Continuation

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

We want to see scientists and medical doctors present, in a controlled location with best efforts made to rule out fraud on video.

 

None of that happened here.

 

The only other art we are aware of that meets that criteria is Tummo.

 

Pffft   ... science and medical doctors present !   What would they know about such things ?

 

No ,  you need these guys present  ;

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

10 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

We want to see scientists and medical doctors present, in a controlled location with best efforts made to rule out fraud on video.

 

None of that happened here.

 

The only other art we are aware of that meets that criteria is Tummo.

 

 

'Rule out fraud on video '

 

 

 

[MegaMind]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

 

Pffft   ... science and medical doctors present !   What would they know about such things ?

 

No ,  you need these guys present  ;

 

 

 

 

 

If you say so.

[MegaMind]

Just now, Nungali said:

 

 

'Rule out fraud on video '

 

 

 

 

A team of scientists and medical doctors can take a subject to a controlled location, strip and search them with a metal detector for devices, and make a best case effort to rule out fraud, and the event can be recorded on video.

 

This certainly is leagues above accepting things as true on someone elses personal testimony, or because a book says so, or because we believe it on faith.

 

I contend that while this is not perfect, it certainly is the best we can do as limited and rational beings.

[Nungali]

Glad you finally concede my point  that its all stage magic .

 

And that no props should be needed except the hand of the person ... no paper , no alfoil  and no strained facial expressions or shaking hands .

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

A team of scientists and medical doctors can take a subject to a controlled location, strip and search them with a metal detector for devices, and make a best case effort to rule out fraud, and the event can be recorded on video.

 

This certainly is leagues above accepting things as true on someone elses personal testimony, or because a book says so, or because we believe it on faith.

 

I contend that while this is not perfect, it certainly is the best we can do as limited and rational beings.

 

 

No it isnt . and if you think it is  you are NOT being rational at all .

 

The best anyone can do is simply feel it for yourselves  ... and NOT waste time making silly magic videos  with alleged testing done in it .

[MegaMind]

On 9/25/2019 at 5:13 PM, Nungali said:

 

 

No it isnt . and if you think it is  you are NOT being rational at all .

 

The best anyone can do is simply feel it for yourselves  ... and NOT waste time making silly magic videos  with alleged testing done in it .

 

 

Unfortunately people believe that copper and magnetic items can help them with (arthritis) pain, in reality they are no more effective than placebo.

 

John invited a group of scientists and medical doctors to his home.

 

He provided a demonstration inside his home.

 

He provided another demonstration outside his home.

 

Then the scientists and medical doctors took him to a controlled location they chose, to ensure no devices on his property were causing the effects they were seeing.

 

He was stripped to his shirt and underwear and checked for metal with a metal detector.

 

The scientists and medical doctors did make a best case effort to rule out fraud, and it was all recorded on video so we don't have take their personal testimony for it, we can objectively watch what occurred.

 

Certainly there may have been some non-metallic device inside his body causing the effects they saw.

 

This however I contend this is the best we as limited and rational beings can do.

 

The only other art we are aware of with scientists and doctors recording such findings on video is for Tummo.

 

Edit: added arthritis to clarify.

Edited September 27, 2019 by MildMouse23

[Taomeow]

5 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

 

Unfortunately people believe that copper and magnetic items can help them with pain, in reality they are no more effective than placebo.

 

 

I haven't read the previous part of the discussion but I beg to differ on this one.  I used to have Einstein's job once, at a patent office, and it was largely a sinecura, so I had plenty of time to just read all kinds of obscure patents for fun.  So did my colleagues, and we would share our precious finds on a daily basis.  And that's how we all wound up with polished copper coins stuck to our foreheads, and even a couple of cases of applying magnets (just don't ask me for the technicalities) to a couple of unwanted pregnancies (one happened to a co-worker and another,  to a co-worker's wife).  I've seen hundreds of patents dedicated to various medical uses of copper and magnets.  But since they are not drugs, cost pennies, and can't be protected from homemade imitations, of course there was never any reason not to bury all that research.  Long ago, far away...   

[MegaMind]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I haven't read the previous part of the discussion but I beg to differ on this one.  I used to have Einstein's job once, at a patent office, and it was largely a sinecura, so I had plenty of time to just read all kinds of obscure patents for fun.  So did my colleagues, and we would share our precious finds on a daily basis.  And that's how we all wound up with polished copper coins stuck to our foreheads, and even a couple of cases of applying magnets (just don't ask me for the technicalities) to a couple of unwanted pregnancies (one happened to a co-worker and another,  to a co-worker's wife).  I've seen hundreds of patents dedicated to various medical uses of copper and magnets.  But since they are not drugs, cost pennies, and can't be protected from homemade imitations, of course there was never any reason not to bury all that research.  Long ago, far away...   

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19942103

 

Therapeutic effects of magnetic and copper bracelets in osteoarthritis: a randomised placebo-controlled crossover trial.

CONCLUSIONS:
Our results indicate that magnetic and copper bracelets are generally ineffective for managing pain, stiffness and physical function in osteoarthritis. Reported therapeutic benefits are most likely attributable to non-specific placebo effects. However such devices have no major adverse effects and may provide hope.

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24066023

 

Copper bracelets and magnetic wrist straps for rheumatoid arthritis--analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects: a randomised double-blind placebo controlled crossover trial.

 

CONCLUSIONS:
Wearing a magnetic wrist strap or a copper bracelet did not appear to have any meaningful therapeutic effect, beyond that of a placebo, for alleviating symptoms and combating disease activity in rheumatoid arthritis.

[MegaMind]

16 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

There has been a lot of negativity about Mo Pai on the forum over the years, and it`s understandable that members of MildMouse`s group might feel a need to defend their practice.  Still, coming to the discussion with the sole intention to do "damage control" creates a dynamic that (unwittingly?) exacerbates the problem rather than helps.

 

Some questions I am curious about...

 

Could you tell us a little bit about the nature of the practice itself? 

 

What is the end goal of the practice?

 

What experiences have group members had and how has the practice impacted their lives for the better? 

 

"Could you tell us a little bit about the nature of the practice itself? "

 

What is it you specifically want to know here?

 

 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19942103

 

Therapeutic effects of magnetic and copper bracelets in osteoarthritis: a randomised placebo-controlled crossover trial.

CONCLUSIONS:
Our results indicate that magnetic and copper bracelets are generally ineffective for managing pain, stiffness and physical function in osteoarthritis. Reported therapeutic benefits are most likely attributable to non-specific placebo effects. However such devices have no major adverse effects and may provide hope.

 

 

 

 

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24066023

 

Copper bracelets and magnetic wrist straps for rheumatoid arthritis--analgesic and anti-inflammatory effects: a randomised double-blind placebo controlled crossover trial.

 

CONCLUSIONS:
Wearing a magnetic wrist strap or a copper bracelet did not appear to have any meaningful therapeutic effect, beyond that of a placebo, for alleviating symptoms and combating disease activity in rheumatoid arthritis.

 

 

Did I ever say anything about osteoarthritis?  No.  We have a glorious epidemic of opioid addiction to take care of that, don't we?  Wouldn't want to mess with the profits, would we?  

 

Did I ever say anything about a panacea?  No.  Just because something is not a panacea doesn't necessarily leave us with the only alternative -- "placebo."

 

Incidentally, I've also come to the conclusion, in a personal hands-on experiment, that those bracelets are useless -- I've no arthritis to test them on but it pretty much did nothing for anything when I tried, I suspect the reason is that the contact surface is way too small.  There was a Chinese guy in my taiji class a while ago who wore a wide, Japanese made, and very expensive one, he asserted that his arm didn't work without it after a bad accident, and was completely normal with it.  Go figure.  It may have been "placebo" but he could kick anyone's ass wearing that bracelet, and no one's without it.  But that of course is anecdotal, no opioid manufacturer would ever get interested in something this disreputable.  Some of the patents I was talking about, however, had folks  sleep over copper plates covering the whole lower back, e.g.., or another large surface.  Copper is a notorious conductor of electricity (look inside one of the wires your computer is connected to) and we possess The Body Electric (need references or do you believe me?  If you don't, there's a book under that name.  A bioelectricity 101 course.  And then a dozen more worth one's while.)  There's a lot of interesting stuff that can happen.

 

Magnets, of course, are also interesting in that they have to have adequate surface area contact -- and be strong enough -- and not be viewed as a panacea of course, but they do increase the blood flow to the area, did you ever think of asking me what happened in those unwanted pregnancy cases I mentioned?.. 

 

Don't cite entrenched self-serving orthodoxy's "studies," I've read them all.  Get curious. Ask me about that polished penny that sticks to the forehead by itself if you have a headache -- tightly, reliably, not in your imagination, in the real material world -- and then falls off by itself when the headache is gone, and you can't get it to stick again.  Placebo can't do that, placebo doesn't stick.  Polished pure copper does.  To a problem area.  It's not placebo.  It's magic.  Try it.  (If you're using an American penny, make sure it's from before 1982, the last year it had enough copper for any such effects -- 95%). 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Taomeow

[Zork]

Yeah hearing MP wannabies argue about placebo and anecdotal evidence is a joke seriously.

Where are the double blind statistical studies on Chang? Nowhere you say? Then mopai is just placebo after all! All that according to the mopai wannabies faulty logic.

 

What is funny: Chang displays bioelectrical abilities and copper is one of the best conduits of electricity. Arguing that it has no effect on the bioelectric body has no basis.

There is a connection but it needs research to figure out.

 

Plus you shouldn't trust researchers at their word. Recently they admitted that there was a whole coverup of studies blaming sugar for obesity in the '70s which they changed to fat. What followed were low fat foods and an obesity epidemic like never before in history.

Sugar producers bribed the researchers. So don't take every research at face value if there is a lot of money involved.

In this case if copper works, we are talking about millions of painkillers per day just in the US. It could even be sth like 2 million $ lost per day by the pharmaceutical companies.

 

Trust science but verify whenever you can.

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by Zork

[liminal_luke]

6 hours ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

"Could you tell us a little bit about the nature of the practice itself? "

 

What is it you specifically want to know here?

 

 

 

Pretty much anything would be good.  Does it involve doing a movement form or is it a kind of sitting meditation?  Does it involve a special kind of breathing, visualization?  What kind of time commitment is involved to do the practice?  Suppose someone knows nothing -- like me -- and you wanted to give them a general overview so that they could decide whether the practice was for them.  What would you say about it?

Edited September 26, 2019 by liminal_luke

[MegaMind]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Pretty much anything would be good.  Does it involve doing a movement form or is it a kind of sitting meditation?  Does it involve a special kind of breathing, visualization?  What kind of time commitment is involved to do the practice?  Suppose someone knows nothing -- like me -- and you wanted to give them a general overview so that they could decide whether the practice was for them.  What would you say about it?

 

Unfortunately that won't be something we could go into in public.

[Zork]

11 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Unfortunately that won't be something we could go into in public.

If you don't feel like sharing knowledge about your practice then what are you doing in a public forum?

You haven't contributed  to a single discussion! All you do is preach under the mantle of a supposedly oppressed group.

 

All this ruckus about mopai was directly instigated by you!

Nobody has mentioned mopai the last six months because seriously the horse has been beaten to death (even maybe to  undeath) so many times. There is nothing to say anymore!

 

You steered this conversation to mopai to play victim. You are not the victim! You are the perpetrator!

Edited September 26, 2019 by Zork

[Earl Grey]

8 minutes ago, Zork said:

 

You steered this conversation to mopai to play victim. You are not the victim! You are the perpetrator!

 

A terrible liar, too.

[Zork]

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

A terrible liar, too.

The lying is part of the problem. He wants to steer the FAQ too to preach his ideas unopposed on a public forum. Isn't it obvious that we don't all share the same opinion?

So maybe some people believe that Jim died from incorrect practice. Why do you WMP guys care about what others believe? It is their loss for discarding a true practice.

Why do you care if your system is qigong or neigong? Is there some sort of stigma involved with qigong that we should know about?

[MegaMind]

1 minute ago, Zork said:

The lying is part of the problem. He wantsto steer the FAQ too to preach his ideas unopposed on a public forum. Isn't it obvious that we don't all share the same opinion?

So maybe some people believe that Jim died from incorrect practice. Why do you WMP guys care about what others believe? It is their loss for discarding a true practice.

Why do you care if your system is qigong or neigong? Is there some sort of stigma involved with qigong that we should know about?

 

As a reminder our entire group is against a FAQ.

 

Sean asked for one and we are doing our best to comply with his wishes.

[Zork]

Just now, MildMouse23 said:

 

As a reminder our entire group is against a FAQ.

 

Sean asked for one and we are doing our best to comply with his wishes.

No! You are actively trying to sabotage it! You aren't even trying to make one up. You just want to present us with your version of a FAQ with tottaly useless answers and then say: "this is the FAQ you asked for. See? It doesn't work! How about that moratorium again?!"

[MegaMind]

Just now, Zork said:

No! You are actively trying to sabotage it! You aren't even trying to make one up. You just want to present us with your version of a FAQ with tottaly useless answers and then say: "this is the FAQ you asked for. See? It doesn't work! How about that moratorium again?!"

 

If you say so.

[Zork]

5 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

If you say so.

(Victim mode on!)

[ralis]

Just another day with evasive MoPai trolling.

[Earl Grey]

Just now, Zork said:

(Victim mode on!)

 

It’s been on already.... Since the original thread derailment that led to the creation of this thread and prevalent in page one already. Perhaps more like the victimhood dial has gone to levels over nine thousand rather than off to on.

 

I am sick of his shit.

[MegaMind]

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

 

It’s been on already.... Since the original thread derailment that led to the creation of this thread and prevalent in page one already. Perhaps more like the victimhood dial has gone to levels over nine thousand rather than off to on.

 

I am sick of his shit.

 

The feeling is mutual.

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

It’s been on already.... Since the original thread derailment that led to the creation of this thread and prevalent in page one already. Perhaps more like the victimhood dial has gone to levels over nine thousand rather than off to on.

 

I am sick of his shit.

MoPai true believers protecting their cult of secrets.