Continuation

[Zork]

11 hours ago, sean said:

If true, I hope we can drop that. Secrets are fine and part of many traditions. Why not we simply let members contribute what they can and are comfortable sharing, and if someone says "I can't share more than this", we respect that and not press it?

Sean, the problem lies in the habit WMP have of stating something in an argument and when the time comes to back their argument up they bring up the "i can't share for whatever reasons" excuse. This isn't OK and it has happened with many WMP practitioners in the past like @Ilovecoffee. What is the point of mildmouse23 bringing up his system in this thread as a way of backing up his comments on video and then not providing any real proof?

Look at this simple question:

 

On 9/12/2019 at 2:48 AM, ralis said:

Which neigong system? Is that too much to ask? BTW, your narrative reminds me of someone that posted here a number of years ago and was either banned or left. 

 

I am really surprised that you see it that way. It isn't OK. Yes it is not a capital offense but their way is no way to contribute to the forums. Without proof i can claim practically anything. What proof do i have to back up the claim? Just my word?

If they can't answer the damn question for whatever reasons then they shouldn't be using the argument in the first place!

 

I mean there is no problem in using whatever secrecy they want but it is a problem if they invoke it during a conversation that they know before hand, that it will force them to reveal secrets, if they engage in it.

The solution is them not to engage threads that require proof of their practice. Not engage them and play martyr so as to stop simple but awkward questions that they can't answer for whatever reasons.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Zork

[sean]

I think I already talked about this insistence on proof.

 

Sincere question, has anyone formally proved literally anything on this forum ever?

 

From my perspective, it's all just storiiies in an informal language maaan. 😑

 

If this is super frustrating, what about this approach:

 

You: I think the apple is red.

Mo Pai Person: The apple is not red.

You: How do you know?

Mo Pai Person: I can't tell you.

You: LOL. OK. 🙄 ** clicks ignore user button**

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

@sean

 

I do not ask anybody to prove anything.

i do not ask anybody to share anything they do not care to share.

But if they reference (even obliquely) their secret thing that can´t be talked about

And say that they are victims because people like me on this forum are forever mistreating them

And if they do this over and over again over the course of many years

I reserve the right to voice my frustration.

[sean]

Just zoning out at work now, thinking about that Mo Pai crypto million to shut down these discussions. I'll deny it too.

 

 

 

[Taomeow]

I don't read mopai threads because I don't read any threads that get inserted into too many unrelated threads and hijack them and proceed thence as a mopai tug of war.  So I don't have the foggiest who's right and who's wrong there.  I'm not simple but I'm easy -- it's easy to get me to ignore any subject by bringing it up in response to every other subject under discussion and using any discussion in progress as a launching pad for one's own one trick pony.   

 

I don't care one way or the other if mopai discussions stay or go, provided they stay where they belong or go there.  A propos, not just mopai -- of course it's the internet and tangents happen and they should, we're not a single-minded task force on a mission here -- but anyone who consistently posts long rants from the bottom of their hearts while hijacking the bottom of someone else's heart toward the purpose winds up ignored by me.  I don't officially "put on ignore," I just learn to skip over the name if it has taught me that this person shows up in a thread exclusively toward a hostile or friendly (as the case may be) takeover of same.  I wonder how many do likewise.  

[dawei]

8 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

I don't read mopai threads because I don't read any threads that get inserted into too many unrelated threads and hijack them and proceed thence as a mopai tug of war.  So I don't have the foggiest who's right and who's wrong there.  I'm not simple but I'm easy -- it's easy to get me to ignore any subject by bringing it up in response to every other subject under discussion and using any discussion in progress as a launching pad for one's own one trick pony.   

 

I don't care one way or the other if mopai discussions stay or go, provided they stay where they belong or go there.  A propos, not just mopai -- of course it's the internet and tangents happen and they should, we're not a single-minded task force on a mission here -- but anyone who consistently posts long rants from the bottom of their hearts while hijacking the bottom of someone else's heart toward the purpose winds up ignored by me.  I don't officially "put on ignore," I just learn to skip over the name if it has taught me that this person shows up in a thread exclusively toward a hostile or friendly (as the case may be) takeover of same.  I wonder how many do likewise.  

 

I'm similar in the sense that I don't use the ignore button when I can just skip over something when I want.  

 

Here is my perspective on the MP history here.   It was amicable enough at the start with interesting conversations on the system, levels and western experiences of a few who studied directly under Chang.  Its an intriguing system with surprising results (Chang is at some level around 40 out of 72?).    The western students who could study directly under Chang seemed to have gotten as far as L3 (?), but seems not without some misunderstandings themselves despite the direct training.   And some of those teachings 'leaked' to others in the west (aka: secret teachings were taught to outsiders).   

 

Some 'outsiders' to the secret lineage system were then practicing those levels and discussing them here.  Along came Indonesian practitioners who joined the Bums to say that there is no such thing as "Western Mo Pai" (WMP) and it is an indigenous system that must be practiced directly with the lineage to claim to be Mo Pai.  They asked if folks here couldn't refrain from claiming Mo Pai practice when they were already not following the tradition of direct participation with the lineage system to get proper training.

 

This started about 8 years ago.  WMP mentioning practices they claimed they were not allowed to share (not sure why because they were not under any secret oath to the official lineage nor any official master of the practice)... and the Indonesian students would come back over the years when the WMP commented, and would ask them to stop claiming to be a part of the lineage system.   Over this course, several on the Bums felt there was a kind of spamming, elitist sense of WMP who claimed everyone else's practices were stupid (other colorful words used as well) and meaningless and only their's was a path of true demonstrated power... which over 8 years they would repeat and refuse any explanation, demonstration, or talk on their actual practice.  They would repeat the attacks, victim sense, and inability to get the forum to ban all talk on MP... which mostly they were doing with a kind of hijacking way of posting.

 

Here was the problem as I saw it, over the years.  I've never been inclined to ban a particular discussion of a system.  I just replace that system with another and would I ban it?  No.  Then I would not ban the first one.   Folks come here and ask a question like, "What is this Mo Pai system I hear about on the internet"... Some discussion may start with folks here but the WMP suddenly show up singularly or in numbers and start to dismember any discussion on it.  Its a weird vulture like stance that anyone is simply watching the board for a topic to then come swoop down and interject 8 years of the same repetitive, somewhat programmed, comments.

 

It did very much become an 'us' (WMP) vs the rest of the world; but also an 'us' (Bums) vs the WMP.   And it was dubbed, The MP Wars ... because of the similarities to the previous fights with the Buddhist elitist topics (Buddhist Wars).  Maybe the Bums like a good war.   There was the Lomax Wars too, let's not forget.   And also, Jeff Light Wars if we wanted to be fair about how the 'us' vs 'others' seems to recycle itself here.  

 

I would hope this previous part would put in perspective there is something much bigger than MP Wars but if one were to look at each War, they would see a vast different in the 'fight method'.   Those who had a very strong practice and ability to back it up were never on the attack (Lomax and Light), while those who couldn't were usually more aggressive (or passive aggressive, Buddhist and MP) in putting other systems down.  

 

It seems a funny choice to say: Should the topic be banned or the members be banned? 

 

I've followed the idea that any topic is allowed till it crosses the rules... very few topics have been banned but we're talking like serious and sick topics (child pornography or pizza-gate).   To ban discussion on an energetic system and put it in the category of serious and sick topics always seemed odd to me.    So I've let discussion occur and just view member participate as following the rules or not.

 

I don't have a horse in this.  If the rules changed on banning such topics, so be it.  I'll not lose any sleep, not claim any relief, not need to worry the outcome.   It would have no influence on me today or tomorrow.  But I do see there are some where there is great anticipation for some outcome that will rescue their own anxiety over the issue.   And I thought 'practice makes perfect'  

 

Peace.  

[Zork]

3 hours ago, sean said:

Sincere question, has anyone formally proved literally anything on this forum ever?

Theoretical situation:

I claim to have visited Mars on a secret mission from NASA.

You naturally ask for proof of my trip there.

I answer that the mission was top secret and i cannot divulge anything.

WMP in a nutshell.

3 hours ago, sean said:

You: I think the apple is red.

Mo Pai Person: The apple is not red.

You: How do you know?

Mo Pai Person: I can't tell you.

You: LOL. OK. 🙄 ** clicks ignore user button**

More like:

WMP: I have a modified version of my car engine that produces +40% horsepower

Me: Ok then, let's see the engine in a pic or at least your engineer plan on how to produce more horsepower by using the main engine.

WMP: It is an improved engine.

Me: Ok what makes it better?

WMP: It is made using the blueprints of an advanced model engine by a supercar company in the far east! There is a video showing how you can do it too!

Me: Ok, what modifications did you do to the engine? Did you use turbo? Did you tamper with the fuel intake?

WMP: It works like a charm on the supercar!

Me: I am not talking about the supercar, i am asking about the car engine you built. Do you at least have a video that shows the acceleration so as to figure it out in another way?

WMP: We can't show that because the forum is hostile and we will be ridiculed.

 

That is Western mo pai in a nutshell and ALL their discussions follow the above pattern. Substitute "Me" for all users that attempted to converse with WMP over the years.

I have pressed the block button by the way....

[sean]

48 minutes ago, dawei said:

Here is my perspective on the MP history here.

...

 

Very helpful, thanks! 🙏

 

Quote

It did very much become an 'us' (WMP) vs the rest of the world; but also an 'us' (Bums) vs the WMP.   And it was dubbed, The MP Wars ... because of the similarities to the previous fights with the Buddhist elitist topics (Buddhist Wars).  Maybe the Bums like a good war.   There was the Lomax Wars too, let's not forget.   And also, Jeff Light Wars if we wanted to be fair about how the 'us' vs 'others' seems to recycle itself here.  

 

Don't forget the Ron Jeremy War. And the recent Alt-lite/right War.

 

I wish I could say it's the internet, but humans seem to love war IRL too. 😕

 

Sean

 

[liminal_luke]

32 minutes ago, sean said:

 

 humans seem to love war

 

 

Yes we do, thanks.  Now that you´ve gone and kicked out the alt-right what do you think is left for conflict-hungry pseudo-leftists like myself to fight about?  Precious little.  I have to settle for Mo Pai crumbs, and now there´s talk about taking that away with a ban too?!  If this keeps up I´ll be forced to do something else with my time altogether, meditate or something.

Edited September 18, 2019 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yes we do, thanks.  Now that you´ve gone and kicked out the alt-right what do you think is left for conflict-hungry pseudo-leftists like myself to fight about?  Precious little.  I have to settle for Mo Pai crumbs, and now there´s talk to taking that away with a ban too?!  If this keeps up I´ll be forced to do something else with my time altogether, meditate or something.

 

That won't help.  Wars can't be meditated away.  May I suggest reading some Sun Tzu instead...  very helpful toward choosing your battles.  Once you see you have no dog in a fight, or too many dogs against yours, or one or two but vicious, rabid dogs you just want to avoid all contact with lest you contract the disease, or...  ...in other words, "choosing your battles" is an education worth getting.  Oh, and the main message of The Art of War is IMO this: 

 

don't go to war until you've already won.  

 

Generally speaking, I'm seeing fewer and fewer wars that can be won (too many losers produced by some hi tech loser-making machine -- of course the biggest losers are often labeled "winners" but a close look at what they've won and what they've lost may cause one to doubt that label.)  More and more situations where one's only chance to win is to desert.  Even if all you win by staying the hell out of it is your sanity.  

[MegaMind]

27 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

That won't help.  Wars can't be meditated away.  May I suggest reading some Sun Tzu instead...  very helpful toward choosing your battles.  Once you see you have no dog in a fight, or too many dogs against yours, or one or two but vicious, rabid dogs you just want to avoid all contact with lest you contract the disease, or...  ...in other words, "choosing your battles" is an education worth getting.  Oh, and the main message of The Art of War is IMO this: 

 

don't go to war until you've already won.  

 

Generally speaking, I'm seeing fewer and fewer wars that can be won (too many losers produced by some hi tech loser-making machine -- of course the biggest losers are often labeled "winners" but a close look at what they've won and what they've lost may cause one to doubt that label.)  More and more situations where one's only chance to win is to desert.  Even if all you win by staying the hell out of it is your sanity.  

 

I see what you did there.

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Theoretical situation:

I claim to have visited Mars on a secret mission from NASA.

You naturally ask for proof of my trip there.

I answer that the mission was top secret and i cannot divulge anything.

WMP in a nutshell.

More like:

WMP: I have a modified version of my car engine that produces +40% horsepower

Me: Ok then, let's see the engine in a pic or at least your engineer plan on how to produce more horsepower by using the main engine.

WMP: It is an improved engine.

Me: Ok what makes it better?

WMP: It is made using the blueprints of an advanced model engine by a supercar company in the far east! There is a video showing how you can do it too!

Me: Ok, what modifications did you do to the engine? Did you use turbo? Did you tamper with the fuel intake?

WMP: It works like a charm on the supercar!

Me: I am not talking about the supercar, i am asking about the car engine you built. Do you at least have a video that shows the acceleration so as to figure it out in another way?

WMP: We can't show that because the forum is hostile and we will be ridiculed.

 

That is Western mo pai in a nutshell and ALL their discussions follow the above pattern. Substitute "Me" for all users that attempted to converse with WMP over the years.

I have pressed the block button by the way....

 

Thats  ^   more like the responses that annoy me , and not just from WMP , but I have noticed a LOT of that from WMP discussions .

 

Its also from a whole range of people that talk BS and disseminate false info   ( and give but out false info to people who might be genuinely searching, seeking, trying to dispel confusion, etc . )  

 

IE;  they cant or won't engage in reasonable conversation of debate , they misquote, wrongly summarise, avoid detract and use all types of tactics, won't answer relevant questions .... 

 

But then again, this type of 'communication' seems ever so more popular in the greater community .

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

Maybe its time to really invoke Mercury   .... and hope for clearer, better and more intelligent communication ? 

 

 

 

 

[MegaMind]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

Theoretical situation:

I claim to have visited Mars on a secret mission from NASA.

You naturally ask for proof of my trip there.

I answer that the mission was top secret and i cannot divulge anything.

WMP in a nutshell.

More like:

WMP: I have a modified version of my car engine that produces +40% horsepower

Me: Ok then, let's see the engine in a pic or at least your engineer plan on how to produce more horsepower by using the main engine.

WMP: It is an improved engine.

Me: Ok what makes it better?

WMP: It is made using the blueprints of an advanced model engine by a supercar company in the far east! There is a video showing how you can do it too!

Me: Ok, what modifications did you do to the engine? Did you use turbo? Did you tamper with the fuel intake?

WMP: It works like a charm on the supercar!

Me: I am not talking about the supercar, i am asking about the car engine you built. Do you at least have a video that shows the acceleration so as to figure it out in another way?

WMP: We can't show that because the forum is hostile and we will be ridiculed.

 

That is Western mo pai in a nutshell and ALL their discussions follow the above pattern. Substitute "Me" for all users that attempted to converse with WMP over the years.

I have pressed the block button by the way....

 

 

Hi Zork that is an interesting way to look at it.

 

Our perspective is in the past when we tried to discuss these blueprints, it did nothing but cause endless 100+ page, 1000+ comment flame wars that spanned months, sometimes years.

 

We don't feel we can talk shop here without a war ensuing.

 

We however do look for like minded people, and bring them in to the shop to let drive it for themselves and verify the claims for themselves.

 

That is the best we can do.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Also there is no such thing as western mo pai, the practices are the same.

Edited September 18, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MegaMind]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Thats  ^   more like the responses that annoy me , and not just from WMP , but I have noticed a LOT of that from WMP discussions .

 

Its also from a whole range of people that talk BS and disseminate false info   ( and give but out false info to people who might be genuinely searching, seeking, trying to dispel confusion, etc . )  

 

IE;  they cant or won't engage in reasonable conversation of debate , they misquote, wrongly summarise, avoid detract and use all types of tactics, won't answer relevant questions .... 

 

But then again, this type of 'communication' seems ever so more popular in the greater community .

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Maybe its time to really invoke Mercury   .... and hope for clearer, better and more intelligent communication ? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as false info goes, our info comes straight from the horses mouth.

 

That is as good as we can do. 

[MegaMind]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yes we do, thanks.  Now that you´ve gone and kicked out the alt-right what do you think is left for conflict-hungry pseudo-leftists like myself to fight about?  Precious little.  I have to settle for Mo Pai crumbs, and now there´s talk about taking that away with a ban too?!  If this keeps up I´ll be forced to do something else with my time altogether, meditate or something.

 

I realize this was made as a joke, but I genuinely believe a lot of people here intentionally fan the flames of  anti-mo-pai side of the debate because they enjoy the conflict, drama, and chaos it causes.

Edited September 18, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MegaMind]

5 hours ago, Zork said:

Sean, the problem lies in the habit WMP have of stating something in an argument and when the time comes to back their argument up they bring up the "i can't share for whatever reasons" excuse. This isn't OK and it has happened with many WMP practitioners in the past like @Ilovecoffee. What is the point of mildmouse23 bringing up his system in this thread as a way of backing up his comments on video and then not providing any real proof?

Look at this simple question:

 

 

I am really surprised that you see it that way. It isn't OK. Yes it is not a capital offense but their way is no way to contribute to the forums. Without proof i can claim practically anything. What proof do i have to back up the claim? Just my word?

If they can't answer the damn question for whatever reasons then they shouldn't be using the argument in the first place!

 

I mean there is no problem in using whatever secrecy they want but it is a problem if they invoke it during a conversation that they know before hand, that it will force them to reveal secrets, if they engage in it.

The solution is them not to engage threads that require proof of their practice. Not engage them and play martyr so as to stop simple but awkward questions that they can't answer for whatever reasons.

 

No such thing WMP, and we answer all we can without causing more conflict and drama.

 

[Nungali]

44 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yes we do, thanks.  Now that you´ve gone and kicked out the alt-right what do you think is left for conflict-hungry pseudo-leftists like myself to fight about?  Precious little.  I have to settle for Mo Pai crumbs, and now there´s talk about taking that away with a ban too?!  If this keeps up I´ll be forced to do something else with my time altogether, meditate or something.

 

Nooooo ! 

 

Dont do anything rash !   .....   You still have me  ;

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

9 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

As far as false info goes, our info comes straight from the horses mouth.

 

That is as good as we can do. 

 

..... and all the other  lame conversation / debate  ' tricks '  ? 

 

 

 ( I left out another  'tactic'  above   ;   just addressing  one item out of numerous on a list  .   )

 

[Nungali]

12 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

I realize this was made as a joke, but I genuinely believe a lot of people here intentionally fan the anti-mo-pai side of the debate because they enjoy the it causes.

 

OR

 

So many of you guys  ( and I wasnt including you in this previously, but due to your now continual use of 'us ' and 'we' you are certainly now branded as part of that  collective  )  have carried on -  same old / so lame / see above -  that anyone else that comes along as a 'we' / part of that collective is seen as just as invalid due to all the other parts and BS of your 'we' that came before .

 

Sure people enjoy conflict, drama, and chaos   - takes two  of course , but one wonders  why so much of that enjoyment  is focused in the direction it is .   Must be all our fault eh, and  WMP is totally innocent   .

 

 

[MegaMind]

Just now, Nungali said:

 

OR

 

So many of you guys  ( and I wasnt including you in this previously, but due to your now continual use of 'us ' and 'we' you are certainly now branded as part of that  collective  )  have carried on -  same old / so lame / see above -  that anyone else that comes along as a 'we' / part of that collective is seen as just as invalid due to all the other parts and BS of your 'we' that came before .

 

Sure people enjoy conflict, drama, and chaos   - takes two  of course , but one wonders  why so much of that enjoyment  is focused in the direction it is .   Must be all our fault eh, and  WMP is totally innocent   .

 

 

 

 

I don't think any members of our group enjoy being here one bit, and we certainly have better things to do with our time.

 

Our reason for being here is to defend ourselves, our practice,  and our teachers,  and to look for like minded individuals who feel this path is for them.

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

I don't think any members of our group enjoy being here one bit, and we certainly have better things to do with our time.

 

Our reason for being here is to defend ourselves, our practice,  and our teachers,  and to look for like minded individuals who feel this path is for them.

 

That does not detract from what I said ;   "  they cant or won't engage in reasonable conversation of debate , they misquote, wrongly summarise, avoid detract and use all types of tactics, won't answer relevant questions "

 

My comment about 'enjoyment' was from the TBs side , if you note its context and what I was responding to ( you comment about Luke's comment . )

 

If you really want to defend yourselves, then get your mates to converse and debate reasonably  and intelligently , and not use lame and transparent 'tactics' .

 

That is  IF they can tell the difference .    (I believe its actually so ingrained in some people they dont even know they doing it ... or worse, it has become a 'valid' form of 'communication' ) .

[Taomeow]

55 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

I see what you did there.

 

Me too, but I noticed too late that I sort of responded to the opposite of what liminal luke was talking about -- more to a thought in my head than to his conclusion that we might run out of wars.  Decided to leave my response intact though, for its general wisdom.    

[thelerner]

There's also the chance that all these long circuitous threads are an elaborate drinking game. 

Every new post they take a sip and every page they have to down a whole shot. 

 

 

hell i might start playing too. 

 

 

 

 

[MegaMind]

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

they cant or won't engage in reasonable conversation of debate , they misquote, wrongly summarise, avoid detract and use all types of tactics...

 

We do our best to present our case logically and reasonably, that is all.

 

I certainly agree there is a lot of the things you list occurring, but not so much from our group.

 

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

won't answer relevant questions

 

We answer everything we can without dousing the fire with gasoline.

Edited September 19, 2019 by MildMouse23

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

We do our best to present our case logically and reasonably, that is all.

 

 

No, I am saying , in the past you did a really bad job of that, it was illogical and unreasonable   ... that is , you didnt do your best ... or if that was your best, its 'worthy of ridicule' .

 

Clear yet ?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

I certainly agree there is a lot of the things you list occurring, but not so much from our group.

 

Again, I am  talking about the past history here and how it has influenced any further occurrence, and apparently THAT cant even be said without simila tactics being used  ... right now . 

 

 

2 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

We answer everything we can without dousing the fire with gasoline.

 

 

'We'  do do 'we' ?   Does that apply retrospectively, does this 'we' of yours cover the past WMP posters here   ( and their antics)  ?   

 

 To date, several people have claimed to represent this 'we'  , some seem copies of each other   and some seem entirely different , so I am wondering who qualifies this 'we' of 'appointed representatives' . 

 

I mean .... I could just start putting  'my we'  on it