Daoist way to leave porn addiction?

[Apech]

54 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I was pretty sure of that...

 

Then my teacher explained how the Ming of two people intertwines as a result of sexual union.

 

I assume he then did something 'behind the scenes' - because over the period of a couple of weeks, during my meditation and in dreams, these karmic causalities slowly revealed themselves. I didn't realise it at first - because I thought I'd somehow gotten mixed up and entered someone else's mind-stream... but it became obvious that this was now my karmic 'baggage' to clear as a result of past sexual relations.

 

Of course, intertwining of Ming is not necessarily bad. And makes little difference if you're not deep into a spiritual practice... But if you are on a spiritual path - then it's worth bearing in mind that sexual union adds to your karma. And for women - they not only receive these karmic entanglements, but they also take in the more 'surface' pathogenic information from their partners. (men do too... but to a much lesser extent)

 

In regards to porn - it has a lot more to do with your mind and your neurochemistry. The reason porn aficionados tend towards more extreme porn over the course of their hobby is very similar to why drug addicts tend toward stronger drugs or larger doses over time... it's just a case of needing a more intense inner reaction to receive the same level of thrill.

 

There's nothing wrong with porn in and of itself. It's just counter-spiritual... just as any attachment is - like for example an extreme attachment to sports or a political view or even to your possessions. It's not the thing itself - but similar to what dmattwads says - it's the attachment... and anything that plays to your base desires (power, survival, social standing, sex) has a particularly "sticky" and inflammatory nature.

 

Any more information on this ming entanglement????

 

 

[freeform]

34 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Any more information on this ming entanglement????

 

 

 

Ming from a Daoist perspective is a really complex field of study. My teacher who's achieved a kind of 'causal insight' has an immediate understanding of Ming and of what each event or quality in one's nature is caused by what chain of cause and effect... sometimes he'll tell you - most of the time he won't.

 

In regards to the ming entanglements through sexual union - he started to explain this by showing the cause and effect chain through the yi jing hexagrams... words don't really work on this level... To be honest - I don't think I understood much - but then these dreams and revelations started to appear...

 

My understanding of Buddhism is pretty basic - but I don't think that karma can intermingle from one person to another... The theory around Ming is different - by coming into contact with certain chains of cause and effect, your own line of ming can be changed - for good and for bad... So the reality of the matter (from a Daoist perspective) is that our ming is almost unfathomably complex because of these interconnections...

 

For a basic example - the Ming of the nation you were born in will entangle with your personal Ming... so if there was a war, or a cultural shift, or some buried cultural guilt or victimization - you'll inherit an aspect of that... The Ming of your parents and grandparents - similarly intermingles with yours - both directly through the mechanism of pre-natal jing and indirectly through the shifting patterns of Ming... Your Ming can even become entangled with the Ming of a sports team you strongly identify with! So you see how complex it can get.

 

The best avenue of study to start to understand this is through the in-depth study of the Yi Jing...

 

A more indirect route is through the use of a practice known as the spiritual mirror - which, at a certain (ridiculously high) level, opens up a complete, immediate understanding of cause and effect... And there is a very similar 'siddhi' that comes about through the achievement and stabilization of one of the formless Jhannas.

[Rara]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

In regards to porn - it has a lot more to do with your mind and your neurochemistry. The reason porn aficionados tend towards more extreme porn over the course of their hobby is very similar to why drug addicts tend toward stronger drugs or larger doses over time... it's just a case of needing a more intense inner reaction to receive the same level of thrill.

 

There's nothing wrong with porn in and of itself. It's just counter-spiritual... just as any attachment is - like for example an extreme attachment to sports or a political view or even to your possessions. It's not the thing itself - but similar to what dmattwads says - it's the attachment... and anything that plays to your base desires (power, survival, social standing, sex) has a particularly "sticky" and inflammatory nature.

 

I'm going to start stealing your words outside of this forum haha. The comparison to sports and politics is very true. Especially politics...I find people who are always on about their agenda are not really better than any other addict.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Rara

[Apech]

32 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Ming from a Daoist perspective is a really complex field of study. My teacher who's achieved a kind of 'causal insight' has an immediate understanding of Ming and of what each event or quality in one's nature is caused by what chain of cause and effect... sometimes he'll tell you - most of the time he won't.

 

In regards to the ming entanglements through sexual union - he started to explain this by showing the cause and effect chain through the yi jing hexagrams... words don't really work on this level... To be honest - I don't think I understood much - but then these dreams and revelations started to appear...

 

My understanding of Buddhism is pretty basic - but I don't think that karma can intermingle from one person to another... The theory around Ming is different - by coming into contact with certain chains of cause and effect, your own line of ming can be changed - for good and for bad... So the reality of the matter (from a Daoist perspective) is that our ming is almost unfathomably complex because of these interconnections...

 

For a basic example - the Ming of the nation you were born in will entangle with your personal Ming... so if there was a war, or a cultural shift, or some buried cultural guilt or victimization - you'll inherit an aspect of that... The Ming of your parents and grandparents - similarly intermingles with yours - both directly through the mechanism of pre-natal jing and indirectly through the shifting patterns of Ming... Your Ming can even become entangled with the Ming of a sports team you strongly identify with! So you see how complex it can get.

 

The best avenue of study to start to understand this is through the in-depth study of the Yi Jing...

 

A more indirect route is through the use of a practice known as the spiritual mirror - which, at a certain (ridiculously high) level, opens up a complete, immediate understanding of cause and effect... And there is a very similar 'siddhi' that comes about through the achievement and stabilization of one of the formless Jhannas.

 

 

This kind of insight also comes with the bhumi levels of bodhisattvas in (some forms of ) Buddhism.

 

I suspect that in terms of ming mingling between lovers - there might be a chicken and egg aspect to this - where you could say that those two came together because of karmic connection/debt - but in terms of cause and effect there might be an inner/outer interaction.  Say you are attracted to someone because of karmic history - you hook up and have sex - the physical interaction then reinforces or ripens the latent connections and your life's direction is altered in some way (?)  Just thinking out loud on this

 

One wonders then what the precise effect in these terms would be of indiscriminate casual sex with multiple partners - presumbaly a host of weak-link karmic influences.

 

With porn ... you could argue there is no partner - or that there are multiple non-physical subtle interactions going on - resulting in ... god knows what.

[Maddie]

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

Say you are attracted to someone because of karmic history - you hook up and have sex - the physical interaction then reinforces or ripens the latent connections and your life's direction is altered in some way (?)  Just thinking out loud on this

 

 

This is why often karma tends to be self-perpetuating. You might be attracted to somebody because of past karma and then by acting on that attraction you create more attraction karma in general and for that person specifically thereby perpetuating the cycle.

 

24 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

With porn ... you could argue there is no partner - or that there are multiple non-physical subtle interactions going on - resulting in ... god knows what.

 

There is mind. Even with the partner it's ultimately mind. If it's with the partner you still experience them through the senses and the mind becomes conscious of the sensory contact through the senses thus creating more conditioning for future attachment.

Without a partner with porn for example there's still seeing and feeling tactile sensations even if they are self stimulated and conceptual concepts. So in the ultimate since there's not really any difference it's still craving and clinging due to conditioning.

Edited April 16, 2020 by dmattwads

[freeform]

30 minutes ago, Apech said:

One wonders then what the precise effect in these terms would be of indiscriminate casual sex with multiple partners - presumbaly a host of weak-link karmic influences.

 

Yes exactly... I've heard some senior students say that there is no such thing as 'casual' sex.

 

30 minutes ago, Apech said:

I suspect that in terms of ming mingling between lovers - there might be a chicken and egg aspect to this - where you could say that those two came together because of karmic connection/debt

 

Yeah - but from a ming perspective, things get super complex... because there is a Ming entanglement with the 'culture' of promiscuous sex or clubbing or even within each type of intoxicant one prefers (so alcohol will have a certain resonance, mdma, cocaine etc will be different still) - that's why you see different 'cultures' around each drug... or even each type of music... So the causal chain that brings you to sleep with someone else is hugely complex (but apparently quite clear, and not 'woolly') - and there are potentially a limitless number of causes. It's not that every strand affects every action - but there are many potential strands - and you wouldn't know what the real cause and effect chain is (unless you have direct insight - or can consult the Yi Jing expertly).

 

33 minutes ago, Rara said:

The comparison to sports and politics is very true.

 

Yeah... and what I find interesting - it's the aspects of life that are closest to one's base desires that have the strongest 'sticky' quality and the biggest gravitational pull. Sport and politics are generally an extension of our base desires on a societal level... Anything to do with survival (sex, tribe (and one's place/identity within it), power (both in the form of 'control' and money))

Edited April 16, 2020 by freeform

[Maddie]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

 

There's nothing wrong with porn in and of itself. It's just counter-spiritual... just as any attachment is - like for example an extreme attachment to sports or a political view or even to your possessions. It's not the thing itself - but similar to what dmattwads says - it's the attachment... and anything that plays to your base desires (power, survival, social standing, sex) has a particularly "sticky" and inflammatory nature.

 

I would say in this case an even more immediate cause of suffering than the attachment is the self-judgment about the attachment.

[freeform]

1 minute ago, dmattwads said:

 

I would say in this case an even more immediate cause of suffering than the attachment is the self-judgment about the attachment.

 

Yes - totally agree!

 

Not only self-judgement - but judging others... I think there's Christian 'Ming entanglement' with its idea of sin, morality and good and bad that creates a whole extra layer of suffering.

 

I've not seen this sort of judgement from Daoists - who from my experience just see things in a very practical light... which simply boils down to that there are consequences for every action and non-action. And if you're on a spiritual path then you'll need to deal with them in one way or another.

 

Sometimes the level of plain practicality surprises me - one of my teachers used to treat serious deviations and ended up taking as a student a guy who did some pretty vile stuff in his early life... stuff I'd find hard to forgive...

[Maddie]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yes - totally agree!

 

Not only self-judgement - but judging others... I think there's Christian 'Ming entanglement' with its idea of sin, morality and good and bad that creates a whole extra layer of suffering.

 

I've not seen this sort of judgement from Daoists - who from my experience just see things in a very practical light... which simply boils down to that there are consequences for every action and non-action. And if you're on a spiritual path then you'll need to deal with them in one way or another.

 

Sometimes the level of plain practicality surprises me - one of my teachers used to treat serious deviations and ended up taking as a student a guy who did some pretty vile stuff in his early life... stuff I'd find hard to forgive...

 

Things become easier to forgive when we separate actions from self.

 When it's an action then it's just an event that happened at a point in time and it's over with.

 When we think it's a self that committed an action and we think the self is eternal then the action by default becomes eternal in our perception.

Edited April 16, 2020 by dmattwads

[anshino23]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Sometimes the level of plain practicality surprises me - one of my teachers used to treat serious deviations and ended up taking as a student a guy who did some pretty vile stuff in his early life... stuff I'd find hard to forgive...

 

What'd he do?  And was the stuff done because of the Qi deviation? 

 

The reason I ask is because I imagine particular types of Qi deviations are not unlike psychosis? So in such a case, can we really hold people during a "psychotic break" accountable for their actions? Honestly, it's a big conundrum for me.

 

As you say yourself, the causal-effect relationships that exist on multiple levels are mindbogglingly complex. That's where the question of free will comes in. Is there an agent deciding these things? 

 

To use an extreme example, if someone poisons you with some drug that causes psychosis, in a crude way, karmically speaking, it is simply cause and effect at play, but you killing someone while being psychotic on said drug - was that the drug, or was it you? Would the drug causing the psychosis lead to killing unless you had the karmic seeds of anger in your unconscious mind ready to manifest?

 

And secondly, does an individual's intention during the act matter or not in terms of karma? These are all really big questions (at least for my small puny human brain). And I'm not sure they're easily answered outside of genuine samadhi and higher levels of wisdom.

 

It seems, at least from my perspective, that basically everyone that is not enlightened is effectively trying to emulate enlightened behaviour. But it's like emulating a professional foot baller. Only someone that has truly entered the stream would be someone who no longer produces karma, or only produces karma that is neither-bright-nor-dark. 

 

"Monks, these four types of kamma have been directly realized, verified, & made known by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result. There is kamma that is bright with bright result. There is kamma that is dark & bright with dark & bright result. There is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.

 

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration [samādhi ]. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma." ~ Ariyamagga Sutta

[liminal_luke]

I´ve often wondered...if donuts are bad for us, why did God make them taste good?  Now I´m told sexual intercourse foments karmic entagelements, an assertion that leads me to ask another question -- why did God give men testicles?  It´s a tragic one-two punch: the donuts put an end to this life while the sex ensures that future lives will be shit as well -- lovely.  I can only imagine what psychospiritual calamity my creator plans for me given my predilection for lavender-stuffed eyepillows and Bach cantatas.  Is no sensory pleasure safe?

 

I´m an ecologist at heart, which is to say that I believe in connection above all.  Human beings are connected to other species, and all of us connected to the earth; everything coexisting in a colassally gorgeous and fragile web.  Ecology.  Connectivity also means that physical processes are inseparable from psychological and spiritual ones.  Our minds works by positing divisions, but these divisions dissolve like mist under the torchlight of Awareness.  Matter, mind, spirit -- just names for different aspects of the same cosmic enchilada.

 

So yeah, do our sex lives have any bearing on our spiritul lives?  Yes, of course.  But please don´t tell the Bible toting conservtives, the California hating Trump supporters, the one man/one woman marriage crowd.  They´d only use this truth to shame us.  Shame is way more harmful to the spirit than casual sex.  Given enough lifetimes, I´ll deal with my backlog of sexual karma.  But sexual shame?  That is a  bummer of a different magnitude.

Edited April 16, 2020 by liminal_luke

[SongShuhang]

Sometimes I do watch porn, but I do not have any addiction to it. All in balance and I think if you try so hard to fight an addiction by not doing something, you are actually creating and fuelling an addiction. Fighting evil = generates more evil. It can go to extremes quite literally.

 

So people who do fasting and avoid all food, have tremendous cravings to food. That normal people who just eat in moderation simply dont face those issues.

 

In many cases I could watch porn but I just don't have desire or interest in it, when I could go watch some lectures on biochemistry and physics, that are more interesting.

 

And in addition to this, relations with living girl are much more interesting and fullfilling than relations with an image on screen.

[anshino23]

I can definitely agree with that in terms of shame. Here's a beautiful post by a friend of mine on the topic that I've found helpful when considering these things. Perhaps it can benefit others as well, so I share it here. 

 

"The first message you must understand is: what you suppress, you impress. 

 

One who has sex freely, thinks of sex lesser than one who forcibly represses sex. When one represses lust, it is like stuffing the mess of clothes into the cupboard. When one day, the cupboard gives way, the mess pours back in. You cannot block the light of the sun with your palm. 

 

There are many reasons for having a heightened sexuality, and this must be explored. In a past lifetime, you may have taken a pwoerful vow of celibacy, or perhaps have been traumatized in a certain manner. That is one possibility. A more recent possibility is that modern society is hyper-sexualized and as all things exist in polarities - its opposite, sex-shaming has also risen. 

 

You see sex-shaming especially in religious institutes and places where the practice is not right. This results in all the news about supposedly-religious people succumbing to sexual misconduct. 

 

Sex is perfectly natural. 

 

It is a beautiful way for nature to produce more of its organisms. It has such power - to pull a being into a body and generate a life. It is sacred and close to the Divine. 

 

However, the problem comes when one comes addicted to it. 

 

One who has transcended lust is immensely interested in sex. However, this one is also immensely interested in everything else. The stars, the moon, the Sun, the trees, the people around him, the bugs crawling in the Earth - they are a reflection of the wondrous, beautiful cosmos. One who is above lust, is one who no longer sees lust as the solution to one's satisfaction. 

 

This is a great difference from forced suppression. 

 

Yes, there are energetic costs to losing sperm, especially for a male. Losing one drop of semen is like losing blood. The power contained within to produce a life is as such. There is no doubt about it. 

 

However, to suppress one's lust is wrong. To shame oneself out of sex is also not the way. To control, restrict - This is only the way of one who does not understand the Dharma. 

 

Even the Buddha himself, as he sat under the Bodhi tree, encountered the temptation of Mara's most beautiful women. Have you asked yourself why most sages talk about this temptation? It is because through the Buddha's asceticism, he suppressed this desire - and it surfaced as a subconscious desire. 

 

To understand why sex is so addictive, you must firstly understand exactly why it gives one so much bliss. 

 

Orgasm is the very cause. What exactly, is orgasm? In orgasm, one's mind suddenly stops. At the point of time, one is unbounded by time and space. At that point, one sheds the ego, together with one's partner. At that one point, man reverts to nature, and all facades, appearances and self-deception dissappears. 

However, orgasm ends - beacuse the very nature of it is that the ego continues its clutches. Attachment resumes. Thoughts come back in. Having a taste of this blissfulness, one craves it. 

 

In true jhana, one tastes exactly this blisfulness. This is because it is the same - one is unbounded by space and time, giving rise to one-pointedness. Ego is shed. Facades fade to nature. One becomes innocent. 

So do not go down the wrong route of suppressing sex without understanding why it is so. One who has transcended lust is one who embraces everything - everything reminds that one of the Divine - emptiness - the void. 

 

If you treat your partner with selfless care, with non-addiction, with respect, love and care, then sex is perfectly wholesome. If you want to have sex, then have sex the right way. However, you must understand the energetic costs of doing so. That is all. If you have sex, do not lie that you are cultivating your energy for higher purposes - it is very simple. Be honest with yourself. It is better to be honest than to lie to oneself and push it into a repression. 

It is not a repression, but an embracing of everything else, and the understanding of why sex can be blissful. 

Then you can understand how this connection to the Divine, this blissfulness, can be sought in one's meditation. 

 

Sex is a connection of the sacral chakra between two partners. However, true tantra is when one connects all the chakras - not just the sacral chakra - and both partners are purified and capable of eliminating blockages within the energetic body. It is a highly sacred art that is not easily mastered - only possibly by guidance of a master. 

Allow yourself free expression, with careful investigation of oneself. When the Buddha said - "Speak truthfully", what did he mean?

 

When all the masters talk about not even letting lust arise in the mind - it is this understanding. It is not repression. It is the natural state of being one with all. It is the freedom from afflictions and addictions. It is spontaneity in the Tao."

[Apech]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I´ve often wondered...if donuts testicles are bad for us, why did God make them taste good?  Now I´m told sexual intercourse foments karmic entagelements, an assertion that leads me to ask another question -- why did God give men donuts testicles? 

 

I don't know why but the mirror version of your post made a lot of sense to me

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

why did God give men testicles? 

and I wonder why men have nipples...

 

Perhaps it's where God solders our skin together at the end of the production line.

[Rara]

19 hours ago, dmattwads said:

This is why often karma tends to be self-perpetuating. You might be attracted to somebody because of past karma and then by acting on that attraction you create more attraction karma in general and for that person specifically thereby perpetuating the cycle.

 

I am currently in the process of changing my taste in women. I started noticing a pattern!

[Rara]

19 hours ago, dmattwads said:

Without a partner with porn for example there's still seeing and feeling tactile sensations even if they are self stimulated and conceptual concepts.

 

True. Still better to have a partner than a computer though.

[Rara]

18 hours ago, dmattwads said:

 

Things become easier to forgive when we separate actions from self.

 When it's an action then it's just an event that happened at a point in time and it's over with.

 When we think it's a self that committed an action and we think the self is eternal then the action by default becomes eternal in our perception.

 

Is that not just failing to take accountability, though?

[Rara]

17 hours ago, anshino23 said:

The reason I ask is because I imagine particular types of Qi deviations are not unlike psychosis? So in such a case, can we really hold people during a "psychotic break" accountable for their actions? Honestly, it's a big conundrum for me.

 

Well, he must have shown some sort of sign that he was ready to begin the undoing process.

 

Like my last post, "accountability" is the key word here.

 

I have done things in my life which I have blamed various things for. Alcohol, "chemical imbalance", "anger issues", lack of control and being oblivious to it and having a "susceptible mind".

 

The moment I was strict with myself and said "No. I'm sorting this shit out", my life changed massively.

[Rara]

15 hours ago, SongShuhang said:

Sometimes I do watch porn, but I do not have any addiction to it. All in balance and I think if you try so hard to fight an addiction by not doing something, you are actually creating and fuelling an addiction. Fighting evil = generates more evil. It can go to extremes quite literally.

 

So people who do fasting and avoid all food, have tremendous cravings to food. That normal people who just eat in moderation simply dont face those issues.

 

In many cases I could watch porn but I just don't have desire or interest in it, when I could go watch some lectures on biochemistry and physics, that are more interesting.

 

And in addition to this, relations with living girl are much more interesting and fullfilling than relations with an image on screen.

 

It is said, that if you're going to quit (insert addicition here) then just don't tell the devil you're doing it.

[Rara]

14 hours ago, anshino23 said:

However, the problem comes when one comes addicted to it

 

So again, long-term relationship goals. Trust me, the "sex addiction" will go....and then if you get married.... 😂

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

Is that not just failing to take accountability, though?

 

Forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. 😉

[freeform]

23 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Qi deviations are not unlike psychosis? So in such a case, can we really hold people during a "psychotic break" accountable for their actions? Honestly, it's a big conundrum for me.

 

Well - we could also say that being a standard stimulus-response human is not far off being psychotic

 

23 hours ago, anshino23 said:

That's where the question of free will comes in. Is there an agent deciding these things? 

 

It's a big question... I don't think it's that black and white... because in reality, some people have more of a free will than others - and it has to do with the level of stimulus-response conditioning. Are you really free if your world view is heavily coloured by some past trauma that means you now view every interaction as a confrontation?

 

But yes - beneath all the acquired conditioning, we do have free will - it's just that our conditioning heavily distorts our view of reality as well as our action. But that still doesn't stop the law of cause and effect...

 

23 hours ago, anshino23 said:

And secondly, does an individual's intention during the act matter or not in terms of karma?

 

From my understanding action causes a deeper imprint on karma. However intention, I believe still counts to some extent. Curiously - the less of an emotional reaction you have the less strongly the karma imprints upon you... So in a cruelly unfair way - sociopaths that feel no guilt for their actions tend to have less of a karmic burden as a result of causing suffering.

 

It's a really tricky area. And I'm far from clear on everything.

[freeform]

21 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

So yeah, do our sex lives have any bearing on our spiritul lives?  Yes, of course.  But please don´t tell the Bible toting conservtives, the California hating Trump supporters, the one man/one woman marriage crowd.  They´d only use this truth to shame us.  Shame is way more harmful to the spirit than casual sex. 

 

Yes - completely agree.

 

It's interesting to see that there's always a shred of truth to things like the 7 deadly sins, heaven and hell and so on.

 

It's just the human tendency to take things and twist them to fit our own, very limited ends... So we'll take some truth and pervert it to gain power or to feed our sense of self. But what we miss is that we're actually committing the very sin we're using to pass judgement on others.

 

Spiritual truth must always come from experience as a result of spiritual practice... Vulgar people (as Daoist classics like to call them) simply don't have the insight to understand these things properly.

[freeform]

21 hours ago, SongShuhang said:

Fighting evil = generates more evil.

 

Yeah. This is very much the Daoist view.

 

Whereas in Buddhism, there's an external imposition on behaviour (right view, right action, right livelihood etc) - In Daoism the approach is to transform oneself from the inside until right view, right action, right livelihood arise of their own accord.

 

In a way, I think both approaches work to some extent. You just have to become a monk and control your external circumstances very strictly for it to work with the Buddhist approach.

 

In actual fact, many Daoist sects do have rules and impositions - particularly the more northern lineages that have more influence from Buddhism. But my teacher just had 3 guiding principles - Humility, Humour and something like 'not taking things too seriously'. I'm constantly amazed at the elegance of these once you really study them and put them into action.