what is a person?

[Oolong Rabbit]

Should one not use the mind in exploration?

 

Its a fine line. Philosophy on the one hand, a never ending stream of words, referring to other words. On the other hand we have sleep. This is about as close as we can get to no thoughts.

 

I think the mind is a useful tool to a certain extent... For example, I can get in my car and drive to the beach, but to go swimming I have to get out of my car and walk down to the water. I would also disagree with sleep being as close as we can get to 'no thoughts' Not that I am a meditation master by any means, but emptying your mind during meditation is much different than sleeping.

 

I find that there is a third option, which is natural curiosity. This natural curiosity may express itself with a question, or with a dropping of assumptions and simply looking. Trying to suppress natural curiosity is tying our hands behind our backs. Natural curiosity is actually the most powerful thing that we have.

 

Natural curiosity is great in so far as it can lead you towards the path, but I think that it can only take you so far. To tread upon the path, you have to let go of the curiosity in my humble opinion.

 

If someone can ask a question in all sincerity, without expecting a definite answer, they are doing more to walk their path than someone who meditates for two hours every day in nirvakalpa samadhi.

 

If we don't have the stability to stay with what the questions opens up, then it cannot work its magic, however. So there are two sides to every coin.

 

Not sure I follow. Can you elaborate? Specifically how someone asking a question without expecting an answer is more profound than 2 hrs a day of nirvakalpa samadhi. I think you are comparing apples and oranges, but I gotta lean towards the guy who can do the 2 hrs/day nirvakalpa samadhi

[doc benway]

Have you ever heard of the thud experiement?

Brilliant experiment but with a fatal flaw - they should have prepared some sort of safety net to prevent the prolonged hospitalization!

Thanks for posting that.

[Todd]

What happens in deep sleep? Our world appears to disappear. We have no recollection of any thought process (this is deep sleep.. not dreaming sleep). This is a product of the stilling of thoughts. It is natural so we don't make much of it, but when we don't get this sleep, we begin to notice the power that it has.

 

Reaching such a state through meditation is freeing, since it reveals a polarity of consciousness, and it probably has some other functions which I can't speak to with any degree of authority. I haven't spent 2 hours per day in nirvakalpa samadhi. In this I am going more on stories. Such as Buddha mastering the 8th Jhana, being told that that was the highest state, but knowing within himself that his search was for something else. Or my teacher telling me that we all reach nirvakalpa samadhi in our sleep. We just don't know it, or know that we know it.

 

To reach it in meditation is an opportunity to recognize that though there is this seeming cessation, that there is something that is aware of that cessation.

 

This noticing can only happen through natural curiosity. Imagine what would have happened to the Buddha's story if he had not had this natural curiosity. He could have just practiced the 8th Jhana until he died. Instead, he continued his search.

 

In this perspective, natural curiosity IS the path. Everything else is scenery.

 

Thats not to say that achieving nirvakalpa samadhi cannot be a manifestation of natural curiosity, and hence, quite vital. If we abandon natural curiosity for the sense of peace that arises in that state, then we have lost the path, however.

[Lotus Flower]

Have you ever heard of the thud experiement?

 

hqaptRYjhq4

It says you should beware the monks with a statue that is missing a hand

 

 

I have heard of the thud experiment. I actually have a copy of the study in front of me. There are MANY problems with the you tube video as a matter of fact. Some of things are true, but not all. The way the patients were admitted is almost all true, they all said they were hearing voices that said, "empty", "hollow", and "thud" After they were admitted they did act normal again. They were administered psychotropic drugs, but did not take any of them. Their stay ranged from 7-52 days with an average of 19 days.

The most interesting thing about the experiment (in my opinion) was that the patients who WERE insane know that the pseudopatients were not insane. They would often tell the pseudopatients and the staff this.

So, Psychiatry does have its problems and we in the field do admit it. I am not studying Psychiatry though, so I guess I am better off. There is a difference between Psychiatry and Psychology. In Psychology, we do also admit that we certainly do NOT have the all of the answers and are still looking.

The same as anything we may follow at this time. There is no tangible truth in any of it, yet we all have our paths that we will follow.

 

 

It says you should beware the monks with a statue that is missing a hand

 

If anyone finds the monk, please let me know so I can explain why I have the hand LOL

 

I am enslaved, trapped, bound to this world. My purpose in this life is to break free, and never return.

 

I am not enlightened, of that I am certain.

 

I will be reborn again if I died today, of that I am also certain.

 

The purpose of my life is to awaken, and achieve liberation.

 

So, you are becoming awakened and achieving liberation in this life...may I ask how?

What is your path?

[doc benway]

I don't doubt this no, I am certain we are all one. Perhaps I am just delusional though.

 

 

I am enslaved, trapped, bound to this world. My purpose in this life is to break free, and never return.

 

I am not enlightened, of that I am certain.

 

I will be reborn again if I died today, of that I am also certain.

 

The purpose of my life is to awaken, and achieve liberation.

This post started as a very brief response and took on a life of it's own - for some reason I am compelled to mention this as a preface...

 

 

Hmmm, there are things at odds here.

I completely agree with your first statement about non-duality. It is not an intellectual idea or conclusion, it is an absolute certainty for me as well. Perhaps we're both deluded, I'm OK with that.

 

The thing that I'm struggling with is this, I'll try to express it. Unfortunately, words always sound so presumptuous, arrogant, rehearsed, artificial but sometimes you've just got to say, fuck it!

 

There is no duality, there is not two. Notice that the Hindus do not say there is one or we are one. They say that there are not two. THis is significant.

That which is, is not born, does not die, but is and is not. It is existence and non-existence. It is not two.

We, as organic creatures, are encased in a bag of skin and equipped with sensory organs that constantly reinforce a sense of separation from the environment and each other. That separation is constantly reinforced by each of us and our conditioning and social conventions. It starts with early childhood and is very difficult to see through.

 

We are no more separate from the environment than a whirlpool from the stream or a wave from the ocean. We cannot possibly exist without our environment nor does our environment exist without us. Without our miraculous sensory apparatus, the environment is nothing more than various configurations of electromagnetic waves. Everything is not form and substance, not stuff, but relationship. There are no particles of stuff in the universe, only waves. We only perceive stuff and particles due to the particular nature and tuning of our sensory organs.

 

You recognize this, you know this, so how much more awake can you be?

It is not a matter of being awake or enlightened or not either.

THere is the thought that what is (and is not), is not enough.

There is desire that demands more. To transcend the endless cycle of life and death and the joy and suffering.

That is human nature combined with conditioning, that is the drive which feeds and clothes us but also makes us suffer. The need to become that which we are not. When there is no longer attachment to the desire to transcend, then there is freedom to simply be. And what a marvelous, miraculous existence it can be, and what a horrible painful existence it can be. One cannot exist without the other. They arise mutually, give meaning and substance to each other. Just as life and death, existence and non-existence arise mutually, they are not two, they are non-dual.

 

When this organism encased in a bag of skin and it's associated knowledge, memories, thoughts, desires, conditioning, etc... dies, then this particular collection of knowledge, memories, etc... is no longer in existence but 'that which is', remains. Another body is born and again is blessed with the spark of consciousness if you will, or awareness, and it then goes on to become conditioned and fills with all the thoughts, memories, and so on, over time because time is thought. And it is conditioned to want and need and try to become that which it is not. And eventually, in some, a spark ignites that wants to transcend everything but it is just a thought, like the one that wants anything else, only it's paticularly persistent because what it wants can never be satisfied until death. It wants to know what lies beyond death, the great mystery, the meaning of life. But nothing lies beyond death. Death is just what is not life. The great mystery is the unanswere question. When answered, it is no longer mystery. But there can never be a state where the human brain and the limited nature of thought (which is simply the action of knowlege and memory, fear and desire) can answer all questions, so there will always be the great mystery.

 

So the desire is there to transcend, so be it. Sit with it and go into it very deeply. Why is it there? What can you learn from it? What is it telling you about you? about everything around? This is why the question unanswered is more important than meditation, I think. Meditation presupposes the answer, the answer is to be found through meditation, why else do it? But the question alone makes no suppositions. It is alive! Answers are dead! Being with the question is very valuable. If you go into that particular desire, to transcend, very deeply, what happens to it? I don't know the answer and I'm not looking for an answer from anyone. It is for each of us to find out for ourselves.

 

If that is what is (and perhaps it's not and I'm totally full of shit - that's OK too), what is it to awaken?

What is liberation?

Is there a state other than existence and non-existence?

Other than that which is?

If so, is that not a duality?

I say you ARE awake, you ARE enlightened, you just don't recognize it because of conditioning and habit.

 

 

 

I'll take a stab at the original question:

What is a person?

A person is an organic creature that is blessed with self awareness. That self awareness is a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing because it is simply a way in which the universe becomes aware of itself and has an opportunity to revel in it's own mystery and beauty. It is a curse insofar as it is subject to the conditioning of millenia of social convention which causes it to forget it's true nature and leads to profound fear, desire, and suffering.

[Oolong Rabbit]

What happens in deep sleep? Our world appears to disappear. We have no recollection of any thought process (this is deep sleep.. not dreaming sleep). This is a product of the stilling of thoughts. It is natural so we don't make much of it, but when we don't get this sleep, we begin to notice the power that it has.

You have made me curious. I am googling the brainwaves in sleep vs meditation :-).

Reaching such a state through meditation is freeing, since it reveals a polarity of consciousness, and it probably has some other functions which I can't speak to with any degree of authority. I haven't spent 2 hours per day in nirvakalpa samadhi. In this I am going more on stories. Such as Buddha mastering the 8th Jhana, being told that that was the highest state, but knowing within himself that his search was for something else. Or my teacher telling me that we all reach nirvakalpa samadhi in our sleep. We just don't know it, or know that we know it.

 

To reach it in meditation is an opportunity to recognize that though there is this seeming cessation, that there is something that is aware of that cessation.

 

Yes but you only recognize the cessation after the fact.

 

This noticing can only happen through natural curiosity. Imagine what would have happened to the Buddha's story if he had not had this natural curiosity. He could have just practiced the 8th Jhana until he died. Instead, he continued his search.

 

In this perspective, natural curiosity IS the path. Everything else is scenery.

 

Sorry Todd, I still just see the curiosity as a vehicle or a tool to bring one to the path. Try entering meditation and focus on how curious you are about what's going on, and I am willing to bet your meditation will not be very deep. Of course some meditations like Zen use natural curiosity as a tool within the meditation, but again it's a means, not an end.

 

Thats not to say that achieving nirvakalpa samadhi cannot be a manifestation of natural curiosity, and hence, quite vital. If we abandon natural curiosity for the sense of peace that arises in that state, then we have lost the path, however.

 

Tell you what Todd, you take the path of natural curiosity, and I will stick to meditation. Whoever reaches enlightenment first gets a Coke on the runner up

[doc benway]

What happens in deep sleep? Our world appears to disappear. We have no recollection of any thought process (this is deep sleep.. not dreaming sleep). This is a product of the stilling of thoughts. It is natural so we don't make much of it, but when we don't get this sleep, we begin to notice the power that it has.

 

Reaching such a state through meditation is freeing, since it reveals a polarity of consciousness, and it probably has some other functions which I can't speak to with any degree of authority. I haven't spent 2 hours per day in nirvakalpa samadhi. In this I am going more on stories. Such as Buddha mastering the 8th Jhana, being told that that was the highest state, but knowing within himself that his search was for something else. Or my teacher telling me that we all reach nirvakalpa samadhi in our sleep. We just don't know it, or know that we know it.

 

To reach it in meditation is an opportunity to recognize that though there is this seeming cessation, that there is something that is aware of that cessation.

 

This noticing can only happen through natural curiosity. Imagine what would have happened to the Buddha's story if he had not had this natural curiosity. He could have just practiced the 8th Jhana until he died. Instead, he continued his search.

 

In this perspective, natural curiosity IS the path. Everything else is scenery.

 

Thats not to say that achieving nirvakalpa samadhi cannot be a manifestation of natural curiosity, and hence, quite vital. If we abandon natural curiosity for the sense of peace that arises in that state, then we have lost the path, however.

Todd,

Are you willing to share what it is that you practice and with whom?

I am always impressed with your insights and presentation.

 

Tell you what Todd, you take the path of natural curiosity, and I will stick to meditation. Whoever reaches enlightenment first gets a Coke on the runner up

AHHH! This is a scam!

The one who reaches enlightenment first knows that both will enjoy the Coke equally!

[Oolong Rabbit]

they all said they were hearing voices that said, "empty", "hollow", and "thud"

 

Empty? Hollow? Jeez, so half the Taobums probably would have been commited!

 

So, Psychiatry does have its problems and we in the field do admit it. I am not studying Psychiatry though, so I guess I am better off. There is a difference between Psychiatry and Psychology. In Psychology, we do also admit that we certainly do NOT have the all of the answers and are still looking.

 

I guess my issue with psychology has always been that it's not really a science, but tries to pass itself off as one. I am not sure about the United States, but psychology in Canada is part of the arts program. I mean if you want to study the brain using scientific methods, study neuroscience. This abstract metaphysical concept of the "psyche", well I am just not so sure that you can adequately study it using empirical tools. Anyhow, I will shut up about it now .

 

BTW, see what happens when you try to make a brief comment about mental masterbation on Taobums? You get sucked into the intellectual maelstrom.

 

AHHH! This is a scam!

The one who reaches enlightenment first knows that both will enjoy the Coke equally!

 

Haha

[Todd]

 

Yes but you only recognize the cessation after the fact.

 

 

 

How do you know this?

 

I am suggesting that there is something that registers everything, and the thing that is not aware when there is no thought, might not be so solid after all.

 

I am not here to convince you, since we all find this out in our own way.

 

If your goal is to reach a state, then meditation is wonderful means. What I am pointing toward is what you are. You already are it. So am I. So who wins the Coke?

 

(And I'm not saying, don't meditate!)

[Todd]

Xuesheng,

 

Thank you. I study with Adyashanti. Also Mukti and Loch Kelly, who filled in for Adya on a retreat during his sabbatical to recover from Bell's Palsy. I wouldn't really call it studying though. Exploring is a better word.

 

My practice? Nothing fixed. I have consistently stood or sat for 5 or so years. Right now I am pausing that... so nothing fixed. Natural curiosity?

Edited March 2, 2008 by Todd

[Lotus Flower]

Empty? Hollow? Jeez, so half the Taobums probably would have been commited!

I guess my issue with psychology has always been that it's not really a science, but tries to pass itself off as one. I am not sure about the United States, but psychology in Canada is part of the arts program. I mean if you want to study the brain using scientific methods, study neuroscience. This abstract metaphysical concept of the "psyche", well I am just not so sure that you can adequately study it using empirical tools. Anyhow, I will shut up about it now .

 

BTW, see what happens when you try to make a brief comment about mental masterbation on Taobums? You get sucked into the intellectual maelstrom.

Haha

 

Sad, that if you say you hear voices stating certain things you are deemed schizophrenic...

 

I agree with you that the US does try to pass off the art of Psychology as a science. They try to use science to back up their beliefs, but that certainly does not happen all the time. There are so many contradictions in their studies because it certainly is an art.

 

Mental Health Counseling is an art...talk therapy that many people do not believe in either.

 

Yes, you got sucked in...and I must take pride in that because like I said...I thrive off this hee hee

[林愛偉]

I have heard of the thud experiment. I actually have a copy of the study in front of me. There are MANY problems with the you tube video as a matter of fact. Some of things are true, but not all. The way the patients were admitted is almost all true, they all said they were hearing voices that said, "empty", "hollow", and "thud" After they were admitted they did act normal again. They were administered psychotropic drugs, but did not take any of them. Their stay ranged from 7-52 days with an average of 19 days.

The most interesting thing about the experiment (in my opinion) was that the patients who WERE insane know that the pseudopatients were not insane. They would often tell the pseudopatients and the staff this.

So, Psychiatry does have its problems and we in the field do admit it. I am not studying Psychiatry though, so I guess I am better off. There is a difference between Psychiatry and Psychology. In Psychology, we do also admit that we certainly do NOT have the all of the answers and are still looking.

The same as anything we may follow at this time. There is no tangible truth in any of it, yet we all have our paths that we will follow.

If anyone finds the monk, please let me know so I can explain why I have the hand LOL

So, you are becoming awakened and achieving liberation in this life...may I ask how?

What is your path?

 

 

 

I like where ths is going:

 

http://www.livevideo.com/video/ConspiracyC...e-no-cures.aspx

 

Its called , "Psychiatry, No Science, No Cures.

 

ENJOY!

 

Peace,

Lin

[mwight]

Should one not use the mind in exploration?

 

Its a fine line. Philosophy on the one hand, a never ending stream of words, referring to other words. On the other hand we have sleep. This is about as close as we can get to no thoughts.

 

I find that there is a third option, which is natural curiosity. This natural curiosity may express itself with a question, or with a dropping of assumptions and simply looking. Trying to suppress natural curiosity is tying our hands behind our backs. Natural curiosity is actually the most powerful thing that we have.

 

If someone can ask a question in all sincerity, without expecting a definite answer, they are doing more to walk their path than someone who meditates for two hours every day in nirvakalpa samadhi.

 

If we don't have the stability to stay with what the questions opens up, then it cannot work its magic, however. So there are two sides to every coin.

 

 

Todd have you ever read Jed McKenna's: Spiritual Enlightenment THE DAMNEDEST THING?

 

I highly recommend you get it if possible, I think you would love what that man has to say.

I believe it is available on audio book on a torrent somewhere if you search for it.

Edited March 2, 2008 by mwight

[Todd]

Todd have you ever read Jed McKenna's: Spiritual Enlightenment THE DAMNEDEST THING?

 

I highly recommend you get it if possible, I think you would love what that man has to say.

I believe it is available on audio book on a torrent somewhere if you search for it.

 

Yeah, I read it over a year ago. I also read its sequel, though not the last in the series. My roommate at the time had them.

 

I enjoyed them a lot. I became interested in this Jed McKenna character, and when I looked into it, the story began to seem more and more like fiction. Thats not surprising since one of the qualities of an enlightened being on his list (assuming I remember correctly) is to use untruth in order to teach.

 

If I come across the last book, I might read it.

 

Edit: I especially liked the way he pointed to a thread of realization in America, pre-hinduism, pre-buddhism, pre-taoism. I helps to see that this is a human thing, even if it doesn't take off in as obvious ways.

Edited March 2, 2008 by Todd

[Oolong Rabbit]

How do you know this?

 

I am suggesting that there is something that registers everything, and the thing that is not aware when there is no thought, might not be so solid after all.

 

I am not here to convince you, since we all find this out in our own way.

 

If your goal is to reach a state, then meditation is wonderful means. What I am pointing toward is what you are. You already are it. So am I. So who wins the Coke?

 

(And I'm not saying, don't meditate!)

 

Hi Todd,

 

Well good point, and to be honest I can't really answer. I guess I was operating under the assumption that when 'time' seems to disappear during meditation that the mind was still and just kind of stops. Now you have got me reconsidering it. Again, I am by no means greatly skilled at meditation, and I can't speak on some of the deeper levels because I probably haven't even touched them.

 

This natural curiosity you describe seems similar to some of the taoist concepts of being constantly aware, but I don't know if they would go so far as to call it a 'curiosity'. My understanding is that this is achieved by lessening the clutter in the mind to the point of emptiness. Once the mind has emptied you have no buffer between yourself and the tao. You don't think, you just act.

 

Here's my question, can 'curiosity' be seperated from the ego?

[Lotus Flower]

I like where ths is going:

 

http://www.livevideo.com/video/ConspiracyC...e-no-cures.aspx

 

Its called , "Psychiatry, No Science, No Cures.

 

ENJOY!

 

Peace,

Lin

 

It is VERY true! I admit this from my perspective of a Counseling standpoint. There are many people that will admit this. One of my professors who has a PhD in Psychology will admit this also. There is not a problem with admitting this. The problem is that the way in which the media will portray this.

The truth is just as Oolong Rabbit said, it is an art not a science. The problem is that they are trying to push an art into the Medical Model. I don't know how many people know about the medical model but that is all about the disease. Mental illness is not a disease though. That is the problem. They are trying to fit the square peg into the round hole.

My profession is Counseling which has NOTHING to do with prescription drugs. It is talk therapy, which other have a problem with also. In my opinion, if someone needs someone to speak to in a guided manner, that is my profession. It is not what many think though. It is not the Freudian couch scenario. It is controversial just as there are many things on this forum controversial.

It is what I will say again, What is the path you choose? Is there tangible truth? No--just as in psychiatry, counseling, psychology.

As I said, there is a difference in psychiatry, counseling and psychology. People often mistake them and interchange these even though there are distinct differences.

[Todd]

 

This natural curiosity you describe seems similar to some of the taoist concepts of being constantly aware, but I don't know if they would go so far as to call it a 'curiosity'. My understanding is that this is achieved by lessening the clutter in the mind to the point of emptiness. Once the mind has emptied you have no buffer between yourself and the tao. You don't think, you just act.

 

Here's my question, can 'curiosity' be seperated from the ego?

 

Yeah, curiosity is just a word. I use it because it is something that we can all relate to. That is useful, because truth is something that we can all relate to, even if we do not know it. We might say that curiosity is what remains when the mind is stilled, but it is important to realize that it is also here, now. It actually drives us. It is not separate from our day to day drives. It is merely filtered through assumptions and conditioning, but there is a pure curiosity that does not refer to the self, or ego, so much. This is what operates in a child who expresses natural wonder, or in us whenever we aren't thinking about things in a fixed way.

 

When we realize that it is present and available, we can begin to look for and notice it. There are other paths to this, and I can't say which is right. They all have their traps, such as the ego taking the question and trying to use it to get something. Such as the ego trying to assume the stance of curiosity. All of that has a certain energy, but if we let it settle down, what is flowing through us?

[Celtic Dragon]

[de_paradise]

Facinating conversations to ponder. Interesting how a child's curiosity and wonder is that wide eyed look that is making patterns of the outside world in order to conceptualize it and differentiate things; whereas a Taoist's curiousity is the same energy but towards the opposite direction: to feel the oneness and patternlessness. They are zigging, and we are zagging.

 

So I think we can refine the word curiosity, that, in Buddhist terms, a fundamental part of vicara and vitarka, that which can lead to prajna wisdom. Therefore curiosity is hugely important, yet the term carries too much baggage of samsaric associations.

 

I speculate that what might be the raffination is something like the-universe-searching-to-evolve-ness. A species presumably evolves after many painstaking processes of trial and error, but something is driving this species to evolve, us to evolve, the universe to evolve. This word would be clearly void of ego. Yet it contains the propulsion force that would subsequently be translated in our minds as curiosity.

 

 

 

Yeah, curiosity is just a word. I use it because it is something that we can all relate to. That is useful, because truth is something that we can all relate to, even if we do not know it. We might say that curiosity is what remains when the mind is stilled, but it is important to realize that it is also here, now. It actually drives us. It is not separate from our day to day drives. It is merely filtered through assumptions and conditioning, but there is a pure curiosity that does not refer to the self, or ego, so much. This is what operates in a child who expresses natural wonder, or in us whenever we aren't thinking about things in a fixed way.

 

When we realize that it is present and available, we can begin to look for and notice it. There are other paths to this, and I can't say which is right. They all have their traps, such as the ego taking the question and trying to use it to get something. Such as the ego trying to assume the stance of curiosity. All of that has a certain energy, but if we let it settle down, what is flowing through us?

[Cameron]

[Todd]

As long as we are doing the quoting thing--

 

"Form is emptiness; emptiness is form; form is not other than emptiness; emptiness is not other than form."

 

--The Heart Sutra

 

Are you saying that what is being referred to there is an illusion?

Edited March 3, 2008 by Todd

[Cameron]

Todd,

 

Who are asking the question to?

[Todd]

Actually, it was addressed to you, but you can ignore it. I think I am going to retreat from posting for a bit. There is a little too much attack and defend in me, and its not fun.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Todd

[Cameron]

Ok.

 

[doc benway]

Actually, it was addressed to you, but you can ignore it. I think I am going to retreat from posting for a bit. There is a little too much attack and defend in me, and its not fun.

If you come across this reply at some point Todd, are you familiar with Steven Harrison's work?

I just picked up his book "The Question to Life's Answers" and if you're in the reading mood, I think you would appreciate his perspective regarding the importance of the question, inquiry, curiosity...