Qi hanzi confusion

[doc benway]

My shiye always makes a distinction between 炁 - qi4 and 氣 - qi4 when teaching about qi cultivation.

He defines 氣 as air and 炁 as internal energy.

 

氣 (air) contains 炁 (energy) but also contains the impurities and other components in air. He makes the point that 氣 cannot get into the body beyond the lungs without causing harm (ie gas in the bowels and embolism in the blood vessels). When we inhale, we breath in 氣 and when we exhale, we get rid of the impurities and absorb 炁. When we cultivate, we sink 炁 to dan tian, not 氣. He says that in the old days, the Daoists were careful to make this distinctionand used 炁 when discussing energy but for some reason, the distinction was lost at some point, at least as far as books go. Now almost all writings use 氣. Apparently, his teachers maintained the distinction in their teachings. In fact, whenever he teaches cultivation or teaches basics about qi and Chinese medicine, this tends to be the first thing that he talks about.

 

I've done some research and can only find 炁 in one online dictionary, http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?cdqchi=%E7%82%81, and the Chinese wikipedia, http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%82%81. Unfortunately, I don't read hanzi well so I'm very limited in my research. If you google the character, 炁, there are lots of hits on Chinese sites but it's painstaking work for me to translate them and the google translator is quite limited. Does anyone know more about this distinction? I find it interesting that I can find so little about it. It is mentioned in several places as being used in Daoist charms.

[Taomeow]

My shiye always makes a distinction between 炁 - qi4 and 氣 - qi4 when teaching about qi cultivation.

He defines 氣 as air and 炁 as internal energy.

 

氣 (air) contains 炁 (energy) but also contains the impurities and other components in air. He makes the point that 氣 cannot get into the body beyond the lungs without causing harm (ie gas in the bowels and embolism in the blood vessels). When we inhale, we breath in 氣 and when we exhale, we get rid of the impurities and absorb 炁. When we cultivate, we sink 炁 to dan tian, not 氣. He says that in the old days, the Daoists were careful to make this distinctionand used 炁 when discussing energy but for some reason, the distinction was lost at some point, at least as far as books go. Now almost all writings use 氣. Apparently, his teachers maintained the distinction in their teachings. In fact, whenever he teaches cultivation or teaches basics about qi and Chinese medicine, this tends to be the first thing that he talks about.

 

I've done some research and can only find 炁 in one online dictionary, http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?cdqchi=%E7%82%81, and the Chinese wikipedia, http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%82%81. Unfortunately, I don't read hanzi well so I'm very limited in my research. If you google the character, 炁, there are lots of hits on Chinese sites but it's painstaking work for me to translate them and the google translator is quite limited. Does anyone know more about this distinction? I find it interesting that I can find so little about it. It is mentioned in several places as being used in Daoist charms.

 

炁 is a character that, to me, spells out a breathtaking insight of Chinese civilization into the nature of the universe. Literal meaning boils down to "dog over fire." So first and foremost, it makes explicitly clear that this qi, 炁, is not "energy" and not "vital breath" and not "prana." Rather it is the interaction, the interface between energies of the world, the cause and effect of such interactions happening simultaneously. (My favorite translation is "co-creation.") Fire underlying live flesh, not literal fire and not literal dog but fire in all its incarnations -- light, heat, yang, electricity, motion, clinging, mind, heart (to name a few), and "dog" in its respective ones -- live phenomena, animals, humans, wood-water, receptiveness, flesh, incarnation (to name a few). It is indeed a useful distinction to make between the two characters -- and between two meanings of qi -- between 氣 that is close to "steam," "that which causes the lid over a pot of cooking rice rattle," and 炁 -- that which causes life to rattle with energy.

[Procurator]

Edited February 29, 2008 by Procurator

[Procurator]

炁 is a character that, to me, spells out a breathtaking insight of Chinese civilization into the nature of the universe. Literal meaning boils down to "dog over fire."

 

ahhh hot dogs breathtaking

 

where such nonsense is coming from? no seriously where from?

[mwight]

ahhh hot dogs breathtaking

 

where such nonsense is coming from? no seriously where from?

 

Well whether her literal translation is correct or not, her insight is spot on, and very profound. A little slack is due imho.

[sheng zhen]

[doc benway]

[affenbrot]

 

 

Regarding your literary interpretation, where does dog come from?

 

 

The upper radical to me is either to choke or a negative verb modifier depending on one's reading of the stroke count as explained below. I must be missing something in your interpretation.

...

 

The upper radical is 无, wu2, which means no or not (it negates a verb). It looks like 旡, ji4 which means to choke but I think that is just a consequence of the style of writing the horizontal middle stroke, rather than it being an extra stroke.

adding my totally uninformed opinion :

 

reading the upper radical as 无 doesn't makes sense because it is the new shortform of wu2,

so but the old qi character is an ancient one so it can't be they used the reformed hanzi in it, or am i wrong?.

ji4 in its geneology stems from dog, in the online dictionary (zhongwen.com) it says: "ji4, breath reversed or stoppped as swallow".

 

So i would read it as fire heating the reversed breath.

[Taomeow]

Regarding your literary interpretation, where does dog come from?

 

There's a book titled "What Character Is That?" by Ping-Gam Go that shows the root and origin of a bunch of crucial radicals that can then be used to unlock the meaning of thousands of characters. It has a chapter on historic origins of these radicals, with ancient ways to write them and the primary meanings from which subsequent ones were derived. I used to learn Chinese with a tutor who gave me this book and told me it's the only Chinese-English dictionary that makes sense.

[doc benway]

adding my totally uninformed opinion :

 

reading the upper radical as 无 doesn't makes sense because it is the new shortform of wu2,

so but the old qi character is an ancient one so it can't be they used the reformed hanzi in it, or am i wrong?.

ji4 in its geneology stems from dog, in the online dictionary (zhongwen.com) it says: "ji4, breath reversed or stoppped as swallow".

 

So i would read it as fire heating the reversed breath.

That make's alot of sense regarding the ji4 radical. Reversed breath over fire could also imply something about prenatal breathing and related to culturing the qi.

 

 

There's a book titled "What Character Is That?" by Ping-Gam Go that shows the root and origin of a bunch of crucial radicals that can then be used to unlock the meaning of thousands of characters. It has a chapter on historic origins of these radicals, with ancient ways to write them and the primary meanings from which subsequent ones were derived. I used to learn Chinese with a tutor who gave me this book and told me it's the only Chinese-English dictionary that makes sense.

I'll have to track down that book, it sounds good. Thanks for the tip!

[affenbrot]

There's a book titled "What Character Is That?" by Ping-Gam Go that shows the root and origin of a bunch of crucial radicals that can then be used to unlock the meaning of thousands of characters. It has a chapter on historic origins of these radicals, with ancient ways to write them and the primary meanings from which subsequent ones were derived. I used to learn Chinese with a tutor who gave me this book and told me it's the only Chinese-English dictionary that makes sense.

knowing the radicals definately helps.. now this discussion revamps some motivation to pick up my learning chinese again!

 

to spin it further i just found a obviously very arcane charakter (sorry cannot copypaste it here doesnt work) that has this ji4 thing (like in the "qi" charakter we discuss) as upper radical and instead of the four dot fire below is the four stroke radical for xin (heart), pronounces as ai4, meaning LOVE. Now i find that's cute.

 

so instead of the fire causing the lifeforce of the dog to steam, rattle and shake him, you give him a heart underneath, and love emerges

[松永道]

If I may add to the confusion..

 

In the tradition I learn Chinese Medicine through they've put it this way:

 

氣 is the qi of environment, external, sustenance. 谷气 (grain or food qi)，地气 (earth qi)。。。

 

炁 is the internal energy of transformed 氣, however 炁 is not the result of internal cultivation. 炁 is 中气 (stomach or middle burner qi)，营气 (nutritive qi)，卫气 (protective qi)，宗气 (chest or ancestral qi)。。。

 

Finally the 气 with a 火 (fire) radical inside is the qi that one can acquire from serious cultivation. It is under this qi that 元气 is also categorized.

 

Is this helpful? Interesting? Just more confusing? They are just words anyway. I personally don't put too much weight in the words until they've tested true in my body laboratory...but that's a different topic. 那你好好学习吧！祝你成功。

[Procurator]

Edited March 2, 2008 by Procurator

[松永道]

chinese medicine by definition is not primarily involved with internal cultivation , so...

 

My friend, surely you jest. I'm not talking about Materialist TCM. It takes no leap of intellect to discern that Chinese Medicine is the fruit of internal cultivation. Not to mention that every genuinely accomplished cultivator practices healing in one form or another. Dao can be cultivated through any pursuit, that said 医道 (the way of cultivation though medicine) and 武道 (the way of cultivation through martial art) are where you are most likely to find teachers with ability. It is common for high level cultivators to practice both (and 人道，茶道，等等) as they are all complementary.

 

To be a high level Chinese Medicine doctor, there is no argument, one must practice internal cultivation.

 

Does this clear things up for you?

 

[edit] The qi used used in the image of the article you've linked to is 气 with a 火 radical inside. More over it's written in oracle script which is a different set of characters. China's history is maddeningly complex. Everything was transcribed by hand (human error), recompiled, revised and sometimes entirely rewritten more times than anyone knows. In my opinion, it's a bit silly to argue over a character that they may or may not have used. Again, in the end it's all just words. And the dao that can be said...

Edited March 2, 2008 by 松永道

[Procurator]

 

 

Does this clear things up for you?

 

[edit] The qi used used in the image of the article you've linked to is 气 with a 火 radical inside. More over it's written in oracle script which is a different set of characters. China's history is maddeningly complex. Everything was transcribed by hand (human error), recompiled, revised and sometimes entirely rewritten more times than anyone knows. In my opinion, it's a bit silly to argue over a character that they may or may not have used. Again, in the end it's all just words. And the dao that can be said...

 

not that i have requested any clarification but since you asked -no, the statement above makes no sense and it is just as well. however that "The qi used used in the image of the article you've linked to is 气 with a 火 radical inside" is correct, it is also stated in the linked article.

 

Dao can be cultivated through any pursuit,

like doing jumping jacks or visiting bingo parlors often.yeah whatever. Edited March 2, 2008 by Procurator

[松永道]

not that i have requested any clarification but since you asked -no, the statement above makes no sense and it is just as well. however that "The qi used used in the image of the article you've linked to is 气 with a 火 radical inside" is correct, it is also stated in the linked article.

 

like doing jumping jacks or visiting bingo parlors often.yeah whatever.

 

You've got quite a superior attitude but haven't actually said much of anything. May I ask, what is your definition of cultivation?

[doc benway]

If I may add to the confusion..

 

In the tradition I learn Chinese Medicine through they've put it this way:

 

氣 is the qi of environment, external, sustenance. 谷气 (grain or food qi)，地气 (earth qi)。。。

 

炁 is the internal energy of transformed 氣, however 炁 is not the result of internal cultivation. 炁 is 中气 (stomach or middle burner qi)，营气 (nutritive qi)，卫气 (protective qi)，宗气 (chest or ancestral qi)。。。

 

Finally the 气 with a 火 (fire) radical inside is the qi that one can acquire from serious cultivation. It is under this qi that 元气 is also categorized.

 

Is this helpful? Interesting? Just more confusing? They are just words anyway. I personally don't put too much weight in the words until they've tested true in my body laboratory...but that's a different topic. 那你好好学习吧！祝你成功。

That was definitely interesting to me, most things are.

謝謝

[松永道]

That was definitely interesting to me, most things are.

謝謝

 

This is how 龙门派 (Dragon Gate) theory categorizes things anyway. I'm not sure if this is unique to them or common to other daoist systems. I was told exercise, diet, qi gong all build and use the 炁 but specifically 内功 (neigong) must be practiced to transform 炁 into 气（火）.

 

Food for thought.

[Procurator]

May I ask, what is your definition of cultivation?

sure you are very welcome to ask any questions. True cultivation means - to follow methods preserved in genuine texts and to achieve tangible results ("powers" as put in the differnt thread).

[松永道]

sure you are very welcome to ask any questions. True cultivation means - to follow methods preserved in genuine texts and to achieve tangible results ("powers" as put in the differnt thread).

 

Then I don't find conflict. At least in terms of the many ways cultivation has been practiced in China, every method of traditional cultivation be it martial, medicine, calligraphy, music, etc is rooted in neigong and have texts going back 1000+ years.

 

However, the genuine knowledge has been preserved in people, not books. You can certainly develop powers from self study but even then it's tough to gage without a guide. That said, once you've got your foundation cleared up self-study is a very viable option.

[voidisyinyang]

Well I read the first post on this thread, while sitting in full-lotus as usual. My experience is that the reverse breathing causes the energy to go up the yang back channel, as the lungs fill with air. When you hold the breath then the ENERGY builds up in the lower tan tien -- which connects the front to the back channel -- so that you feel the tip of the tail bone center open up and the bliss increases. Then as the energy goes up into the brain the vagus nerve on the right side of the neck pulsates and magnetic bliss fills the center of the brain. Then energy blockages move to the front of the skull and move out through the mouth, eyes, etc. When the skull channels open up then the energy just flows out the top of the skull as spirit travel. As the emptiness is experienced then the energy descends down the front channel and the process starts over. Then you store the energy in the lower tan tien - and god forbid you take in further impurities like food, sex, pollution, bad emotions, and any other usual fun. haha.

 

Wait who's doing this to me?