Do What Thou Wilt

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

 

It appears you are the one who is getting annoyed. Oh, and with the unresolved sexual tension (albeit one-sided here because you most certainly aren’t my type!), I am becoming very wary of the sudden admission of your open obsession for my balls in your mouth...

 

 

[Mskied]

31 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Now you are misinterpreting Crowley in yet another misunderstanding   and another misquote.

 

 

These damn misquoties !

 

 

 

 

I challenge you to quote him showing your   bolded words above  .

 

Since you NEVER have shown any quoted reference to anything  , one assumes you are referring to Liber Oz  ... which clearly states that ;

 

" 5. Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights ". 

 

Not to 'kill for what we believe " .

Exactly right!  They have the right to kill for what they believe- which is that they have the right to these rights.

 

And why can they do this?  Because the Law of the Universe is "Do What Thou Wilt!"

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Mskied said:

Nungali there are so many missed points between you and I that it is a never ending frayed thread to try to weave together to show you where we miss communication on what one and the either is saying.  One point, and I am only choosing just one because there are so many, is that when I was talking about the Septagram you kept thinking I was talking about the faery star- I wasn't, I amended and said I actually misspoke and didn't know anything about the faery star.  I have since, repeatedly, admitted to having less knowledge about structured systems and kept my comments to my own interpretation of my own experience, stopping referencing the work of others and started speaking directly from my own, but you will not relent and admit that I have altered course. 

 

Thats becasue, although you ignore or deny you are doing  it , you keep telling us what Crowley meant in the quotes you are making from him, even though you are saying you are not and they are your own ideas . You did it straight away after you where denying that you did it ! 

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Mskied said:

All you want to do is insult me based on what you feel is inadequate research on things you have researched, and I really have nothing to comment on about those things anymore. 

 

Yes, Thats  the tack people usually take when they cannot or refuse to cough up a reference  to back up their claims .

 

The whole title of this thread is lifted from Crowley .

 

 

12 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

Yes, you have read more than me, and whether that means you understand their concepts better I do not know, I only know that I understand my process and my concepts, and am trying to share them here cleanly, without accessing other philosophers work-

 

... just Crowley's eh ?

 

Which , by the way, he does not recommend . He actually sets out a pre study curriculum . Its in Book 4 Liber Aba , which you claimed to have read and even claim to be able to teach people from !

 

Which brings me to an issue ; you NEVER answered my question about this , when you made that claim. It was a VERY simple and civil question; which version of Book 4 .  You refused to answer , as I believe , you where fibbing and then trying to cover up your  fib . If not, simply answer the questions !

 

repeated reactions and refusals from you in this area and MANY others is what  started getting you these responses in the first place . And this isnt the first time all this has been laid out and explained to you .

 

But you just carry on diverting,  and then complaining about others (multiple others now by the way ) picking you up on this .

 

There is now, only one solution  .... you naughty boy !

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

 

but you and perhaps others refuse to allow me my understanding, and denounce any opinion I have on subjects that overlap with other thinkers.  If this is going to be the path you pursue in objecting to the fact that I have anything legitimate to say, then so be it.  Unfortunately I did not take the path of discipleship, devotion, or academia- I choose to contemplate on my own course, based on my experience with the septagram- which you haven't got, because that wasn't your course.  When I said "You either know or you don't know" about this star, I meant it- you either know what it can do or you don't, and in my case, you don't know what it did for me.

 

 

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

Translation: “I have the right to be right through self-initiation and self-appointed authority to argue the merits of self-serving logic, whether it makes sense to anyone else or not! I have the right to be wrong about my interpretation and the right to argue that I am still right!”

 

I'm putting that on a t shirt and wearing it !

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Mskied said:

It seemed fitting, as he is named after tea.

 

 

Or named after  Earl Grey   ... who the tea was named after .

 

dont forget to do your research !

 

 Charles Grey, 2nd Earl Grey, British Prime Minister in the 1830s and author of the Reform Bill of 1832. He reputedly received a gift, probably a diplomatic perquisite, of tea flavoured with bergamot oil

[Nungali]

26 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Exactly right!  They have the right to kill for what they believe- which is that they have the right to these rights.

 

And why can they do this?  Because the Law of the Universe is "Do What Thou Wilt!"

 

 

[ralis]

From what I know about any of this work is that being grounded is very important! Crowley was a mountain climber, chess player, a prolific writer, walked across the Gobi Desert with a pack mule while in his mind performing the “Key of Solomon” rites. 
 

I think body work is very important, whether Rolfing, Radix, Reichian body work as long as it is deep into the fasciae. 

[Mskied]

44 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Thats becasue, although you ignore or deny you are doing  it , you keep telling us what Crowley meant in the quotes you are making from him, even though you are saying you are not and they are your own ideas . You did it straight away after you where denying that you did it ! 

 

 

 

 

Yes, Thats  the tack people usually take when they cannot or refuse to cough up a reference  to back up their claims .

 

The whole title of this thread is lifted from Crowley .

 

 

 

... just Crowley's eh ?

 

Which , by the way, he does not recommend . He actually sets out a pre study curriculum . Its in Book 4 Liber Aba , which you claimed to have read and even claim to be able to teach people from !

 

Which brings me to an issue ; you NEVER answered my question about this , when you made that claim. It was a VERY simple and civil question; which version of Book 4 .  You refused to answer , as I believe , you where fibbing and then trying to cover up your  fib . If not, simply answer the questions !

 

repeated reactions and refusals from you in this area and MANY others is what  started getting you these responses in the first place . And this isnt the first time all this has been laid out and explained to you .

 

But you just carry on diverting,  and then complaining about others (multiple others now by the way ) picking you up on this .

 

There is now, only one solution  .... you naughty boy !

 

 

 

 

 

It is true that I hadn't heard that the Law of the Universe was "Do What Thou Wilt" until I was given over to Aiwass, but I don't think this is unique to Crowley, though I do not know.  I really don't comment on much of Crowley, actually- just a couple points he made about this Law.

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Mskied said:

It is true that I hadn't heard that the Law of the Universe was "Do What Thou Wilt" until I was given over to Aiwass, but I don't think this is unique to Crowley, though I do not know.

 

Well, trying to interpret this ^   , since Crowley never  wrote  " the Law of the Universe was "Do What Thou Wilt"  ' , and he never recorded Aiwass  saying that to him, I am guessing you 'heard' it yourself from Crowley, Aiwass or someone else .

 

Perhaps its unique to you ? 

 

3 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

  I really don't comment on much of Crowley, actually- just a couple points he made about this Law.

 

And they are the one's I was referring to .  I haven't asked you to show a reference or a source for any points that you DIDNT make !

 

[TheCove]

Stop feeding the troll.

[manitou]

This is one of the friendliest (and funniest) arguments I've witnessed on the Bums.  Congrats to everyone involved.

 

The concept of Do What Thou Wilt is interesting, as I see it.  In a sense, I think that's partially true.  It's the acting out of everyone's desires and motivations.  We are the Dao.  The Dao will do what it wants.

 

But I think the Dao also moves toward the light.  Back to our actual real nature, which is the nature of the Dao.  The law of love or mutual attraction, the foundation for everything.  Doing What Thou Wilt will follow the Dao if the intent and nature of the individual doing so has inner alignment to the degree of the Sage.  If the intent and nature of the individual is still unrefined and unchecked, it can result in what appears to be disaster.

 

But the Dao doesn't care.  The rain falls equally on everyone.  Straw dogs, us.

[thelerner]

I guess the hope is that the basic human being growing up in a loving family without deprivation can Do What they Wilt and its all good.  No worries.  Lying, stealing, hurting others is not our true nature.  Its artifice.. a sign the system or civilization is broken.  

 

Similar to, The best government has fewest laws.  When people are educated, civic minded and care about there neighbors you don't need 10,000 laws keeping them in line.

[Nungali]

If you cite those words , you are citing  Crowley . HIS ideas about 'Do what thou wilt' are very different .

 

Some other info ; lying

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-02-17-9101150700-story.html

 

https://www.labroots.com/trending/videos/10771/is-lying-human-nature

 

Thieves ;

  ' ...human beings fall into four basic categories: the helpless, the intelligent, the bandit and the stupid....'

 

http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidity/

 

Crowley's idea was if people' are educated, civic minded and care about there neighbors '  AND  go through the training and DEVELOPMENT he outlined they will only need one law .

 

OR

 

as manitou put it ;   " Doing What Thou Wilt will follow the Dao if the intent and nature of the individual doing so has inner alignment to the degree of the Sage."

 

Like many things, it might be assumed it part of the human 'tool kit' but  a lot of things only apply AFTER preliminary work has been done on the self .  This applies to a LOT of assumptions, for some it even includes having and raising  children (people just assume when it happens they will be able to do it as its part of human nature )  .

 

For some it even applies to the simplest of tasks

 

 

[ralis]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

If you cite those words , you are citing  Crowley . HIS ideas about 'Do what thou wilt' are very different .

 

Some other info ; lying

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-02-17-9101150700-story.html

 

https://www.labroots.com/trending/videos/10771/is-lying-human-nature

 

Thieves ;

  ' ...human beings fall into four basic categories: the helpless, the intelligent, the bandit and the stupid....'

 

http://harmful.cat-v.org/people/basic-laws-of-human-stupidity/

 

Crowley's idea was if people' are educated, civic minded and care about there neighbors '  AND  go through the training and DEVELOPMENT he outlined they will only need one law .

 

OR

 

as manitou put it ;   " Doing What Thou Wilt will follow the Dao if the intent and nature of the individual doing so has inner alignment to the degree of the Sage."

 

Like many things, it might be assumed it part of the human 'tool kit' but  a lot of things only apply AFTER preliminary work has been done on the self .  This applies to a LOT of assumptions, for some it even includes having and raising  children (people just assume when it happens they will be able to do it as its part of human nature )  .

 

For some it even applies to the simplest of tasks

 

 

 

I don't know if you have seen "Triumph of the Will", but this is what many believe as do what thou will as an absolute truth.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by ralis

[Nungali]

Ah ... tricky ,  'do what thou will '   without a   t  , so I suppose that isnt quoting Crowley's ' Do what thou wilt .... '     

 

In any case its actually ' Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law '  , the future tense implying it WILL apply (  'Do what thou wilt IS the whole of the Law)  when a certain stage of initiation (  or  'sageship'  if one prefers ) / practice / development  is achieved .

 

But people are just going to see it is 'plain ordinary everyday'   'will'  , regardless .  Their will or whim ..... Hitler's  will .... etc .

 

Some seem to think the rise of  Hitler and the times that 'allowed' that to happen is predicted by passages in Crowley's Book of the Law, Ch 3 .

[Mskied]

On 11/14/2019 at 11:37 AM, manitou said:

This is one of the friendliest (and funniest) arguments I've witnessed on the Bums.  Congrats to everyone involved.

 

The concept of Do What Thou Wilt is interesting, as I see it.  In a sense, I think that's partially true.  It's the acting out of everyone's desires and motivations.  We are the Dao.  The Dao will do what it wants.

 

But I think the Dao also moves toward the light.  Back to our actual real nature, which is the nature of the Dao.  The law of love or mutual attraction, the foundation for everything.  Doing What Thou Wilt will follow the Dao if the intent and nature of the individual doing so has inner alignment to the degree of the Sage.  If the intent and nature of the individual is still unrefined and unchecked, it can result in what appears to be disaster.

 

But the Dao doesn't care.  The rain falls equally on everyone.  Straw dogs, us.

I actually disagree with you.  The actual real nature of human beings Is hunger.  Love is a learned response based on having that hunger provided for.

[Mskied]

If you consider Do What Thou Wilt as legitimate, a saying from the God of the Universe- that the Law of Man is this, then you have to admit that it is not actually a Law, so much as a way things are;  all people are meant to do what they will.  When you think about choice, you realize that you do this anyway, but that in this choosing, we have restrictions.

 

Now if you want to take on Crowley and interpret whether he is saying Do What Thou Wilt and that is it- and get rid of this idea that you eventually come to some kind of other Law, then lets look at his work.  From the Book of the Law:

 

40. Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close into the word. For there are therein Three Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

 

Thelema means Will.

 

41. The word of Sin is Restriction.

 

42. Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will.

 

44. For pure will, unassuaged of purpose, delivered from the lust of result, is every way perfect.

 

30. If Will stops and cries Why, invoking Because, then Will stops & does nought.

31. If Power asks why, then is Power weakness.

32. Also reason is a lie; for there is a factor infinite & unknown; & all their words are skew-wise.

33. Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!

 

66. Write, & find ecstasy in writing! Work, & be our bed in working! Thrill with the joy of life & death! Ah! thy death shall be lovely: whososeeth it shall be glad. Thy death shall be the seal of the promise of our age long love. Come! lift up thine heart & rejoice! We are one; we are none.

 

17. Fear not at all; fear neither men nor Fates, nor gods, nor anything. Money fear not, nor laughter of the folk folly, nor any other power in heaven or upon the earth or under the earth. Nu is your refuge as Hadit your light; and I am the strength, force, vigour, of your arms.

18. Mercy let be off; damn them who pity! Kill and torture; spare not; be upon them!

 

25. This burn: of this make cakes & eat unto me. This hath also another use; let it be laid before me, and kept thick with perfumes of your orison: it shall become full of beetles as it were and creeping things sacred unto me.

26. These slay, naming your enemies; & they shall fall before you.

27. Also these shall breed lust & power of lust in you at the eating thereof.

28. Also ye shall be strong in war.

 

42. The ordeals thou shalt oversee thyself, save only the blind ones. Refuse none, but thou shalt know & destroy the traitors. I am Ra-Hoor-Khuit; and I am powerful to protect my servant. Success is thy proof: argue not; convert not; talk not over much! Them that seek to entrap thee, to overthrow thee, them attack without pity or quarter; & destroy them utterly. Swift as a trodden serpent turn and strike! Be thou yet deadlier than he! Drag down their souls to awful torment: laugh at their fear: spit upon them!

 

49. I am in a secret fourfold word, the blasphemy against all gods of men.

50. Curse them! Curse them! Curse them!

51. With my Hawk's head I peck at the eyes of Jesus as he hangs upon the cross.

52. I flap my wings in the face of Mohammed & blind him.

53. With my claws I tear out the flesh of the Indian and the Buddhist, Mongol and Din.

54. Bahlasti! Ompehda! I spit on your crapulous creeds.

55. Let Mary inviolate be torn upon wheels: for her sake let all chaste women be utterly despised among you!

 

57. Despise also all cowards; professional soldiers who dare not fight, but play; all fools despise!

58. But the keen and the proud, the royal and the lofty; ye are brothers!

59. As brothers fight ye!

60. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

 

Read these experts and conclude for yourselves what he means.  Think too about one of his central ceremonies which says "Deliver us from the Evil and the Good"  

 

 

The reason I decry that Do What Thou Wilt is a Law, aside from Crowley, though from the above you can see that it is one and the same, is that Law is based on protecting someone and applying governance over a person or people.  This Law is for the singular person, and not a community.  A community has Laws so that our efforts and our health are protected, and as you can see from this writing, that is not the goal- this is no communal theory, it is a theory of power for the mighty, whos Law is Do What Thou Wilt.  It is an ancient Truth, however, prior to the Wisdom of the last 2500 years, which turned religion from the rule of merciless kings to a rule of all people, whos safety and harmony is the goal.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Mskied

[ilumairen]

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

If you consider Do What Thou Wilt as legitimate, a saying from the God of the Universe- that the Law of Man is this, then you have to admit that it is not actually a Law, so much as a way things are;  all people are meant to do what they will.  When you think about choice, you realize that you do this anyway, but that in this choosing, we have restrictions.

 

"Do what thou wilt" can be understood without the need of an outside divine force having decreed it so. And, given what you quote in this post, imo, this very idea goes against what is being pointed towards, and it's toppling of religious iconography, elevation, structure, rule and law.

 

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

Now if you want to take on Crowley and interpret whether he is saying Do What Thou Wilt and that is it- and get rid of this idea that you eventually come to some kind of other Law, then lets look at his work. 

 

I've no desire to "take on Crowley." And this falls into the logical fallacy of appeal to authority, as your interpretation is not necessarily the author's intent. 

 

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

From the Book of the Law:

 

40. Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong, if he look but close into the word. For there are therein Three Grades, the Hermit, and the Lover, and the man of Earth. Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

 

Thelema means Will.

 

41. The word of Sin is Restriction.

 

It certainly is. Sin is a charged word used to get the masses to police each other and themselves. 

 

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

Read these experts and conclude for yourselves what he means.  Think too about one of his central ceremonies which says "Deliver us from the Evil and the Good"  

 

 

"Deliver us from the evil and the good", brings to mind both Blake and Jung, and seems to be part of the self-actualization process. 

 

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

The reason I decry that Do What Thou Wilt is a Law, aside from Crowley, though from the above you can see that it is one and the same, is that Law is based on protecting someone and applying governance over a person or people. 

 

Crowley also had difficulties with this third book.

 

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

This Law is for the singular person, and not a community.  A community has Laws so that our efforts and our health are protected, and as you can see from this writing, that is not the goal- this is no communal theory,

 

You are right, it isn't the goal, and this isn't communal. The first Aeons were more communal in nature - first the matriarchal, then the patriarchal. This third Aeon, and third book, is about individualization and self-actualization - the toppling of inhibiting structures. And it was even shocking and troubling to Crowley himself from what I've read. 

 

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

it is a theory of power for the mighty, whos Law is Do What Thou Wilt. 

 

Internally "mighty," yes..

 

7 hours ago, Mskied said:

 

It is an ancient Truth, however, prior to the Wisdom of the last 2500 years, which turned religion from the rule of merciless kings to a rule of all people, whos safety and harmony is the goal.

 

No! The "merciless kings" you refer to are of the second Aeon and patriarchal structure. Prior to this was the matriarchal Aeon. Your timeline is way off...

[Mskied]

Here is something we puzzled out over on Facebook.  

 

If the Law is Do What Thou Wilt, and that goes down to each individual, then the only Law is the individual Law, and so the only Truth is based on my interpretation of what is.  If this is the case, and then I declare Good based upon my own value.  

 

As all things are only True to the individual, then nothing is True- except to me, and that is why Chaos magick has coined the phrase "Nothing is true, all is allowed".  

 

If nothing is true, then nothing is real or sacred, and nothing is permanent or for that matter, important.  Therefore we can defile anything, or ruin anything- because nothing is real or True, it is ever what it will be and become, and so, there is no wrong, and no Law to stop anything.

 

"Deliver us from the Evil and the Good"

[ilumairen]

27 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Here is something we puzzled out over on Facebook.  

 

If the Law is Do What Thou Wilt, and that goes down to each individual, then the only Law is the individual Law, and so the only Truth is based on my interpretation of what is.  If this is the case, and then I declare Good based upon my own value.  

 

As all things are only True to the individual, then nothing is True- except to me, and that is why Chaos magick has coined the phrase "Nothing is true, all is allowed".  

 

If nothing is true, then nothing is real or sacred, and nothing is permanent or for that matter, important.  Therefore we can defile anything, or ruin anything- because nothing is real or True, it is ever what it will be and become, and so, there is no wrong, and no Law to stop anything.

 

"Deliver us from the Evil and the Good"

 

Nungali has pointed out something of importance which manitou also alluded to.. this "law" applies when a certain point in one's spiritual path has been reached. Prior to this point it's still the following of an external law, and a bit of a parody (and in this falls into the second Aeon [patriarchal ruling structure] and hasn't yet reached the third [self-actualized] Aeon) imo.

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by ilumairen

[ilumairen]

"Deliver us from the evil and the good," to me is transcendent - not permissive.

 

If one is still contemplating defilement and ruin then they have not transcended, and the words are no more than empty excuse. 

[Mskied]

Well as I pointed out already, the Book of the Law is pretty clear that the only Law is Do What Thou Wilt, and that there is no other Law, and this whole concept behind Crowley having conscience about the fact that oops, there might be some things we shouldn't do is a manufacturing of apologists.  In either case, Crowley aside, it does have legitimacy in a lot of respects- unless you consider that there is some kind of governor- not Nuit and Hadit, but some other being at work.

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Mskied said:

Here is something we puzzled out over on Facebook.  

 

If the Law is Do What Thou Wilt, and that goes down to each individual, then the only Law is the individual Law, and so the only Truth is based on my interpretation of what is.  If this is the case, and then I declare Good based upon my own value.  

 

But that is only because you and others short circuited it  It is not  "  The Law IS do what thou wilt "  it is 'Do what thou wilt SHALL BE the whole of the Law.  I already explained this .  After you have trained and developed sufficiently the Law will apply.

 

Of course,  cowans (the uninitiated, untrained, the unaware  etc ) are going to think this ; this means I can now do whatever I WANT .... nope !

 

 

 

Quote

 

As all things are only True to the individual, then nothing is True- except to me, and that is why Chaos magick has coined the phrase "Nothing is true, all is allowed".  

 

They didnt coin it and you have a actually misinterpreted it as well - the original came from Hassan i Sabbah - The hashishim master

 

(any reader of RA Wilson knows that !    )

 

 

 

Quote

 

If nothing is true, then nothing is real or sacred, and nothing is permanent or for that matter, important.  Therefore we can defile anything, or ruin anything- because nothing is real or True, it is ever what it will be and become, and so, there is no wrong, and no Law to stop anything.

 

Now you have mixed up misquoted Thelema with misquoted Chaos Magick and drawing operational conclusions from it .

 

No wonder you get yourself in a mess !

 

Quote

 

"Deliver us from the Evil and the Good"

 

I rarely pray, but in this instance :

 

' Oh Lord , deliver us from deliverance  ...... and Mskied !  "

Edited November 16, 2019 by Nungali

[Mskied]

60. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

 

and if that don't float your boat, she is unveiling herself to the company of men in a new Aeon (which starts at that time of unveiling) and so, from this point forth, the law SHALL be "Do What Thou Wilt"

Edited November 16, 2019 by Mskied

[ralis]

4 minutes ago, Mskied said:

60. There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.

 

and if that don't float your boat, she is unveiling herself to the company of men in a new Aeon (which starts at that time of unveiling) and so, from this point forth, the law SHALL be "Do What Thou Wilt"

Men only?