Daoism as a Practical Philosophy

[ilumairen]

 

19 hours ago, wandelaar said:

This was a rather short stay

 

It was nice to see you even for a short while. May your wandering be enjoyable. 

 

Warm regards

[liminal_luke]

I´ve never been able to read about philosophical principles, Daoist or otherwise, and apply them to my life.  Perhaps other people can do this?  If I want to embody the principles of Daoism in my life I have to practice a Daoist art and hope the principles seep in -- and out! -- through osmosis.  

[ilumairen]

"In dwelling, be close to the land. 
In meditation, go deep in the heart. 
In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. 
In speech, be true. 
In ruling, be just. 
In daily life, be competent. 
In action, be aware of the time and the season.

No fight: No blame."

     - Feng/English

 

It is the "be competent" aspect I'd like to highlight for the purpose of this thread, as to me, it highlights what @Cloudwalking Owl seems to be pointing towards when he mentions mastery, and it kinda brings the point home.

 

On a more personal level, the seed for the potential discord was sown in the opening post imo, and gave opening (and dare I say invitation) for the posts @wandelaar is finding disruptive. "No fight: No blame." In anticipating a fight, an opening jab was thrown, and here we are.. 

 

I like practicality, and am going to continue here for a measure.

[ilumairen]

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I´ve never been able to read about philosophical principles, Daoist or otherwise, and apply them to my life.  Perhaps other people can do this? 

 

 

Throughout my life, I've read and contemplated, testing and checking out if what I've read is applicable in life, and if it is how and to what extent is this thing I've read (or heard) useful, and will it assist in navigation and/or understanding. 

 

It was almost like a hobby. 

 

3 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

If I want to embody the principles of Daoism in my life I have to practice a Daoist art and hope the principles seep in -- and out! -- through osmosis.  

 

How very practical!

 

(kinda like cutting up an ox (or maybe an avocado) and finding the truth of the words for yourself)

[doc benway]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I´ve never been able to read about philosophical principles, Daoist or otherwise, and apply them to my life.  Perhaps other people can do this?  If I want to embody the principles of Daoism in my life I have to practice a Daoist art and hope the principles seep in -- and out! -- through osmosis.  

 

I have had a similar experience despite the fact that I tend to be overly intellectual in general.

Fortunately, I've been blessed with teachers who have emphasized the experiential path.

It's my belief, perhaps other can support or refute it, that the profound philosophical principles we value in Daoism, and other -isms, did not arise from the intellect. Rather they were discovered by practitioners through direct experience.
My Daoist and Bön teachers have consistently discouraged too much study and emphasized the value of connecting directly to the source through skillful practice again and again to develop familiarity and confidence. Ultimately we find that everything we need can be found there. 

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

I think it takes some serious studying, organizing trial and error to get to the point of having a "solid practical philosophy" which consistently holds to some given principals.  Another vote for experience being the best or ?easiest? way to realize something in practice. Problem solving forces you to be present and desire to understand situations will bring you deeper than you normally would. For me being a third or fourth party in a conflict has also made things clearer about how we as people tend to act and get in our own way.  Like when you realize you dont have to be right... you're not right because you tell yourself you're right or multiple people can be right in a situation. Probing situations for the "truth" of the situation not just stopping at one solution and closing the door

Edited October 19, 2019 by lrn2livorlive2lrn

[Cloudwalking Owl]

4 hours ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

I think it takes some serious studying, organizing trial and error to get to the point of having a "solid practical philosophy" which consistently holds to some given principals.  Another vote for experience being the best or ?easiest? way to realize something in practice. Problem solving forces you to be present and desire to understand situations will bring you deeper than you normally would. For me being a third or fourth party in a conflict has also made things clearer about how we as people tend to act and get in our own way.  Like when you realize you dont have to be right... you're not right because you tell yourself you're right or multiple people can be right in a situation. Probing situations for the "truth" of the situation not just stopping at one solution and closing the door

I have found that there is a ancient Daoist practice called "holding onto the One" (it's mentioned in both the Nei Yeh and the Taiping Jing.)  As I practice it, it is something like Buddhist mindfulness practice, but with a significant difference. Where mindfulness is aimed at bringing piece of mind through developing a detached, objective viewpoint, "holding onto the One" is a process of retaining your objective distance while at the same time looking as carefully as possible at the situation so you can learn the individual dao that underlies the process you are watching. If attempt to do this all the time, I have found that you will develop a more centred, aware consciousness while at the same time learning the subtleties that govern the world around us. This will allow one to develop the sort of "masterful" kung fu that Zhuangzi talks about. 

The process of holding onto the One for a long period of time and with regard to a large number of different daos, one will begin to learn and understand the greater Dao that underlies all the others. In the story from the original post, someone in the planning department of my city had decided that the only way to overcome the Engineering dept would be by mobilizing public support. And he or she realized that people have a great deal of nostalgia for timber frame construction and covered bridges. So when the opportunity arose they decided to take advantage of it to preserve the park. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Cloudwalking Owl

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

Pretty new to seriously thinking about daoism and really don’t know any of the practices. It’s good to hear that this is actually something. I agree with the idea that it helps you understand the greater dao.. or Atleast it makes  you appreciate that you don’t know... not closing the door keeps you open.. it literally takes a life time or a a really great thinker to get to zhuangzi level, I think. You really appreciate that after it starts clicking. I know that I’m not a slouch in the critical thinking department but it took me a good while, to be sick of the BS in my life, and some moral conflicts to get over myself and see things through that clearer outlook. Your description is my experience. Thanks 

Edited October 20, 2019 by lrn2livorlive2lrn

[Rocky Lionmouth]

AH! The individual dao of things is highly important, and it takes hard practice of emptyness and sensitivity to begin to see.

The principles of the philosophy are fairly standard ”decent living” and being pragmatic, and the finesse of it starts where it looks like you did nothing and it sorted itself out.

 

Mobilizing public support in a way as OP mentions isn’t exactly wu wei-ing it as it smacks of ”ism and schism” style politics, but it is very finessy that such a result can be achieved on a truly bold gamble and that it was in fact the people who were allowed to show the way. But, it was not an action devoid of ulterior motives, rather manipulative imo.

 

Following daoism as a practical philosophy is for me very much as Luke said it. Practice an art and allow its subtler workings go unchallenged, soon osmosis will start to work its wonders. But the importance here is in what can seemlike the tyranny of being surrendered to a master och discipline. Before it can start to develop and grow within the soil must be prepared and few can spontaneously and by their own volition make themselves so empty as to succeed in sprouting these seeds. Time and devotion and hard work is required.

 

Words will never be practical, understanding a practical philosophy lies, imho, in its descriptive title: pratice and practicality. It does sort of imply some deftness and adaptability that is already in place.

But daoism as a practical way is also cultivating the yin to manifest the yang, soil to sprouts if you will, so a yang doer will often mislead themselves into idealism and stubborn principle before discovering that reverting to yin and transforming is necessary. Culmination happens before reversion and decay or diminishing is the method... i think at least. Who knows?

[Rara]

On 15/10/2019 at 3:41 PM, Cloudwalking Owl said:

I'm interested in whether any folks on this discussion board follow Daoism as a practical philosophy. I've seen a lot of conversation about energetics, Chinese medicine, Qi, and so on. I don't want to be provocative, but I've come to the conclusion that most of this stuff is nonsense. But having said that, I do believe that there is a really practical core to Daoism that has sustained it over the centuries.
 

 

Of course, the philosophy is most pragmatic.

 

The rest isn't nonsense though. Yin and yang, one does not exist without the other.

 

Some people's interpretation or understanding may well be nonsense though.

[Walker]

7 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Mobilizing public support in a way as OP mentions isn’t exactly wu wei-ing it as it smacks of ”ism and schism” style politics, but it is very finessy that such a result can be achieved on a truly bold gamble and that it was in fact the people who were allowed to show the way. But, it was not an action devoid of ulterior motives, rather manipulative imo.

 

Exactly!

[dwai]

On 10/15/2019 at 9:41 AM, Cloudwalking Owl said:

I'm interested in whether any folks on this discussion board follow Daoism as a practical philosophy. I've seen a lot of conversation about energetics, Chinese medicine, Qi, and so on. I don't want to be provocative,

but I've come to the conclusion that most of this stuff is nonsense.

Don't mean to be provocative, but maybe you've not met the right people or just didn't learn the right methods of cultivation.  

 

Philosophical Daoism is not merely empty philosophy. If you want to live Daoism, you have to learn to become "empty" first. Emptiness is not an intellectual concept - it literally is everyone's core nature, yet is covered by layers of concepts and percepts. In order to become empty, one has to let go, layer upon layer of 'things' (thoughts, ideas, emotions, feelings, etc etc). When the core is finally exposed, all doubts about "energetics, qi and so on being considered nonsense" will be put to rest. 

[Jim D.]

Dao as a philosophical concept helps me sweep away the years of religious indoctrination. I like the reciprocal relationship it suggests. Shinto is a good one for me because it reveres nature. I have not felt comfortable with revering the Kami. I don't believe in worshiping something outside of me. It makes for an unequal relationship. Appreciating what is, is a good thing for me. 

 

I studied Iaido for a time. We would bow to the sword as a ritual, but I never got the importance of it. It is just a sword.

 

When I enter the Archery lanes room (which I now practice) I have tried bowing before going in. I respect archery as an art form of self examination and self improvement.  

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

Been doing some thinking....It seems like you’re going to have a whole lot of different ideas about this thing “daoism” because

 

1. The writers don’t say the exact same thing. They say similar things but I bet they would disagree on things. Small differences can be made large over time

 

2. THen there’s understanding of terms.. I’m assuming there are  different lineages that have subtle but important differences in the meaning of what is being said. 3. There’s also cultural and translation issues. There are translations of LZ and bits of zhuangzi that (to me) seem to almost detract from the sentiment I get overall. In translating you basically give the person a new voice and also a new emphasis. I cannot know what is the original voice or emphasis, I can try but I can not know what details are missing from a 2000 year old translation let alone one that has been translated into modern English. I can only know what is true in my experience. 

 

my personal view and what I feel to some extent is expressed in zhuangzi is...... you as a human are out of touch out of sync with the world because you are human...at some point we may have been less abstract... but now most humans are intense abstract machines pumping out  categories groups concepts indentity totally detached from “natural influence“ essentially in our own culturally created reality. This leads us to get in our own way and in the way of understanding certain things in life.  Another way to look at it would be  this creates pulling in ways that lead to conflict,have little basis in truth , have a certain agenda which aren’t helpful to ourselves but maybe to our abstraction ,group, identity, 

 

 

 IMO even if we lived very much under the influence of natural events  we would still have a level of unique abstraction from group to group. There’s also an issue of “our nature”  I think there’s probably a bit of inherent species specific social, hormonal/emotional and identity/personal safety instinct  which definitely cloud judgment . 

 

So one outlook ,which does make sense , is to just “go with the flow”  With this there’s going to be a bunch of opinions on how to do that. I’m not very clear on whose opinion is what but I hear different sentiments. Like if you shut up and go with the flow you’ll be going the way.. yes the way of abstract humans. This does simply illustrate the idea that if you let things play out you avoid conflict. But what if you’re curious about life and understanding? It’s hard to get that understanding sticking in your one group in your house,in your one abstract human culture. Not so dynamic not so much understanding. 

 

What I get from zhuangzi is you want  throw yourself into life openly so you can hear the perspectives  with as little BS  hang ups as possible and he’s talking serious detachment because the bias runs deep.  You don’t want to be CLINGING  to someone else’s identity trying to make it your own. You want to  FOLLOW what you find is true  and let it remain open,not create more BS

 

so I see it as being more of a process or outlook then a practical philosophy but idk why you couldnt take what you learn turn it into a system or principles for yourself.. but then I think this is Flirting with going back to where you started..it’s really up to you...

 

anyone who thinks I’m way off let me know, I’m learning... 

 

 

[Rara]

On 15/10/2019 at 5:12 PM, Cloudwalking Owl said:

At risk of annoying, I might suggest that this makes sense. Someone once told me that the essence of "Mastery" of a subject is being able to learn how to apply basic principles to novel situations. For example, a novice taijiquan player knows the moves of the set, but doesn't know how to apply them instantly in a fight. A "Master" at taijiquan is someone who is able to know instantly which move to use and how to apply it in a way that actually works. 

The general principles of Daoism are just like taijiquan moves. You have to instantly know how to apply them and how to do it "just right". In contrast, other stuff like discussing meditation, energetics, theory, etc, are much easier. It's like the difference between doing a taijiquan "forms" and doing live push-hands or sparring. And just like in all the taiji clubs I've been involved with, people who don't "get" live push hands, just come up with excuses to not even try.  

 

Fair.

 

95% Of people in the world talk but don't deliver. I mean, not just with Taoism, but in pretty much everything.

 

Human life, eh?

[Rara]

On 15/10/2019 at 6:33 PM, Cloudwalking Owl said:

The only time my teacher actually gave a formal talk (through horrible Cantonese to English translation) he mentioned that one of the big problems with people getting ahead in their learning because they told themselves "Oh, I couldn't do that!" or "I can't do it". I'd suggest that you probably do do things like what I'm describing already. But you might not do them very often, or, on command. 

Let me illustrate with a practical example. 

Once I was in my taijiquan club fooling around with a blunt, aluminum practice sabre. I noticed an 8.5 x 11 inch poster on the bulletin board promoting a cult, which annoyed me. I instantly stabbed it, flicked up the point, and, threw the poster into the air. Then I instantly did a move from the sabre form, which neatly sliced the paper in half, leaving both pieces to lazily fall to the floor. (I looked around the room and saw two beginner students with open jaws and bugged-out eyes. At that point the test for me was whether I would act groovy and mysterious---or be frank and honest towards them. It was an ego battle!) 

I could never do that move again if my life depended on it. It was just one of those bizarre moments when "everything clicks". I think everyone has those once in a while. But the issue isn't that anyone is groovy to have these experiences, it's that they do exist. The experience should inform the way you look at the world. As my teacher would say "You can do it! The question is whether or not you believe you can do it, and, whether you can put the time and energy into doing more often."  I'd suggest that understanding that these things happen and how common they really are is an important step in being able to do them more often.

 

Perhaps hours upon hours of training led to a wonderful spontaneously beautiful slice? In that moment, in the "zone", you had a glimpse of mastery. Unconscious perfection...

 

...wu wei...

 

...it may not happen again, but something else might.

 

Just throwing it our there, but working with that qi is doing something, whether you're aware of it or not. It just depends how much you care for its theory.

 

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.

[silent thunder]

Daoism is a word.

Pracitcal is a word.

Philosophy is a word.

 

Words point to meanings, but are not meanings of themselves.

 

While a finger can point to the stars, the finger is itself, star stuff... so whether one looks at the stars, or the finger, it's all star stuff.

Without the supernovas creating all the heavy elements of life, not a single human would arise to consider the notions of 'practicality' at all...

 

Pointing to one thing, encompasses all others by proxy.

You, sitting (assumedly) and reading these words, are star stuff, rearranged.

The screen you read it upon is rearranged star stuff.

Everything we observe and are made of... is rearranged star stuff...

Even the space between separate seeming things, is not empty, or separate, but a lighter density of rearranged star stuff.

 

all of observed phenomenon, and the noumenon that reflects it... made of one process, of star stuff coalescing, condenscing and eventually fizzling out, or exploding... all of it... one thing... star stuff.

 

now that, seems practical.

[Rara]

On 16/10/2019 at 4:38 PM, wandelaar said:

@ Ilumairen

 

Yes! Such is the natural way as proposed in the Chuang tse. I think that philosophical Taoism is close to Zen in its appreciation of the wonders of everyday life. And by wonders I don' t mean flying in the air, walking on water, or seeing through walls, but more simple things like unlocking a door or preparing an avocado.

 

I sometimes realize this blissful state of appreciation, and than I'm completely satisfied and happy. But this state soon slips away as the hassles of life drag away my attention.

 

I'd rather cut an avocado correctly right now, without leaving a load of it in the skin and having to scoop it out.

 

Flying in the air would suck if no one else could do it with me.

[Rara]

On 16/10/2019 at 6:19 PM, Cloudwalking Owl said:

I came to the conclusion that most of the experiences that I was having could be explained in better ways using modern scientific theory.

 

Actually, I have found that the traditional teachers are more scientific than magical. No one ever told me this stuff is magic.

 

Just remember, science cannot explain consciousness, emotion nor self-awareness. These are things we just have to delve into ourselves.

 

Science can explain and measure, but it cannot prove.

[Rara]

On 16/10/2019 at 10:37 PM, Apech said:

 

 

Thanks - actually I think that's very good.  You've clearly thrown out a lot of dross and misconceptions.  I agree about demonstrations of so called qi and power generally - it is mostly stage magic and tricks to impress the impressionable.  If you are interested in philosophy though you might find that the essential idea of qi is not some mysterious force at all.  It is part of an ancient cosmological view rather like yinyang theory and wuxing.  You could say if you like that it is a way of looking at the world, a view.  So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because of some charlatans, I would suggest.

 

For myself awareness of qi came through meditation and had a profound affect on me - and leaves me in no doubt - although I accept that there is a lot of crap spoken as well.  But I think we each need to find our own way based on our own genuine experiences - looking to others or the consensus is not very useful.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

 

A.

 

This.

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

 with all these things that have been said.... it would be cool to hear what you make of these opinions cloud 

Edited October 21, 2019 by lrn2livorlive2lrn

[Cloudwalking Owl]

4 hours ago, Rara said:

 

Just remember, science cannot explain consciousness, emotion nor self-awareness. These are things we just have to delve into ourselves.

 

Science can explain and measure, but it cannot prove.

 

Well, there are hypotheses about consciousness, emotion and self-awareness. I wonder what exactly you mean by the word "explain"?

True, science cannot prove---but it can disprove. 

[Cloudwalking Owl]

2 hours ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

 with all these things that have been said.... it would be cool to hear what you make of these opinions cloud 

Well, a lot of these comments just seem to be emotive statements devoid of an actual argument. An emotive statement boils down to saying "Yay! I agree" or "Bah! I disagree." I really did want to avoid talking about qi, but since people are interested in the subject, I'd like to put the shoe on the other foot. Would someone please give me an example of their experience of Qi and try to describe it in totally neutral terms? I have had several experiences that others have described as being "qi", but I'd like to compare what the people who have commented on this list have experienced with what I have. It might be that I have never had the experiences that these other folks have had, and as a result, I am totally "out to lunch" on this issue. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Cloudwalking Owl

[Rara]

8 hours ago, Cloudwalking Owl said:

 

Well, there are hypotheses about consciousness, emotion and self-awareness. I wonder what exactly you mean by the word "explain"?

True, science cannot prove---but it can disprove. 

 

Ok - explain as in, what the hell is it? Mechanics of the brain, fine. The CNS, fine. Heart beat and blood flow, fine. What keeps us ticking as machines is all very well explained, and bravo to those that spent hours upon hours researching, practicing and developing the world as well as the human body to what we have today.

 

We now have phenominal surgical procedures because of this, as an example. But we also have the wonderful ability to avoid surgery, to stay healthy amd youthful without the need for any of this as well.

 

All these things are within the Dao and compliment each other.

 

What good is they hypothesis when you know the study won't go anywhere?

 

I think you haven't considered that fact at the root of Taoism, we don't concern ourselves with trying to understand the non-understandable. If people are giving you hocus pocus, they have misunderstood and they are not worth your time.

 

May I ask, whay science can "disprove", so that I can contextualise?

[Rara]

15 hours ago, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

Been doing some thinking....It seems like you’re going to have a whole lot of different ideas about this thing “daoism” because

 

1. The writers don’t say the exact same thing. They say similar things but I bet they would disagree on things. Small differences can be made large over time

 

2. THen there’s understanding of terms.. I’m assuming there are  different lineages that have subtle but important differences in the meaning of what is being said. 3. There’s also cultural and translation issues. There are translations of LZ and bits of zhuangzi that (to me) seem to almost detract from the sentiment I get overall. In translating you basically give the person a new voice and also a new emphasis. I cannot know what is the original voice or emphasis, I can try but I can not know what details are missing from a 2000 year old translation let alone one that has been translated into modern English. I can only know what is true in my experience. 

 

my personal view and what I feel to some extent is expressed in zhuangzi is...... you as a human are out of touch out of sync with the world because you are human...at some point we may have been less abstract... but now most humans are intense abstract machines pumping out  categories groups concepts indentity totally detached from “natural influence“ essentially in our own culturally created reality. This leads us to get in our own way and in the way of understanding certain things in life.  Another way to look at it would be  this creates pulling in ways that lead to conflict,have little basis in truth , have a certain agenda which aren’t helpful to ourselves but maybe to our abstraction ,group, identity, 

 

 

 IMO even if we lived very much under the influence of natural events  we would still have a level of unique abstraction from group to group. There’s also an issue of “our nature”  I think there’s probably a bit of inherent species specific social, hormonal/emotional and identity/personal safety instinct  which definitely cloud judgment . 

 

So one outlook ,which does make sense , is to just “go with the flow”  With this there’s going to be a bunch of opinions on how to do that. I’m not very clear on whose opinion is what but I hear different sentiments. Like if you shut up and go with the flow you’ll be going the way.. yes the way of abstract humans. This does simply illustrate the idea that if you let things play out you avoid conflict. But what if you’re curious about life and understanding? It’s hard to get that understanding sticking in your one group in your house,in your one abstract human culture. Not so dynamic not so much understanding. 

 

What I get from zhuangzi is you want  throw yourself into life openly so you can hear the perspectives  with as little BS  hang ups as possible and he’s talking serious detachment because the bias runs deep.  You don’t want to be CLINGING  to someone else’s identity trying to make it your own. You want to  FOLLOW what you find is true  and let it remain open,not create more BS

 

so I see it as being more of a process or outlook then a practical philosophy but idk why you couldnt take what you learn turn it into a system or principles for yourself.. but then I think this is Flirting with going back to where you started..it’s really up to you...

 

anyone who thinks I’m way off let me know, I’m learning... 

 

 

 

You're learning correctly  Your humbleness is pleasant.

 

I enjoyed this because you've pointed out two vital things: we are all different and there are different schools of thought.

 

For me, it isn't the intricate details that I'm concerned with. We will all argue/debate until the cows come home.

 

But none of it reeeeally matters anyway. We're just filling the empty space with a bit of noise.

 

At it's simplest, at least we all cultivate in one way or another and the closer we get to the basics of what works unanimously (i.e A meditative practice, calming, going with the flow etc.) we're doing something along the lines of Daoist practice.