Continuation

[ilumairen]

7 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Keeping an eye out for like minded individuals is how we all found each other.

 

 

Ah, then @Zork did have your number regarding what he referred to as recruitment..

 

Apologies for my misunderstanding, and thinking the like minded individuals you referred to were those you felt your system needed defense from. 

 

Edit to add, with your most recent post I've realized this is convoluted beyond what I enjoy looking into and unraveling. Best wishes to you on your path.

Edited September 11, 2019 by ilumairen

[MegaMind]

33 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Ah, then @Zork did have your number regarding what he referred to as recruitment..

 

Apologies for my misunderstanding, and thinking the like minded individuals you referred to were those you felt your system needed defense from. 

 

Edit to add, with your most recent post I've realized this is convoluted beyond what I enjoy looking into and unraveling. Best wishes to you on your path.

 

I don't blame you at all, it gets real ugly real quick, even worse than the old Trump political threads.

 

Best wishes to you as well.

Edited September 11, 2019 by MildMouse23

[Zork]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

This seems likely to create a "hall of mirrors" effect where people who have nothing at all to say about your system are seen as "like minded individuals" for sharing their thoughts on whatever unrelated subject, and those who are keeping an eye out create a self fulfilling prophecy by interjecting where they feel a system not being attacked must be defended. 

 

Messy stuff imo.

You really have no idea how aggressively they weed out anyone that does not share their opinion without dissent.

Look here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueQiGong/comments/b5zyuc/just_wasted_half_a_day_trying_to_answer_bizarre/

Look at the questions asked by the mod. Do they remind you of someone else?

Plus if someone doesn't share the same opinions he isn't allowed in.

You have to admit that video is good evidence (hint: it isn't and no really intelligent person would concede that) to get in.

[MegaMind]

3 minutes ago, Zork said:

You really have no idea how aggressively they weed out anyone that does not share their opinion without dissent.

Look here: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueQiGong/comments/b5zyuc/just_wasted_half_a_day_trying_to_answer_bizarre/

Look at the questions asked by the mod. Do they remind you of someone else?

Plus if someone doesn't share the same opinions he isn't allowed in.

You have to admit that video is good evidence (hint: it isn't and no really intelligent person would concede that) to get in.

 

Hi Zork,

 

None of us practice Qigong.

[Zork]

1 hour ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Hi Zork,

 

None of us practice Qigong.

ROFL!

Of course you do!

At the levels that you practice there is no neigong happening. You are doing chi gung whether you like it or not!

[MegaMind]

22 minutes ago, Zork said:

ROFL!

Of course you do!

At the levels that you practice there is no neigong happening. You are doing chi gung whether you like it or not!

 

The system we practice is a school of neigong, not a school of qigong.

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, Zork said:

Can you please elaborate because i don't see the connection?

 

The description of the fascist narrative in Encephalon’s post put me in mind of the historical MoPai narrative here which was often presented in a way that is highly critical, demeaning, and dismissive of all others systems and opinions (with the exception of tummo, to be fair).

 

[Nungali]

On 11/09/2019 at 1:59 AM, liminal_luke said:

I suffer from a persistent delusion, the idea that it´s possible to win an argument on the internet. 

 

No way ! That IS impossible !

 

On 11/09/2019 at 1:59 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

 

Despite a great deal of evidence to the contrary, I believe that if I present myself logically my debate opponents will carefully consider what I have to say, come to realize that they were wrong, gracefully acknowledge the correctness of my view.

 

Oh ... well, when you put it like that you do have a point .

 

Yes, maybe you where right after all .

 

 

On 11/09/2019 at 1:59 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

  This basically never happens.  It´s much more common that people simply ignore me and reassert their own view.  And so on it goes...

 

Thank you for expanding my viewpoint and understanding .  I think I will now change my mind about this .

 

On 11/09/2019 at 1:59 AM, liminal_luke said:

 

This is what I see happening here.  It´s very hard for me to disengage.  I want others to see that I am right and come around to my side but that´s just not gonna happen.  Resistance, as they say, is futile.

 

 

Resistance is futile ?    Hmmm ... maybe I agree with that too .

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Best not to have that conversation here.

 

 

Yeah ... best not .

 

Lets have some music instead    

 

 

 

 

 

You can't seem to face up to the facts
You're tense and nervous and you
Can't relax
You can't sleep 'cause your bed's on fire
Don't touch him he's  a real live wire     


You start a conversation you can't even finish it  ^ 
You're talkin' a lot, but you're not sayin' anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
Say something once, why say it again?

...
We are vain and we are blind
I hate people when they're not polite

Psycho Killer
Qu'est-ce que c'est ?
fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better
Run run run run run run run away

oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Some people here do care, not many but some.

 

They keep quite because just like the right wing trolls that destroyed this place, the vocal group that opposes our system shuts down any attempt at discussion here. 

 

The behavior is exactly the same.

 

Ideally if there were a moratorium on its discussion everyone would be better off.

 

Until a moratorium comes, we will try and keep our eyes out here for like minded individuals.

 

 

 

Well ... thats an 'interesting'  admission  !

 

 

Do you have a cheap wig and high collared shirt to hide the shaved head and the tulsi neck beads ?

 

 

[ralis]

3 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

The system we practice is a school of neigong, not a school of qigong.

Which neigong system? Is that too much to ask? BTW, your narrative reminds me of someone that posted here a number of years ago and was either banned or left. 

[MegaMind]

1 minute ago, ralis said:

Which neigong system? Is that too much to ask? BTW, your narrative reminds me of someone that posted here a number of years ago and was either banned or left. 

 

Best not to have that conversation here.

[MegaMind]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 

The description of the fascist narrative in Encephalon’s post put me in mind of the historical MoPai narrative here which was often presented in a way that is highly critical, demeaning, and dismissive of all others systems and opinions (with the exception of tummo, to be fair).

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

I think the best way to explain it is our group is looking for practices that have a certain type, and a certain degree of evidence behind them. 

 

The two practices you mentioned meet those criteria, and we all keep searching hoping that more teachers will come forward willing to demonstrate their practice in such a manner. 

 

Not being interested in something unless there what you consider good evidence isn't "demeaning, and dismissive of all others systems and opinions", it is just being reasonable and rational.

[Earl Grey]

3 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Yeah ... best not .

 

Lets have some music instead    

 

 

 

 

 

You can't seem to face up to the facts
You're tense and nervous and you
Can't relax
You can't sleep 'cause your bed's on fire
Don't touch him he's  a real live wire     


You start a conversation you can't even finish it  ^ 
You're talkin' a lot, but you're not sayin' anything
When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed
Say something once, why say it again?

...
We are vain and we are blind
I hate people when they're not polite

Psycho Killer
Qu'est-ce que c'est ?
fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa fa far better
Run run run run run run run away

oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ralis said:

Which neigong system? Is that too much to ask? BTW, your narrative reminds me of someone that posted here a number of years ago and was either banned or left. 

 

Sigh, here we go again.

 

I think this link here is useful on the four control dramas: 

 

Quote

Next is the Interrogator, who gets to feel good by asking questions that are borderline aggressive, certainly they are aimed at making the other person feel small so that the interrogator can feel superior to them.  

 

Questions like “Have you thought about going on a diet?”, “Why don’t you do that differently?” and “Why are you so hopeless?” and “Come on, TALK to me!” are not nice questions are they?  And questions like “You know why that happened don’t you?” are tricky because whatever you say they are going to say “Oh no no no, you’ve missed the point”.  That’s the interrogator.

 

Then there’s the Aloof, which is a common response to an Interrogator parent or an interrogator partner – the Aloof copes with other people by acting distant & hiding what they really think, and either not answering at all or answering evasively, maybe with short non-committal answers like “Maybe” or “I don’t know really”.  

 

They might drop vague hints, which in turn may mean that you ask even more questions in order to engage with them. You can imagine how an Aloof person could use this as a defensive strategy, but also you can see how the aloof will encourage others to interrogate them to try to find out what they really think.  The Aloof encourages the Interrogator, and the Interrogator encourages the Aloof. 

 

Finally there’s the fourth way to control others and that’s the Poor Me.  These people take the victim position, saying their life is awful and it’s all unfair, and they use guilt or pity to manipulate you.  They might say “It’s fine, I’ll just carry on, I’m used to doing everything by myself” or even “After all I have done for you, you let me down like this.”

 

Even more detailed from the site: 

A Deeper Look At The Interrogator Control Drama

More aggressive personality is the Interrogator “Control Drama.” You know when you run into this style of manipulation because you suddenly feel criticized, and begin to monitor your actions so that you feel less vulnerable. Usually, the person playing such a game has learned to put someone down (sometimes under the disguise of being helpful) to seize control of the relationship. Subtle criticizing forces the other person to lose confidence, and begin to look at themselves through the eyes of the Interrogator, and so, giving them power and energy.

 

Manipulative comments by an Interrogator could be about appearance: “Don’t you feel a bit under-dressed at this occasion.” Or behavior: “I can’t believe you said that.” Or intelligence: “You really aren’t smart enough to compete in that job.” It could be any manner of criticism. Ultimately, it is all about throwing the other person off balance so they will defer leadership in the relationship to the Interrogator.

 

Again, this moves all the energy of the larger joined mind of the two, and all the good feelings and security it produces, into the consciousness of the perpetrator. To the victim, it feels like an immediate diminishment and a loss of well-being. How do you transcend this Interrogator game and bring the sharing of the joined mind into balance?

 

Do not shout, or run away. Stay connected and do not use another “Control Drama.” Name the game by authentically expressing exactly how you are feeling, “Every time I’m around you, I feel criticized.” This will immediately collapse the manipulation as the Interrogator has to move toward authenticity and deal with your feelings.

 

The first response you will probably hear is that you are wrong. Hold fast to your beliefs, and maintain your new-found strength. The goal here, as before, is to not become an Interrogator or an Aloof yourself, nor to try moving all the energy over to yourself in order to deflate the person.

 

Even if the Interrogator never admits the game, your remark will stay with the person. And if others follow your example and expose the manipulation at other times, the person will, hopefully, get it then. If after discussing the situation openly, you find you were wrong, perhaps too sensitive, or the comments from the other were not a game at all but were actually meant to be helpful, then you have done what was necessary to bring your relationship into authentic truth and growth.

A Deeper Look At The Aloof Control Drama

The Aloof “Control Drama” is less passive than the Poor Me Control Drama, yet still tries to lure you into connection by acting distant and unreadable. They want you to connect with them, but they only partially connect themselves, while withholding information.

 

Acting this way leads you into the pursuit of more knowledge about whom they are and what they are doing. When you do investigate and engage more of a connection, they respond with obscure facts released with a certain air of mystification. They also might imply that they know secrets no one else knows, and even that these secrets reveal something that the pursuing person desperately needs to know. This pushes you to further your inquiries.

 

Their effort is to get your attention solely on them and for you to subconsciously allow them to have control of the relationship. Thus giving them the uplifting energy of your connection. The victim of this tactic, in turn, feels depleted.

 

Some of the interactions with an Aloof person can be quite amusing. They are continually withdrawn, as the victim questions and stresses to get the Aloof to open up. One might ask, “What did you do last night,” and only receive a brief, cryptic answer. They might say, “I had a meeting with someone and came home late,” giving no details. Asking a follow-up question yields an equally distant reply.

 

How can you tell whether the person you are interacting with is playing the Aloof game or just doesn’t want to open up to you? Give up, walk off briefly, or just be silent. The Aloof person, who is actively pursuing the energy of the joint mind, will want to keep your connection. They will tend to give just a little more info to keep you interested, something such as, “It was a very successful meeting actually.” When you inquire more about that, they will seize control and go vague again.

 

What to do to break the Aloof game? Again, express precisely how you feel about this interaction. Say something such as, “Every time I try to get to know you or really share your life, I feel like I can never get a straight answer.” In this way, you have “named the game.” Just make sure you remain authentic to yourself, and don’t slip into your own “Control Drama” such as “the Interrogator,” which is the natural partner game to the Aloof.

A Deeper Look At The Poor Me Control Drama

This is the most passive of all the “Control Dramas.” This style is designed to get the other person to feel sorry for them using this indifferent manipulation. This lures them in to connect or reconnect with them in sympathy, which shifts the energy of the jointly connected minds to their control.

 

Here is how it works: the drama is designed to make you feel like you did something wrong, and were not “there” for them in a time of need. They may say something such as, “You were not there for me when all these bad things were happening.” Or more boldly, “After all I have done for you, you let me down like this.” This suddenly throws you off balance and brings your attention and connection back to them, as you consider whether what they are saying is true. When the game fully works, you connect deeply with them, trying to make amends.

 

When this happens, they feel good but you, in turn, feel drained or weakened. This is because they have seized control of the joint mind the two of you have created, moving you into a kind of voluntary deferral to their dominance.

 

You know that this is a game because even if you think they might have a point and you try to comfort them, they never quite interact authentically. They always carry the air of one wronged. No matter how attentive you are, they want more, and they often repeat the game by naming some other guilt-inducing accusation at you.

 

How do you end the “Poor Me” game?

 

The solution is simple, though sometimes difficult. Dr. Eric Bern, in his famous book “The Games People Play,” advised a simple solution where you do not angrily fight back or leave, but instead help them break out of their game. You “name the game.” In fact, naming the game is exactly what you have to do to stop any of the other “Control Dramas” as well.

 

One person cannot play games successfully, unless the other person who is being manipulated plays along, to some extent. Usually, this happens when they are not honest about what they feel, or often using a counter game of their own. By naming the game, you bring the interaction back to authenticity by honestly revealing what you feel.

 

Plainly say something such as, “Sometimes I feel you try to make me feel guilty in order to control me.” What you are saying is the truth as you know it, and the truth always sets you, and the other person, free.

 

Now they might argue with you, or guilt trip you a little more, but stick to your guns. Say, “I am just telling you how I feel.” Pose it in that way because it might be possible you are wrong. They are reacting rational to the situation, and everything they say is true. If that is the case, then that truth will also emerge once the conversation becomes authentic.

 

Another principle to employ in breaking the game, while also moving the interaction into a more genuine state, is to not use what you are saying to seize the connection back under your dominance. In fact, make sure that you speak to them with the assumption that they are rising into their own Divine Connection. In this way, they will be more likely to feel a greater increase in energy and will be less dependent on yours. Lastly, keep the conversation honest by sharing your own “Control Drama” tendencies with them.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Earl Grey

[thelerner]

2 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

I think the best way to explain it is our group is looking for practices that have a certain type, and a certain degree of evidence behind them. 

 

The two practices you mentioned meet those criteria, and we all keep searching hoping that more teachers will come forward willing to demonstrate their practice in such a manner. 

 

Not being interested in something unless there what you consider good evidence isn't "demeaning, and dismissive of all others systems and opinions", it is just being reasonable and rational.

..  ..

So.. how's the Western Mo Pai group doing these days? 

[Earl Grey]

I really don't want to say more than necessary at this point because I honestly still have no problem with their group or their system. 

 

The philosophy "stay in your own lane" works wonders here, as he can say and think what he wants about my practice, but it doesn't make my practice fake with what I've accomplished in terms of health, meditation, and martially against opponents, even grapplers and boxers. 

 

They can be here on the forum if they want and have the moratorium they desire, but if they expect us not to talk about Mo Pai, then likewise: we ask them not to bring it up themselves. Even alluding to it unsubtly counts.

 

Oddly enough, this started out with just a simple discussion on the limitations of learning from video, and as seen earlier, he said that my reasoning was a common argument used against the practice of his system--but I did not mention or allude to his system, he did and continued to go back to it when I told him that wasn't what I was referring to at all

 

No need to repeat my points and quote myself for examples--anyone who read the first three pages can see already, and I also specified that I have qualms with MildMouse23 as an individual, not his group or his practice. As he refuses to give an apology or stand down, let alone consider how others may feel instead of his own narcissistic solipsistic world view, then I wash my hands of any angst he invites upon himself and take a back seat from any further comments here--unless he continues to provoke and directly antagonize me. 

 

By the way: to those of you in the northern hemisphere, it is technically still the Summer of Love all over again. 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Earl Grey

[doc benway]

11 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Hi Steve,

 

I think the best way to explain it is our group is looking for practices that have a certain type, and a certain degree of evidence behind them. 

 

The two practices you mentioned meet those criteria, and we all keep searching hoping that more teachers will come forward willing to demonstrate their practice in such a manner. 

 

Not being interested in something unless there what you consider good evidence isn't "demeaning, and dismissive of all others systems and opinions", it is just being reasonable and rational.

 

You're familiar enough with the threads I allude to that you either get my point or choose not to.

And I'll let it go at this point.

Peace

 

 

[Zork]

16 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

The system we practice is a school of neigong, not a school of qigong.

What you have available in the first two levels are qigong exercises aimed at preparing the body for LDT activation.

They have nothing to do with Neigong. Mo pai is a neikung school but the alchemy happens later. In the beginning it is just qigong.

Even if you could awaken your LDT it would be useless to you because you have no idea how to clear your meridians or "widen" them to exploit the qi stored in the LDT.

 

So please cut the crap about your group practicing neikung!

If you insist on this nonsense just explain to us which exercise of the 2 at your disposal transmutes the 3 treasures.

[MegaMind]

2 hours ago, Zork said:

What you have available in the first two levels are qigong exercises aimed at preparing the body for LDT activation.

They have nothing to do with Neigong. Mo pai is a neikung school but the alchemy happens later. In the beginning it is just qigong.

Even if you could awaken your LDT it would be useless to you because you have no idea how to clear your meridians or "widen" them to exploit the qi stored in the LDT.

 

So please cut the crap about your group practicing neikung!

If you insist on this nonsense just explain to us which exercise of the 2 at your disposal transmutes the 3 treasures.

 

Hi Zork,

 

We see having 3 levels better than having 0 levels.

 

We all do the best we can with what we have.

 

At the moment we know of no better options available to us, but will continue to hope that some new teacher is willing to provide the type and quality of evidence we require.

[MegaMind]

4 hours ago, steve said:

 

You're familiar enough with the threads I allude to that you either get my point or choose not to.

And I'll let it go at this point.

Peace

 

 

 

If you feel that people asking for what they consider good evidence before investing their lives into a practice as "highly critical, demeaning, and dismissive of all others systems and opinions "  then you are mistaken, because it is not.

 

Best wishes to you.

[Zork]

25 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Hi Zork,

 

We see having 3 levels better than having 0 levels.

 

We all do the best we can with what we have.

 

At the moment we know of no better options available to us, but will continue to hope that some new teacher is willing to provide the type and quality of evidence we require.

That has nothing to do with what i asked you. Again which of your exercises and by which method transmutes the three treasures?

 

If you don't answer which one specifically you admit by default that there is no neikung in your 3 level system.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Zork

[doc benway]

19 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

If you feel that people asking for what they consider good evidence before investing their lives into a practice as "highly critical, demeaning, and dismissive of all others systems and opinions "  then you are mistaken, because it is not.

This is simply an attempt at deflection.

It may be working for you but most of us see through it, I suspect.

I do not consider asking for evidence a problem.

 

It's quite clear that multiple people are, or have been, highly reactive to you and your "group" over the years.

They consistently state that it is not your system, it is reactivity to your presentation and communication which at times have had those characteristics in the past. I think the invective has softened over the years but it's obviously still enough to cause reactivity in some. You can use the reactivity you experience as feedback that can help refine your communication and presentation skills, or you can simply pretend everyone else is wrong and ignore it.

Your choice.

 

19 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Best wishes to you.

And you

 

[MegaMind]

22 minutes ago, Zork said:

That has nothing to do with what i asked you. Again which of your exercises and by which method transmutes the three treasures?

 

If you don't answer which one specifically you admit by default that there is no neikung in your 3 level system.

 

 

You are combining terminologies and methodologies from different systems, as such your question is non sequitur.

Edited September 12, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MegaMind]

5 minutes ago, steve said:

This is simply an attempt at deflection.

It may be working for you but most of us see through it, I suspect.

I do not consider asking for evidence a problem.

 

It's quite clear that multiple people are, or have been, highly reactive to you and your "group" over the years.

They consistently state that it is not your system, it is reactivity to your presentation and communication which at times have had those characteristics in the past. I think the invective has softened over the years but it's obviously still enough to cause reactivity in some. You can use the reactivity you experience as feedback that can help refine your communication and presentation skills, or you can simply pretend everyone else is wrong and ignore it.

Your choice.

 

And you

 

 

No attempt at deflection.

 

[doc benway]

1 minute ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

No attempt at deflection.

 

 

Cool