Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, sagebrush said:

 

and you will never fully control or know mother nature.

 

 

You may have hit upon the essence of Daoism as a practical philosophy.

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, sagebrush said:

and you will never fully control or know mother nature.

 

... and you will never not fully be mother nature ...

[manitou]

10 hours ago, steve said:

Beautifully evocative post ST, thank you for that.

 

 

I would add trees, plants, bodies of water, mountains, planets, stars, and the elements to that short list...

It definitely takes some time and inner work to begin to connect at more subtle levels with less familiar manifestations but, like you point out, there is such richness and unlimited potential in opening ourselves to other forms of life and the natural world.

The more I connect with these things, the closer I feel I come to the fundamental essence of inter-being, as Thich Nhat Hanh likes to say, or to the essence of Dao, as might be more appropriate to this thread.

 

 

All matter and non-matter as well.  I've recently had a revelation that Matter Knows Its Shape.  So wonderful, those moments where everything is embraced as one.  With that in mind, everything we encounter becomes an object of our love.  It makes a wonderful difference for things like cleaning the house or cutting the hedges.

[Rara]

On 26/10/2019 at 5:36 PM, manitou said:

 

Such a nice post, Rara.  That's how I see it too.  I will be doing this on a new roomer that is coming into my home who brings a bit of chaos to the table.  When we're not-doing on a situation, we seem to become a mirror for the actions of the other person, enabling them to see and reconsider their chaos.  I go into this with eyes open.  Not enabling him to stay sick is my intent, not-doing my weapon.

 

 

Sometimes they may not look at the mirror. But hey, that's not your problem.

[Rara]

20 hours ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

 

So we can say kinda at odds with the “practical philosophy” mindset.. I get different ideas and feelings about this from different people and things I read, seems like some days people are more interested in entertaining the world that most of us have to live In and other times riding that detachment train. This why I say ultimately it would be clouds practical philosophy influence by daoism.  You’re kind of saying that the the goal is not the unintentional outcome of things practically working out?. I think the old writings and New often promote both aspects. That deeper sentiment is there though 

 

I might be in need of a break down if I haven't understood your question but...

 

Wu wei is a pretty old idea, right?

 

"You’re kind of saying that the the goal is not the unintentional outcome of things practically working out?."

 

Had to double-quote because this has thrown me with the double negative - sorry!

[Rara]

On 26/10/2019 at 6:25 PM, silent thunder said:

wow @steve  Your sharing triggers a memory.

 

Late this morning... an extended dream, mildly lucid of being carried along reef lines by massive underwater waves and currents... lightly interactively tumbling along as carried effortlessly in the arms of deep ocean currents. 

 

vast, expansive, utterly sweeping

and my awareness, my senses... like a leaf

effortlessly rolling, tumbling along in bliss and joy

at times swimming a bit to orient

 

but mostly, just relishing the pure movement

being carried by the Mother

one effortless aspect of all that shifts

and all of it, pure sweeping sensation without thought

beingness

 

thanks for sharing mate... deep gratitude.

 

I often feel of folks who disregard energetic sensations and interactions, the way I do of folks who find relationships with animals irrelevant.  I feel they are missing great dimensions of life.

 

Then I remember that this is just my mind, making stories and I relax.

 

The sense memory of this dream is utterly pervasive to mind and body.

I'm sitting here in a near stupor of simple joy of raw beingness.

 

such simplicity... life... beingness.

 

Stop, I'll start banging on about Zhaungzi soon.

 

Hang on, isn't that "philosophical Daoism"?

 

Psych!

[manitou]

 

It seems to me that the goal is to be in a state of acceptance,  after all is said and done.

 

[Jim D.]

Practically speaking, when it rains it is a good thing. But it is also smart to get out of the rain if you do not want to get wet, feel cold and miserable. This seems practical, and if dug into deeper it is following the Way. Either way, it is a matter of acceptance and a choice to either go this way or that way. When making a decision about which way to go, a new door opens up with many opportunities and choices...once I go this or that way. This pathway never comes to an end. If I try to be perfect about making the right decision, then I am paralyzed by fear. Freedom is making the choice and move on because I can always correct what does not feel comfortable. 

 

I hardly think about it as an outcome anymore because change is always constant, never static. I have gotten use to this fact. 

[manitou]

4 hours ago, Jim D. said:

Practically speaking, when it rains it is a good thing. But it is also smart to get out of the rain if you do not want to get wet, feel cold and miserable. This seems practical, and if dug into deeper it is following the Way. Either way, it is a matter of acceptance and a choice to either go this way or that way. When making a decision about which way to go, a new door opens up with many opportunities and choices...once I go this or that way. This pathway never comes to an end. If I try to be perfect about making the right decision, then I am paralyzed by fear. Freedom is making the choice and move on because I can always correct what does not feel comfortable. 

 

I hardly think about it as an outcome anymore because change is always constant, never static. I have gotten use to this fact. 

 

 

I think that was wonderfully put, Jim.  Yes!  No baggage, no preference.  It just is.  And you're right.  It is truly a process.  

 

But it's fun to remember that it's also all happening Now.

[Rara]

16 hours ago, Jim D. said:

If I try to be perfect about making the right decision, then I am paralyzed by fear.

 

I get hung up on this a lot. Thanks for reiterating this point

[Jim D.]

It is nice to be able to follow your postings. Since I have come to know you, I like supporting your ideas and comments. 

 

I am learning archery. It is very demanding physically. I use what is called a "bear" recurve bow. The others I shoot with use Olympic recurve bows. They have all the bells and whistles attached to their bows. Here I am with my "Charlie Brown" bow. They look wonderful when they let their arrow fly. I look lucky when I occasionally get inside the target. 

 

Two days ago one of the "shooters" tried my bow (he shoots a compound bow. It has pullies, a sight, balancing polls, an arrow plunger, clicker, expensive arrows, etc.) Well, my arrows which he used along with trying my bow were well off target when he shot my bow. And it was here that I realized that although this gentlemen is impressive with his own gear, my setup (which is bear bones simple) was challenging for him. He stopped after three shots. 

 

So, what does this say about practical philosophy. I may be the tortoise struggling to keep up, but someday I will have honed my instincts and skills to where I will never need to depend on mechanics to keep up with the others. I am just alright the way I am.

 

Note: I am a target shooter. I have no interest in hunting game. I don't have it in me to kill an animal. 

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

On 10/27/2019 at 1:09 PM, Rara said:

 

I might be in need of a break down if I haven't understood your question but...

 

Wu wei is a pretty old idea, right?

 

"You’re kind of saying that the the goal is not the unintentional outcome of things practically working out?."

 

Had to double-quote because this has thrown me with the double negative - sorry!

I was just trying to say that.. there’s some sentiment that the practicality of following “the way” is just a bi product and not the focus. Depending on who or even what part of what you’re reading in one of the old books, there seems to be shifting focus ranging from strong detachment, philosophical/practical manipulation of situation, “internal alchemy”. . 

[manitou]

The most practical application I've found to utilize we wei is, when I find myself wondering what to do in a situation, the first question I ask myself is "What would happen if I did nothing?"  And then I do nothing to "Help it along".  It's better off without my interference.

 

It seems to work every time.  Not 'work' in the sense that it provides the outcome I think should happen, but the universe straightens the dynamics all on its own, without my interference.  Like untangling a bowl of spaghetti.  You can just stand back and watch it.

[Jim D.]

There was a "circuit" speaker named Clancy. I enjoyed listening to him speak because he made the topic simple, understandable., and humorous. Someone had come to him with an answer to a question passing bad checks. The inquirer asked if he should just not worry about making the bad checks good and leave it up to the Universe to come up with the solution. Clancy responded that inquirer could just let it go, but he would have to deal with the legal consequences of passing fraudulent checks. 

 

We can pray for something to happen but we must be a part of the solution...in other words we have to take action for the Dao to work through us. 

 

In Aikido, which I have studied, the technique we wish to use starts the process of creating the empty space (wu wei) in which we wish to guide incoming force into. The same goes for Tai Chi martial application. Recall what has been said, when my opponent moves first I must get there before he does. If he does not move, I do nothing.

 

Remember that Wu Wei is just another word for something we all have experienced throughout life e.g. the empty cup of coffee, the empty toilet after its been flushed, an empty room etc. These nouns do not become adjectives until they are being used for what they were intended to be used for. 

[manitou]

When you ask yourself, 'what if I did nothing?', this is assuming that we still have to partake of the mundane things in our lives.  When we ask 'What should I do?' of ourselves, this means that the asker sincerely doesn't see an obvious course.  It seems to me that the asker in the above instance well knew what his conscience was telling him and was just looking for a way out.  Clancy's answer was right on target.  Wasn't his call to make, and the financial cripple can only fix his own life.  Nobody can do it for him.

 

Yes, Clancy was a trip.

 

There's another thing too.  If a person is capable of dropping the shield of ego and/or stilling the mind,  you are on the vibrational level that is capable of some strangeness.

Edited October 30, 2019 by manitou

[Rara]

17 hours ago, Jim D. said:

There was a "circuit" speaker named Clancy. I enjoyed listening to him speak because he made the topic simple, understandable., and humorous. Someone had come to him with an answer to a question passing bad checks. The inquirer asked if he should just not worry about making the bad checks good and leave it up to the Universe to come up with the solution. Clancy responded that inquirer could just let it go, but he would have to deal with the legal consequences of passing fraudulent checks. 

 

We can pray for something to happen but we must be a part of the solution...in other words we have to take action for the Dao to work through us. 

 

In Aikido, which I have studied, the technique we wish to use starts the process of creating the empty space (wu wei) in which we wish to guide incoming force into. The same goes for Tai Chi martial application. Recall what has been said, when my opponent moves first I must get there before he does. If he does not move, I do nothing.

 

Remember that Wu Wei is just another word for something we all have experienced throughout life e.g. the empty cup of coffee, the empty toilet after its been flushed, an empty room etc. These nouns do not become adjectives until they are being used for what they were intended to be used for. 

 

Nice.

 

I feel the value of learning a martial art is to understand that you can build a huge toolset of moves to realise that most of the time, you won't need to use them.

 

But yes, very important to acknowledge that we have to take action to be a part of the solution...but only when the action is necessary.

 

Tens of thousands of hours in practice in something will train the mind and body to act accordingly

[Rara]

22 hours ago, manitou said:

The most practical application I've found to utilize we wei is, when I find myself wondering what to do in a situation, the first question I ask myself is "What would happen if I did nothing?"  And then I do nothing to "Help it along".  It's better off without my interference.

 

It seems to work every time.  Not 'work' in the sense that it provides the outcome I think should happen, but the universe straightens the dynamics all on its own, without my interference.  Like untangling a bowl of spaghetti.  You can just stand back and watch it.

 

And on the flipside, ever noticed those days when absolutely NOTHING goes right or to plan?

 

I always look back and think, "if only I'd read the signs then I would have had a different day"

 

Sometimes all you gotta do is change direction and do something completely different to radically make a difference. Sounds obvious, but we are often stubborn as humans, and keep grinding it out, and wearing ourselves out!

[dwai]

23 hours ago, manitou said:

The most practical application I've found to utilize we wei is, when I find myself wondering what to do in a situation, the first question I ask myself is "What would happen if I did nothing?"  And then I do nothing to "Help it along".  It's better off without my interference.

 

It seems to work every time.  Not 'work' in the sense that it provides the outcome I think should happen, but the universe straightens the dynamics all on its own, without my interference.  Like untangling a bowl of spaghetti.  You can just stand back and watch it.

Beautiful!

 

There is an element of "faith" at play here...in terms of wu wei. When we are contented with things are the way they are, in the present moment, a deep knowing arises - to just let it be, as it is. The right action arises from non-action...no desire to make things be this way or that...what is best for the situation arises spontaneously. It is possible for everyone of us to be that way, but it is very hard to do it.

Like my master tells me -- Letting go is easy. The hard part is to maintain that "letting go" in all situations - what must come, arrives, what must go, departs. 

[manitou]

37 minutes ago, dwai said:

Beautiful!

 

There is an element of "faith" at play here...in terms of wu wei. When we are contented with things are the way they are, in the present moment, a deep knowing arises - to just let it be, as it is. The right action arises from non-action...no desire to make things be this way or that...what is best for the situation arises spontaneously. It is possible for everyone of us to be that way, but it is very hard to do it.

Like my master tells me -- Letting go is easy. The hard part is to maintain that "letting go" in all situations - what must come, arrives, what must go, departs. 

 

Yes, definitely an element of faith.  But once you've done it and seen it work, it's not such a huge leap.  The only faith I rely on is the intelligence within everything.

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, manitou said:

 

Yes, definitely an element of faith.  But once you've done it and seen it work, it's not such a huge leap.  The only faith I rely on is the intelligence within everything.

I didn't use the word "Faith" disparagingly...I think you know that

The faith that is used here is a result of diligent cultivation - the more we let go and let things be, the more powerful it becomes. It is like our 'knowing' that the sun will rise in the morning, even if we can't see it sometimes due to it being obscured by clouds etc...

[Rara]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Like my master tells me -- Letting go is easy. The hard part is to maintain that "letting go" in all situations - what must come, arrives, what must go, departs. 

 

Who's your master, dude? If you don't mind sharing?

 

Also, yes. This is why it is important to meditate regularly. I see it as like brushing your teeth...the mess builds up and you just have to let go of that mess regularly.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Rara
Because I had an afterthought. And what?

[Rara]

1 hour ago, manitou said:

 

Yes, definitely an element of faith.  But once you've done it and seen it work, it's not such a huge leap.  The only faith I rely on is the intelligence within everything.

 

Yeah...no one else around me gets it. I don't bother talking about this sorta thing because people it either goes over people's heads or they think I'm talking some barmy, floaty new age stuff.

 

Oh, how more lonely I get as I grow older and practice more.

[forestofclarity]

For me, what distinguishes Daoism from other spiritual philosophies is the focus on the embodied aspect of the teachings. Understanding wu wei is one thing, but having a felt sense of wu wei in the body is another. 

 

The kicker is that wu wei is actually the only way to really go. Considering the cosmos as a vast and interconnected set of relationships, there is no way to resist that--- it is like a fly trying to hold back a Tsunami. Even more so, all the thoughts and impulses we have, including the thoughts and impulses to resist, spontaneously pop up on their own. We don't sit at a work bench and mold them like an artist might mold clay cups and vases. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Rara said:

 

Who's your master, dude? If you don't mind sharing?

 

Also, yes. This is why it is important to meditate regularly. I see it as like brushing your teeth...the mess builds up and you just have to let go of that mess regularly.

Spoiler

 

 

[Jim D.]

The hardest part of leaning a martial art is relaxing when the instinct to tense up is natural when we feel defensive.