Continuation

[MegaMind]

20 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

If you really want discussion about Mo Pai to stop, Mildmouse, you could lead the way by not contributing to the discussion.  For instance, you could refuse to reply to this and all subsequent posts in this thread.  The conversation would dry up quick, I assure you.  You could engage in threads about other topics and not interpret everything through the lens of your practice and practice group.  The only reason people know you´re involved with Mo Pai at all is that you´ve said so.  If you stop saying so people will forget and you´ll get the moratorium you say you want -- and save the millions of dollars you imagine it would take to buy the forum from Sean!

 

Of course you may want to talk about Mo Pai and that´s fine.  I just wish you´d actually really talk about it -- the technique, the results, etc.  If it´s not safe to talk about it because people here are too...well, I don´t know what...but anyway, if you can´t talk about it here, then don´t.  That´s fine too.  

 

 

We took a long break from the forum, after another member was banned after complaining about the behavior of moderator who absolutely hated Mo Pai and our group, and how doing exactly as instructed resulted in punishment. 

 

During this break the Mo Pai wars continued, albeit with a lot more disinformation about the practice.

[MegaMind]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Somehow I don't think this is how "they" view the dynamic.. and I'm wondering what it would take for the dynamic to shift for all involved. 

 

A moratorium on Mo Pai discussion would work just fine.

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

Oh I can answer this one, and I can explain it quite well. 

 

However I cannot do it here publicly without dumping a truckload of gasoline on this fire.

 

Feel free to send me a PM if you like.

 

Presently, I'm thinking it's burning anyway, and if we create a big enough conflagration perhaps some of the karmic seeds would burn off - clearing the way for a new dynamic to unfold..

 

[ilumairen]

1 minute ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

A moratorium on Mo Pai discussion would work just fine.

 

This isn't plausible (for a number of reasons) imo.

[MegaMind]

Just now, ilumairen said:

 

Presently, I'm thinking it's burning anyway, and if we create a big enough conflagration perhaps some of the karmic seeds would burn off - clearing the way for a new dynamic to unfold..

 

 

It would reach trump discussion level absurdity as it always does.

 

Please feel free to PM me.

[MegaMind]

Just now, ilumairen said:

 

This isn't plausible (for a number of reasons) imo.

 

Worked well for the right wing political garbage.

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Somehow I don't think this is how "they" view the dynamic.. and I'm wondering what it would take for the dynamic to shift for all involved. 

 

The dialogue you quoted from me was probably a little heavy-handed.  I just wanted to illustrate the nature of my own frustration with the subject.  Your gentle questioning of the dynamic and how it might change is certainly a breath of fresh air.  It would be amazing if space opens up here to have a real discussion of Mo Pai.  Or else to drop the topic altogether.  Personally, I don´t think that will happen because the people who could contribute to that discussion don´t want it, nor do they wish, really, to drop the topic.  Guess I´ll wait and see.

[MegaMind]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

The dialogue you quoted from me was probably a little heavy-handed.  I just wanted to illustrate the nature of my own frustration with the subject.  Your gentle questioning of the dynamic and how it might change is certainly a breath of fresh air.  It would be amazing if space opens up here to have a real discussion of Mo Pai.  Or else to drop the topic altogether.  Personally, I don´t think that will happen because the people who could contribute to that discussion don´t want it, nor do they wish, really, to drop the topic.  Guess I´ll wait and see.

 

 

You can't have a discussion when you have a small army of people who are determined to disrupt every sentence, and attempt to discredit everything and everyone associated with it.

 

I just is not possible.

[liminal_luke]

2 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

You can't have a discussion when you have a small army of people who are determined to disrupt every sentence, and attempt to discredit everything and everyone associated with it.

 

I just is not possible.

 

And yet this thread has gone on long enough.  

[Earl Grey]

6 hours ago, sean said:

Despite the original title, was the OP a personal attack? It seems sincere to me but maybe I'm missing subtext? @Earl Grey did you feel attacked?

 

Is it possible that members involved with Mo Pai simultaneously:

1. Are not at liberty to discuss details of the practice
2. Want to prevent egregious misunderstandings

And that this explains their behavior and is not actually a big deal?

 

Sean

 

 

5 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

Hi Sean,

 

I've looked back at every post I've made and I don't see any reason whatsoever for Earl to be upset. 

 

I sincerely have no clue what is causing him to be so angry, other than he lost an argument.

 

The five year-old summary:

 

Baby Earl in other thread was playing with everyone else in the sandbox talking about watching cartoons, and especially this cool cartoon Baby Taomeow brought, “Nu Pogodi!” and how they think some cartoons aren't so great. 

 

Baby Mouse comes and starts saying people like Baby Earl are saying silly things about the cartoon.

 

Baby Earl says some people like silly things like the cartoon but there are better things he likes more than that cartoon, like the cool things games his teacher showed him.

 

Baby Mouse says people shouldn’t say silly things about cartoons because people like him love cartoons and that teachers are scawy and vewy bad.

 

Baby Earl said it’s okay to like cartoons and also teacher’s games.

 

Baby Mouse keeps saying Baby Earl is saying cartoons are bad. But that isn't what Baby Earl said. 

 

Baby Mouse writes Baby Earl’s name on the chalkboard and says “PLAY WIF ME EARL!” and all the adults before would have said that's a no-no. 

 

Baby Earl goes to play because Baby Earl thinks Baby Mouse is having a terrible, horrible, no good vewy bad day, especially because all his fwends are gone and he’s scawed to pway here. Baby Earl wants Baby Mouse to pway wif e’rryone.

 

Baby Mouse says Baby Earl and everyone are saying his favorite cartoon is Schoolhouse Rocks and nobody likes him because they just wanna watch and play Power Rangers, which is sooooo stoooopid.

 

Baby Earl says he doesn’t have a problem with Schoolhouse Rocks, he just likes other tv shows more but has fun in his class. But Baby Earl was just talking about cartoons in general, not Schoolhouse Rocks.

 

Baby Mouse says Baby Earl is no fair for hating Schoolhouse Rocks. He likes Schoolhouse Rocks.

 

Baby Earl says he wasn’t saying Schoolhouse Rocks sucks, he just didn’t think it was that great and doesn’t like some cartoons. Baby Earl thought Baby Mouse wanted to play and talk about different cartoons, but Baby Mouse wants to cry about Schoolhouse Rocks.

 

Baby Luke comes and says some cartoons like Schoolhouse Rocks are okay but he also likes the games he learned from his teacher and likes Muppet Babies even.

 

Baby Mouse said Baby Luke can’t play because he’s a meanie and erry’one else is too.

 

Baby Earl says Baby Luke can play because it’s a sandbox and Baby Mouse keeps saying nobody wants to play with him. Besides, Baby Earl thinks Baby Luke is cool and says Baby Luke is nice to everyone.

 

Baby Mouse keeps saying Baby Earl doesn’t like Schoolhouse Rocks and everyone else hates it.

 

Baby Earl says he wasn’t even talking about Schoolhouse Rocks because he was just talking about cartoons in general and the games he learned from his teacher. Baby Earl says some poor kids don’t have cable, some kids can’t wake up to watch cartoons on Saturday because they gotta go to their parents’ store, and some kids don’t even have a TV. But it’s okay to like cartoons as he likes some too.

 

Baby Mouse says Baby Earl just doesn’t like Schoolhouse Rocks and is saying the same thing other meanies say about why Schoolhouse Rocks is bad because it’s just a cartoon.

 

Baby Earl says HE LIKES SOME CARTOONS, just not all and has no problem if Baby Mouse likes Schoolhouse Rocks. Baby Earl says some people just don’t have TV or can’t watch it or don’t like cartoons. Some people don't understand it because they don't speak Engrish. 

 

Baby Mouse says if people don’t like cartoons then they don’t like Schoolhouse Rocks and he and his friends think nobody likes Schoolhouse Rocks.

 

Baby Earl keeps asking if he knows some kids don’t have cable or even a TV, and whose house he has gone to, Baby Mouse doesn’t answer. Baby Mouse just keeps talking about Schoolhouse Rocks.

 

Baby Zork tells him Schoolhouse Rocks is okay too but Baby Mouse only actually has the first three tapes and they never made more tapes. Baby Zork also says Baby Mouse is trying to get everyone to say they don’t like Baby Mouse or his friends because they don’t like Schoolhouse Rocks.

 

Baby Earl gets fed up and decides to stop playing with Baby Mouse because Baby Mouse keeps talking about Schoolhouse Rocks and Baby Earl only came to play with him and talk about cartoons in general and games he likes to play. 

 

Baby Earl then says people don’t think Baby Mouse and his friends are bad because of Schoolhouse Rocks, but because Baby Mouse is acting like a poopie head. Baby Mouse is being a poopie head and draws a picture of Baby Mouse as a poopie head because he keeps saying people hate Schoolhouse Rocks even though Baby Earl never brought it up and Baby Earl even has no problem with Schoolhouse Rocks, he just doesn’t like all cartoons, only some. Baby Mouse still doesn't think he's being annoying or a poopie head and gets mad that Baby Earl called him a poopie head. 

 

Baby Mouse keeps talking about Schoolhouse Rocks and how everyone hates it. Everyone asks him why he is talking about Schoolhouse Rocks. Baby Mouse says stop saying Schoolhouse Rocks sucks. 

 

Baby Earl doesn’t want to play anymore because he doesn’t like this game. Baby Mouse says he won the game and Baby Earl lost the Schoolhouse Rocks game. Baby Earl didn’t even know he was playing Baby Mouse’s game or arguing, he just wanted to play with Baby Mouse since he thought Baby Mouse was having a terrible, horrible, no good vewwy bad day. He doesn’t want to pway wif Baby Mouse anymore. Baby Mouse still won't answer any of the questions about countries or languages. 

 

Baby Earl said that Baby Mouse owed him an appy-lolly-golly on page 2 because Baby Mouse accused Baby Earl of saying things he didn't say and then refused to take it back or listen to what Baby Earl said. 

 

Baby Mouse continues to say nobody will play with him or his friends and everyone hates Schoolhouse Rocks.

 

Everyone else wonders what ever happened to “Nu Pogodi!” and the original conversation about cartoons. 

 

Baby Earl is now going back to bed because he only got up because Principal Sean asked him to say what’s wrong. Everyone else can play with Baby Mouse now or Baby Mouse can just play with himself.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Earl Grey

[ilumairen]

3 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

You can't have a discussion when you have a small army of people who are determined to disrupt every sentence, and attempt to discredit everything and everyone associated with it.

 

I just is not possible.

 

Just now, liminal_luke said:

 

And yet this thread has gone on long enough.  

 

Perhaps they would like some small modicum of respect before they're willing to "set their pearls before swine" - instead of what they likely perceive as their pearls being trampled in the mud?

 

He's willing to talk - where he senses some openness.. and to me, this says something. 

 

And before anyone gets grumpy about the swine comment, it's just a figure of speech which simply and easily conveys the general idea.

[MegaMind]

3 hours ago, sean said:

What is the "explain it like I'm 5" contention in this topic? I'm confused as to what's causing the escalation. Is this 7 pages about the pros/cons of learning from self-study of multimedia materials vs. in person? Is it about secrecy in traditions being inherently wrong somehow? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Sean

 

 

Part 1

 

The history goes back for many years while you were gone.

 

Any time the topic of Mo Pai comes up, it becomes a war zone. 

 

I suspect it has become a cultural phenomenon or past time for a large number of thedaobums members.

 

Grab the popcorn we going to have another public stoning!

 

They seem to enjoy doing whatever they can, whenever they can, however they can to disrupt any conversation that occurs on the topic, and discredit and humiliate anyone associated with it.

 

There is nothing causing an escalation other than that, I suspect it is just entertainment for them.

 

Threads on the topic continue to rage on exactly like the right wing political threads, and the behavior is the same.

 

I wish more than anything we could convince you to place a moratorium on Mo Pai discussion here so we didn't have to deal with this nonsense.  PLEASE.

 

Part 2

 

How this thread got started.

 

There was a thread located here:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49729-and-thats-why-i-shun-new-and-improved-interpretations-and-combining-practices-and-a-creative-approach-to-any-original-sources/

 

 

In the thread TaoMeow created there is a video.

 

The video shows people doing a group exercise playing a game of telephone or "Chinese Whispers".

 

The first person pretends to crank and ride a motorcycle, and relays that to the next person.

 

Over time this degrades into a motion like someone washing a window.

 

I made a comment which I shouldn't have because any time any one who has outed themselves as a member of our group says anything it becomes a flame war.

 

Here is what I said:

 

On 9/5/2019 at 9:57 PM, MildMouse23 said:

I speak with many people who quote authors who wrote books about the art I study.

 

The authors were never students, and what they teach has no resemblance to the art in question.

 

It is strange talking to people who want to argue that X, Y, and Z things should be done as part of the practice.

 

When I ask why they think that has anything at all to do with the practice they reference the aforementioned authors as authorities.

 

People also love to edit the original instructions by actual students and change them into something new and different.

 

Your video explains quite accurately the how teachings are corrupted and misinformation is transmitted.

 

 

To this there was a reply that keyboard warriors can only learn things from video, and anything can be faked.

 

I replied:

 

On 9/6/2019 at 1:07 PM, MildMouse23 said:

 

As to things being faked, bringing in scientists and medical doctors to rule out fraud on camera is as good as it can get.

...

 

Another person said that it was very difficult to precisely emulate our teachers as the cause for the corruption of transmitted information to which I replied:

 

On 9/6/2019 at 1:09 PM, MildMouse23 said:

 

I think the best option is here is to record actual teachings this way they are not altered or charged by people who "know better".

 

Then they said it is not possible to learn such things via video to which I replied:

 

On 9/6/2019 at 4:35 PM, MildMouse23 said:

 

Sometimes a practice is very simple and straight forward. 

 

In instances like that getting a video of a teacher explaining a simple concept is no different from being there in person and hearing the exact same words repeated.

 

 

Then someone said there was more to having a teacher than just an exchange of information.

 

I expressed how I do not believe in attunements or transmissions, only in correct information, and hard work.

 

Many people disagreed.

 

I made the point that if the people in the original video all saw the original source of the information, rather than having it slightly altered each time and then re-transmitted, this effect of the telephone Chinese whisper game would not manifest.

 

Someone argued you cannot learn things from video and I gave examples of people getting their PhD.s in higher mathematics and physics online by watching videos and other examples.

 

Liminal Luke then brought up Mo Pai and the blood was in the water at that point.

 

I was accused of derailing the thread so I created this one here since I don't have a PPD to do it in. 

 

My hope was that Earl and I could hash this out without another mo pai flame war starting.

 

That did not happen unfortunately.

 

In this thread I initially tried to keep to specific examples on how learning from video and audio do work well for many people, and they are able to master some of our most challenging subjects this way.

 

I explained how I had better experiences with video learning done by teachers who care, than real life classroom time with teachers that didn't.

 

Earl said " I’m not sure why it seems so important for you"

 

To which I replied I know it to be true first hand, and in the past the we only watch videos and read books etc has been used as an attack on our practice (this is besides the fact many were actual students of the top Western Student).  So I feel the need to defend against this.

 

For whatever reason this offended Earl greatly and he demanded an apology from me.

 

Pictures of people with genitals on their face get posted directed at me.

 

And the rest you can probably follow by skimming my responses in this thread.

 

That was the best job at ELI5 I can do for you.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MegaMind]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

Perhaps they would like some small modicum of respect before they're willing to "set their pearls before swine" - instead of what they likely perceive as their pearls being trampled in the mud?

 

He's willing to talk - where he senses some openness.. and to me, this says something. 

 

And before anyone gets grumpy about the swine comment, it's just a figure of speech which simply and easily conveys the general idea.

 

 

In private with like minded people wonderful discussions can be had.

[thelerner]

15 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

He didn't force anyone do anything, the elders of the school did.

 

His hands were tied, and they even removed him as head of the school for his decision to teach westerners.

 

Our teacher did reach a level higher than many Asian students.

 

Certainly when people alter original instruction, just like the orginal video this thread was split from, having video from the horses mouth is crucial, otherwise you wind up going from motorcycle rider to window washer.

Its kinda silly for me to keep posting here but..

When you write elders of the school, don't you mean Spirit Elders (literally), who came to him in a dream and told him to stop or else.  Which I can dig.. some lineages reputedly have such things happen. 

 

If you are referring to Jim McMillan, isn't that hard to measure?   Didn't he write that after a year and half John Chang told him he was doing the breathing the wrong/opposite way?  How long did he spend studying directly under JC?  Was it years or more of catch as catch can during long vacation stretches?   

 

I'm sure he was good dedicated student with talent, but Eastern teachers have been known to flatter naive Westerners cause they got money and connections that might be needed later.  Westerners can have a hard time separating myth, legend and leg pulling, which happens in the other direction too. 

 

 

[silent thunder]

I feed the neighborhood animals and birds daily.

Morning feeding is, shortly before dawn, seeds and dry food offerings thrown out for birds, squirrels n skunks.

 

Meat and bones, and various sundry leftovers are offered at sunset and/or late night for the gulls ravens, feral cats and raccoons.

 

For a time a family of raccoons was comin round routinely and some routine ruckus with neighbor dogs ensued.

I ceased night feedings nearby and soon, they stopped comin round.

[MegaMind]

12 hours ago, thelerner said:

Its kinda silly for me to keep posting here but..

When you write elders of the school, don't you mean Spirit Elders (literally), who came to him in a dream and told him to stop or else.  Which I can dig.. some lineages reputedly have such things happen. 

 

If you are referring to Jim McMillan, isn't that hard to measure?   Didn't he write that after a year and half John Chang told him he was doing the breathing the wrong/opposite way?  How long did he spend studying directly under JC?  Was it years or more of catch as catch can during long vacation stretches?   

 

I'm sure he was good dedicated student with talent, but Eastern teachers have been known to flatter naive Westerners cause they got money and connections that might be needed later.  Westerners can have a hard time separating myth, legend and leg pulling, which happens in the other direction too. 

 

 

 

When I refer to the elders intervening I mean physically, not in dreams.

 

Our teachers last exam was captured on video, and he passed with "flying" colors. 

 

Many Asian students could not pass that test.

 

This fact was confirmed in a letter to him from his teacher.

 

Our teacher was instructed to use a special breathing technique, however for whatever reason he did not do it.

 

He still passed level one even breathing normally, and we still provide the original instruction to breath as he was originally instructed to do.

 

The problem I think you are referring to is that while his teacher was on retreat in jungle in Borneo, he sought out a qigong master for advice on what to do next, and was told to do MCO.

 

When he finally caught up his teacher after he was back from retreat, he was furious with him, and made him choose MCO or our practice but not both.  He had to start over to undo the effects of MCO and this did set him back some.

 

As to him being flattered, right after his test ended he went to the bathroom and recreated the effects of his test to prove to himself it was not his teacher playing a trick on him.

[ralis]

3 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

Many Asian students could not pass that test.

 

 

 

 

Can you for one minute step out of your narrow minded view and understand the bold statement above? What it implies and how bigoted that statement is? Furthermore, classifying cultures by race is not based in science!

[MegaMind]

Just now, ralis said:

 

 

Can you for one minute step out of your narrow minded view and understand the bold statement above? What it implies and how bigoted that statement is? Furthermore, classifying cultures by race is not based in science!

 

It is a true statement.

[MegaMind]

Before you turn this into a race issue my point that he went further than many Asian students is only made because of the criticism that he misunderstood the teachings and the Asian students were the only ones to comprehend them.  

 

Obviously he did well, better than many others even.

 

I am not trying to say Western people are better at neikung than Asians.

Edited September 14, 2019 by MildMouse23

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

 

 

Can you for one minute step out of your narrow minded view and understand the bold statement above? What it implies and how bigoted that statement is? Furthermore, classifying cultures by race is not based in science!

 

To be fair, I believe he only points this out to the same extent the Eastern/Western Mo Pai argument is set forth against his practice by others. And he did repeatedly say there is no Eastern/Western Mo Pai - only Mo Pai, while others set forth the differentiation...

Edited September 14, 2019 by ilumairen

[ralis]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

To be fair, I believe he only points this out to the same extent the Eastern/Western Mo Pai argument is set forth against his practice by others. And he did repeatedly say there is no Eastern/Western Mo Pai - only Mo Pai, while others set forth the differentiation...

If he would have stated that he tested highest among all Mo Pai students that would not be a problem. However, his deference to Western elitism is a problem. 

[ilumairen]

 

On 9/13/2019 at 6:30 AM, MildMouse23 said:

We are not after recognition, or prestige, we only hope to find like minded people who share the same goals.

 

Was looking through the thread in an attempt to better understand the who's, how's, and why's of the presented eastern/western dichotomy, and became curious about the shared goals mentioned in this post.

 

Would you be willing to share a bit of what these goals are?

 

[ilumairen]

1 hour ago, ralis said:

If he would have stated that he tested highest among all Mo Pai students that would not be a problem. However, his deference to Western elitism is a problem. 

 

I don't think it's meant to be elitist, but honest (even if a bit protectionist) acknowledgement of what's available to them and the reason they still find it to be of value - even if it isn't the entirety of the system. 

 

To me it seems a habitual type response (and one certain practitioners are satisfied with) to habitual type negation (which certain non-practioners of this system are satisfied with). It seems an aspect of the merry go round we ride in this forum regarding this topic, and painting idealism (either Eastern or Western) into the picture is an attempt to understand the queasiness some experience as we keep spinning in circles - even if it may just keep the ride a spinnin'...

[sean]

OK, finally caught up with latest posts since the weekend. 📖

 

Y'all, I'm missing the intricate details of previous dramas around this, but as far as this recent flare-up, I'm mostly seeing this thing from @MildMouse23 perspective.

 

His stated preference is a complete moratorium on all Mo Pai conversations here. But somehow he's being accused of the opposite?

 

My spidey sense says this may be part of a recurring crash against a long history of ideological anti-secrecy here.

 

If true, I hope we can drop that. Secrets are fine and part of many traditions. Why not we simply let members contribute what they can and are comfortable sharing, and if someone says "I can't share more than this", we respect that and not press it?

 

If the problem truly is that Mo Pai members dependably engage in a spam-level pattern of posting grandiose assertions in multiple topics and respond "I can't share more" when pressed for any specifics — well, if someone can make a real case for this, then let's just actually ban Mo Pai conversation. It's what Mo Pai members state they want anyway, apparently.

 

Frankly though, I suspect this might be more on "us" then "them". We have an unfortunate reputation of being a fairly hostile and interrogative forum. Can we agree that this forum has not been the friendliest space to open up and discuss nuance, right? 😿

 

Look, I'm obviously game to collaborate with y'all on being downright cruel to alt-lite/right proto-fascists. LOL. 😆 But can we try harder to be kind and respectful to people that seem to be acting in relatively good faith?

 

Peace,

Sean

 

[Nungali]

Ahhhhh ,  doesnt matter .

 

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Nungali