Circular breathing vs breathing with pauses (Bruce Frantzis related)

[markern]

I have recently become interested in Bruce Frantzis Water Method.However,  there is one aspect of it that makes me skeptical if the system is a good fit for me. He describes his longevity breathing as a form of breathing where one breathes without the pauses between the in breath and the out breath and between the out breath and the in breath. And this form of breathing is used in his form of yoga. I'm not sure if its also used in his Nei Gong. I'm sure this form of breathing can have its benefits and I`d be up for practicing it for some of the time, but I am skeptical of using it as the general form of breathing in qigong as I like breathing with pauses and this seems the most natural to me.

 

If I meditate by just watching the breath the pauses between the breaths become larger and larger until the breath almost stops and for some rare periods seems to have stopped entirely. This make me think the pauses are natural and important. As far as I have understood the goal of embryonic breathing is also to have the breath stop and this is seen as a very healthy and energetically powerful state. 

When I observe the movements and the pauses of the breath the pauses seem to have an energy of stillness to them. And this energy expands as I become aware of it. So it seems to me that the pauses are critical for stillness to increase. Which in turn makes me skeptical of breathing without pauses. 

In the Longevity Breathing Yoga book Frantzis writes that the pauses in peoples breath creates stress whereas the continuous circular breathing makes relaxation easier. I can see that the pauses in regular stressed out peoples breath could function like that and be based on tension. But the pauses that show up during meditation seems based on relaxation and seem to increase relaxation. So I don't really understand why breathing without pauses should be more relaxing then having them elongate. 

I`m fine with practicing this form of breathing as one part of and overall system. I'm sure it has some benefits. But if its a form of breathing to be used all the time both in his yoga and his Nei Gong I would find this unappealing. Can someone experienced in the Water Method explain how this works to me?




 

Edited September 12, 2019 by markern

[Wu Ming Jen]

Bruce has it right the breath should revolve like the yin yang symbol. At higher stages long smooth breathing so the ears can not hear the breath. This breathing pattern has tremendous healing and power qualities. with lower abdominal breathing this smooth round breathing massages the organs and helps keep them in proper position. stillness is like you are not breathing at all.

 

Putting too much attention on breathing will stagnate energy so once you get it without thinking and is just normal breathing all day the positive effects will show up quickly.

[markern]

Thanks for the reply!

But isn't the goal of embryonic breathing for the breath to stop? And isn't that considered an extraordinary healthy state to be in?

I dont like controlling my breath much. I could do it every now and then but as my main practice I would never do that. And wouldn't this form of circular breathing always require some form of controlling the breath? Even if very subtle?

Edited September 12, 2019 by markern

[Wu Ming Jen]

Mind and breath rest on each other if mind is distracted use breath to adjust. If breath is rough use mind to adjust. Imagine a meditative state where all systems slow down including the breath and mind is sharp and very aware. This is as if breathing has stopped. 

 

Following the breath is awesome then we see how a single thought changes the breathing. Taoist breathing is mixing post heaven and pre heaven Chi. We are basically training the breath to be like an infant the reversal of chest breathing then mouth breathing that leads to the last breath.

[Taomeow]

There's many different kinds of breathing that are used for different purposes.  The breathing with a pause at exhale is fully legit for some practices -- especially neigong, neijing and neidan. The Chinese character for "exhale" comes from an older pictogram that shows a heart leaning against a tree trunk, literal meaning -- "pause, stop and rest your heart."   At the exhalation, let your heart lean against that pause, settle before moving on.   

 

In a sitting meditation, circular breathing is fine -- you don't get tired sitting doing nothing , so you may not need to rest your heart in between breaths. 

 

Whereas toward certain goals of cultivation that involve "doing something," taoists might use some super funky breathing techniques.   But that's usually for later.  Beginners might do better not controlling their breath at all, but of course it depends on what the teacher tells you to do.  

[Everything]

Because we often meditate, to release energetically resistant / self contradictory thought patterns, and allow our natural state of well-being to flow more freely through us, every meditation contains an element of focus, holding attention/awareness consistently on object of focus, which often feels unnatural at first, because the mind wants to continue to think old thoughts, but it is not necessary to do what you've been used to do doing, when you meditate. For during meditation, we let go fully of everything and allow our natural well being to naturally restore itself. So you don't surrender who you truely are, you surrender yourself TO All that you truely are. You allow yourself to become the fullness of all that you truely are, you allow yourself to be and become a fully realised being, evermore so fully realised here and now.

 

As it is for the purpose of releasing energetically resistant/contradictory thought patterns, which block your natural full realisation from naturally automatically happening or being allowed to flow fully through you. Hence it is ok if you breath in a way that is not the way you are used to breathing, but still healthy, such as taking deep and slow breaths in and out. 3 seconds in and 5 seconds out is very conducive of feeling more oxigenated, for the purpose of flowing your natural good feeling well-being more consciously more fully through you, helping you also focus thus relax your mind deeper aswell. It also creates a soft high feeling, helps reduce physical awareness, making focus overal more assisted by the combination of extra oxigen and the extra slow breathing out helps relax and rejuvinate your muscles and release any tension. It's a very holistic form of breathing. Creating more lucidity and more soft but high conscious awareness, creating high state of clarity, for the allowing of the natural synchronisation of your physical and non-physical greater consciousness to be more blended, harmonized, more fully realised by you. It is the rythm of refreshing wakefulness, of the fullness of realising the fullness of every new here and now moment. Comfortable, relaxed, highly energised and refreshing state of being.

 

The more consistenly you are capable of holding your awareness on whatever your object of focus, the "deeper" the meditation, as the more fully you let go of thought, the more fully you let go of energetically resistant / contradictory thought aswell, the more fully you allow your natural full blown realisation of all that you truely are being and becoming here, flowing pure thought through you, allowing it to also be fully realised by you, without contradicting it, fully allowing it to be fully realised by you, of fully inspired thought, of full blown realisation. Of any and all things that truely is of value for you to know here and now.

 

So you're not going deep, you are actually deeply letting go. To allow your greater non-physical consciousness to arrise to the surface of your mind more fully, more freely, thus also more consciously and more fully realised by you. As true pure fully realised, good feeling, thoughts. Of your true nature of being, of all that you truely are, being and becoming evermore here and now.

 

For when you don't think, you also don't think resistant thoughts. And so, your natural state of being inspired, in spiraling inspiration, by your own greater knowing, and intelligence, of your greater non-physical consciousness, is more intermediated. It is all about opening the way for that natural harmonization to occur, as it already always wants to do. Meditating for the purpose of tapping in to your greater, emotionally, energy motionally, better feeling, good feeling, natural flow of inspiration and intelligence, and of realisation, of fully ceasing the moment, fully allowing the moment to come to full realisation for you, by you, as ALL that you truely are. As the fullness of you being fully realised by you. That's why you meditate. For when you allow that, you simply feel good, and life goes well for you. You are inspired, to inspired action, effortless joyous, succesful, valuable, purposeful, meaningful, lovable, enjoyable, free, joyful. All good things that are all here and now for you evermore. You just gotta find a way to allow it for yourself to simply occur naturally as it is always attempting to do so, by allowing it more deliberately more fully, by no longer blocking it with contradictory thought, that do not allow you to realise fully realised thought. Pure thought. Purely fully realised thought. Good feeling thoughts. Total thoughts. About all that you truely are being and becoming evermore, of all that truely matters to you, all that you truely want and love, of all that you truely ARE being and becoming evermore here and now, fully realised by you fully here and now. Your greater knowing fully allowed to flow through you, and you flowing with it. Going with the flow of the ever abounding stream of well-being that is at the source of all creation.

 

You meditate to feel good emotionally. That's how you know you are indeed releasing resistance. But often, if the focus and consistency of awareness is there, the meditation will simply happen naturally all by itself. It's not something you have to do, but rather allow, and you do the focusing to allow the allowing, to no longer contradict the allowing to naturally happen/occur. Your effort is channeled for the intention of focusing and holding awareness consistently upon a object of attention/focus/awareness, so that you get out of your own way, to allow your full true nature to be realised by you, whatever that object of your attention/focus may be, it is of no relevance, except that it doesn't encourage thought. As you also do so, to quiet the mind. To enter the receiving mode, of your own greater non-physical consciousness, to tap in to the good feeling flow of your greater non-physical consciousness, and allow it to be fully realised by you, as thoughts of inspiration, that feel very good.

 

And to allow that to happen naturally, nothing needs to be done. You just need to be assured, that you don't block it, so your effort is again, channeled, to holding your attention consistently on the object of focus, for the purpose of excersizing the art of allowing, the act of non-action of letting go and allowing. If breathing 3 seconds in and 5 seconds out, helps with that, that's great. What you don't wanna do, is fall asleep. Because you need to allow the conscious benefit of realising that you are capable of allowing your true good feeling nature to flow fully through you. So a conscious meditation is also the point of meditation. To learn how to consciously allow your greater knowing to flow more fully through you, so that it can benefit your conscious waking life thus also fully, of realising ongoingly, pure positive thought, in harmony with your truely fully realised nature. And to understand, that it is your true normal natural nature to do so, it is not extra natural, it is super natural. Very natural. Very natural to feel good, and fully realise the allness that you are of the fully here and now fully realised here and now moment. And the fully realised value of the here and now moment, and the fully realised good feeling inspirationally realised path of least resistance, that is always here and now for you, if you allow yourself to allow yourself to realise it. And meditating helps you allow yourself to realise it. Leaving behind thoughts of resistance/contradiction fully, to naturally allow your full realisation to simply naturally happen and occur for you, thus feeling very good, very inspired.

 

Some people focus on the breathing, some people focus on a mantra, some people imagine a vision and fully focus on it, holding the attention and awareness consistently upon it. Some people gaze at a candle light, and hold their awareness consistently on their visual awareness of the candlelight. It is all meditation. You let go of the questions, in order to allow the answers that are already always flowing to you, to be fully realised by you! To allow your greater non-physical consciousness. Which contains all the energy of well-being, and your full blown realisation of the path of least resistance for you and of you evermore here and now! To all things that you can or will ever want to be do or have evermore! And to allow that and flow with that fully consciously allow it, that is the joy of life, of your unique life of all that you truely are. It is all about, you, you and YOU. blending you and You, physical and non-physical, harmonizing, allowing, coming back into alignment, with all that you are,  to the fullness of all that you truely are, to be fully realised by you, in full joy, which indicates your allowance of your blending here and now.

 

So again, the point of meditation is not the meditation itself. It is simply for the purpose of coming back into alignment with the Source of All Creation.  Your infinite and eternal nature of being, fully realised, here and now. Becoming a blended being. Physical AND non-physical, hand in hand. A fully realised being. Together, as one. In harmony. Converging, indicated by your good feeling energy motional good feeling emotions, like positive good feeling emotions of joy, indicating your blending and alignment and full allowing of your full realisation of your fully realised YOU. All that you truely are. Your full nature of Being and becoming. Evermore, here and now. Ever more so fully and so more fully enjoyed by you. For the joy, of the eternal journey that is all that you truely are being and becoming evermore here and now.

 

And to understand that we can always simply choose this for ourselves. To learn how to allow the fullness of all that we truely are to flow more fully through us, for our own personal and individual satisfaction, of coming to full realisation of all that we truely are, as the joy of the eternal journey that is who we truely are. Of all that matters to you. Being fully realised by you. Here and now, where all of your power truely always is. To choose to open up and allow the well being that is of all of existance, and to the freedom and joy that is who you are. That is thus the indication, that you are being fully in alignment with all that you truely are. Coming back into alignment with the Source of All Creation. 

 

That is why you meditate. And the meditation itself is very easy. Simply hold your attention and awareness and keep replacing it back on your object of focus/awareness, and hold it there as consistently as you can, ongoingly, untill you do reach the state of allowing fully. And then you will simply naturally, effortlessly and joyously come to full blown good feeling realisation of all that truely is of who you truely are. Your true infinite and eternal nature of being. It's simply a joyful realisation of a joyful thought that feels good, indicating it is your path of least resistance, to all that you truely are being and becoming evermore. And so you flow that good feeling realisation fully through you for the purpose of enjoying it, more fully, thus it expands in your awareness evermore, and as it does, your alignment with all that you truely are keeps expanding, naturally effortlessly. Joyously, joyfully, good feelingly. And life keeps becoming better and better for you. There is no end goal, you are simply here for the joy of the eternal journey. You are free to enjoy all that you truely enjoy evermore. There is no end to it. Whatever you want, is only an allowed good feeling realisation away. It is all about energy, everything is energy. Who you truely are is also energy. To come back into alignment with all that you truely are, simply always feels very good. Because you allow yourself to realise everything that truely matters to you.

 

And it's simply so easy to allow all of that with a simple meditation. Hence why talk about it for millions of years and send prophets and sages and teachers forever and ever and ever ongoingly. This universe is efficient if nothing else! Hence all the great teachers simply always teach meditation. And then you get the entire teaching, from your own soul, from your own greater knowing, from your own true fully realised nature of being here and now. You don't need any intermediary to come to full realisation of all that you truely are. You already are it! You just gotta allow it to be realised by you, through the path of least resistance, that is also what meditation is. To help you release resistance to your own greater knowing, to allow it to flow more fully through you. You are inseperable from your greater non-physical consciousness, and even the Source of All Creation. That is also why you feel emotion. To indicate your state of alignment with your true fully realised nature of being here and now. And you are here to allow your true nature to flow more fully through you. That is also why it feels good/better to do so, because it is compatible with your nature. So that you can enjoy your life. Being and becoming who you truely are, evermore fully here and now. Evermore fully enjoyed by you.

 

Hence you meditate, to release all thought, and so to also thus automatically release all resistant thought, and so to allow your natural realisation to be naturally effortlessly realised by you, automatically, effortlessly, good feelingly. You just allow it to happen and it will. And how do you know you are allowing? Again, your emotions indicate your state of allowing, your natural blending to occur, or not, or less. resistance/allowance, negative emotion/positive emotion. It's simply your energy motional guidance system. So as you meditate, and not think contradictory thought, you will be more easily capable of feeling better, and allowing more good feeling thoughts to be more naturally and effortlessly realised by you. It's all about getting out of your own way. Feeling better. Emotionally. That is your guide. And meditation is the tool to help your realise your goal. To feel better. Because whatever happens once you feel better, no matter how amazing it is, it is all secondary. It happens through you, and for you, and as you, and with you. Evermore. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Everything

[freeform]

17 hours ago, markern said:

I dont like controlling my breath much.

 

The tricky thing is that your uncontrolled way of breathing contains all your mental and emotional defilements.

 

You said that when you absorb your mind into your breathing that you naturally increase pauses in between breaths. That doesn’t ring true to me. There are classically 5 qualities in breath that should arise - pauses are not part of that.

 

What I’ve noticed is that most practices of absorption into breath are very faulty. There is a great deal of subtlety involved when you Ting the breath - and most methods I’ve come across simply fall way short of this.

 

Once you do manage to Ting the breath properly, the 5 qualities arise of their own accord one after the other over a period of some months of practice.

 

The first quality, as has been mentioned is ‘Quiet’... that means there is no noise created, and there is no turbulence of the air current.

 

The second quality is ‘Deep’ - that means the breath automatically sinks to the lower Dantien.

 

Then come At Ease, Slow and Cotton... once these are all achieved, then your breathing will, over time, naturally begin to get into other styles of breathing by itself - including reverse breathing, Dantien breathing, embryonic breathing etc.

 

(And if you move into alchemical training, and create the prerequisite qualities in your body, then the various alchemical fire breaths will also spontaneously arise)

 

So yes I agree that although controlling your breath can be used sometimes for specific processes, the deeper aspects of breath can only come about when they arise spontaneously as a result of full absorption (Ting) into breath over a long period of time...

 

I also suspect you haven’t been given the correct approach to absorbing into breath...

[Taomeow]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

 

There are classically 5 qualities in breath that should arise - pauses are not part of that.

 

But a neijia practitioner will disagree.  Especially in a non-cooperative tuishou encounter with another neijia practitioner.  You'll be out of breath and panting in a minute. 

 

The test of having mastered your breath is administered by stress.  If you are always in charge of it for as long as no one and nothing challenges your "quiet, deep, at ease, slow and cotton," and lose this control as soon as you are under pressure, you (the generic you, not you personally) are like most meditators who are masters of control in meditation and of nothing outside meditation.  To find out if you are really in control of your breath, you need to put it to the stress test.  

 

There's two major kinds of breath -- the way you breathe in ideal circumstances and the way you breathe in extreme circumstances.  Everything else is secondary.  And breath that does not know the full exhalation with pause cannot serve in extreme circumstances.  It does not know where the extreme is.  If someone punches you in the stomach, you don't absorb -- you return.  Try returning without a breath pause.  (Real-life exercise from my training.)  Ting is a skill of listening to yourself and other.  

[dwai]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The tricky thing is that your uncontrolled way of breathing contains all your mental and emotional defilements.

More like your mental and emotional defilements affect the uncontrolled way of breathing. There is a definite sequence of causality here. 

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

You said that when you absorb your mind into your breathing that you naturally increase pauses in between breaths. That doesn’t ring true to me. There are classically 5 qualities in breath that should arise - pauses are not part of that.

That is not entirely correct. When we sit with our breath, the breathing automatically elongates and even stops. This is a sign of a mind that has been both purified as well as become single-pointed. The purification and single-pointedness of the mind will continue to increase until there is total cessation of thoughts, with only a luminous clarity remaining. 

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

What I’ve noticed is that most practices of absorption into breath are very faulty. There is a great deal of subtlety involved when you Ting the breath - and most methods I’ve come across simply fall way short of this.

 

Once you do manage to Ting the breath properly, the 5 qualities arise of their own accord one after the other over a period of some months of practice.

 

The first quality, as has been mentioned is ‘Quiet’... that means there is no noise created, and there is no turbulence of the air current.

 

The second quality is ‘Deep’ - that means the breath automatically sinks to the lower Dantien.

 

Then come At Ease, Slow and Cotton... once these are all achieved, then your breathing will, over time, naturally begin to get into other styles of breathing by itself - including reverse breathing, Dantien breathing, embryonic breathing etc.

 

(And if you move into alchemical training, and create the prerequisite qualities in your body, then the various alchemical fire breaths will also spontaneously arise)

This is a very nice description. 

7 hours ago, freeform said:

So yes I agree that although controlling your breath can be used sometimes for specific processes, the deeper aspects of breath can only come about when they arise spontaneously as a result of full absorption (Ting) into breath over a long period of time...

 

I also suspect you haven’t been given the correct approach to absorbing into breath...

Yogic pranayama (when done right) will result in purification and focusing of the mind, and it is done with active control. There are specific techniques in pranayama where we will apply internal and external breath holds (antara and bahya kumbhaka) along with postural locks to help direct the life force through the central channel. But these are advanced techniques and should only be done under supervision of an experienced teacher. 

 

It boils down to which tradition one is following. Even in Taoist traditions there are different ways. For instance, in our system -- as beginners we were told not to hold our breath. But later on we are asked to hold our breath during certain types of meditations.  We do forward breathing and reverse breathing depending on what we want to do, and so on. 

 

And as OP suggested there ARE times when breath will suspend on its own, for minutes at a time. That is not a bad thing. 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

in a non-cooperative tuishou encounter

 

Yes I think I see where you’re coming from.

 

What I’m talking about is not a specific type of breathing - and not a form of breath control. It’s an approach to changing your breath quality... quality is very different to a breathing technique.

 

The quality of Quiet first manifests as actual quietness - but quiet is also the quality of Qi and a quality of mind... When Qi creates no ‘turbulence’ as it moves it is Quiet... When mind is quiet, there is no turbulence of thought...

 

Each quality has depth beyond its initial manifestation in breathing practice...

 

For example the quality of ‘Quiet’ first manifests as actual reduction of noise in breathing during absorption into breath... Next it manifests as a change in the quality of your Qi... Then it manifests as a change in the quality of mind.

 

Once you have the quality of Quiet manifest in your Qi, then it doesn’t matter how loud your breathing, you still have the quality of Quiet in your Qi. 

 

The same with Slow... at first it’s the gradual slowing of the breath physically to around 2 breaths a minute... on the level of Qi, ‘slow’ means your Qi moves smoothly and not erratically... once this quality is ‘built’ in your body, qi and mind, it doesn’t matter how fast you’re breathing, but the quality is still present.

 

So for example you might find yourself spontaneously starting martial fire breathing (which is very fast and very loud)... but your mind is equanimous, your Qi is smooth, non erratic, strong, sunk and anchored etc...

 

Once the qualities start to manifest fully, you start spontaneously moving into other forms of breathing like Dantien breathing or embryonic breathing (where yes, the breathing stops)

 

So again - we’re not talking about a specific form of breathing, but letting go of any attempt to affect the breathing in any way, and instead absorb completely into the breathing process (inside)... once this absorption is achieved, the qualities will manifest by themselves, step by step... then the other forms of breathing will start to manifest...

 

If your breathing is pausing at the ends of your breath without all these qualities being present, then this is happening because of mental and emotional defilements (even from subconscious ideas of how one must breathe)

 

From the Daoist perspective, if you’re contriving your breath in some way - then it’s not wei wu wei. It might create certain experiences and have specific uses (and contrived breathing is most definitely used in Daoism as well as many other systems) - but it is not full transformation and cannot transform spirit.

 

[Taomeow]

14 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes I think I see where you’re coming from.

 

 

 

Are you sure?    I'm not a theorist.  I'm a practicing taoist and I practice what my teachers (martial and alchemical) tell me to, because I've been at it for quite a while and learned to trust them.  Do you know both neijia and neidan?  Which schools, systems, styles specifically?  What's your system's source?  What are "defilements" -- do you mean what I would mean (though I would use a very different term) when thinking of those impediments to a smooth flow of unentangled qi, or something else?  (I could elaborate on what I would mean, and I would use the term "traumatic developmental history," not "defilements" -- can you elaborate on what you mean?)   Also, which "spirit" are you aiming to transform with breath?  How would it work on Danzhu spirit of the mouth, Zhenglun spirit of the tongue, Luoqian spirit of the teeth, Huben spirit of the throat?  And what about the internal gods?  Will they cooperate or block your effort?  And what would you undertake to secure their cooperation?  

 

Taoism is not "wei wu wei."  Wei wu wei is part of its conceptual framework and empirical participation (or non-participation, however you look at it) but the great mother nurtures her infant deliberately.  It's a choice of action or non-action, and both can be spontaneous or deliberate, and either can have a spontaneous or deliberate action or non-action as its alternative, it's not that one is "wei wu wei" and the other "not wei wu wei."  If only because you can't quite tell, without actually having been there, which one is wei wu wei and which one isn't.  The great mother, just like her lesser incarnation, can walk away from the baby's pleas for nourishment (loud and disturbing to her peace) in perfect wei wu wei and let it starve and die.  A cat of mine made a deliberate decision when her six kittens were born -- "I can support five."  She dragged the sixth in my bed repeatedly, dumped it there and went to be an exemplary mother to the other five.  "This one is yours, you take care of it.  I can support five."  Wei wu wei or not?..  

 

I overruled her and made her take care of six, by dragging the kitten back to her every single time.  Wei wu wei or not?..   That kitten is now my cat of nine years.  Meow.  

 

To nurse a baby or not is a decision and a rather deliberate one and simultaneously a rather spontaneous one -- just "going with the (whatever) flow" doesn't begin to cut it.  But it may be one of those "you have to have been there" jokes.  (I've been there -- and not only with kittens. ) 

[liminal_luke]

27 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

 What are "defilements" -- do you mean what I would mean (though I would use a very different term) when thinking of those impediments to a smooth flow of unentangled qi, or something else?  (I could elaborate on what I would mean, and I would use the term "traumatic developmental history," not "defilements" -- can you elaborate on what you mean?)  

 

Taomeow, as a person with a "traumatic developmental history" (aren`t we all?) I appreciate your care with terminology.  Life is occasionally tough and I`ve been known to judge myself harshly.  I`d rather not add "defilements" to my list of negative stuff to deal with.

Edited September 13, 2019 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

14 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Taomeow, as a person with a "traumatic developmental history" (aren`t we all?) I appreciate your care with terminology.  Life is occasionally tough and I`ve been known to judge myself harshly.  I`d rather not add "defilements" to my list of negative stuff to deal with.

The topic of "purification" bothered me for many years early on in my practice. To say "mind is impure" or "mind is defiled" automatically tends to evoke the feeling of "sin" etc in the modern mind.

 

The reason why is because of the western conception of "sin", "original sin" etc have become surreptitiously ingrained into our psyche. Even someone who is a Hindu by birth and practice (such as moi) is affected by that. 

 

As a result thereof, we struggle with self-flagellation (mental usually) and it leads to self-loathing. The main thing that helped me is to realize that the mind is not me. It is a handy instrument. If we let our instrument wallow in crap, it will become crap-laden. Most of the modern onslaught on our minds is essentially crap of the world. Hence, the use of the term defilement would be apropos. There is no need to judge. Just notice and work towards cleaning the instrument up.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by dwai

[Taomeow]

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

The topic of "purification" bothered me for many years early on in my practice. To say "mind is impure" or "mind is defiled" automatically tends to evoke the feeling of "sin" etc in the modern mind.

 

The reason why is because of the western conception of "sin", "original sin" etc have become surreptitiously ingrained into our psyche. Even someone who is a Hindu by birth and practice (such as moi) is affected by that. 

 

As a result thereof, we struggle with self-flagellation (mental usually) and it leads to self-loathing. The main thing that helped me is to realize that the mind is not me. It is a handy instrument. If we let our instrument wallow in crap, it will become crap-laden. Most of the modern onslaught on our minds is essentially crap of the world. Hence, the use of the term defilement would be apropos. There is no need to judge. Just notice and work towards cleaning the instrument up.

 

 

I believe all Indo-European systems use the idea of "sin" though not necessarily the word.  Some call it "desires and attachments" -- and those are not compliments in these systems.  

 

I agree that "some" minds are "not me" and (sadly) even the majority today.  For me it was a shocking early discovery in my body-inclusive therapy, and I remember ending one session with not so much intellectual or even emotional as physiological, visceral rejection of the part of my mind I discovered to be "not me."  "I don't want his stuff in my head," I proclaimed, in great despair, much like someone would perceive a discovery of a microchip implant and learning that everything she thought was her thought process, beliefs, ideas, attitudes was programmed -- and carelessly and sloppily at that -- by whoever installed the chip.  It physically felt like massive Gothic shaped sharp, hostile, overwhelming cathedrals of an alien faith erected all over my mind -- since birth.   Interestingly, realizing that they are not yours sometimes turns them to dust on the spot, sometimes you need to work to identify and dismantle them -- but  the best part of the process (which can be, and was, very painful) is that underneath all that "alien civilization" in your mind, you might discover the real mind that is yours.  The real me.  Just me.  And that's something that feels amazing -- and enough.  

 

So, I don't think "defilement" is accurate, on top of having unpleasant connotations of  one being "unclean" -- some of those alien civilizations are very clean and tidy and orderly and shiny and pretty and PC and following all the "right thoughts right words" guidelines too.  The only problem being, they are still alien.  They are still not you.  Not the real you, not the real mind that's yours.  They are something that sits on top and stifles your "real me" and replaces it for all practical purposes.  Like a possession.  Like a demon with a thousand heads.  And they can be nice looking heads, reputable, sanctioned by a whole culture of many centuries.  And still they are alien demons who devour the real you.  So the other problem with "defilement" is, it's absolutely lame, inadequate, to describe what's happened to us.  It creates this image of something reasonably clean but with a few unsightly spots on it (that you may or may not be guilty of having introduced by carelessly soiling something in your system).  Whereas what we're typically dealing with is a whole massive, monolithic alien invasion.  One needs to be prepared to encounter the kind of difficulties in fighting against that which should not be mistaken for a laundry day.  Too many are disappointed when they expect a quickie-mart enlightenment and get a lousy "I've been washed clean of my sins, desires and attachments" T-shirt to wear instead.   To be prepared to fight a heroic battle like a warrior is closer to the right approach methinks.  But then, it's "just me."  

[Creation]

Markern,

 

Whoa, blast from the past.  Hope you've been well brother. 

 

This is my 2 cents from learning and practicing some of the parts of Frantzis' system. 

 

While there is such a thing as the breath spontaneously stopping in meditation because energetic breathing has taken over, this is not the same as a beginning meditator finding that they have the tendency to hold the breath when they don't control the breath in any way.  The latter is a manifestation of a break or block in the energy flow associated with the breath.  Most of these happen at the transition between the inhale and exhale or vice versa, but not necessarily.  So the process of smoothing gaps in the breath is the process of smoothing gaps in the energy flow.  This is not done by pushing or willing the breath to not have pauses, but by releasing the blockage (dissolving in Frantzis' parlance, but the Chinese word is song/sung).  What made it click for me realizing that for the flow of breath to be smooth (in the technical mathematical sense), at the top of the inhale the rate of inhalation has to slow down gradually to nothing, and then the exhale begins slowly at first and gradually speeds up, and vice versa going from exhale to inhale.  Think of a sine curve if you like math.  Keeping this process of transition totally smooth is actually very nontrivial, you will start to feel all these ways it is getting stuck. 

 

Now, all of Frantzis' practices work at 3 levels: making you more healthy, making you a better internal martial artist, and serving as a foundation for spiritual work, and what is trained in one practices is incorporated into all the others. 

 

For the health aspect, in nei gong and taiji practice the movements are circular, with a yin (downward or pulling in) and yang (upward or pushing out) phase.  Energy is made to flow continuously through the movement without breaks, again without pushing or willing but by releasing the blockages, so that energy flows continuously through the channels during the form, and again, the transition from the yin portion to the yang portion is where the most tendency to get stuck is.  Training this circularity of energy in movement can be linked with the breath or not; either way training circularity in breathing and in movement support each other, and create a smooth, unbroken flow of energy throughout the body. 

 

The spiritual development aspect is that just as it can feel peaceful and spiritual to space out in meditation, but you are not really present so it doesn't lead to real spiritual development, feeling very peaceful when the breath stops spontaneously is another type of not being present.  (Embryo breathing is something very different than this.)  The martial arts aspect is that people tend to hold their breath when they are facing something emotionally stressful, and this is a sign of not being present to what you are experiencing.  Having trained a smooth flow of breath stand alone and then in your form trains you to stay present and fully conscious in a combat setting, which is an advantage even in external martial arts, but it essential to be fully present to use internal techniques rather than revert to brute force.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Creation

[freeform]

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Are you sure?

 

I’m not, no 

 

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

I'm not a theorist.  I'm a practicing taoist and I practice what my teachers (martial and alchemical) tell me to, because I've been at it for quite a while and learned to trust them.  Do you know both neijia and neidan?  Which schools, systems, styles specifically?  What's your system's source?  What are "defilements"

 

I’m not questioning whether you know what you’re talking about.

 

But there’s a chance you might not know what I’m talking about.

 

Im also ‘a practicing Daoist’... My main training is in Neigong, Neidan, meditative practice and although my teacher is very keen to teach me taiji and bagua, I simply have no time to train them at home - I already train up to 4hrs a day, and still need to earn money - so for me, the martial arts are very much tertiary, but I certainly have some experience in them and one of my teachers is very much a master.

 

What schools - my main teacher is from a specific line within Longmen. My secondary teacher (who teaches this more spontaneous approach) is from a line within the larger Quanzhen tradition. I also have (forest) Buddhist teachers in Burma who I see once every two years or so.

 

When I say defilements I mean ‘the acquired mind’... it’s not just ‘traumatic developmental history’... it’s that but also desires, aversions and other inclinations. One’s distaste for a word is neither here nor there - (that’s just a preference of the acquired mind ...)

 

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Taoism is not "wei wu wei."  Wei wu wei is part of its conceptual framework and empirical participation (or non-participation, however you look at it) but the great mother nurtures her infant deliberately.  It's a choice of action or non-action, and both can be spontaneous or deliberate

 

I can tell you’re trying to disagree, but I’m not sure exactly with what, or why...

 

I'm certainly not saying that Daoism is anything. Wei wu wei in this context follows ‘cause and effect’. Action - non action... The cause is creating the correct qualities of breath (using Ting and Sung - Listening, shedding and letting go rather than by ‘adding’ - superimposing some method of control over your breath) - the effect is the spontaneous transformation of ‘breath’ and ‘mind’ to yuan qi.

 

This is a specifically Quanzhen ‘middle vehicle’ approach to transforming Xing. I didn’t want to get too technical.

 

Although ‘adding’ through breath control will produce specific outcomes that are useful along the way, there is a glass ceiling to the depth of transformation. Only through Sung can the deepest layers be accessed - I.e. the spirit.

 

By spirit, I’m talking about Shen - and the deeper aspects of Shen. What you’d find once you walk through the Xuan men... Again I didn’t want to get too technical - this was a question about breathing practice after all.

 

No, I’m not talking about the spirit of the throat  (Shangqing??)

 

[forestofclarity]

Interesting. I was raised Catholic and actually became quite deeply involved with Christianity in my late teens. I took refuge as a Buddhist about 15 years ago. I still like to dip into the Christian pool from time to time, especially the works of David Bentley Hart. I like the mystics, but I can no longer understand the lay believer. But I was listening to an old high school friend who is now a pastor on a podcast. He was meeting with another pastor. The first thing they said was "Well, what do you believe?"

 

It seemed so strange to me. They then proceeding to discuss their beliefs intellectually, referring to the Bible. The whole thing struck me as surreal. Usually, when I meet other spiritual practitioners, we typically talk experiences. It seemed weird to hear people discuss things that were so far from their daily experience (such as whether Jesus did such and such or Paul said so and so). They spent a lot of time discussing whether the Bible taught whether people were chosen to be saved or not. 

 

 

On 9/13/2019 at 12:27 PM, dwai said:

The reason why is because of the western conception of "sin", "original sin" etc have become surreptitiously ingrained into our psyche. Even someone who is a Hindu by birth and practice (such as moi) is affected by that. 

 

 

I don't know about that. When I was a young Catholic, I felt guilty  a lot. A LOT. As a Buddhist, I never feel guilty. I may feel ignorant, or non-compassionate, or detached, or miserable but not guilty. As a Catholic, that mankind was inherently impure and could only be cured through the sacrifice of God's blood. As a Buddhist, I have come to realize that people are inherently good, and that right or wrong are a matter of perception. It is not a matter of sin but of ignorance. I'm sure there are some Buddhists who fall in the same sort of Catholic line, but not the ones I have known. When I took refuge, the nun explained that if you were trying to quit drinking, and you cut down from drinking 7 beers a day to 6, you were making progress. As a Catholic, a sin was a sin. End of story. 

 

So I would warrant that you're reading "sin" awfully broadly. Every spiritual system identifies an issue--- even the Daoists. Otherwise, what is the point of cultivating? 

 

On 9/13/2019 at 1:15 PM, Taomeow said:

 

I believe all Indo-European systems use the idea of "sin" though not necessarily the word.  Some call it "desires and attachments" -- and those are not compliments in these systems.  

 

 

[Taomeow]

@freeform Thanks for your elucidations.  

14 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I can tell you’re trying to disagree, but I’m not sure exactly with what, or why...

 

Why "trying?"  I'm disagreeing.   Specifically with this statement (made to someone else in the conversation)

 

On 9/13/2019 at 12:39 AM, freeform said:

 

You said that when you absorb your mind into your breathing that you naturally increase pauses in between breaths. That doesn’t ring true to me. There are classically 5 qualities in breath that should arise - pauses are not part of that.

  

and this one 

 

On 9/13/2019 at 9:58 AM, freeform said:

 

If your breathing is pausing at the ends of your breath without all these qualities being present, then this is happening because of mental and emotional defilements (even from subconscious ideas of how one must breathe)

 

From the Daoist perspective, if you’re contriving your breath in some way - then it’s not wei wu wei. It might create certain experiences and have specific uses (and contrived breathing is most definitely used in Daoism as well as many other systems) - but it is not full transformation and cannot transform spirit.

 

 

These and a few other things that I tried to explain why I disagree with (also not getting too technical).  Ting and sung outside an internal MA also got me scratching my head, since these are proprietary taiji concepts and phenomena, and I can't quite imagine how they can be put to the test of reality without, well, putting them to the test of reality.  I've met, at various taiji gatherings, workshops, camps, etc., many folks (too many) with a silver tongue singing sung and ting and what not, one of them even writes books on these subjects and is very prolific.  The problem is, you touch hands with them and they have nothing.  Not in the "good" sense of "nothingness."   And I've never,  ever touched anyone who was sung who was not an internal MA practitioner, and encountered someone who was ting without such specific cultivation only under very specific different conditions (some people are born with it and it's not unlike kundalini in that you have great trouble reigning it in, it's too much if you don't know how...  so, anyone spontaneously ting and with no skill developed to handle it is usually in a whole lot of trouble and possibly autistic.)   So, I also objected to speculations about these skills outside the practice they are derived from and are part and parcel of.  I may be wrong of course.  Haven't been shown how by real life yet, but anything is possible, of course.  Theoretically.  But to talk about them like you do in some contrast to neijia phenomena, skills, and methods used -- well, that sort of weirded me out.  And if I say neijia uses this type of breathing and you say this type of breathing is a sign of "defilement..."  ...

 

14 hours ago, freeform said:

 (Shangqing??)

 

 

Nope.  Longmen, part of the morning altar recitations of the school's scriptures.    

Edited September 14, 2019 by Taomeow

[dwai]

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Interesting. I was raised Catholic and actually became quite deeply involved with Christianity in my late teens. I took refuge as a Buddhist about 15 years ago. I still like to dip into the Christian pool from time to time, especially the works of David Bentley Hart. I like the mystics, but I can no longer understand the lay believer. But I was listening to an old high school friend who is now a pastor on a podcast. He was meeting with another pastor. The first thing they said was "Well, what do you believe?"

 

It seemed so strange to me. They then proceeding to discuss their beliefs intellectually, referring to the Bible. The whole thing struck me as surreal. Usually, when I meet other spiritual practitioners, we typically talk experiences. It seemed weird to hear people discuss things that were so far from their daily experience (such as whether Jesus did such and such or Paul said so and so). They spent a lot of time discussing whether the Bible taught whether people were chosen to be saved or not. 

My wife’s friend is a born again Christian. She is also all kinds of messed up. She likes to argue about the redeeming qualities of her faith, but lacks practical experience with anything remotely close to meditation or introspection. Logic is circular and always boils down to Jesus did this, did that. I asked her why doesn’t she keep her prayers personal - maybe meditate a bit instead of trying to convert us non-Christians. Her response was eye opening. She said that trying to convert people IS her way of praying.

 

Strange thing is she is licentious, doesn’t do anything for her fellow human in terms of humanitarian support, complains and is envious etc, etc. She just believes that having accepted some guy as her lord and savior she has license to do all sorts of degenerate things. 

 

Contrast that with another friend from childhood, who is Christian too.  When I met her and her husband after almost 30 years, I could literally see Jesus with her, at the causal level. Their presence was filled with compassion and love. Never tried to convert anyone. They serve people via charitable deeds and pro bono work (she’s a doctor and he’s a lawyer). 

 

Point I’m trying to make is, I’ll take a practitioner any day  over arm chair experts  

4 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

I don't know about that. When I was a young Catholic, I felt guilty  a lot. A LOT. As a Buddhist, I never feel guilty. I may feel ignorant, or non-compassionate, or detached, or miserable but not guilty. As a Catholic, that mankind was inherently impure and could only be cured through the sacrifice of God's blood. As a Buddhist, I have come to realize that people are inherently good, and that right or wrong are a matter of perception. It is not a matter of sin but of ignorance. I'm sure there are some Buddhists who fall in the same sort of Catholic line, but not the ones I have known. When I took refuge, the nun explained that if you were trying to quit drinking, and you cut down from drinking 7 beers a day to 6, you were making progress. As a Catholic, a sin was a sin. End of story. 

You might be surprised to find how much Christian thought has influenced English educated folks in other parts the world - like India. The 200 years of British rule has resulted in decay of our traditional knowledge systems, especially in the urban society.

 

[freeform]

10 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Why "trying?"  I'm disagreeing.   Specifically with this statement (made to someone else in the conversation)

 

 

Well with this post at least you’re doing a much better job of disagreeing!

 

So first part you disagreed with is the 5 qualities of breath. That’s probably the most important for this discussion.

 

Yes - depending on what lineage, there’s always a list of qualities to be achieved in breathing. One of my teachers lists 5, the other one 9... but the 9 is simply breaking down the 5 into more steps - so I tend to use the 5. This is taught specifically in the context of classical Qi Gong and Nei Gong (and further internal development)... maybe that’s why you haven’t come across this?

 

1. Jing - Quiet

2. Shen - Deep

3. Yu - At Ease

4. Huan - Slow

5. Mian - Cotton Soft

 

(sorry but I can’t type the Chinese characters, although I do have them in my notes)

 

This isn’t ‘theoretical’ - these are qualities that manifest physically, energetically and mentally (eventually leading to, but not affecting ‘spiritually’). They work like a chain of cause and effect... The correct method of absorption into breath causes the quality of Quiet to manifest automatically... as Quiet is achieved, it automatically leads to Deep... as Deep is achieved, it leads to At Ease and so on. Each has a specific ‘sign’ that the quality has been achieved on the various levels.

 

According to one of my teachers, approaching your breathing practice in this way - through this cause and effect chain, rather than by contriving these qualities (as in attempting to deepen the breath) - results in cultivating both Xing and Ming... 

 

And once all the qualities are achieved, not only do other breathing patterns appear spontaneously during practice (like embryonic breathing, pore breathing etc)... But even if you ‘do’ a specific breathing pattern (say reverse breathing), it will come ‘spontaneously’ - not by contrivance - it would be like letting go of every breathing pattern other than reverse breathing... So you take on a specific type of breath through Sung - letting go, rather than ‘acting’. (Hence wei wu wei)

 

My other teacher agrees, but thinks it’s too slow for where he wants to take his students  (he leans more towards Ming with his training approach)

 

This is the approach of Ting and Sung in breath-work... Listening or absorbing deeply into your breathing process - and then letting go until a quality arises spontaneously. 

 

Ting and Sung underpin the approach to all genuine internal arts - including Qigong and Neigong. In fact I believe that Ting is developed to a much higher degree in Neigong than in Taiji... conversely Sung is generally more developed in genuine Taiji practitioners  than in Neigong practitioners.

 

Although I don’t train Taiji at home (just ‘play’ with my teacher when on retreat), when I touch hands with people that have Taiji skill, they definitely feel that something is going on. They tend to find it hard to sink ‘under’ me, to take control. I tend to find that my legs are not as Sung as good Taiji players, but my Ting is better... I can usually touch their feet, anticipate change, and sometimes touch ‘non physical’ tension.

 

Although my body is connected, I haven’t developed Peng or an ability to fa jin... but if I’m feeling sneaky and direct a tiny bit of Yang Qi to any ‘non physical’ tension I touch, they usually burst out in nervous laughter (or some other emotional reaction)... (I’ve been told off for doing this, so no more of that). I also find that my Dantien is a lot more developed than most Taiji players. But again - that’s because it’s what I’ve been working on for years.

 

Regarding your other points of disagreement - I don’t think it would add anything to the conversation here for me to clarify these further...

Edited September 15, 2019 by freeform

[Everything]

You have to shift the core energy motional alignment, emotion (closing the gap between your physical and non-physical being, by feeling better), by meditating to release resistant/contradictory thought, then the alignment naturally happens automatically, and then from that core essential alignment, everything in your body comes back into natural alignment. It is simply the natural stream of inspiration that feeling good/better brings you, or brings you more of, of your own greater non-physical consciousness. That is a stream of energy that you allow yourself to come back into alignment with, for doing so, is being a fully realised being, physical and non-physical hand in hand, co-blended and in harmony.

 

For your greater non-physical consciousness, as pure positive energy, is already is always, unconditionally, meaning under any and all conditions, regardless of any and all conditions, in perfect alignment with all the things you want to be do or have, evermore. As an energetic state of being, in full alignment with the Source of All Creation. Meaning, the expansion is eternal and your being is infinite. And you are also unique evermore.

 

So when you say "I don't like controlling my breath" you actually utilize your emotional guidance system correctly. For whenever you try something, you are actually creating the illusion that you are doing something, which is not what you are actually doing. And so you would feel this negative emotion, as your indicator, that you are causing yourself to be out of alignment with your own greater knowing, that is of your very own greater non-physical consciousness, that contains your greater knowing for you evermore. And that resistant/contradictory thought that feels thus less good, doesn't need to be healed, it just needs to be let go of, and your natural alignment with your greater knowing is naturally and effortlessly and automatically allowed to happen. And that is why you wanna let go of trying to control anything, rather when in alignment with your natural state of being in full joy, everything in your life is allowed to come into greater allowed alignment with everything you truely want to be do or have. And that full allowed realisation of fully realised, pure desire, is what life is all about. Being in pure joy.

 

Sure you can experience, a discomfort in breathing, or any illness or any disease, and then know you want to experience a greater state of well-being. But the important thing to remember is that your greater non-physical consciousness always already becomes everything you want to be do or have. So you don't necessary need to focus figure out all the details that are of your pure desire, even tho it can help you close that gap to focus on well-being and feeling good or better, even with breathing in a way that feels better. But the point is more about feeling better, emotionally, energy motionally, unconditionally. Because your greater non-physical consciousness is not limitted to a perfect state of breathing alone. It is about everything in your life, coming back to fuller greater allowed realisation. 

 

So again, it doesn't matter if you breath faster or slower or stop breathing, or deep continuesly. As long as it feels better, emotionally, it means you are releasing resistance, you are closing the gap between you and You. And out of that greater allowed alignment, indicated by emotional relief of feeling better, everything is allowed to come back to fuller or greater allowed realisation in your life. For you can improve the conditions of your life, including your health and state of well-being, by simply watching videos of cute animals. If you appreciate anything, truely find a thought of appreciation that feels emotionally very good, that thought, that state of being, it brings everything back into full alignment with your greater allowed realisation, as that thought, indicated by your emotional guidance system as positive emotion, is indicating your alignment with the path of least resistance, that is the path that feels most like joy, towards everything that you can ever want to be do or have. 

 

For feeling better, emotionally, whatever or however you allow yourself to feel better, meditating, or focusing on things that feel better ongoingly, that is the path of lesser resistance. And the path of lesser resistance is the path of least resistance towards the path of least resistance towards the path of least resistance, of your evermore greater allowed being and becoming in full harmony and alignment with your true natural state of being a perfectly blended being in full alignment and harmony with your own greater non-physical consciousness as your soul of pure positive energy, that literally becomes everything your life has caused you to come to realise for yourself you truely want to be do or have, and beams it to you, unconditionally, as unconditional love, evermore, for your very own unconditional ability to come back into alignment with the whole ALL that you've truely become in your evermore state of being and becoming evermore. That is why you feel emotion always as your emotional guidance system. To help you come back to full realisation evermore. Effortlessly easily, allowedly, letting goingly and allowingly. Feeling betterly, feeling goodingly, enjoyably.

 

And meditation is simply the easiest way to ALLOW and to Release resistance, towards your greater allowed coming back into alignment with your natural state of being in full alignment with the whole of all that you truely are being and becoming evermore in full joy, physical and non-physical in full harmony. 

 

So when you focus deeply unto your breath and you awareness is purely experiencing a singular focused awareness, you thus, leave behind all thoughts. And as you do so, you also leave behind all thoughts of resistance. And when you do so, you feel better, emotionally, primarily, first. As that is your indicator that you are entering more fully the state of allowance or entering the receiving mode, which feels good emotionally, meaning you are opening up and clearly receiving the stream of thought that is in full harmony and alignment and fuller greater allowed realisation with the perspective of your own soul, or greater non-physical consciousness or even the source of all creation. Inspired thought, perspective, in full alignment and harmony with the whole of all that you've become. Closing the gap between you and You. And that is unconditional, and also in benefit, infinite and eternal. Evermore here and now. Where all of existance exists in evermore being and becoming, for you, evermore.

 

And the purpose is to simply be all of that, in full joy, and live your life in full joy. And again, you don't have to do anything to allow that to happen. You just have to let go of the things, which DON'T allow it to happen. That is why those thoughts or perspectives in life, that we often practice out of habbit, that feel not so good, don't need to be healed or resolved. Because your perfect state of well-being, including everything that you can ever want to be do or have, YOU ALREADY ARE IT. You have already become it, and you are already right here and now, being and becoming the evermoreness of all of it evermore, here and now. As your greater non-physical consciousness. As you are inseperable from that (tho you can focus and expand upon self-contradictory  energetically resistant thought forms that pinch your connection off with all that you truely are, thereby feeling negative emotion, as long as you continue to focus on that thought out of alignment with all that you truely are being and becoming evermore). That is the reason why you feel emotion, always. As the relativity between you (physical) and You (greater non-physical consciousness as pure positive energy).

 

So whenever you experience anything that is less than absolutely the best of all that you are and know and have become and are being and becoming evermore. It helps you clarify your desire, to guides you to come back into full allowed realisation of all that that experience has to offer for you truely, of your full realisation of all of its full value for you evermore. You don't need to change the conditions of your life, anymore than you need to change the reflect in the mirror when you want the reflection to change, you simply change your state of being. But again, your state of being is already unconditionally perfect, so all you gotta do, is ALLOW your physical self, to come back into full alignment with your natural state of being, which is in full harmony and alignment with all that you truely are, physical and non-physical, both hand in hand and together in harmony and  co-blended alignment and convergance and synchronisity, co-creating greater allowed realisations of evermore being and becoming in evermore greater allowed realisations of evermore greater allowed realisations of greater freedoms and joy for you, as you, through you, from you, with you, evermore. 

 

You already contain it all, it's all a matter of energy motional alignment, and allowed realisation. This alignment happens through your focusing in alignment with it, by focusing in greater allowed alignment with it, by focusing on things which feel better for you emotionally, ongoingly, but also, focusing for the purpose of releasing all thought, as meditation, is much easier, to help you also then easily let go of all energetically resistant/contradictory thought patterns, which block your natural allowed realisation of full blown well-being and better things for you evermore, which then your natural state of well-being simply naturally happens or is naturally allowed to occur, or manifest, simply naturally, and effortlessly out of your essential allowed alignment with the whole of all that you've become and are being and becoming evermore here and now. Because if you don't think a thought that doesn't allow you to consciously receive the benefit of your greater knowing, of your greater non-physical consciousness, or your soul, that means, you are then capable of more fully realising true inspired thoughts, thoughts and perspective that allow your full realisation, inspired thoughts, inspired state of being and becoming, in full alignment with the whole of all that you truely are being and becoming evermore here and now. Where the whole of You always is for you! Evermore! For your very own individual self allowed of coming back into it full alignment with it. Which is why you feel every emotion, as your emotional guidance system, is all about the relativity between you and You.

 

You can receive much benefit by simply being willing to feel better emotionally, unconditionally, meaning not care so much about the conditions, which don't create themselves. They happen so through your energy motional being, as you are an energy motional being, of energy. But if those conditions are not fully realised by you, you don't enjoy them, because you are being out of alignment with the whole of all that you are, and you feel negative emotion, not because the conditions are bad! No! Because your realisation of them is out of harmony, and out of alignment with your true natural state of being, your core essential soul realisation of pure positive energy, of unconditional love, in full harmony and allignment with the Source of All Creation, of infinite and intelligence and eternal wisdom. So every emotion you feel, is about how you are flowing your energy now. Not about your conditions. It is about what you are doing with your own energy, of your own greater non-physical consciousness.

 

And if you think a thought, or strike up a perspective, that is out of harmony and out of alignment with your own greater non-physical consciousness, and all that it, or You, have truely become and come to know and realise, then you feel negative emotion, as the indicator of energy motional discord, between you and You. And to allow that condition to come back to full realisation, means you have to either change the perspective (which is difficult if you already have established an energy motional energetic thought pattern of resistance/contradiction), or simply let go of perceiving it completely. To come back into full alignment with your greater knowing, and then from that state of being in full inspiration, THEN perceive that thing, with full acces to your greater knowing, and come to appreciate the conditions fully, as is the point of your eternal journey of existance, to be your evermore joyous being and becoming evermore. 

 

The reason it is often for many people difficult to think their way to a perspective that feels better, is because they are thinking, from a state of being, that is out of harmony and alignment with their own greater knowing, where they don't feel good emotionally, indicating this state of being out of alignment with their own greater knowing. So the answers to their questions cannot be realised by them. Because the energy of a problem and solution are very different energies. And if you are being a question, you cannot allow the anwer, untill you shift your focus, to the answer and then feel better. So people look for answers all their life, not knowing, that if they simply focus on feeling better, then the answers TO ALL things they want to be do or have is allowed to be realised by them evermore!

 

As is often said, you cannot solve a problem from the state of being that created that problem. The reason is, because there is no problem. The problem is just a perspective that has not yet been allowed to come to full realisation, which can easily be done, by simply aligning with your greater non-physical consciousness, which is already evermore, unconditionally lovingly, flowing all answers to you evermore and all solutions for you and to you and through you evermore, as the WHOLE of ALL that YOU truely are being and becoming evermore. As a TOTAL being, of physical and non-physical, hand in hand. A total fully realised being. An enlightened, feeling good emotionally, energy motionally lighter, better feeling, more enjoyable, state of being in natural full allowed harmony and alignment with the whole of all that you truely are being and becoming evermore here and now. 

 

So rather, meditate, and reach for your natural state of being in full joy, and that being the indicator that you are then right here and now, in full joy, having thus fully entered the RECEIVING MODE of your very own greater non-physical consciousness. And then you can simply BE all the answers you seek evermore.

 

How do you know, how do you differentiate between a thought, thought by humans, of which every thought that has ever been thought, still exists. And a thought that is fully backed up by the source of all creation, and flowing in full alignment and support of and towards your evermore being and becoming evermore. Because there are many thoughts thought by humans which are in harmony and alignment with the source of all creation. But you know the difference, because you can FEEL the difference. 

 

And these fully realised thoughts, of Source Energy, are already flowing through you evermore, but if you flow them through energetically resistant/self contradictory thought patterns, they are not allowed to come to full realisation for you. And so you don't feel very good. So the only discipline that you will ever need to excersize, is the discipline to simply care about how you feel, emotionally, energy motionally. And be willing to feel better emotionally. And as you focus on any object of your focus/attention, and place and replace your awareness consistently upon it, and hold your awareness consistently upon your object of your focus, in that moment, you are meditating, and you are thus letting go of all thought. You are releasing all thought. And in doing so, you also release and let go of all self contradictory energetically resistant thought, and as you do so, you naturally will feel better.

 

And thus, you regain your clarity and also your emotional clarity and sensitivity, and thus this subtle realisation at first, of a thought of appreciation, a thought that feels good to you emotionally, it will be softly gently allowed to be more fully realised by you, by simply allowing it to be realised by you naturally effortlessly, by being willing to feel better, for the sole purpose of coming back into full realised alignment with the whole of all that you are. And as you allow those good feeling thoughts to come to greater allowed realisation for you, you continue to feel better and better, and your greater non-physical consciousness is flowed more fully through, as you are allowing yourself to receive it more fully consciously without contradicting it thus feeling very good and thus realising it evermore fully, your more fully allowed awareness and more fully allowed realisation of your very own greater non-physical consciousness of all that you truely have come to know and be and are being and becoming evermore fully here and now. Of all that you truely want to be do or have evermore, because you have become it and you ARE being and becoming the evermoreness of all of it evermore here and now.

 

And there is no better feeling in the world, then being in full harmony and alignment with the whole of all that you've become. And thus being in full allowed true knowing realisation of all that you truely want, evermore fully here and now. Because that is who you really are, and ment to be and become evermore here and now. That is why you also always are it and can never ever be disconnected from it evermore! Only temporarily pinch your fuller greater allowed realisation of all of it off for yourself temporarily, and thus not feeling so good. And when you then love that and appreciate that moment when you realise, you are thinking a thought that doesn't feel good, and you LOVE the coming to full blown realisation that it doesn't feel good, because your greater non-physical consciousness has a different perspective of it and about it. Then you praise every single emotion that you feel evermore! As your unconditional guidance system, of evermore greater allowed realisation of your evermore greater allowed being and becoming, of all the things you want to be do or have evermore. 

 

That doesn't mean you feel bad because those conditions are bad. It means you feel bad, because those conditions are not allowed to come to full realisation for you, BY YOU! So all that you need to do, is let go of whatever thought feels bad, and your natural allowed realisation is then more fully capable of being more fully allowed to be realised by you. That's really all there is to it. It's an act of letting go. An act of non-action, an action that cannot be done, but has to be allowed. A releasing of resistance. A letting go. And an allowing. An act of allowing. Wei wu wei, you do nothing and leave nothing undone.

 

As the greatest power in all of creation, that creates everything with the absolute least amount of effort, as the source of all creation, of source energy, the energy which creates worlds, of which you are INSEPERABLE evermore. Creates all of creation evermore, with absolute 0 effort, and full blown ever expanding joy evermore. As that is who you truely are. As ALL that you truely are being and becoming evermore. And to simply allow yourself to come naturally back into alignment with that, is simply indicated by your emotional feeling better. Releasing resistant/contradictory energetic thought patterns, and thus, naturally allowing your natural greater allowed realisation of your natural alignment with your natural state of being in full alignment with your very own greater non-physical consciousness, of pure positive energy, which holds and bees and becomes all that you want to be do or have evermore. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Everything

[Everything]

On 13-9-2019 at 5:36 PM, dwai said:

 

That is not entirely correct. When we sit with our breath, the breathing automatically elongates and even stops. This is a sign of a mind that has been both purified as well as become single-pointed. The purification and single-pointedness of the mind will continue to increase until there is total cessation of thoughts, with only a luminous clarity remaining. 

 

In other words, yes.

 

But to also understand why it happens that way. To clarify that our purpose in life is not, or the point in life is not to be singularly focused on the breath. It is simply that this is the way it is because when we singularly focus on any object of focus, we simply leave behind all thoughts of resistance, and thus, our energy motional being, NATURALLY effortlessly automatically comes back into full allowed alignment with the WHOLE of all that we are, flowing more freely through us, as our greater non-physical energy consciousness being of pure positive energy. So it is thus more fully capable by us to be more fully realised by us, as us, for us, through us, with us. As a fully aligned being, a fully totally realised being in full allowed harmony and alignment, of physical and non-physical, hand in hand together, synchronised, harmonized, co-blended, fully allowed to be and become in full joy evermore.

 

Because if we don't do anything that causes the resistance, meaning, we no longer think a thought of resistance, our greater thoughts of naturally more capable of fully realised thoughts of inspiration, and in full harmony and alignment with the Source of All Creation, as Source Energy, of the energy which creates worlds, is simply allowed to flow more fully through us, and we feel better, more clear minded, and thus we are also less tolerable to thoughts of resistance or discord. So our greater allowed realisation is naturally and effortlessly more easily and fully and more capably allowed to be realised by us.

 

Even when we feel fear, we are still flowing our true nature through us, but it is flowing through energetic contradictory thought patterns, and the greater the resistance the more intensely we feel that negative emotion. And through this allowance of negative emotion, ALL disease and ALL illness simply happens. And all negative life experience and all negative conditions. Because we are flowing out of harmony with, in discord, and contrary to, and against the ever abounding stream of well-being, that is the only stream of creation of existance being and becoming evermore in full harmony with the source of all creation, of ever expanding joy (indicating the natural full allowed alignment with the energy of all things being and becoming evermore).

 

That is simply how all of existance is being and becoming evermore, through the natural path of least resistance. So when you hold contradictory thought patterns, you allow less of your true nature to flow more fully and freely through you. And the result is similar, to choking yourself, your face would become blue. But your true nature is a subtle, high frequency, of pure positive energy, that your body translates as joy, as your most sophisticated sense of translating energy in motion into the sense of emotion, when you allow it to flow fully and freely through you without resistance, without contradiction. 

 

So this art of allowing, our greater nature to be more fully realised by us here and now, is taught through meditation, and techniques of breathing, which simply help us understand how non-physical energy works, and how we thus create every experience in our life, through this non-physical energy, of source energy, that is who we truely are being and becoming evermore. 

 

We can choose to flow our true nature through us in contradiction with itself, with yourself, with ourselves. And then we feel that discord as negative emotion. And thus, this indicates, you are "pinching" yourself off, from your true nature and natural greater allowed realisation.

 

So yes, meditation is the most easy and practical and most universally applicable and easy way to simply come back into allignment with our natural full allowed realisation. So that we can be all that we truely are, here in life, with the fullness of all that we truely are, being and becoming here fully physically in this physical time-space reality, for the joy of our evermore being and becoming, right here and now. For whatever we want to be do or have. For we truely are free to be do or have whatever want.

 

But that realisation, cannot be allowed to be realised by us, and then also feel negative emotion at the same time. That's simply impossible. Because true realisation of pure desire, of true knowing, that is uncontradicted, pure thought, fully realised thought, in full harmony and alignment with your greater non-physical consciousness of pure positive energy, that simply feels very good. Always. 

 

And so just like when you feel negative emotion, or you choke your self and your face becomes blue, you don't need to create positive emotion, rather release resistance, stop the choking, and allow the allowance, letting go contradictory thought, by focusing/meditating, to release all thought and thus also release all contradictory thought, and so the choking is let go of, and thus natural color returns to your face.

 

In the same way, when you don't focus in contradiction with your self, on energetic thoughts of resistance, which then expand into energetic thought patterns of resistance, and negative emotion, and negative life experiences, then you let go of the self contradictory energy, and in the same way your natural color would return to your face, you feel better emotionally. You feel emotional relief, meaning, you are succesfully meditating, you are feeling better, you are allowing your true nature to flow more fully through you, because you no longer focus on those energetically resistant/self contradictory thought patterns, and so, they are left behind. They simply vanish. you are purely aware of your object of focus in the here and now. And thus you have no other awareness or experience, except purely your object of focus. This means, your natural state of allowance, is simply naturally allowed again effortlessly. UNTILL you think a thought of contradiction and discord, and then you feel negative emotion as your flawless emotional guidance system, meaning you are in a sense energetically choking yourself again. Pinching your natural connection with and to and from your greater non-physical consciousness. As the whole of all that you truely are being and becoming evermore.

 

So you meditate to enter the receiving mode. Just like you simply let yourself breath, and you receive oxigen. You meditate, to allow yourself to receive FULLY the benefit of your greater non-physical consciousness. And the more fully you allow yourself to flow your greater non-physical consciousness through you more freely, without contradiction, the better you feel. 

 

And that is basically all and anything every single religion or spiritual teaching has always been about. To come back to full realisation. With the whole of all that we truely are being and becoming evermore. In full allowed harmony and alignment with all of existance. In full allowed realisation of our true nature of being and becoming evermore here and now. In everything that feels like peace and better evermore. In everything that feels good/better to us emotionally, because it is more compatible with our true nature of being and becoming evermore here and now.

 

And because you will always become more, we don't need to worry about encountering a perspective of creation that is out of harmony with our true nature of being and becoming evermore. Because we feel our unconditional emotional guidance system, always. And so we can always easily and effortlessly and joyously come back into full alignment with the whole of all that we've become, that also that condition helped us come to realise for ourselves of something we want! OF a new birth of a new realisation, of a better creation, being and becoming evermore! MORE! AND MORE! EVERMORE! A new desire. Of a greater allowed realisation.

 

And so we expand evermore as all of creation expands evermore here and now and the source of all creation expands evermore here and now, with us, and FOR US! Unconditionally! Meaning, energetically, at the very source of all creation! Becomes fully all that we have asked for, and is being and becoming the evermoreness of it evermore here and now. All that we want. And calls us towards it evermore, here and now. And that is why we feel emotion, as the relativity between our physical and our greater non-physical consciousness.

 

For our very own individual satisfaction, of coming to full realisation of all that we truely want to be do or have evermore, here and now. Fully guided, unconditionally and evermore through the path of least resistance, evermore, to all that we want to be do or have evermore. That we simply allow for ourselves, by feeling better, focusing on what we truely want, thus feeling very good. And thus being in full allowed alignment with our full allowed effortless ability to allow ourselves to receive FULLY the FULL coming to FULL realisation of all that we TRUELY want to be do or have evermore, in evermore greater allowed realisation of our evermore greater allowed being and becoming of joy and freedom evermore. 

 

Simply for the joy that is the eternal journey of existance being and becoming evermore. Because we are loved unconditionally. And supported unconditionally. In all that we want to be do or have evermore. Meaning, pure realised desire. Purely fully flowed realisation, uncontradicted realisation of purely flowed and allowed to be realised by us desire. Of true knowing, of true joy. Of true love. Of true freedom. How do we know? We know, because we can feel the knowing of it. We can feel it, and so we can allow it to come to full realisation for us. Through our flawless emotional guidance system, that allows us to naturally and effortlessly come back to full realisation evermore. Of feeling better. Ongoingly, untill we do flow in harmony with our natural ability to come to evermore fuller and greater allowed realisation of all that we truely are being and becoming evermore. Feeling very good thus then.

 

We want it, because our greater non-physical consciousness has already become it, instantly, it's not even our job to create that desire, we do it automatically. Our non-physical consciousness, and the source of all creation, becomes all that we want to be do or have, energetically, evermore, and so all things that are of that and likeness to it is drawn to it evermore, and so it is and becomes evermore, FOR US, for WE CREATED IT, we co-created it with the source of all creation. We are the very reason that that desire has come into being and becoming evermore, and so it is being and becoming evermore, and so we just have to release resistance and allow ourselves to naturally flow with our own creation!

 

We just feel our way into alignment with our very own full blown realisation of all that we truely want to do, be or have evermore.  And all things naturally come back into full alignment and realisation for us. Because we are coming back into alignment with all that we've truely become. So also, to realise, you can simply just know you will always want to feel better. You will always want to feel good. And so feeling good, is also the only job of your physical being. Emotionally feeling good. That is the only discipline. To simply allow yourself to feel better. That's it. The rest, naturally happens, through the path of least resistance. Your natural realisation of all that you want to be do or have, simply naturally flows out of this natural allowed alignment with the whole of all that you've become and are being and becoming evermore.

 

For again, we exist simply for the joy of our evermore being and becoming. And through that alone comes all realisation, all answers to all questions for every single individual, uniquely, and individually and fully capably to come to fuller greater allowed realisation evermore of all that they truely want to be do or have evermore, because they think they will feel better in the having, being or doing of that. And then to realise that feeling good emotionally, is the path of least resistance, is indicating the alignment with and towards the allowing all that you want to be do or have evermore. Unconditional alignment. Unconditional love. Simply feeling good for the purpose that it feels good because that is why you exist to begin with.

 

And meditation is the easiest way to do that, to allow that, to let go and allow, to do the non-action of letting go and allowing, our natural coming back into alignment with our greater non-physical consciousness. Focusing on any object of focus that doesn't encourage thought, thus leaving behind thoughts of discord, and thus feeling better emotionally. And thus feeling very good emotionally, and thus entering the receiving mode, and thus receiving evermore full blown realisation of evermore allowed to realise and freely uncontradicted flow of evermore inspiration evermore and allowed being and becoming, in full harmony with the source of all creation, and our very own greater non-physical consciousness, converging fully in the here and now, with us and for us and through us, of fully realised joy. Of fully allowed realisation of being and becoming evermore.

 

That is so easy, that you infact cannot even do it. It is an act of non-action. Wei wu wei. Hence you meditate, and you allow it. By allowing yourself to enjoy the good feeling. Or meditate untill you do feel better, and continue to walk that unconditional energy motional journey, of coming into greater allowed alignment with the whole of all that you truely are flowing more fully and freely through you, uncontradicted, more fully realised, more fully feeling better, more fully feeling good, more fully here and now. Releasing resistant contradictory perspective, Simply for the joy, of your evermore being and becoming evermore. Seeing the world through the eyes of the source of all creation, in full allowed alignment with and realisation of your greater non-physical consciousness. Being inspired in spiraling inspirations.

 

Unconditionally, capable,  under any and all conditions, regardless of any and all conditions. Capable of allowing any and all conditions to come to full realisation for you, by you, through you, as you, with you. Always, evermore fully here and now. Simply for the joy of your evemore fully and freely allowed being and becoming evermore.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Everything

[markern]

Thanks a lot for the replies everyone. Much appreciated! I will get back to this thread in a day or two.

[Sebastian]

On 9/15/2019 at 6:02 PM, freeform said:

1. Jing - Quiet

2. Shen - Deep

3. Yu - At Ease

4. Huan - Slow

5. Mian - Cotton Soft

 

Thanks for sharing your perspective on breathing Freeform... I found it very interesting. Would you mind describing the 5 stages in more detail, for inspiration mostly, and also to be exhaustive with this thread ? You mentioned there were signs. Also, for those that don't know, and since this is relevant to this thread, Freeform shared some breathing instructions with Ting here... I thought they were great.

 

 

I can't contribute too much to this thread, but I was told by one of my teachers that the practice of listening to pauses in between breaths is what the Buddha taught his son Rahula. With this understanding

 

In-breath     out-breath    pause/rest

 

yang                yin             non-conceptual awareness

 

I haven't practiced this perspective enough to contribute meaningfully to this thread. But mechanically, and energetically there does seem to be a complete relaxing or reset of tension to change the mode of breathing, between the in and out breath.

 

When the OP wrote that his pauses increased, I didn't see that as conflicting with Freeform's advice, unless he imposed the mind on the silence by stretching it somehow. I prefer the non-doing approach of Ting and Freeform's approach, but even in non-doing, I think we all have that switch to neutral gear between the in and out-breath. I think it's significant, especially because I can't grasp it. You can grasp everything else in your Ting, almost like engineering work - German Bosh style - but there is still that unknown agent, like the spoke of the wheel that is allowing everything else to work.

 

That's where I think Buddha was coming from, but it's hard to stay... I need to practice more to know.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Sebastian
Reason for edit: I was shaving with the razor in front of the mirror while typing and seriously injured myself. I had to mop up the blood and edit the thread afterwards.

[freeform]

On 21/09/2019 at 10:40 AM, Sebastian said:

Would you mind describing the 5 stages in more detail

 

I will - I'm just in a slightly busy period at the moment.