Continuation

[Zork]

52 minutes ago, sean said:

What is the "explain it like I'm 5" contention in this topic? I'm confused as to what's causing the escalation. Is this 7 pages about the pros/cons of learning from self-study of multimedia materials vs. in person? Is it about secrecy in traditions being inherently wrong somehow? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Sean

 

It started as a personal attack on Earl Grey. The title was literally "For Earl Grey".

look for youself

What MildMouse23 was debating was that there is no need for transmission in Internal arts and video can be just as good as the real thing.

He viewed the insistence on transmission as a subvert attack on his system and that is why he started this thread.

Earl Grey debated about video being useful as a learning medium but with serious limitations in many cases among which is the learning of other languages especially the ones that require cultural immersion.

Mildmouse23 did not accept it and Earl Grey at some point asked him how many languages he has learned through video and which cultures he has visited to test his lingual ability and to immerse. He never responded (this started the trend in the thread).

 

At some point Liminal_luke talked about the gorilla in the room and mentioned mo pai and then all hell broke loose as usual.

Next mildmouse stopped answering any questions and deflected any comments by talking nonsense. Then i mentioned the subreddit thread that they use for recruiting and he claimed that they don't do qigong but neigong. All i asked then is which of the 3 exercises /levels that they have available is neigong in nature?. He never responded because obviously there is no neikung involved at what they practice. And then he took all this as an attack on his system.

We aren't hostile to his qigong system but the general behavior of stating stuff not based on reality or argumentation and not backing the statements with any proof. The claim that they do neikung is absurd and it needs to be proven as per simple burden of proof rules.

There was no proof given, ergo they do qigong. Which is really no problem. Their problem is for whatever reason they don't want to be associated with qigong.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Zork

[ilumairen]

 

Quote

It is just like politics,  mention you are an atheist socialist to a bunch of southern baptist ultra right wing neoconservatives and see what happens as a result.

 

As a mildly humorous aside, as a relocated Wisconsonite living in the Charleston South Carolina area, I made the mistake of wishing people fitting the description you made above a Happy Halloween. A kindly gentlemen pulled me aside and suggested I probably didn't want to repeat what I'd just said, but it was to late, and word of my celebration of "Satan's Holiday" spread quickly...

 

Quote

The environment here is not one where we can openly talk about our life and our practice, without having it used as ammunition to attack us with later.

 

Has someone from your group actually openly talked about their life and practice here? I don't recall seeing it.

 

Edit to add: I started looking through old mo pai threads. This was the first I found/read through; it seems respectful and informative, although well before my arrival here. I'm presently wondering what changed? When did the change occur, and why?

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by ilumairen

[sean]

Despite the original title, was the OP a personal attack? It seems sincere to me but maybe I'm missing subtext? @Earl Grey did you feel attacked?

 

Is it possible that members involved with Mo Pai simultaneously:

1. Are not at liberty to discuss details of the practice
2. Want to prevent egregious misunderstandings

And that this explains their behavior and is not actually a big deal?

 

Sean

 

[Zork]

14 minutes ago, sean said:

Despite the original title, was the OP a personal attack? It seems sincere to me but maybe I'm missing subtext? @Earl Grey did you feel attacked?

 

Is it possible that members involved with Mo Pai simultaneously:

1. Are not at liberty to discuss details of the practice
2. Want to prevent egregious misunderstandings

And that this explains their behavior and is not actually a big deal?

 

Sean

 

The problem with that approach is that it allows a select group of users of the forum to ignore basic requirements of argumentation and dialogue which is to provide proof for statements made. Argumentation logic is a foundation to dialogue and to an extent this forum. If let's say western mo pai choose not to follow them for whatever reason then what is the point of us following it?

Edited September 13, 2019 by Zork

[ilumairen]

11 minutes ago, Zork said:

The problem with that approach is that it allows a select group of users of the forum to ignore basic requirements of argumentation and dialogue which is to provide proof for statements made. Argumentation logic is a foundation to dialogue and to an extent this forum. If let's say western mo pai choose not to follow them for whatever reason then what is the point of us following it?

 

Would this be in keeping with the pillar of egalitarianism of this site (as it seems a certain education and understanding is required to fit with your ideal)?

 

Curiosity, not churlishness, as I've often been curious (and oddly cautious) about the egalitarian policy...

 

Shared for reference:

 

 

[sean]

But providing proof for statements isn't at all a requirement for participation here? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Sincerely, what's the problem with us simply allowing members to contribute what they can without breaking vows, even if we find their ratio of assertion to proof annoying?

 

Sean

 

[MegaMind]

 

1 hour ago, sean said:

What is the "explain it like I'm 5" contention in this topic? I'm confused as to what's causing the escalation. Is this 7 pages about the pros/cons of learning from self-study of multimedia materials vs. in person? Is it about secrecy in traditions being inherently wrong somehow? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Sean

 

 

Hi Sean, I will do my best to put forth a an ELI5 in just a second.

 

[liminal_luke]

26 minutes ago, sean said:

 

Is it possible that members involved with Mo Pai simultaneously:

1. Are not at liberty to discuss details of the practice
2. Want to prevent egregious misunderstandings

And that this explains their behavior and is not actually a big deal?

 

Sean

 

 

It´s not a big deal to have secret practices that can´t be discussed but in this case it´s better not to discuss them.  

[MegaMind]

17 hours ago, ralis said:

Sounds like an ultra secret exclusive club! Can’t answer because you can’t? Sworn to absolute secrecy? Must be a large price tag to join your little cult! 

 

We would love to share openly, however anytime we share even the slightest things it is used as ammunition to attack us with.

 

We keep to our private forum to prevent such drama, though if it were possible to share here we would.

 

Also we are an ANTI-CULT. 

 

No one accepts anything on personal testimony, or because a book says so.

 

No one accepts anything as true on faith.

 

We believe in basing our beliefs on our own first hand observations, and what we consider the best evidence available to us .

 

We are a group of rational, reasonable free thinkers.

 

There is no kool-aid to drink.

 

We don't worship any gods, demons, spirits, humans or demi-humans.

 

We don't live in a commune.

 

No one is charged any money, ever.

 

There is no one leader to the group, just like minded individuals.

 

I hope that addresses your concerns.

Edited September 14, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MegaMind]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

It´s not a big deal to have secret practices that can´t be discussed but in this case it´s better not to discuss them.  

 

We don't discuss things to prevent drama here.

[Zork]

18 minutes ago, sean said:

But providing proof for statements isn't at all a requirement for participation here? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No but in that case one is talking about an opinion not a fact. Here opinions of mildmouse were presented in an absolute manner as facts without being so. WMP being neikung is his opinion. Video being as reliable as real teachers is an opinion. If he provides no facts that is the extent of the strength of his argument. He can't ask from anyone to ascribe to that opinion obviously.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Zork

[Zork]

10 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

It´s not a big deal to have secret practices that can´t be discussed but in this case it´s better not to discuss them.  

Exactly. If you can't share it there is no point in even mentioning it.

[MegaMind]

3 hours ago, Zork said:

No but in that case one is talking about an opinion not a fact. Here opinions of mildmouse were presented in an absolute manner as facts without being so. WMP being neikung is his opinion. If he provides no facts that is the extent of the strength of his argument. He can't ask from anyone to ascribe to that opinion obviously.

 

3 hours ago, Zork said:

Exactly. If you can't share it there is no point in even mentioning it.

 

There is no such thing as WMP, only MP.

 

MP is a system of neikung.

 

In the past whenever we do share  it  has resulted in flame wars which go for 100+ pages and last for months if not years.

 

Later anything and everything said is dredged up to use as ammunition to attack us with in later threads.

 

Unless someone in our group wins the lottery or invests in the next big crypto currency and can buy this forum from Sean, we can't stop the trolling so it's better just remain as quiet as is possible.

Edited September 14, 2019 by MildMouse23

[sean]

5 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It´s not a big deal to have secret practices that can´t be discussed but in this case it´s better not to discuss them.  

 

3 minutes ago, Zork said:

No but in that case one is talking about an opinion not a fact. Here opinions of mildmouse were presented in an absolute manner as facts without being so. WMP being neikung is his opinion. If he provides no facts that is the extent of the strength of his argument. He can't ask from anyone to ascribe to that opinion obviously.

 

So is the root of the irritation maybe the sense that Mo Pai members are somehow passive-aggressively lobbing strong and/or controversial assertions but then refusing to engage in further conversation?

 

Sean

 

[MegaMind]

51 minutes ago, sean said:

Despite the original title, was the OP a personal attack? It seems sincere to me but maybe I'm missing subtext? @Earl Grey did you feel attacked?

 

Is it possible that members involved with Mo Pai simultaneously:

1. Are not at liberty to discuss details of the practice
2. Want to prevent egregious misunderstandings

And that this explains their behavior and is not actually a big deal?

 

Sean

 

 

 

Hi Sean,

 

I've looked back at every post I've made and I don't see any reason whatsoever for Earl to be upset. 

 

I sincerely have no clue what is causing him to be so angry, other than he lost an argument.

[MegaMind]

3 hours ago, sean said:

 

 

So is the root of the irritation maybe the sense that Mo Pai members are somehow passive-aggressively lobbing strong and/or controversial assertions but then refusing to engage in further conversation?

 

Sean

 

 

Hi Sean,

 

Sometimes it's best not to respond to specific points rather than be stuck in a 100 page flamewar.

Edited September 14, 2019 by MildMouse23

[MegaMind]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

It started as a personal attack on Earl Grey. The title was literally "For Earl Grey".

look for youself

What MildMouse23 was debating was that there is no need for transmission in Internal arts and video can be just as good as the real thing.

He viewed the insistence on transmission as a subvert attack on his system and that is why he started this thread.

Earl Grey debated about video being useful as a learning medium but with serious limitations in many cases among which is the learning of other languages especially the ones that require cultural immersion.

Mildmouse23 did not accept it and Earl Grey at some point asked him how many languages he has learned through video and which cultures he has visited to test his lingual ability and to immerse. He never responded (this started the trend in the thread).

 

At some point Liminal_luke talked about the gorilla in the room and mentioned mo pai and then all hell broke loose as usual.

Next mildmouse stopped answering any questions and deflected any comments by talking nonsense. Then i mentioned the subreddit thread that they use for recruiting and he claimed that they don't do qigong but neigong. All i asked then is which of the 3 exercises /levels that they have available is neigong in nature?. He never responded because obviously there is no neikung involved at what they practice. And then he took all this as an attack on his system.

We aren't hostile to his qigong system but the general behavior of stating stuff not based on reality or argumentation and not backing the statements with any proof. The claim that they do neikung is absurd and it needs to be proven as per simple burden of proof rules.

There was no proof given, ergo they do qigong. Which is really no problem. Their problem is for whatever reason they don't want to be associated with qigong.

 

 

 

Hi Zork,

 

I do not have a PPD, otherwise I would have posted in there. 

 

My hope was that Earl and I could hash this out without continuing to derail TaoMeow''s thread located here:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49729-and-thats-why-i-shun-new-and-improved-interpretations-and-combining-practices-and-a-creative-approach-to-any-original-sources/

 

In the past a common attack on our practice is that we only learn from books, or videos and have no real teachers.

 

Many in our group were students of the top western student, so that is not true but it still has a been a point of attack in the past.

 

I will have to disagree on the not being hostile bit.

 

Also our system is a system of neigong, not qigong.

Edited September 13, 2019 by MildMouse23

[Zork]

12 minutes ago, sean said:

 

 

So is the root of the irritation maybe the sense that Mo Pai members are somehow passive-aggressively lobbing strong and/or controversial assertions but then refusing to engage in further conversation?

 

Sean

 

Spot on!

That is exactly what is happening plus they, for whatever reason, try to play victims.

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, sean said:

 

 

So is the root of the irritation maybe the sense that Mo Pai members are somehow passive-aggressively lobbing strong and/or controversial assertions but then refusing to engage in further conversation?

 

Sean

 

 

I´m not so irritated really, just passing time posting at a cafe.  Still, it´s strange to me that there´s so much talk about Mo Pai -- all of it at the instigation of supposed group members -- and then when someone naturally asks an innocent question like "tell me about your practice"  nothing is forthcoming.  All we get is endless talk about how it can´t be talked about.

 

There´s no substantive talk about Mo Pai at all, only talk about how the group is victimized here.

 

I don´t have a problem with people having secret practices.  Many people here have secret practices, I´m sure.  But it´s disingenuous to say you don´t want drama while doing nothing but stirring up drama.  Obviously the drama is wanted or there wouldn´t be any.  Most people with secret practices don´t experience drama because they don´t constantly advertise their secret practices.  

 

Problem child: I´ve got a shiny new toy car but I won´t show it to you.

 

Curious child: Is it a red car?

 

Problem child: I can´t talk about my car because it´s not safe.

 

Curious child: OK, what do you think they´re serving for lunch today at the cafeteria.

 

Problem child: Who cares.  I´ve got a shiny new toy car but I won´t show it to you.

[MegaMind]

1 hour ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

As a mildly humorous aside, as a relocated Wisconsonite living in the Charleston South Carolina area, I made the mistake of wishing people fitting the description you made above a Happy Halloween. A kindly gentlemen pulled me aside and suggested I probably didn't want to repeat what I'd just said, but it was to late, and word of my celebration of "Satan's Holiday" spread quickly...

 

 

Has someone from your group actually openly talked about their life and practice here? I don't recall seeing it.

 

Edit to add: I started looking through old mo pai threads. This was the first I found/read through; it seems respectful and informative, although well before my arrival here. I'm presently wondering what changed? When did the change occur, and why?

 

 

 

In the past people mentioned using a grounding wire, and that became a mantra of we stick wires up our butts.

 

In the past someone mentioned our teacher passed away with cancer with it's genome linked to agent orange exposure, and poof suddenly he practiced incorrectly and caused his own cancer and deserved it HAHAHAHAH!

 

In the past one member mentioned they personally used melatonin, and chamomile tea to aid in meditation and poof we have to drug ourselves or we give instructions to use drugs for meditation.

 

These are just a few examples but I could fill up pages with more.

 

It is best not to attempt to share anything in such an environment it is like throwing gasoline on a fire we are trying to put out.

[MegaMind]

12 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I´m not so irritated really, just passing time posting at a cafe.  Still, it´s strange to me that there´s so much talk about Mo Pai -- all of it at the instigation of supposed group members -- and then when someone naturally asks an innocent question like "tell me about your practice"  nothing is forthcoming.  All we get is endless talk about how it can´t be talked about.

 

There´s no substantive talk about Mo Pai at all, only talk about how the group is victimized here.

 

I don´t have a problem with people having secret practices.  Many people here have secret practices, I´m sure.  But it´s disingenuous to say you don´t want drama while doing nothing but stirring up drama.  Obviously the drama is wanted or there wouldn´t be any.  Most people with secret practices don´t experience drama because they don´t constantly advertise their secret practices.  

 

Problem child: I´ve got a shiny new toy car but I won´t show it to you.

 

Curious child: Is it a red car?

 

Problem child: I can´t talk about my car because it´s not safe.

 

Curious child: OK, what do you think they´re serving for lunch today at the cafeteria.

 

Problem child: Who cares.  I´ve got a shiny new toy car but I won´t show it to you.

 

Please see this post:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49746-continuation/?do=findComment&comment=899610

 

About us wanting drama, if we had millions of dollars, we would buy this forum from Sean, and we would impose a moratoium on all Mo Pai discussion. 

 

There would be zero drama from Mo Pai discussion at least here if we were in control.

[liminal_luke]

4 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

Please see this post:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/49746-continuation/?do=findComment&comment=899610

 

About us wanting drama, if we had millions of dollars, we would buy this forum from Sean, and we would impose a moratoium on all Mo Pai discussion. 

 

There would be zero drama from Mo Pai discussion at least here if we were in control.

 

If you really want discussion about Mo Pai to stop, Mildmouse, you could lead the way by not contributing to the discussion.  For instance, you could refuse to reply to this and all subsequent posts in this thread.  The conversation would dry up quick, I assure you.  You could engage in threads about other topics and not interpret everything through the lens of your practice and practice group.  The only reason people know you´re involved with Mo Pai at all is that you´ve said so.  If you stop saying so people will forget and you´ll get the moratorium you say you want -- and save the millions of dollars you imagine it would take to buy the forum from Sean!

 

Of course you may want to talk about Mo Pai and that´s fine.  I just wish you´d actually really talk about it -- the technique, the results, etc.  If it´s not safe to talk about it because people here are too...well, I don´t know what...but anyway, if you can´t talk about it here, then don´t.  That´s fine too.  

[ilumairen]

34 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

 

In the past people mentioned using a grounding wire, and that became a mantra of we stick wires up our butts.

 

In the past someone mentioned our teacher passed away with cancer with it's genome linked to agent orange exposure, and poof suddenly he practiced incorrectly and caused his own cancer and deserved it HAHAHAHAH!

 

I have seen these two here.

 

34 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

In the past one member mentioned they personally used melatonin, and chamomile tea to aid in meditation and poof we have to drug ourselves or we give instructions to use drugs for meditation.

 

This one I have not seen, although I believe you. 

 

34 minutes ago, MildMouse23 said:

These are just a few examples but I could fill up pages with more.

 

It is best not to attempt to share anything in such an environment it is like throwing gasoline on a fire we are trying to put out.

 

What are your thoughts on the dynamic here, and how and why it plays out?

[MegaMind]

Just now, ilumairen said:

 

I have seen these two here.

 

 

This one I have not seen, although I believe you. 

 

 

What are your thoughts on the dynamic here, and how and why it plays out?

 

 

Oh I can answer this one, and I can explain it quite well. 

 

However I cannot do it here publicly without dumping a truckload of gasoline on this fire.

 

Feel free to send me a PM if you like.

[ilumairen]

 

43 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Problem child: I´ve got a shiny new toy car but I won´t show it to you.

 

Curious child: Is it a red car?

 

Problem child: I can´t talk about my car because it´s not safe.

 

Curious child: OK, what do you think they´re serving for lunch today at the cafeteria.

 

Problem child: Who cares.  I´ve got a shiny new toy car but I won´t show it to you.

 

Somehow I don't think this is how "they" view the dynamic.. and I'm wondering what it would take for the dynamic to shift for all involved.