state.

 

In Xiao Yao Pai, this takes place on the day of initiation. That's why it's very common for early beginners to see "the falling snow and dancing flowers".

---

 

In XTDYS, we have three basic practices;

Shen Gong (Guided Movements such as in the video)

- Here HFS moves our body and we just follow.

 

Qi Gong (Breath and Subtle energy work)

- Here HFS directly controls the breath and moves the Qi in the body where necessary for our cultivation.

 

Jing Zuo

- Here HFS guides our awareness into Wuji.

 

I made this video a year ago. I don't move like this anymore, as a matter of fact, my movements in Shen Gong had already stopped and I had progressed to guided Qigong at this point, so I specifically asked HFS for something flashy for this video haha, just because I was going to share it with people.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFF6ksJ8-Bw

 

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After we trigger the disciples Yuan Shen during the initiation, the golden aura of our school wraps around our Hun Shen (Human Spirit). Every time we practice the Hun Shen absorbs the energy of the Divine and for the lack of better phraseology, "downloads" the general Xian blueprint directly from HFS so that our Hun Shen can begin to restructure itself and unify the 3 Hun and 7 Po into one energetic entity; Yang Shen.

So every day we practice after initiation, the signature energy of our schools activates to refine us from Yin Shen to Yang Shen, wrapping around us like a cocoon of golden light.

After 3 to 5 years of regular practice, the Xiao Shen already begins to form above the head. At first like an amorphous vapour ~1 foot over the Bai Hui point, then later as we absorb more divine energy and practise XTDYS, it starts to take on our physical features and become consciously enabled. All the while HFS protects us so we can practice in peace.

So it's almost like giving birth. That is why they call it the immortal birth from the top of the head.
 

At first it's like a baby, with no intellect, then little by little as our awareness transfers to it to enable its consciousness, it grows and becomes fully aware and fuses into one being that we ourselves are the embodiment of. So just like we are born into the physical world first, and we must learn to crawl, then walk and act and conduct ourselves. It's the same with the immortal birth after we are delivered from Taiji into Wuji - and HFS guides and protects us like a parent.
 

So it's a gradual process.

 

 

[freeform]

48 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

Here's some stuff from the Xiao Yao Pai thread that maybe sheds a bit of light on this

 

Thanks. 

 

Ok - well the video shows standard Zi Fa Gong...

 

The explanation of what’s happening is where the difference is.

 

My next question would be ‘how do you know that this is what happens?’

[anshino23]

8 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Thanks. 

 

Ok - well the video shows standard Zi Fa Gong...

 

The explanation of what’s happening is where the difference is.

 

My next question would be ‘how do you know that this is what happens?’

 

Xuan answers @Walker who asked this very question in the thread.

 

He replied: 
 

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In terms of spontaneous Qigong... it's veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery different from XYP xiu liangong.

Many many day 1 and day 2 Dao Yu can already speak to their HFS and have extensive dialogues.

 

During the longer part of my first months of training, I spent a lot of time lying on the bed simply asking HFS questions about the universe and asking the answers to things that science had yet not discovered. Things about the planets, physics, the dynamics of spiritual evolution and so on and so forth. 

 

HFS helps with daily things as well quite often. He might advise you what to eat and what not to eat.

Often my mother would reach for some type of food (she is diabetic) and HFS would pull her hand back and advise her otherwise. The decision is then hers based on the information received from HFS as to what she wants to do. We are not obliged to follow and we must bear our karma.

 

In Xian Tian Dao Yin Shu we are not moved by some unconscious power. We're directed by a conscious being, with it's own personality, memories, past lifetimes and so on and so forth. You can talk to it, discuss, argue, debate and explore any facet of life you wish. 

 

So there's no comparison in terms of Spontaneous Qigong : )
 

If HFS moves your hand right, you can resist it and move it left, at the beginning level, this is the easiest way to feel HFSs power and establish the differential between your consciousness and his/her's, if you can't hear or see them at this point.

 

I remember one time my mum was rushing for work to catch the bus, HFS stopped her and said, don't take the bus now, take a taxi there will be an accident. Right after she took the taxi to work, the bus crashed. There are hundreds upon hundreds of stories like this from our Dao Yu.

 

I've successfully also been able to connect to people across the planet with HFS and through Tai Shang's grace, move their body so they can experience the proof. I was surprised myself about this one, because it's a matter of spiritual authority.

 

I know that it seems difficult to believe from the outside, I truly do appreciate it. I've never asked for anyone to believe me, only to come and test it for themselves. Like I said before, I don't want people to follow me, I want them to lead themselves.

 

If you look at any of our testimonials, you will see people are at home practising on a daily basis with HFS guiding them.

People from all over the world, able to be moved and communicate. Honestly they are not paid actors. I wouldn't have the money to pay them all! haha  

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by anshino23

[freeform]

I’ve clearly missed this thread - apologies.

 

However that still doesn’t explain ‘how do you know’... 

 

An interesting aspect of Zi Fa Gong is that it’s very malleable according to beliefs... I’ve seen groups using it in a Hindu context - they saw Hindu Deities entering their body and moving them... I’ve seen Zi Fa Gong in Christian contexts as the Holy Spirit entering the body... even in TRE which works with a sort of semi ‘scientific’ perspective. And with each context and set of beliefs the Zifa Gong takes on a certain flavour and a range of internal experiences (Hindus would start chanting and doing dances, Christians would spontaneously speak bible verses or break out with ‘Aramaic sounding’ talking in tongues etc.)

 

But stuff like opening the microcosmic orbit and so on has very specific signs... ‘HFS told me it’s open’ can then be corroborated with the specific physiological evidence.

 

A new voice in your head is certainly unusual - just wondering if this voice really does help create real internal change.

[Sebastian]

Sorry guys, don't mean to hijack.... but I have a sort of joke I'm looking to place.

 

Qi is the money in your wallet.

Jing is what's in your saving's account.

Shen is your stock in the universal divine energy.

 

You know what they say - you need a balanced portfolio ? 

 

So get all three. A system that uses only one is unbalanced imo.

 

Ha ! It's not funny Sebby - GTFO !

 

< escapes > (just exited the thread) 

[effilang]

I just got notified by someone that incorrect information was being shared here again in regards to our practice methodology. 

 

I can't look for it now, because I'm at work, but I'll have a look at it later and make any necessary corrections.

 

If anyone has any specific questions regarding Tai Shang Men - Xiao Yao Pai; feel free to let me know and I'll compile everything and reply later.

 

Judging by what I was told.

It will be very long reply. 

 

In honour of the OP, I suggest we keep any questions in line with the theme of his/her thread, as much as possible.

 

Best wishes.

Edited September 19, 2019 by effilang

[effilang]

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After speaking with many different practitioners and thinking about this topic quite a lot, it seems to be quite the conundrum. 

 

 

I collectively direct this message to everyone.

You keep discussing stupid shit instead of practising : )

 

There are two major branches to the approach of spiritual cultivation, be it under the umbrella of Daoism or any other culture.

The first is through a direct connection to a Shen and is how it all began. Here the work is primarily Wu Wei.

The second is learning through books or from a living master. Here the work is primarily You Wei.

 

In Wu Wei systems like Xiantian Dao Yin Shu, we don't have to study theory before practice, because Hu Fa Shen directs every movement of energy in the body, be it the physical body, the subtle energy body or the human/divine consciousness. 

 

Think about all the things you need to take into consideration working on your own;

 

Does the energy need to move into this meridian or that?

How do I make sure it doesn't go into the wrong path?

When does it have to do it exactly?

How much should we push inside?

Should the pressure be light or strong?

Where do we pause the movement along the path?

Does the force have to synchronise with the breath?

How long do we keep it there?

Do we bring it all back or divert some of it somewhere else?

What time during the day/night/year should we do it?

Should we use the imagination for this one or should we wait for our spirit to act spontaneously?

How deep should we inhale?

How deep should we exhale?

Should we pause the breath on inhale or exhale?

For how long?

In which direction do we lift the sphincters and at which of the pauses do we do it?

Where is our attention at this time?

etc Ad infinitum.

 

Knowing all the technical details is something that can be mutually exclusive from executing all the technical details during the practice of DYS.

There are times when we have to voluntarily apply pressure in order to increase the force with which energy is moving in a meridian, but the direction is still administered by the Hu Fa Shen.

 

It is like if you have a car.

 

You wash it.

You change the oil.

You change the fuel.

You take it for regular check-ups.

Maybe change the colour sometimes or buy some cool accessories etc.

 

Inviting Hu Fa Shen is like someone taking the driver's seat in your car, while you relax in the passengers seat (most of the time).

You don't even have to help navigate with a map, because Hu Fa Shen knows the way to his home by heart, but the trip is long, so the condition of the car is important.

The tires have to be pumped, tank regularly topped up and you need to have tools to fix anything that needs maintenance or gets broken.

 

Thankfully, HFS is also a professional mechanic : )

 

Don't get me wrong though. DYS practice doesn't always feel like you're just a feather being taken by a gentle current.

We're dealing with a lot of pure energy here that steps down into the system and stars harmonising, and this can cause a great deal of physical reactions when energy starts flowing and stagnated pockets of energy are cleared. You may experience strong gyrating movements and vibrations, spontaneous crying, screaming, yelling, whaling, grunts, snarls, blowing of air in specific sounds, burning sensations, extreme and near unbearable gravity at specific acupuncture points (particularly when they are activated with primordial qi). Honestly the variety of ways in which a persons individual practice can unfold is an endless list that can be compared in its vastness only to the uncountable multitude of individual consciousnesses that inhabit the Dao. Nevertheless, all development by the Shen is direct along the Divine curriculum of our school, which serves to develop the consciousness of the Dao Yu in a manner that will facilitate its resonance with the dimension of the Dao within which the collective consciousness of Tai Shang Laojun and all the Shen in the role of Hu Fa reside.

 

Things just "happen" when you practice XTDYS - and yes, those "things" match up with the things you read in the modern books and the classics, but you don't HAVE to know them, in order for them to happen. In fact, the less you know the better, as your mind's expectations of what it has never experienced or a place it has never been to, ironically enough, tends to cause resistance.

 

Those that make the fastest progress in DYS are those that are most ignorant of the methodologies of internal alchemy.

 

This is the FUNDAMENTAL reason why our tradition as a whole is not particularly popular in literature and by extension in public, because along the course of its history, there was never any pressing reason to communicate or record anything for future disciples to reference. Either you were initiated and therefore could cultivate under the administration of a Shen or you weren't, in which case you needed oral or written instructions from another school. It's really that simple.

 

Li Shifu was just a teenager when an old man came to him and took him as his disciple.

He would go to the forest to meet him there.

After he inherited Dao Yin Shu and had his own family, he transmitted it to them.

The art was transmitted very selectively since the beginning of time.

Our Shifu was granted authority to share it openly.

Today, DYS has been inherited by over 140,000 Daoists, including government ministers, nobility and priests of the major Daoist sects in prominent temples and organisations around the world.

 

We really don't have anything to prove at this point. We're long past that and at a point where it speaks for itself.

In fact, if anything, we should be asking for people to prove to us why they think they deserve to inherit Dao Yin Shu.

 

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From what I've learned there are basically two different types of systems. Traditional systems and Shen systems. 

 

I always find this misunderstanding quite amusing when I come across it, since forms of early shamanistic practice and Daoist thought were already prevalent thousands of years before the time of Laozi; which is what people tend to consider traditional Daoism.
 

Chinese spiritual practice doesn't start with Laozi or even Huang Di. The consciousness of our celestial headmaster, Tai Shang Laojun, and of others, such as the aforementioned, Huang Di, have been presiding over the development of the earth and supporting the evolution of individual beings since the very early beginnings of this planet, when the most basic forms of energy were still in the early stages of coagulating to form the material organism that could facilitate the growth of consciousness through the process of incarnation ie; the crossing of the bridge between Wuji and Taiji.

 

It reminds me of responses I often receive from persons when I'm discussing something like the Huangdi Neijing, Neijingtu, Cantongqi or the Wuzhen Pian.

They say, look at this non-traditional new age stuff 

 

Anyway. I'm just thinking out loud so please don't take anything personally  - It is just that most people's history doesn't go back far enough to realise that often, their idea of "traditional" IS actually, in many cases, the new-age stuff they are referring to.

 

Nevertheless, I am only making this statement to raise to view the dichotomy of this perspective. In reality, Daoism is an evolving one and during the course of time the Shen have also made adjustments to accommodate and harmonise with the cultural and technological development of human civilisation. They don't just stick to one thing unintelligently.

 

Daoism isn't just what we can read in texts.

It's happening right now, everywhere, and if you continue to look back to the past you will miss what is taking place right in front of you.

 

All the masters whose texts you read and methods you practice to call yourself a Daoist, are alive, still teaching and among us always as disembodied consciousness who enter and exit Taiji to help us draw ourselves closer to them by the condition of our consciousness., in so doing, going deeper into the subtle dimensions of the Dao.

The Shen follow the heartbeat of the Dao and support us all in our evolution. In fact, they are the heartbeat of the Dao.

 

And I'll tell you something funny, many of the Shen do not look upon their texts and produced works with the same religiousity and drunken reverence that we often do.

Some even have said, hmm, I could probably have written that a little better and I'd probably explain that in a different way to the humans of today!

 

Search for the Dao in the present moment which is the most current culmination of all wisdom. It is not in the past.

 

Do you remember when Confucius went to meet Laozi all dressed up fancy with elaborate robes, wanting to have a discussion about etiquette and ceremonial customs; citing those from the past and Laozi cut him off abruptly and told him, all the masters you speak of are dead in their graves, you cannot learn wisdom from the ancients and a swan does not need to bathe daily to remain white.

 

There are some interesting lessons worth contemplating there.

 

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The first is the traditional Jing -> Qi -> Shen cultivation path.

 

According to the traditions I've looked into it is based around firstly changing the body to make it a fit vehicle for later spiritual work. For instance, one way of looking at this schematic (in my preliminary understanding) would be something like: 

 

1. Conditioning and preparing the physical body, herein both stretching the body, learning how to hang muscles and align the body properly, how to "sink the Qi" and eventually connecting/changing the entire fascia system. Usually takes many years of work just to get this step right to my understanding. This is a state of vibrant physical health already and there won't be coarse physical issues in my understanding. 
2.  Beginning the stage of jing to Qi, wherein jing is first stilled and consolidated. Usually, in my understanding, the 100 day virgin boy training or also known as the 100 day foundation. 
3. Awakening/building the LDT, which becomes an actual physical structure that moves and twists in your lower abdomen and is now an actual physical structure that also holds immense energetic properties. 
4. Microcosmic orbit
5. Then movement of yang qi and yin qi and the mixing of fire and water
6. Qi to Shen (leading to "white moon on the mountain peak")
7. Shen stage where the yin-shen is created and erupts from the crown and then needs to learn how to move and behave independently from the body. This is said to take a long time before it is fully matured and is done in retreat and away from society. 

 

On the other hand, we have systems that go the completely opposite way. 

 

They say forget about the body, forget about physical body transformation, none of that is really most important part. You should directly work on the Shen stage from the beginning, then everything will follow nicely and your body will remain healthy and even transform to stay healthy. They say that the body is completely impermanent so spending time creating physical structures inside it like a physical dantien is not necessary nor helpful for spiritual cultivation, you're really only interested in getting to the Shen stage so you can begin refining your spirit immediately since that is the only thing that lasts and that you can take with you upon death.

 

On top of this, these types of schools also claim that you're basically skipping decades of hard gruelling jing -> qi -> shen work where every aspect of your physical and emotional nature is changed. According to them, you simply get to the last stage immediately and then everything is refined much faster that way.  

 

So, my question is basically, are they just deluding themselves? Which of the systems is correct? Are they both correct, and if so, how or why?

 

Thanks 

 

 

 

There's no such thing as a Shen only system or a Jing Qi Shen only system. This is an outrageous proposition and I don't know why people say this.

The 3 Bao are interconnected and interdependent within the complex of the human body. Any event that causes some form of partial disconnection, or better yet put, disharmony between them, in any form, while the heart is still beating, are states of disease, unwell, near death or physical death.
 

In Xiao Yao Pai, which I take it you're incorrectly referring to as a Shen only system, the SOURCE of transformation is primordial qi from Wuji, which is received from beyond the differentiated state brought about by the separation of Yin and Yang from the divine one. This is where the Shen reside and when they interact with us during practice, they help to temporarily bridge this energy into our body so it can be absorbed by it. Then, the Shen feeds the Qi and the Qi feeds the Jing, but instead of doing this from a source of turbid energy (the body), it uses the purest energy from the subtle realm and steps it down so you have a clean flow.
 

The energy cannot be absorbed directly initially, because the human consciousness is still weak, the difference in vibration will simply shock the fuck out of it and even damage it or worse. So, Hu Fa Shen bridges it by entering Taiji to a vibration that is safely digestible.
 

By practising Tai Shang Shen Gong within Dao Yin Shu, we eventually create our own internal bridge, or in order words, with time the consciousness adapts certain qualitative parameters that allow it to process the energy internally without. Hu Fa Shen needing to bridge it constantly. So we gradually become more and more independent and this allows us to be able to pull in energy from Wuji to transform our consciousness more efficiently and more independently.
 

Because we start from the top and move down, again, due to the SOURCE of energy (this is our primary difference), our skills also develop first within the subtle dimension.
In other words, the skills we develop initially can be used on a vibration level that is strictly above Qi or Jing, so it cannot affect the subtle energy or physical body at the early stage, but it can directly manipulate the energy of someones consciousness. Some of these are skills inherited, some of these are developed.

 

In order for us to shift that skill into the physical dimension we need to practice Tai Shang Shen Gong, which moves down the system and begins to develop physical power and subtle power. This is essentially our system of Neigong (we don't have Waigong), because it moves from Shen to Qi to Jing and by the time it gets to Jing the internal energy is already at a very strong level of development.
 

With Houtian Xiulian Gong, you can either work on Neigong first, or Waigong - then lead the energy inwards to develop Neigong and from Neigong move to Neidan.

 

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I think you misunderstood what I meant by possession. From what I've learned from @Jeff the possession that takes place is a sort of bond that happens in the higher chakras. This is like a hub on one's own motherboard which allows the Hu Fa Shen to take control when mutually beneficial. It is similar to what is observed in what Jeff calls a "true Guru bond". I'm not talking about possession in a negative way. Perhaps Jeff can share a few more words on what he meant by it. And maybe the two of you disagree on what happens during initiation, a process he has observed before. 

 

Yes, he has observed it, because I invited him.
Maybe its me, but the way you wrote that makes it seem like he came to spy and therefore discovered something we were trying to hide.
No. He was openly and lovingly invited.

 

Every consciousness is individual and independent from one another. We influence each other, but are individual and our individuality remains always.
One consciousness cannot possess another. I do not condone the use of the word possession even if you are employing it in its positive connotation of mutually agreed control, because that still implies that you're handing over control for whatever period of time, which is not how DYS works.

 

Handing over complete control is a direct violation of free will and a violation of the highest law, which even God-Dao does not violate.
What happens is not control, but guidance, you're "guided" (that's why our art is called The Divine Guidance Art) to move or do something at which point you can either follow it or reject it, because you're always in control.

During practice you have to develop your sensitivity to the Shen's energy and feel it when he/she guides you.

You should be able to distinguish your Hu Fa Shen's guiding energy from your own will and no matter the instruction, you can always move in the opposite direction if you wish.

There are no installations, chains, attachments, chip implants or whatever other metaphorical expressions exist : )
It is simply one consciousness helping another consciousness, no bonds are necessary for this.

 

The only one that owns anyone and is superior to everyone is the primordial Dao; for we all exist within its body and enrich it.

 

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Regardless, it is claims and personal experiences of you both. It ultimately comes down to whether one chooses to trust you. There's no way to confirm or deny whether a bond is created if one is not at a level to be able to ascertain what actually happens during initiation. It would be like an alien inserting probes into you on an extremely subtle nano layer of your body, and then you say, "nope, nothing of that sort is happening". I mean, you can't really know. What we can observe is whether the effect is beneficial or not. And according to you and the testimonials, it is beneficial and certainly not harmful so that's good. 

 

No, there isn't a way to know before initiation. You will need to become initiated and cultivate to see it for yourself.

 

Third parties outside of Xiao Yao Pai, don't always see Hu Fa Shen directly. Very often what they experience is their shadow in Taiji because most people can't detect Hu Fa Shen directly in their raw formless state of light. They show themselves only when they wish to be seen and to who they wish to see them.

 

You can have a group of Shen in the room before initiation and nobody will see them until the moment they are initiated, while others won't see them at all (yet) : )

A Shen and a Xian are both a consciousness outside of a physical body.
A Human is a consciousness inside a physical body.

 

Both a Shen and a Human can help another Human, teach him, educate him, energise him, heal his energy etc - and in both instances, no bonding is necessary.

What is it about the lack of a physical body that suddenly makes you think that consciousness must bond with you?

It is just mere energetic interaction.

You go to your patients' home and do your Wai Qi Liao Fa and then you go home.
Hu Fa Shen comes to your home and does his work and goes home too. No strings attached.

 

Moreover, if anybody wants to leave the school, they just face Tai Shang, make a formal request and dissolve the apprenticeship, then they will be stricken off the heavenly register until next life, when they can apply again. Heaven doesn't like time wasters and unserious people, so if you don't appreciate the value after you receive it, then you'll have to wait for your next life, if you're lucky enough to find us.
 

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The way you explained it in the past was better and is how I meant it. Your Hu Fa Shen is cultivating, your masters are cultivating and you are cultivating. The bond the beings make with you and all the other Dao Yu is a mutually beneficial exchange. Everyone cultivates and benefits. That's the way it was explained. Not that the Hu Fa Shens were perfect, nor that the master was perfect, but that everyone is continually refining themselves.

 

I do not always share everything about everything, so if I explained something in the past, it doesn't mean that is all the information regarding the subject.

The mutually beneficial exchange I speak of is not about collecting coins in a purse.

The Shen that have merged with the Dao embody its qualities, power, will and divine directive the deeper they go into the core.

The benefit for such a Shen is in its ability to conduct the evolution of souls within Taiji (The physical universe), using the power of the Dao to do so (or however much of this power it has managed to inherit as a result of the condition of its own consciousness as determined by its resonance with the core values of the Dao).

 

All the Shen desire to do is give themselves.
That is what Love is. Giving yourself endlessly.
The Dao gives itself endlessly to all of its creations in supporting their life and evolution.
The Shen who have drawn themselves closer to the Dao and have merged with it to become one consciousness; and who therefore act both as its body and as their individual identities, also give themselves endlessly. They are incessantly among us here in one form or another, either influencing life directly from Wuji or entering Taiji to more directly direct us in our development.

 

The benefit to you is your own growth in the direction of the Shen and the Dao through the refinement of your negative personality traits, your turbulent emotions and the density of your consciousness to make it light and soft, but also strong so it does not break or diffuse. This is the Yuan Shen that is both Yin and Yang and must be crystallised through proper cultivation. The benefit is love, peace, calm,  happiness, compassion, bliss and freedom from turmoil and incarnation - the same benefits that the subtlest Shen enjoy.

I do not understand the point you're trying to make here at all.

 

Even the Dao is expanding. With every consciousness that merges into the primordial it too is enriched.
With every unique experience we have in Taiji within the physical body; the Dao is too is enriched.

Every Shen that has merged into the subtlest dimension of the Dao. Into is core, becomes the Dao.
It is like a drop jumping in the sea, it becomes the sea and the sea becomes it.

 

In that sense they have attained the highest perfection of oneness, but even within this perfection, there is life and continued involvement with the evolution of the collective consciousness.

 

It is empty but not void (Kong).
 

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Yes, I'm quite aware of all the testimonials, thank you. But there's unfortunately no difference between what is observed and what happens during Zifagong or Shaktipat transmission. I've attended retreats where this exact thing happens, spontaneous movement, visions, all kinds of stuff. Also having the feeling of being guided, at that time, feeling of being guided by the primordially intelligent Shakti energy.  Dakinis or higher immortal beings flying in and taking control of a practictioner's vocal cords (something you also describe in one of the testimonials in the long Xiao Yao Pai thread) and singing a beautiful tune through an unknown language. Problem is that most of those experiences were temporary and didn't lead to lasting change, similar to what freeform is talking about.  

 

Ok, and what are you expecting exactly?
You have to sit down and practice. That's it.

 

Most of those experiences in the beginning serve to convince and assure the disciple that what he is experiencing is genuine.
After that, things calm down as the work moves into the cultivation of consciousness.

 

Sitting in OBLIVION. 
Sitting and FORGETTING.
SILENT sitting.

 

CONSCIOUSNESS. Only the most subtle thing in all of existence, but you want what?
Drum and Base playing every time you sit down to meditate?

Or you want to be woken up by unicorns every time your alarm rings?

 

Some people cant even feel their own physical bodies.
Others can't feel their Qi or believe it exists.
But you're complaining that consciousness isn't perceptible? : )

 

I will tell you EXACTLY why, the people who didn't experience lasting results failed, because as with everything else, they simply failed to persist, thinking that since all the bells and whistles have stopped singing now, things must be finished - no, when the bells and whistles stop, is when you're moving into the cultivation of consciousness. It's a boring exercise meditation. Sitting still and being quiet inside and out.

 

Do amazing mind blowing things happen. Oh hell yes, but if you keep expecting things with your mind, you will always fail.
Moreover, I think most people are too spoilt nowadays.

 

You can be initiated into a system where a Shen comes to teach you personally, to which you can speak to and receive messages and direction, see it, hear it, touch it.
But people still want more 

 

I can't help those ones which will not help themselves : )

 

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What would be very nice to hear is to hear from people that have practiced at least a year or longer and what changes they have observed.

 

Speaking!

Is my testimony too inconvenient or must it come from someone who was a complete virgin in internal cultivation to please you? : )

 

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You come from a Houtian background yourself so your results can't really be applied the same way I don't think. 

 

What?! - Why the hell not?
Are you implying I can't distinguish between when I started practising one system and stopped another and to which I can attribute specific achievements?

Of course I can. How can anybody not! It is not a matter that demands much to be intellectualised!
 

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I've spoken with some practitioners that have practiced for more than 10-15 years beforehand, and have been practicing Xiao Yao Pai for at least 2 years, and they say they are not even sure that they have a Hu Fa Shen or that they are being guided. They say it is so subtle. That it was very noticeable just after initiation, but then gradually it disappeared. 

 

What a surprise. Consciousness, the most subtle energy in the Dao, is subtle...
Common guys, is this even a serious conversation : )))

 

You expect to cultivate your consciousness and everything to keep on feeling physical?
Then you're just cultivating your Taiji energy, which will disperse with the body after death and not your consciousness.

 

Every Hu Fa Shen can read your mind and will treat you according to your stubbornness, arrogance, ignorance, wisdom, ethics, expectations and so forth.
They have an endless ways to test you.

 

Keep looking for palpable experiences and your Hu Fa Shen will make certain that even while you're being refined intensely, you don't get any.
Maybe you'll quit, maybe you'll surmount your ego and on the other side of the hill is a paradise of experiences.

Every Hu Fa Shen will target your weakness for it is that which needs to be refined.

Dao Yin Shu isn't only about energetic cultivation.

 

It's about ethical cultivation, wisdom cultivation, love cultivation, compassion cultivation, power and skill cultivation and it is about emotional and psychological cultivation.
You will be hit on every single one of those levels and you are the only thing that determines if you fail or succeed : )

 

Anybody who thinks that all parts of this practice are easy, just don't bother coming at all.
Better stay at home. Seriously : )

 

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My point being that maybe someone needs to be quite refined and advanced beforehand, to really notice and observe what is going on, and perhaps even to significantly progress through the Path. But perhaps you say it is different in XYP. 

 

NO! For crying out loud. This is absolute horse kaka.

 

We have Dao Yu who didn't even know what meditation was before they got initiated and they are making fantastic progress!

 

NO, stop trying to OBSERVE and UNDERSTAND whats going on.
This is the crux of the problem.

 

You're trying to use information that your mind has accumulated within the span of a lifetime to fathom the unfathomable infinity of the Dao.
It is an inconceivably stupefying attempt of the mind of a frog trying to comprehend the mind of the whole ocean, from within a WELL.

It is always doomed to failure.

 

Yes, it is definitely different, because we are under the guidance of Shen, so they direct us.
Our understanding comes through the act of doing, but we needn't know beforehand what to do or how to do it. It simply burdens the mind with anxiety. 
 

On 09/09/2019 at 7:25 AM, anshino23 said:

 

It is like @freeform mentions, the one's he saw that were actually successful in the Shen approach were those that came with a long background of Houtian. If I'm not mistaken you also had before you started houtian a background in martial arts for many, many years. That by itself helps prepare the body for houtian work. It was only after your houtian work where you managed to build the LDT (which is something you now teach to beginners through immediate reverse breathing, squeezing of the perineum and more), that you were initiated into Xiao Yao Pai and began to benefit from that way of cultivation in my understanding. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong though 

 

No, no, Ashino.

 

Many of those who have very successful practice came with no knowledge of alchemy, frail bodies, often sick or weak in some way.

It is not the quality of the body that is the most important thing when dealing with Shen, but the quality of the heart-mind which always takes precedence.

 

ALWAYS.

 

On 09/09/2019 at 8:43 AM, freeform said:

 

I think it’s right of you to clarify. But I for one didn’t read it as a form of ‘possession’...

 

In fact in most lineages at a certain stage of getting accepted into the ‘inner door’ of the school, one is initiated into the lineage - and a ‘seed’ is ceremonially ‘stamped’ into the upper Dantien.

 

With any old lineage there is always an immortal being at the head of it. By being aligned through initiation in this way, your cultivation as well as your daily life is to some extent subtly coloured by this attunement to this higher aspect of being.

 

It just sounds that your school starts with this initiation - rather than holding the initiation out for the fully committed ones.

 

Or am I missing something?

 

 

I’m curious - how do these channels function when they are activated at this deeper levels? What are some signs that this has happened?

 

 

They function in a way which facilitates the continued reunification of the spirit within the primordial qi, linking together the water element in the kidneys and the fire element in the heart so the true yang and true yin can invert their places to bring bout the primordial state of being signified by Qian and Kun in their right positions. Then the water of the primordial qi stops flowing down and out and the fire spirit stops flaring up.

 

Once these are inverted and fire is under water, the steam is constantly produced by their union which settles in the yellow court around the Zhong Dantien, from here consciousness starts to expand beyond the chest and physical body and grow in size without limit. You can always determine someones level of cultivation by the size of their consciousness, which can grow to the size of rooms, buildings, neighbourhoods, cities, countries, the planet and up to the size of the Dao which it attains after it dissolves into it completely at the sage of Kong (emptiness; our tradition's highest goal).

 

Once the primordial qi is flowing through these meridians it enables this entire process of refinement, helping the consciousness crystalise into one solid being.

Theses functions are not activated by Houtian Qi flowing through the body meridians which are mostly a product of food, drink and environmental Qi.

 

From the moment we are initiated we are directly absorbing primordial qi into the body which feeds the Xia Dantien and speeds up the whole process of work, which would otherwise have to be performed solely with ones own energy.

 

It's kind of like we plug-in and download the blueprint and the blueprint itself starts to recallibrate us form the inside, while Hu Fa Shen, the engineers, implements and administers the integration of the divine blueprint into the subtle energy and consciousness in a way that allows a steady gradual reversal of the post-natal state (ni).

 

When we move the primordial qi from the Xian Dantien, unlike in Houtian, where we cycle it, we instead  move it up the Ren and up the Du simultaneously, this is around the time the MDT and LDT start to relink together which you will feel sometimes like a stream or a line connecting between them with something like an amorphous ball passing up and down between them.

 

In all our Xiantian Qigong (which is the equivalent of the Houtian Neidan) we only focus on the Xiao Zhou Tian (Micro-CO) - we don't focus on the other Qi Jing Mai (Liu/Six).

Our whole work takes place in the torso between the LDT, MDT, UDT and outside of the physical body.

 

Signs, I've already included above, but the movement of the primordial qi in the LDT standa out for me, which is like a sudden spontaneous resuscitation of live energy. It is like the manifestation of Hun-tun within the body. Something is suddenly born. It feels like you are pregnant with a child that is moving, yet its a kind of weaving, waving, nebulous and serpentine energy, that is wanting to move and do and transform.

 

We also clear the 3 passes going up Du as well.

So we share a lot of similarities with Houtian Xiulian and also have divergences in different areas.

 

Even though there is crossover, it goes something like this:

 

- Xiantian Tai Shang Shen Gong: helps us bridge primordial qi from wuji down into taiji to be used by the body.

- Xiantian Qigong: Our Neidan and our Neigong practice - both of which involve energy work, so we call it Qigong; energy work.

- Xiantian Jing Zuo: here we primarily refine out consciousness to become more subtle by absorbing primordial qi, while increasing its crystalisation so it becomes Yang.

 

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After initiation, what are some of the main practices of the school?

 

Various methods of working with energy, absorbing energy from the sun and moon, spiritual combat and finger weaving, working on converting the spiritual energy into physical to ground it into the body for neigong power, projecting the spirit outside of the body, learning to move the consciousness more flexibly, learning to dissolve into the consciousness of other things, material or immaterial, moving energy consciously in the body.

 

On 09/09/2019 at 8:46 AM, freeform said:

 

Oops. Only just saw this.

 

I don’t think it’s superficial necessarily...

 

I think it can certainly assist ones who are interested in different schools and it would help them understand the functional differences before joining.

 

Alrighty then, there you are : )

 

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I was initiated into  XYP in 2016.......never lost conncection with the FFS......but they changed as i requested to be trained differently than the common XYP road.

 

No they didn't.

It is not your choice.

There is a directive beyond your preferences.

They just accommodated your arrogance with a lolly-pop so you would shut your ego up.

Now you are just practising the same thing, thinking it is something else and It's kind of funny, but that is what you deserve : )

 

Our school has its own system, its own methodology, its own curriculum, its own heirarchy of Shen that act as its executors and its own organisational rules in heaven as on earth.

It is for all intents and purposes like a traditional school in any one of our societies.

 

One student cannot come and change the system; this is hubris in its worst form, for a human to think he can send away a God and ask for another like some child who is unsatisfied with his toys, or to imply that he is so special that he cannot be taught in a "common" way and to imply that the school has no alchemy owing to your own limited understanding.

 

A Shen can reject a student, a student can't reject a Shen.

 

I feel dirtied by the self-conceited egocentrism of this sentiment just by reading and replying to it.

 

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I have heard some have seemed to have lost the connection to the ffs but no nothing in more detail. But to me it makes sense that xians do not train all people forever....so when they are not ripe enough they may turn away from them after a certain time.

 

Nobody looses the connection to their mandated Hu Fa Shen, providing they wish to cultivate.

The Shen under Xiao Yao Pai are not volunteers, they are on formal duty and it is their duty to use a way particular to their apprentice's consciousness and ego to advance them.

The assessment of one's "ripeness" is carried out during initiation, when the candidate Hu Fa Shen appear in the room to pick their students, and it is done on a soul level.

 

If one is rejected due to having a malevolent heart.

They are rejected on the spot, no dilly-dallying.

 

The apprenticeship is dissolved only when you dissolve it formally and after death, not before.

 

On 09/09/2019 at 8:56 AM, MIchael80 said:

I wanted to learn real alchemy and XYP is not that.....it works basically like Effie says.....but that is not real alchemy. (real alchemy is very rare!)

 

So rare in fact that when it is under your nose you do not see it.

 

Physical immortality doesn't exist.

There can only be an extension of physical life through healthy living and good internal work, but all things that are born must die.

 

There are no living physical immortals. Every Daoist and Buddhist school on the planet today that claims they have a lineage of physical immortals, have all buried their former masters in graves, or their founders would still be alive. When you ask them if their masters were buried or not, they all suddenly get very sensitive around this topic.

 

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And i am not saying that XYP is bad or anything like that...but not real alchemy.

 

Please refer to my above replies to the former posters regarding some of the phases of Neidan in Xiao Yao Pai, which you're clearly ignorant of.

You first need to enrich your understanding of the word Dan in Daoism as well as Primordial Qi.

 

Most of your misunderstandings are due to very basic misconceptions in both order of and meaning of things in Neidan.

 

FYI: the process Houtian Xiulian in Neidan is what takes place in many parts of our Xiantian Qigong, after it advances to a phase you obviously haven't reached yet, which is fine of its own, but It is not very respectable to jump to conclusions based on that lack of experience and then go on public forums saying, it doesn't exist because I didn't reach it yet.

 

We cultivate the highest Dan of the Dao and the primordial qi into which our consciousness settles and disperses during Xiantian Qigong and Xiantian Jingzuo practice and we also have Neigong.

 

And before you start saying again that you had a very long 15 minute conversation with one of our Masters, let me just remind you that I've been practising Dao Yin Shu and have been receiving education in this system of work for over 6 years now. 

 

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I am hestitant to talk about real alchemy here though

 

Damn, we dodged a bullet there.

 

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There is in my understanding no shen alone approach.......

 

Such a thing as "shen alone" does not exist and any "real" alchemist or TCM Practitioner for that matter, would spit their coffee out reading that. 

 

Best wishes.

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by effilang

[anshino23]

On 23/09/2019 at 9:00 PM, effilang said:

In Xiao Yao Pai, which I take it you're incorrectly referring to as a Shen only system, the SOURCE of transformation is primordial qi from Wuji, which is received from beyond the differentiated state brought about by the separation of Yin and Yang from the divine one. This is where the Shen reside and when they interact with us during practice, they help to temporarily bridge this energy into our body so it can be absorbed by it. Then, the Shen feeds the Qi and the Qi feeds the Jing, but instead of doing this from a source of turbid energy (the body), it uses the purest energy from the subtle realm and steps it down so you have a clean flow.

 

No not just that. Freeform mentions another system (Kunlun) and another system besides Xiao Yao Pai I had in mind was actually Stillness Movement which uses a lot of similar vocabulary to describe their process of attainment such as "aligning with higher-level energetics", "connecting with the power of a high-energetic lineage" and "funnelling the energy into the body using non–linear energetic processes" and more stuff like that. So you're not the only system that claims for this way of cultivation. 

 

On 23/09/2019 at 9:00 PM, effilang said:

Maybe its me, but the way you wrote that makes it seem like he came to spy and therefore discovered something we were trying to hide.

 

Yes, I never intended to mean it that way. I'm quite calm with this whole thing, I don't want to frustrate or cause any trouble. I am simply trying to learn and help other people that may be wondering about the same things I am. That way one can make an informed decision about which way to direct one's efforts. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  

 

On 23/09/2019 at 9:00 PM, effilang said:

What?! - Why the hell not?
Are you implying I can't distinguish between when I started practising one system and stopped another and to which I can attribute specific achievements?

Of course I can. How can anybody not! It is not a matter that demands much to be intellectualised!

 

That's like saying ... "Someone with no physics background can work and understand quantum physics immediately, too!"

 

I think you're possibly misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. 

 

1. Someone with zero background in internal training has no foundation build. They do not have a functional LDT, they haven't gone through coarse cleaning of the channels nor made any significant changes to the functioning of their physical and energetic body.

 

When someone like this trains in the system of XYP, I am interested to hear if they achieve the same milestones as someone like yourself who has done (some part) of neigong training of for instance building the LDT which you describe as something physical in your prior posts here on the site some years back. I do not know if you trained with a teacher at all or were simply doing exercises on your own and had your attainments confirmed or whether you were/are simply self-trained. 

 

2. When one has a physical and energetic foundation, ascertaining the effects of higher levels of energy such as Shen should be easier or at least one would have an easier time working through it as one was already moving that direction anyhow. 

 

So yes, I don't know why you find it an offensive proposition thinking that someone with a foundation already built reacts differently to paths that work from "above" than someone who is a complete beginner.

 

Did you read freeform's posts about the practitioners he has known practicing Kunlun which talks about drawing energy down from above rather than building from the ground up? You seem to have ignored this part for some reason. 

 

On 23/09/2019 at 9:00 PM, effilang said:

You expect to cultivate your consciousness and everything to keep on feeling physical?

I'm not an expert in this, but from what I can hear from houtian practitioners, the signs even up to the highest stages still have physiological changes accompanying them even though they are working with subtler levels of energy. @freeformcan perhaps elaborate a bit more on that. 

 

On 23/09/2019 at 9:00 PM, effilang said:

NO! For crying out loud. This is absolute horse kaka.

We have Dao Yu who didn't even know what meditation was before they got initiated and they are making fantastic progress!

 

I don't know why you find the proposition preposterous. You agreed that meditation becomes subtler and subtler after the initial "Zifagong-like" process for lack of better description but now you somehow disagree that having already gone through that part of the process -- without a Hu Fa Shens guidance -- accelerates one's progress within that system.

 

One of the main assertions between the two systems (whatever you prefer to call them that doesn't offend your sensibilities) is that the houtian traditions lead to actual physiological changes that can be palpated, felt, seen, observed. 

 

Here's parts of that from freeform's post that you seem to have ignored. Perhaps because you disagree that those are signs of attainment?

 

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When you start working on aspects of consciousness with advanced teachers (that expect results from you - or you're out), you begin to realise just how much internal strength, stamina, effort and energy is required to achieve something like Jhanna. I know a lot of people think they've achieved Jhanna... but let's just say that maybe they've been misled on what Jhanna really is... For example as you enter and stabilise the 1st Jhanna, you can discern the full cause and effect chain on any body or mind you choose to focus on... that sounds abstract... as an example the whole of Chinese Medicine and it's understandings of cause and effect came from insight at the level of 1st Jhanna... If you enter 1st Jhanna at the moments before death your body will not rot. After death in 1st Jhanna, you're able to choose when and as whom you are reborn...

 

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To even get a chance at entering 1st Jhanna you first must be able to enter and stay in samadhi for several days straight... That in itself is a superhuman ability... Imagine the most intense mental focus - like attempting to solve the hardest puzzle you've ever solved - and keeping that level of focus completely steady and unwavering for 72hrs - and not straining, pushing or using any effort to do so.

 

Do you reach the same stage in Xiao Yao Pai practice? 

 

On 23/09/2019 at 9:00 PM, effilang said:

Speaking!

Is my testimony too inconvenient or must it come from someone who was a complete virgin in internal cultivation to please you? : )

 

Already explained why. No problem  

 

On 23/09/2019 at 9:00 PM, effilang said:

Physical immortality doesn't exist.

There can only be an extension of physical life through healthy living and good internal work, but all things that are born must die.

 

There are no living physical immortals. Every Daoist and Buddhist school on the planet today that claims they have a lineage of physical immortals, have all buried their former masters in graves, or their founders would still be alive. When you ask them if their masters were buried or not, they all suddenly get very sensitive around this topic.

 

Why is it that you are so sure? After all that you have experienced, all that you have witnessed of magical things and experiences (as you recount is common in your lineage) why is it so hard for you to imagine that someone could dissolve their physical body into light, appear and disappear at will or even become a physical immortal if they saw a reason to. 

 

The Buddha wrote about them in the Shurangama Sutra. And according to Buddhist belief, there are still several of Buddha's disciples currently dwelling in samadhi deep in the mountains awaiting Maitreya at the end of the Dharma Ending Age. 

 

The point isn't physical immortality, it never was. The point is -- as I see it -- that the greatest masters and sages reached such immense heights of attainment that they also changed the structure of the physical body to the point where they had complete control over its elements. 

 

To lower the measuring stick just because it does not fit with one's current view is something I don't understand. Someone who speaks about the Dao and its unfathomable depth should at the very least be open to the possibility of it being a reality.  

Edited September 25, 2019 by anshino23

[Walker]

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

 

 

I collectively direct this message to everyone.

You keep discussing stupid shit instead of practising : )

 

I get that you probably said that tongue-in-cheek and you're not trying to start a fight by saying that... and I also appreciate that you deigned to "discuss stupid shit instead of practicing" your own good self...

 

But don't you think it's a little ripe for older practitioners who spent years (decades?) of their lives reading, discussing, and contemplating their spiritual options before finding their paths to make comments that make younger, newer seekers feel like they're making a mistake by seeking to get something of a lay of the land? 

 

Also, discussion is arguably part of "the practice." 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

There are two major branches to the approach of spiritual cultivation, be it under the umbrella of Daoism or any other culture.

The first is through a direct connection to a Shen and is how it all began. Here the work is primarily Wu Wei.

The second is learning through books or from a living master. Here the work is primarily You Wei.

 

I don't think that the dichotomy you propose here is accurate at all.

 

The first "branch" you identify above is not the only type of wuwei teaching I've encountered in Daoism, because I have met multiple teachers who teach wuwei that certainly does not involve "direct connection to a Shen." 

 

The second "branch" also does not really make sense, because wuwei practice can be and very often is taught by living masters. 

 

There is much more that could be said about this, but suffice to say that what I have encountered in the Daoist world does not match up with your thesis. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

In Wu Wei systems like Xiantian Dao Yin Shu, we don't have to study theory before practice, because Hu Fa Shen directs every movement of energy in the body, be it the physical body, the subtle energy body or the human/divine consciousness. 

 

Think about all the things you need to take into consideration working on your own;

 

Does the energy need to move into this meridian or that?

How do I make sure it doesn't go into the wrong path?

When does it have to do it exactly?

How much should we push inside?

Should the pressure be light or strong?

Where do we pause the movement along the path?

Does the force have to synchronise with the breath?

How long do we keep it there?

Do we bring it all back or divert some of it somewhere else?

What time during the day/night/year should we do it?

Should we use the imagination for this one or should we wait for our spirit to act spontaneously?

How deep should we inhale?

How deep should we exhale?

Should we pause the breath on inhale or exhale?

For how long?

In which direction do we lift the sphincters and at which of the pauses do we do it?

Where is our attention at this time?

etc Ad infinitum.

 

Have you read Li Daochun's Book of Balance and Harmony (《中和集》)? This book--which was important in its time and remains a useful read today--revolves around a way of practice that is not youwei in the sense of the long list of considerations you wrote above, nor based upon having a hufa work upon/with the student as you suggest. This important thread of Quanzhen teachings remains very much alive today and I have been exposed to aspects of this teaching by more than one living teacher in three countries. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Knowing all the technical details is something that can be mutually exclusive from executing all the technical details during the practice of DYS.

There are times when we have to voluntarily apply pressure in order to increase the force with which energy is moving in a meridian, but the direction is still administered by the Hu Fa Shen.

 

It is like if you have a car.

 

You wash it.

You change the oil.

You change the fuel.

You take it for regular check-ups.

Maybe change the colour sometimes or buy some cool accessories etc.

 

Inviting Hu Fa Shen is like someone taking the driver's seat in your car, while you relax in the passengers seat (most of the time).

You don't even have to help navigate with a map, because Hu Fa Shen knows the way to his home by heart, but the trip is long, so the condition of the car is important.

The tires have to be pumped, tank regularly topped up and you need to have tools to fix anything that needs maintenance or gets broken.

 

Thankfully, HFS is also a professional mechanic : )

 

Don't get me wrong though. DYS practice doesn't always feel like you're just a feather being taken by a gentle current.

We're dealing with a lot of pure energy here that steps down into the system and stars harmonising, and this can cause a great deal of physical reactions when energy starts flowing and stagnated pockets of energy are cleared. You may experience strong gyrating movements and vibrations, spontaneous crying, screaming, yelling, whaling, grunts, snarls, blowing of air in specific sounds, burning sensations, extreme and near unbearable gravity at specific acupuncture points (particularly when they are activated with primordial qi). Honestly the variety of ways in which a persons individual practice can unfold is an endless list that can be compared in its vastness only to the uncountable multitude of individual consciousnesses that inhabit the Dao. Nevertheless, all development by the Shen is direct along the Divine curriculum of our school, which serves to develop the consciousness of the Dao Yu in a manner that will facilitate its resonance with the dimension of the Dao within which the collective consciousness of Tai Shang Laojun and all the Shen in the role of Hu Fa reside.

 

Well, I see no reason to doubt that this is the case... Nor believe it haha. But, if that's truly what's going on, sounds great. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Things just "happen" when you practice XTDYS - and yes, those "things" match up with the things you read in the modern books and the classics, but you don't HAVE to know them, in order for them to happen.

 

I see no reason to doubt that either, but, people who practice "normal" zifagong also report similar things.

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Today, DYS has been inherited by over 140,000 Daoists, including government ministers, nobility and priests of the major Daoist sects in prominent temples and organisations around the world. We really don't have anything to prove at this point. We're long past that and at a point where it speaks for itself.

 

Er, good for you guys, but does this even matter... like at all? Every crackpot religion worth a dime claims government ministers and nobility in its ranks. And does anybody even like/respect "nobility," what with their castles and yachts and hemophilia? And anyway, I've met plenty of Daoist priests who barely know their ass from their elbow. So, if you've got nothing to prove, what's with the "rich and famous and powerful and priestly guys hang out with us?" Not saying, just saying, namsayin?

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

In fact, if anything, we should be asking for people to prove to us why they think they deserve to inherit Dao Yin Shu.

 

Doesn't that kinda disagree with:

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

All the Shen desire to do is give themselves.
That is what Love is. Giving yourself endlessly.
The Dao gives itself endlessly to all of its creations in supporting their life and evolution.
The Shen who have drawn themselves closer to the Dao and have merged with it to become one consciousness; and who therefore act both as its body and as their individual identities, also give themselves endlessly. They are incessantly among us here in one form or another, either influencing life directly from Wuji or entering Taiji to more directly direct us in our development.

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

And I'll tell you something funny, many of the Shen do not look upon their texts and produced works with the same religiousity and drunken reverence that we often do.

Some even have said, hmm, I could probably have written that a little better and I'd probably explain that in a different way to the humans of today!

 

Well, we'll just have to take your word for that one... Which ascended Daoists who wrote books have said that to you? 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Search for the Dao in the present moment which is the most current culmination of all wisdom. It is not in the past.

 

Do you remember when Confucius went to meet Laozi all dressed up fancy with elaborate robes, wanting to have a discussion about etiquette and ceremonial customs; citing those from the past and Laozi cut him off abruptly and told him, all the masters you speak of are dead in their graves, you cannot learn wisdom from the ancients and a swan does not need to bathe daily to remain white.

 

Except swans do bathe daily... like... literally. And Laozi wrote a book for posterity that has helped countless people develop their wisdom, like, literarily. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Ok, and what are you expecting exactly?
You have to sit down and practice. That's it.

 

Most of those experiences in the beginning serve to convince and assure the disciple that what he is experiencing is genuine.
After that, things calm down as the work moves into the cultivation of consciousness.

 

Sitting in OBLIVION. 
Sitting and FORGETTING.
SILENT sitting.

 

CONSCIOUSNESS. Only the most subtle thing in all of existence, but you want what?
Drum and Base playing every time you sit down to meditate?

Or you want to be woken up by unicorns every time your alarm rings?

 

Some people cant even feel their own physical bodies.
Others can't feel their Qi or believe it exists.
But you're complaining that consciousness isn't perceptible? : )

 

I don't know if you appreciate that you have kind of created the questions that you're getting here by posting lots of "spiritual fireworks" testimonials over the years. You talk about people suddenly hearing voices and even seeing spiritual beings the very moment your initiation ritual is conducted, and you've offered lots of stories about various highly intense reactions to your school's practice. Given that you've shared so much information of this sort, it does seem a bit discordant to now be saying that nobody should look for/expect/want any of that in instead expect to have an XYP practice that is so subtle that they cannot, in fact, feel anything at all. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

I will tell you EXACTLY why, the people who didn't experience lasting results failed, because as with everything else, they simply failed to persist, thinking that since all the bells and whistles have stopped singing now, things must be finished - no, when the bells and whistles stop, is when you're moving into the cultivation of consciousness. It's a boring exercise meditation. Sitting still and being quiet inside and out.

 

Er, again, you've shared a lot of stories that do anything but say to the reader "XYP is a boring practice." Also, you might be right about why people didn't experience lasting results, but blaming the practitioner like this... 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Do amazing mind blowing things happen. Oh hell yes, but if you keep expecting things with your mind, you will always fail.
Moreover, I think most people are too spoilt nowadays.

 

Well, we can agree on that one... but maybe that just means we're getting old 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

You can be initiated into a system where a Shen comes to teach you personally, to which you can speak to and receive messages and direction, see it, hear it, touch it.
But people still want more 

 

Anshino was talking about people who don't even feel that. Which again, is a very gross manifestation, not subtle at all. 

 

Also, when Anshino raised the experience of the long-term practitioner of Zhinenggong who was initiated into XYP, I think he had a fair point. Somebody who has done Zhinenggong for even half a year is likely to have developed quite a bit of qi and sensitivity (I used some of this school's techniques for a couple of months); ten years of practice would almost certainly create substantial changes and lead to lots of sensitivity. I honestly do think it's a bit weird that this person would feel essentially nothing, and I find an explanation that amounts to "he didn't work hard enough" or "he had too many expectations" unsatisfying. Of course, who knows, maybe you're 100% right, but I think the questions are fair. As well as important. Why? Because there are a lot of deluded people walking around who are sure they're getting direct transmissions from spirits and deities who are also happy to "initiate" disciples. It is a good thing for people to have open, honest conversations about this phenomena--this way they're more likely to walk into a real school than a charlatan's or deluded fool's. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

You expect to cultivate your consciousness and everything to keep on feeling physical?
Then you're just cultivating your Taiji energy, which will disperse with the body after death and not your consciousness.

 

So cultivation that involves pre-heaven energies will not create tangible changes in the post-heaven body?

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Every Hu Fa Shen can read your mind and will treat you according to your stubbornness, arrogance, ignorance, wisdom, ethics, expectations and so forth.
They have an endless ways to test you.

Keep looking for palpable experiences and your Hu Fa Shen will make certain that even while you're being refined intensely, you don't get any.

 

Well that's annoying haha. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

NO, stop trying to OBSERVE and UNDERSTAND whats going on.
This is the crux of the problem.

You're trying to use information that your mind has accumulated within the span of a lifetime to fathom the unfathomable infinity of the Dao.
It is an inconceivably stupefying attempt of the mind of a frog trying to comprehend the mind of the whole ocean, from within a WELL.

It is always doomed to failure.

 

He seems to me more like a sincere seeker who is trying to get a handle on the arcane lingo and habits of the vast gallimaufry (ah, I got to use that word today, today was a good day) of weirdos who share a single moniker, "Daoist." Sure, perhaps a bit too much "brain," but I don't sense that this is a person who never wishes to practice. And surely a bit of thinking and questioning is better than none. Remember that you spent years doing your fair share and ended up in a place where you find yourself very happy. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

From the moment we are initiated we are directly absorbing primordial qi into the body which feeds the Xia Dantien and speeds up the whole process of work, which would otherwise have to be performed solely with ones own energy.

 

It's kind of like we plug-in and download the blueprint and the blueprint itself starts to recallibrate us form the inside, while Hu Fa Shen, the engineers, implements and administers the integration of the divine blueprint into the subtle energy and consciousness in a way that allows a steady gradual reversal of the post-natal state (ni).

 

This is interesting--the idea that it needs to be "downloaded." Other Daoist teachers I have met suggest that it is innate in the human being by virtue of the human being's very existence... nothing needs to be added, merely revealed. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

No they didn't.

It is not your choice.

There is a directive beyond your preferences.

They just accommodated your arrogance with a lolly-pop so you would shut your ego up.

Now you are just practising the same thing, thinking it is something else and It's kind of funny, but that is what you deserve : )

 

Sincere question: how do you know? I thought he walks away from initiation with a spiritual guide/friend who he can potentially quite literally talk to, and who chose him. If he's saying he was able to talk to his spirit guide, why does he need you to interpret the conversation for him, and to tell him his interpretation is wrong? How do you know that his spirit guide didn't plainly and straightforwardly "approve" of his request?

 

The reason I ask is because it seems like the premise of XYP is "you come here once, you get your guide, you go home and you practice, you never need to meet us again."

 

But your comments here sound very "religious," in the sense of the many religions where there are those who claim special ability to "know" what the heavens really intended, and who like to tell off "commoners" and remind them how they could never know what that so-to-speak Brahmans know...

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

I feel dirtied by the self-conceited egocentrism of this sentiment just by reading and replying to it.

 

Luckily the real cannot be sullied. You sound more like the Confucius than the Laozi of the story you mentioned above 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Physical immortality doesn't exist.

 

I've certainly never seen evidence to suggest that it does.

 

What evidence have you seen to prove that it does not?

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

There are no living physical immortals. Every Daoist and Buddhist school on the planet today that claims they have a lineage of physical immortals, have all buried their former masters in graves, or their founders would still be alive. When you ask them if their masters were buried or not, they all suddenly get very sensitive around this topic.

 

That's simply not true. 

 

Of course, the lore and hagiographies of various Daoist schools is unverifiable, but I know lots of Daoists who, if asked this sort of question, will start rattling off the names of various men and women in Daoist history who flew up into the sky when they left the world, vanished into nothingness, turned into light, etc. They don't get sensitive at all. Ditto for Buddhists who believe that Padmasambhava simply teleported to the land of ogres to continue spreading the Dharma and that Shakyamuni left a corpse on purpose to reduce people's attachment to the body. 

 

Finally, as these people have it, their ancestral are indeed still alive (beyond birth and death might be a more accurate attempt to word what they think about this) and do indeed appear, physically, to those who have the fate to meet them. Including, for instance, Tai Shang Lao Jun. 

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Please refer to my above replies to the former posters regarding some of the phases of Neidan in Xiao Yao Pai, which you're clearly ignorant of.

You first need to enrich your understanding of the word Dan in Daoism as well as Primordial Qi.

Most of your misunderstandings are due to very basic misconceptions in both order of and meaning of things in Neidan.

 

Lolol, I thought you said less knowledge was better???? I feel like I'm talking to Gerard in two posts at once...

 

On 2019/9/24 at 3:00 AM, effilang said:

Best wishes.

 

You too. 

[dwai]

I think the OP points to a basic question and a methodological as well as theoretical difference that exists between two main schools of spiritual practices. That of effort vs "no-effort". In all genuine spiritual traditions, there comes a time when the practitioner will have reached a stage where they start letting go of effort. This implies of course that they had to go through a process of "effort" to get to the point of "no effort". 

 

The fact of the matter is that what we're looking for, if it comes to the chimeral quest for "enlightenment",  no effort is necessary, because it (that which we're looking for)  is quite simply, our quintessential nature. However, there IS effort needed to become ready to realize that very fact. The reason effort is needed is because very simply, our minds are scattered and polluted by the distractions and garbage of the world that we consume on a regular basis. So the effort that is required is in cleaning up the mind, which is ultimately the tool that will enable us to realize the very simple fact about our true nature, that is "hidden in plain sight", so to speak. 

 

What makes this harder is that so much has been written and said about it in different traditions. There are so many theories and so many approaches to attain that which is unattainable (because it is already our true nature), that dilettantes (essentially most of the beginners who start upon this most admirable quest) end up getting quite confused.  

 

In fact, it is not just limited to dilettantes, but also seasoned practitioners who are confused right up till the point that the realization dawns upon them. Then it becomes clear that the conceptualizations they had been holding in their minds as "knowledge" was at best a weak facsimile of "reality". 

 

So in my observed opinion, I would say that the "direct path" (similar to Shen based traditions) and the "indirect path" (Jing-qi-shen based traditions) are both correct, but have to be put in their correct context. There are those who are born with exceptional clarity and are relatively unsullied by the world due to pristinely good karma from previous lives. The fact is that for most others, effort is required, along with the path of physical and energetic housekeeping and cleansing before the consciousness based approach becomes available. It is not good or bad, better or worse or even desirable or undesirable to use effort where required. It simply is a fact. So if you are one of those who don't "Get" the direct path, be honest with yourself and go back to the basics -- DO apply effort, because you need to. 

 

When the "Direct path" will become accessible to you, it will automatically happen. That's how the spiritual ways work.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

I think the OP points to a basic question and a methodological as well as theoretical difference that exists between two main schools of spiritual practices. That of effort vs "no-effort". In all genuine spiritual traditions, there comes a time when the practitioner will have reached a stage where they start letting go of effort. This implies of course that they had to go through a process of "effort" to get to the point of "no effort". 

 

The fact of the matter is that what we're looking for, if it comes to the chimeral quest for "enlightenment",  no effort is necessary, because it (that which we're looking for)  is quite simply, our quintessential nature. However, there IS effort needed to become ready to realize that very fact. The reason effort is needed is because very simply, our minds are scattered and polluted by the distractions and garbage of the world that we consume on a regular basis. So the effort that is required is in cleaning up the mind, which is ultimately the tool that will enable us to realize the very simple fact about our true nature, that is "hidden in plain sight", so to speak. 

 

What makes this harder is that so much has been written and said about it in different traditions. There are so many theories and so many approaches to attain that which is unattainable (because it is already our true nature), that dilettantes (essentially most of the beginners who start upon this most admirable quest) end up getting quite confused.  

 

In fact, it is not just limited to dilettantes, but also seasoned practitioners who are confused right up till the point that the realization dawns upon them. Then it becomes clear that the conceptualizations they had been holding in their minds as "knowledge" was at best a weak facsimile of "reality". 

 

So in my observed opinion, I would say that the "direct path" (similar to Shen based traditions) and the "indirect path" (Jing-qi-shen based traditions) are both correct, but have to be put in their correct context. There are those who are born with exceptional clarity and are relatively unsullied by the world due to pristinely good karma from previous lives. The fact is that for most others, effort is required, along with the path of physical and energetic housekeeping and cleansing before the consciousness based approach becomes available. It is not good or bad, better or worse or even desirable or undesirable to use effort where required. It simply is a fact. So if you are one of those who don't "Get" the direct path, be honest with yourself and go back to the basics -- DO apply effort, because you need to. 

 

When the "Direct path" will become accessible to you, it will automatically happen. That's how the spiritual ways work.

 

You would be easy with this topic as India as Jnana Yoga, Raja Yoga and Karma Yoga - the series of books by Vivekananda are great on this topic. Gurdjieff also assimilated these differences by advocating his 4th Way that supposedly integrated the way of the Fakir (body) , Monk (emotion) and Yogi (mind).

 

I would recommend on this topic to read the books of Master Nan, Huai-jin or Master Nan, Huai-chin. They are not easy reads. I had to read the books three times just to grasp the basic concepts.

 

So Master Nan makes fun of monks who can not even sit in full lotus padmasana for one full day ! And then he says one full week of padmasana full lotus yoga is required to really get into the Emptiness - this is also detailed in the book Taoist Yoga: alchemy and immortality with one day called "minor serenity" and one week of full lotus samadhi Emptiness called a major serenity - and the goal then is 49 days or 7 weeks of full lotus padmasana meditation.

 

So the point being that the mind is easily confused but through full lotus meditation (Wang Liping advocates six hours a day for one year to restore the jing back to a 16 year old) - then the Emptiness is effortless achieved. In other words as Master Nan, Huai-chin points out - what we consider to be not needing Effort by the Mind is actually just another trick of the ego of the mind.

 

 

[Eden]

My teacher would say something like : Lets put a little effort in an meet God halfway.. 

By this I think he means that the bottom--> up awakening of cultivating the jing and chi and shen is like reaching out toward God/BuddhaNature/Emptiness/The Natural State , and it eventually gets to the point in cultivation that Emptiness reaches out to you and pulls you in. The see saw tips and there is less effort of trying to reach a certain State and more just resting in Being. Then that resting in Being continues all the physical/emotional/mental/psychological transformations that were already taking place. 

Or there are some that discover their Natural State and all the transformations happen just from resting and not being anxious or agitated and leaking all their energy away. 

 

[exorcist_1699]

The mentioned two  ways are both Taoist : 

 

1) Shen/Xing first , Meng ( jing + qi ) later (先性後命)

 

or

 

2) Meng first , Xing later ( 先命後性)

 

What way you adopt is somehow  age related .  Likely for old guys, say those  over  60 , you are suggested to adopt the Meng-first way because Taoist cultivation is a long-run enterprise , in your  60s, the main job is to lengthen  your  physical life, getting  ride of disease and aging symptoms  so that continuous cultivation possible  . Besides, at that age, you can't attain spiritual achievement so easily ,and seeing that no immediate effect of it, you might give it up . Also Meng-first way can give you significant effects quickly, you will get the confidence to continue.  However, this way is also said to be  "  先易後難"   ( Seemingly easy first but difficult  later ) because you leave the critical spiritual  issue ( emptying your mind issue)  to  the late  period of your cultivation which inevitably block the advance of the whole process. 

 

On the other hand, gifted young guys can adopt the Xing-first way . Although it is difficult at the beginning, but once you have grasped the character of  Shen ,  other things become trivial and easy . So it is also said to be a  " 先難後易" way  ( " Difficult first but later much easy"  ).

Edited October 15, 2019 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:41 AM, Desmonddf said:

 

Not exactly. What you described as Jing - Qi - Shen is one of the many forms of doing it, but there are other forms and this idea of "forget everything and become enlightened" is mostly a perversion of old teachings.

 

 

 

"Forget everything and become enlightened"  is extremely difficult  for most people , it is like asking a  bug which  is living and moving on a 2D world, wholly fixed  in it ,  to  jump out of that 2D plane,  entering into an unknown space ; it is nearly impossible  because that  bug just doesn't  sense and understand what that extra 3rd dimension  can  be .  Similarly , although our consciousness and analytic mind give us very powerful  ability  to analyze , imagine, dream ,  even an intuitive ability to grasp the core of things at one stroke,  Enlightenment  as   another dimension*  of our 3D world and always described by Taoism  as something capable of  'breaking  open a primordial hole '    (' 鴻蒙竅' ) in emptiness ,  is still  too difficult for our attaching-to-the-3D-world  mind to understand . We are  fully trapped in it  through our senses ( '法執' )    and our  entanglement of its inward projection , our pseudo-egos ('我執') . 

 

However , the  seemingly Buddhist way of  forget-everything-and-become-enlightened  can be combined with Taoist jing-qi-shen  as we get the famous saying ( in fact , a way ) from a Taoist master : "忘形以養氣，忘氣以養神，忘神以養虛 " (" Forget forms ,  jing or physical stuff ,  so as to nourish qi,  forget qi so as to nourish shen , forget shen so as to nourish emptiness " )  . Of course, we  have to be capable of mobilizing qi first in order to forget it  , and it  can be  done  step by step , or at  one stroke  .  So,  it is   something practical , not necessarily elusive .

 

* Most people refer  time  as the 4th dimension of our 3D world ,  which I  prefer to leave it aside for future exploration ;  however , I do think that maybe we can explore  time along with qi , see my previous post on such issue.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by exorcist_1699

[Sebastian]

1 hour ago, exorcist_1699 said:

from a Taoist master : "忘形以養氣，忘氣以養神，忘神以養虛 " (" Forget forms ,  jing or physical stuff ,  so as to nourish qi,  forget qi so as to nourish shen , forget shen so as to nourish emptiness "

Thanks. Which Master or book is this from ?

[exorcist_1699]

On 10/12/2019 at 1:40 PM, Sebastian said:

Thanks. Which Master or book is this from ?

 

It comes from a Taoist master Tan Qiao ("譚峭")   who lived at the end of the Tang Dynasty .

[Spotless]

What appears to be the long path is generally the shortest and most sure.

 

Much discussion would have you believe that 10 or 20 years is a long time - it is not - and it is not as though great and miraculous transformations are not happening all along the path. Nor does it always require a great deal of time - much can take place in just a few years - or months.

 

Upon Awakening a foundation in the "bottom up approach" - an organic self revealing no-effort approach affords incredible strength in the simple habits that have been formed and the roots that are fully established in the gross physical and gross subtle bodies and in the subtle bodies.

 

Even a few years in foundational practice will be of tremendous benefit if you move to top down practices - you will be far more grounded in fundamental practice and weather the winds in the head and heart far better. 

 

It is extremely easy to fallter even in the most exquisite of ways from the top down approach - and it is easy to become as the rabbit - very impressed with oneself and the many siddhis but unable to move beyond their mesmerizing effects while absolutely certain one is under no spell at all. One can reach very high degrees of being stuck and few will see the difference.

 

If you own the mountain the head and heart will have no fear - refuge is never an issue. In the more heady teachings and heart teachings answers and assistance from the outside is more often sought and anxiousness and doubt abound. Heavy reliance on words and concepts create a vagueness and self reproach or dogmatic repetition of thinking.

 

The bottom up approach encompasses the whole - nowhere does it not include the head and the heart and the bodies both subtle and gross

 

The domino effect is only partially true - the idea that "a full head or heart opening" - 'enlightenment" will take care of the rest - this is false thinking however true it may happen. Much continues and much may not continue - it very much depends on the foundation of practice.  Enlightenment is not a finished state.