Do What Thou Wilt

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, stirling said:

My understanding of Crowley's "Law of Thelema" wasn't that it meant we are free to exercise our whims in the world, but instead find our "inner self" and allow that to guide us.

 

Its a shame this has been lost to mankind  ... virtually.

 

It isnt exactly ' find our inner self for guidance '   - its finding one's 'True Will' and then going about fulfilling it . Its the essential 'Law', ie.   Do what thou Wilt  ( one's True Will ) .   The concept first arises in ancient Zoroastrianism with the concept of the Khvaranah . I have been posting a bit about that here and there on DBs .

 

Its a component of the psyche , and one that might survive death, in combination with other components ; its our sole purpose for being here and incarnating !  I mean , if people have lost this concept ... what would become of the world ?  ...... oh , right    

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

Yes, Crowley believed that we are conditioned to act a certain way depending upon our environment and experiences.  He believed that this was made up of old ways that didn't meet with his new liberty and power of do what thou wilt.  He believed that that person was a facade, and that the real you lay within the freedom to choose who and what you will be.  It's kind of like being raised a Christian and being taught to always do good and help people, and think the best of them, but then you realize that you don't necessarily want to do that all the time.  Or being taught to remain a virgin until marriage, and to stay married til death.  In many ways, Crowleys new world lacks the kind of morality that had been refined by the religions.  Yes, it is more free, but it lacks the kind of good that we sometimes rely upon should we be disadvantaged or impoverished.

 

No .  I think you need to broaden your reading of him . He has many papers,  written advice to students, and the whole corpus of rewritten 'fraternity documents'  ( eg, in  O.T.O. , A.A. )  are full of 'moral advice ' and in some cases insist on support and help of the disadvantaged and impoverished . One small example might be in the rules and regs of a 'Profess House' ; members of long standing and high degree have rights to stay there for periods of time ( they are sort of like a monastery ), yet a virtual stranger can knock on the door and ask for refuge and be put up ..... IF she is a destitute pregnant woman   * .

 

There are other things like the 'bonds'  expected between fraternity members  - highly moral - which are actually part of oaths . papers n 'duty' and ethics' and child rearing  ( see note below ) , or a short extract from initiation material ;

 

" ... Do good unto others for its own sake, not for reward, not for gratitude from them, not for sympathy. If thou art generous, thou wilt not long for thine ears to be tickled by expressions of gratitude.

... In the true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme YHVH and in Osiris YHShVH  . "

 

* Like many of Crowley's  ideas, this probably comes from a reaction against what was happening at the times ; back then, for example in RC Ireland , a pregnant woman ( regardless of how she got pregnant , even via rape ) could be reported to the local priest . She would then be taken from her home , or taken by her parents to the ' Mothers and Babies Home , run by some psychopathic nuns . Here they where imprisoned and put to work , eventually their babies where taken from them after they passed the early breastfeeding stage  ,  and they where kicked out the door , destitute, with nothing .  If they didnt agree to an adoption , in many cases the babies died . Death records showed many died from malnutrition and other similar  terms that meant the same thing . The babies  where in the nuns care , the nuns lived there too , like many convents they had orchids, tended vegggie gardens , made bread.  They just  chose not to give that to the children  and starve them on a gruel instead . Literally . Then they dumped the bodies in the septic tanks out the back .

 

Not all the kids though ; some survived until discharge at early teen years ; they where not allowed outside , they sat on their cots or waked the corridors .  The good looking kids , where looked after as they also ran a racket selling them to  married catholic  couples in USA that could not have children . 

 

- yes, 'Crowley's time '  ... but also up to 1961 !

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-05/almost-800-irish-children-dumped-in-septic-tank-mass-grave/5501482

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

That's why the Wiccan take on DWTW is a bit better, IMO.  But then, if you read all of Crowley, you'll see that harming people was never off the table for him.

 

Indeed .... if you read  ALL of Crowley  .    

 

The 'harming thing' is a call out to pacifists  that believe in freedom  ..... like the modern meat eater that refuses to assist in butchering a steer .

 

I think the citizens of  Ukraine might now  understand what he meant !

[stirling]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Its a shame this has been lost to mankind  ... virtually.

 

It isnt exactly ' find our inner self for guidance '   - its finding one's 'True Will' and then going about fulfilling it . Its the essential 'Law', ie.   Do what thou Wilt  ( one's True Will ) .   The concept first arises in ancient Zoroastrianism with the concept of the Khvaranah . I have been posting a bit about that here and there on DBs .

 

Its a component of the psyche , and one that might survive death, in combination with other components ; its our sole purpose for being here and incarnating !  I mean , if people have lost this concept ... what would become of the world ?  ...... oh , right    

 

Agreed. I personally see it as a pointer to realize and act from the non-dual "self", not an invitation to knock yourself out raping and pillaging. I don't' think this is unlikely - Crowley was a well-known mountain climber and spent years of his life in the Himalayas. He was also an advocate for Buddhism as the most "scientific" religion, though also critical of it, and obviously influenced by Hinduism.

Edited March 4, 2022 by stirling

[Nungali]

20 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Agreed. I personally see it as a pointer to realize and act from the non-dual "self", not an invitation to knock yourself out raping and pillaging. I don't' think this is unlikely - Crowley was a well-known mountain climber and spent years of his life in the Himalayas. He was also an advocate for Buddhism as the most "scientific" religion, though also critical of it, and obviously influenced by Hinduism.

 

His 'system'  samples a wide eclectic . But 'back then' ( with post Victorian 'occult gentlemen' ) all that was then coming into vogue; Buddhism, Hinduism, Ancient Egypt, etc .

 

One of his first mystical seniors and teacher- Allen Bennett  ( in the Golden Dawn ) helped introduce Buddhism to England  and was the 2nd Englishman to become an ordained monk in the Theravada Tradition . 

 

The effect he had on Crowley ?    "  During the ceremony Crowley became aware of a "tremendous spiritual and magical force" coming from the east; he knew it must be Frater Iehi Aour  ( Bennett ) . ^[59][60][61] After the ceremony Crowley was "led trembling before the great man" though he could not bring himself to say a word.^[61]   and  "  ....  he consented to take me as a pupil. Before long we were working together day and night, and a devil of a time we had!"

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Henry_Allan_Bennett

Edited March 4, 2022 by Nungali

[helpfuldemon]

I'm no expert on Crowley, though I have read everything that is currently available by him, missing a few important books that are out of print, specifically the comment on the Law, but I do agree that mankind can do what they will, and they do; but it will never be the whole of the Law, there will always be laws in place to prevent actions.

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I'm no expert on Crowley, though I have read everything that is currently available by him, missing a few important books that are out of print,

 

Wow !  Thats a HUGE list then !  

The following list encompasses both Libri and other works, including those compiled or edited by others after Crowley's death.

• 777 and Other Qabalistic Writings of Aleister Crowley : Including Gematria & Sepher Sephiroth. (1982). York Beach, ME : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-222-6
• Aha! : Being Liber CCXLII. (1996). Tempe, Arizona: New Falcon Publications. ISBN 1-56184-035-1
• Aleister Crowley and the Practice of the Magical Diary. (2006). Tempe, AZ : New Falcon Publications. ISBN 1-57863-372-9
• Amrita : Essays in Magical Rejuvenation. (1990). Kings Beach, CA : Thelema Publications. ISBN 0-913576-18-2
• "The Blue Equinox" (Equinox III:1). (1992). York Beach, ME : Samuel Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-210-2
• The Book of the Law (Technically called Liber AL vel Legis sub figura CCXX as delivered by XCIII = 418 to DCLXVI). (1997). York Beach, ME : Samuel Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-334-6
• The Book of Lies, which is also falsely called Breaks, originally 1912 or 1913, (1981). York Beach, ME : Samuel Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-516-0
• The Book of Thoth : A Short Essay on the Tarot of the Egyptians (Equinox III:5), originally 1944, (1981). New York : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-268-4
• Clouds without Water. (1909). Illinois : Yogi Publication Society. ISBN 0-911662-50-2
• Collected Works of Aleister Crowley 1905-1907. (1974). New York : Gordon Press. ISBN 0-87968-130-6
• Commentaries on the Holy Books and Other Papers (Equinox IV:1). (1996). York Beach, ME : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-888-7
• The Confessions of Aleister Crowley : An Autohagiography. (1979). London; Boston : Routledge & Kegan Paul. ISBN 0-7100-0175-4
• Crowley on Christ. (1974). London: The C.W. Daniel Co.Ltd. ISBN 0-85207-131-0
• Diary of a Drug Fiend. (1970). York Beach, ME : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-146-7
• Eight Lectures on Yoga (Equinox III:4). (1985). Phoenix, AZ : Falcon Press. ISBN 0-941404-36-6
• Enochian World of Aleister Crowley : Enochian Sex Magick. (1991). Scottsdale, AZ : New Falcon Publications. ISBN 1-56184-029-7
• The Equinox (I:1-10). (2006).York Beach, ME : Weiser Books. ISBN 1-57863-351-6
• The Equinox (III:10). (2001). York Beach, ME : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-719-8
• The Equinox of the Gods (Equinox III:3). (1992). York Beach, ME : Samuel Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-210-2
• Gems from the Equinox. (1982).Phoenix, AZ : Falcon Press. ISBN 0-941404-10-2
• The General Principles of Astrology (Liber DXXXVI). (2002). Boston, MA : Weiser Books. ISBN 0-87728-908-5
• The Goetia : The Lesser Key of Solomon the King. (1995). York Beach, ME : Samuel Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-847-X
• The Heart of the Master. (1973). Montreal : 93 Publishing. ISBN 0-919690-00-9
• The Holy Books of Thelema (Equinox III:9). (1983). York Beach, ME : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-579-9
• Khing Kang King : The Classic of Purity, Being Liber XXI. (1980). Kings Beach, CA : Thelema Publications. ISBN 0-913576-16-6
• Konx Om Pax : Essays in Light. (1990). Chicago: Teitan Press. ISBN 0-933429-04-5
• The Law is for All : The Authorized Popular Commentary of Liber AL vel Legis sub figura CCXX, The Book of the Law. (1996). Tempe, AZ : New Falcon Publications. ISBN 1-56184-090-4
• Liber Aleph vel CXI : The Book of Wisdom or Folly (Equinox III:6). (1991). York Beach, ME : Samuel Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-729-5
• Little Essays Toward Truth. (1991). Tempe, AZ : New Falcon Publications. ISBN 1-56184-000-9
• The Magical Diaries of Aleister Crowley : Tunisia 1923. (1996). York Beach, ME : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-856-9
• The Magical Record of the Beast 666: The Diaries of Aleister Crowley, 1914-1920. (1972). London : Duckworth. ISBN 0-7156-0636-0
• Magick : Liber ABA, Book Four, Parts I-IV. (1997). York Beach, ME : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-919-0
• Magick Without Tears. [First Edition 1973] (1982). Phoenix, AZ : Falcon Press. ISBN 0-941404-17-X
• Moonchild. (1972). London : Sphere. ISBN 0-7221-2703-0
• The Qabalah of Aleister Crowley : Three Texts. (1973). New York, NY : Samuel Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-222-6
• The Revival of Magick and Other Essays. (1998). Tempe, AZ : New Falcon Publications. ISBN 1-56184-133-1
• Rites of Eleusis: As Performed at Caxton Hall. (1990). Thame : Mandrake Press. ISBN 1-872736-02-5
• The Scrutinies of Simon Iff. (1987). Chicago: Teitan Press. ISBN 0-933429-02-9
• Shih Yi: A critical and mnemonic paraphrase of the Yi King by Ko Yuen (Equinox III:8). (1971). Oceanside, CA. : H. P. Smith. ASIN B0006DYW0U
• The Spirit of Solitude. (1929). Mandrake Press: London. The first two volumes of an intended six of Crowley's autobiography ('Autohagiography'). The six volumes first appeared in omnibus form as The Confessions of Aleister Crowley: An Autohagiography in 1989 (see above).
• The Stratagem and other Stories. (1929) Mandrake Press : London.
• Tannhäuser : A Story of All Time. (1974). New York : Gordon Press. ISBN 0-87968-215-9
• The Tao Teh King : A New Translation (Equinox III:8). (1976). Kings Beach, CA : Thelema Publications. ISBN 0-913576-06-9
• The Vision & the Voice : With Commentary and Other Papers (Equinox IV:II). (1998). York Beach, ME : S. Weiser. ISBN 0-87728-887-9
• The World’s Tragedy. (1985). Phoenix, AZ : Falcon Press. ISBN 0-941404-18-8

 

 What about The Vision and the Voice ? Thats rather essential .  The Rites of Eleusis ?  They are easily available .

 

Have you read his writings that I refereed to ; on Profess House, OTO constitution, works on Ethics . I am assuming, of course, you MUST have read Liber Aba Book 4 'magick in Theory and Practice '  ? -  as that is his main and most famous work and an essential handbook to any one that reads Crowley - let alone anyone that has read  all his works available .

 

then again, I am not sure what you mean by 'out of print' .  ?

 

here ya go ;

 

https://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/index.htm

 

All seem 'available here '   ^ 

 

I highly recommend his  777 , one would be entirely lost at sea without that ... but of course that could be 'out of print ' , although available on line .

 

 

3 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

specifically the comment on the Law,

 

You missed commentary on the Book of the Law  ? 

 

So  then you dont know what the author meant be the writings  himself when you offered up an interpretation ?

 

I would also suggest that if you did read a copy of the Book of the Law  one of his 'Comments to the Book of the Law' is printed in it as the last page .

 

Then again, maybe your reading has been on line  ... where all sorts of mistakes and omissions can occur . Eg, one stipulation is a handwritten original copy must accompany the printed version .  And thats becasue there are all sorts of mistakes and omissions in the original     .

 

 

3 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

but I do agree that mankind can do what they will, and they do; but it will never be the whole of the Law, there will always be laws in place to prevent actions.

 

Well, mankind as an 'entity'  ( as a 'whole' , throughout location and history ) is obviously ragingly, psychopathically , violently , criminal insane .  And on that level, yes, they will do what they will .  Yes, there will always be various changing ( again due to time or location ) laws - some might even be the opposite for one set of people to another ' they are the 'laws in place ' or 'laws of the land '  - humanity, at large , will easily trample on these .

 

I mean ... I am pretty sure it is  'against the law' to charge your military cross country into another one ,, shell a nuclear reactor and then shoot at the firemen who are trying to put out the resultant fire ... but , mhe ... depends  .... apparently .

 

Its a question of capitals to show distinction ;   " Will "  is Crowley's concept of the 'True Will'  ( not just ;  'will' - to cite it as the same is rather disingenuous . Your ; " mankind do what they will ' is not, and is something different - it is , as you say , a will they will 'do anyway' .

 

Same as laws . There will always be laws , but Crowley refers to  ' The Law'  - and that is in the context of Thelema - not law or laws generally .

 

To confound these concepts has been a great source of mischief .

 

- but any one who has even read a little of Crowley's work would know that .

[helpfuldemon]

Yeah I've read a lot of those works.  I didn't get the chance to practice Magick much, I mostly looked for the wisdom in Thelema.  To me it seems like an excuse to not practice the high moral acts of kindness and mercy of Christianity, and an excuse to do drugs and have lots of sex.  In my life, I've learned that there isn't that much to do in life, and that most things are rather mundane.  I find a lot of Magick to be the ramblings of a neurotic man that doesn't simply act, but needs some sort of convoluted processes to explain why to do things.

[Nungali]

8 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

Yeah I've read a lot of those works.  I didn't get the chance to practice Magick much, I mostly looked for the wisdom in Thelema.  To me it seems like an excuse to not practice the high moral acts of kindness and mercy of Christianity, and an excuse to do drugs and have lots of sex.  In my life, I've learned that there isn't that much to do in life, and that most things are rather mundane.  I find a lot of Magick to be the ramblings of a neurotic man that doesn't simply act, but needs some sort of convoluted processes to explain why to do things.

 

 

Have you read Liber Abba, book 4 - Magick in Theory and Practice ?      I'm not asking if you practised Magick but if you read that book .

 

What are the 'high moral acts of kindness and mercy practised by Christianity ??? .  Did you read the link I posted before  about the Nuns home dumping 800 babies bodies in their septic tank that they starved, becasue they where from unmarried women , while the Nuns sat around eating the food they grew themselves ?

 

How is this high moral act and kindness .   And if you ( or myself, for that matter ) are being 'selective'  why ignore the enormous wrongs of Christianity and laud their 'morals and kindness' , yet ignore the morals and kindness of Thelema   and  make a misinterpretation  abut just an excuse to do drugs and have sex .

 

I mean , its all rater silly ; when did people need an 'excuse' to do drugs  and have sex ?      We just 'do it '   , dont need an excuse to do it .     You should not need to 'excuse yourself' just to have sex.

 

And you have learned that  there isnt much to do in life  ?????    Goodness !  I could come back 100 times and hardly scratch the surface of what there is to do in life  !

 

And Crowley is a man that 'doesnt act'  ????      Look at that list of books up there , do you realise how long and how many volumes are i some of those works ?

 

And the mountaineering  and all the others stuff ... doesnt act  ?? !

 

But you must already know this as you would have read his autobiography  ... since you have read most of his works,  yeah ?    ;

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Confessions_of_Aleister_Crowley

 

[Nungali]

I mean .... it's okay to try a bluff  ..... but sooner or later you are going to have to show your cards    

 

[helpfuldemon]

Yes I have read it.  A lot of Crowley's ideas came from other works.  The quote on generosity is taken from the Jewish idea of Chesed.  The part about honoring other Gods comes from Buddhism.  Some of his ideas were original, but like I said, it seems like the mind of a neurotic person trying to create a system to justify action rather than just doing the action for it's own sake.

 

You can't judge the Gospels on the actions of people, I'm sure you know this, especially as a Thelemite.  I don't know if that story about the nuns is true, but that isn't something that Jesus would say to do.  The Gospels are exceptional examples of how to treat one another with kindness, probably the most refined version of action to this day, and what could be more virtuous than kindness and generosity?  Crowley hated Christianity, and one can only assume it is because he judged it according to the works of people and not the literature itself.  He thought it was too restrictive, which it is, but for good reason.  The church fathers demonize sexuality, saying that it leads to Sin, which it can, just as can the Church do sinful acts.  The church is no different than the Law of Thelema, and the injustices you say they committed were made in preserving their faith tradition, something Crowley advocated, and is done by all creatures and organizations of power.  Again, this goes against the Gospels, and I've often wondered why people that believe Jesus is God would adopt the word of apostles and monks when it contradicts the message of their God.

Edited March 7, 2022 by helpfuldemon

[helpfuldemon]

And another thing, if Thelema was as big as Christianity just imagine all that they would do that would be unjust.  I don't care what you say, the law is do what thou wilt, and many people will use that to do what they please.  Just as Christianity has been misinterpreted, so too would something like Thelema, even more so, IMO.  Power corrupts and people will make errors.  In fact, you could say that the law of Thelema is in place as it is, and that all the things people do in the secular community could be attributed to it, and look at all that goes on there!  You don't have to have heard of Thelema, or be a Thelemite to do what you will.

Edited March 7, 2022 by helpfuldemon

[Nungali]

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Yes I have read it.  A lot of Crowley's ideas came from other works.  The quote on generosity is taken from the Jewish idea of Chesed.  The part about honoring other Gods comes from Buddhism

 

Then you should be able to show WHERE in Buddhism , with a citation, that they say to honour  Jupiter is to honour  Jehovah .

 

I'd LOVE to see that !   

 

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

 

Some of his ideas were original, but like I said, it seems like the mind of a neurotic person trying to create a system to justify action rather than just doing the action for it's own sake.

 

Well, thats a giveaway !

 

To suggest Crowley didnt do things 'for their own sake' is rather laughable to one who has actually read his works .

 

" . Enough of Because! Be he damned  for a dog! "

 

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

 

You can't judge the Gospels on the actions of people, I'm sure you know this, especially as a Thelemite.  I

 

 

 

No, I was judging the actions of Christianity , in relation to your claim about it .  Christians are a part of Christianity .

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I don't know if that story about the nuns is true, but that isn't something that Jesus would say to do. 

 

 

A bit of brief and very simple research will reveal the truth of the matter to you .

 

 

 

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

 

The Gospels are exceptional examples of how to treat one another with kindness, probably the most refined version of action to this day, and what could be more virtuous than kindness and generosity?  Crowley hated Christianity, and one can only assume it is because he judged it according to the works of people and not the literature itself.  He thought it was too restrictive, which it is, but for good reason.  The church fathers demonize sexuality, saying that it leads to Sin, which it can, just as can the Church do sinful acts.

 

Yes, the church's demonisation of sex certainly led to all sorts of perversions  - usually against children   ( again with the child abuse ! )

 

 

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

 

  The church is no different than the Law of Thelema,

 

 

 

 

 

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

and the injustices you say they committed were made in preserving their faith tradition, something Crowley advocated,

 

RUBBISH!   If its true cite Crowley on  him saying  that preserving one's faith tradition excuses injustice .

 

If you cant , it proves you are just making up stuff as you go along .

 

 

21 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

and is done by all creatures and organizations of power.  Again, this goes against the Gospels, and I've often wondered why people that believe Jesus is God would adopt the word of apostles and monks when it contradicts the message of their God.

 

Ummmm .... because they might be a little nuts , to believe Jesus was God, in the first place  ? 

[Nungali]

17 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

And another thing, if Thelema was as big as Christianity just imagine all that they would do that would be unjust. 

 

That 'injustice' would be more a figment of YOUR imagination than mine .  I would imagine it very different  .

 

 

 

Quote

 

 

I don't care what you say, the law is do what thou wilt, and many people will use that to do what they please. 

 

Not only are you not caring what I say about it , you are not caring what its own author is saying about it , what any intelligent person is saying about it ( that has REALLY looked into it and read commentary material from the  author on it  - which you admit you yourself have not read ! )  and what all the historical research shows on the development of the idea .

 

In short, you, like the guy that started this thread ,  is ignoring every indication towards understanding and instead projecting your own fears and misunderstandings into it .

 

Many people are doing what they please and always have anyway ... we dont need someone like  Crowley to convince people of this personal interpretation of yours .

 

And again  , it isnt ' do what thou wilt ' its do what thou  Wilt  ... the capitalisation indicating a meaning specific to Thelema .

 

 

Quote

 

 

Just as Christianity has been misinterpreted, so too would something like Thelema, even more so, IMO.  Power corrupts and people will make errors.  In fact, you could say that the law of Thelema is in place as it is, and that all the things people do in the secular community could be attributed to it, and look at all that goes on there!  You don't have to have heard of Thelema, or be a Thelemite to do what you will.

 

You are still choosing to totally misinterpret this.

 

You have also made a gigantic miss in interpreting tense as well as capitals

 

Do what thou wilt SHALL BE the whole of the law .     That means it has not happened yet .   And it will not happen for an individual either until they come to the greater understanding of what it all means  ... then it WILL BE  the whole of the Law .

 

While you are still running around complaining about   will instead of Will , no greater understanding seems possible  .

Edited March 7, 2022 by Nungali

[helpfuldemon]

I'm not going to argue with you any more, you're obviously a zealot and thoroughly convinced of your own opinion.  If Crowley was trying to create a new morality he failed; he created the absence of morality, or rather, the only morality he can defend is liberty, to do what you need to do in the name of freedom.  

[Nungali]

6 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I'm not going to argue with you any more, you're obviously a zealot and thoroughly convinced of your own opinion.  If Crowley was trying to create a new morality he failed; he created the absence of morality, or rather, the only morality he can defend is liberty, to do what you need to do in the name of freedom.  

 

No , it was  not about do what you NEED  either .

 

But go on, if you cant debate with the facts .... take your bat and ball and run home then .

[helpfuldemon]

As much as I like to argue about Thelema, because I find that saying something is the whole of the law to be flawed, and I don't like the third part of the book of the Law "Mercy be off".  I know that people need to be prevented from doing certain actions and so we have punishment for those actions, but I feel like people aren't always in line with morality and law, and that we need mercy, and to be given a few chances to learn.  

 

I understand that Do What Thou Wilt is particular to Crowley and his theory, but it appears to be do what you like to me, and it always will.  I don't think Crowley meant it any other way, otherwise he wouldn't have said that when you do something it can be done to you.  I don't have the places bookmarked because I'm not a serious student, but I've read bits that elude to this being the absolute law of freedom, and the strongest wins.  I don't think anything was off the table for Crowley.  

 

The thing of it is, that I am sort of obsessed over it because when I was being tortured by the spirits, I cried out "Why is this happening to me?" and I fell asleep.  When I awoke from a dream, at the end of it, the word Aiwass flashed in my mind.  I had never heard of Aiwass, never read it or heard it before, so I knew it wasn't my subconscious.  I have to believe that whatever Divine Order there is approves of Thelema, otherwise why would they send it to me?  I've been trying to validate or contest it ever since.  I've gone up and down in my attempt at understanding.  I've also seen the technology that these Gods possess, and I wonder, where have they been throughout history?  I used to think that this event in my life and this technology was man made, from our current age.  I thought that man had secretly found a way to place technology in our bodies and communicate and etc.  I've since had to decide that this is not the case, and that it is Gods machine.  Because of these things, and others, I know that the impossible is possible, and so I have to keep an open mind when it comes to prophets, and things like miracles.  But I also have to keep doubt in my heart lest I fall prey to any story or myth.  

 

When all of this started happening to me, I thought I was going to return to Christianity, but the Gods gave me Thelema, and if that means that Christianity has fallen out of favor, so be it.  I was always sort of a Thelemite anyway, without knowing about it.  In the end, none of this does me any good because I have been tortured to the point of being disabled, and I don't have much Will to do anything, nor the resources.  I don't know why I have been tortured.  I wasn't a very bad person when this started, had a wild youth and was pretty lawless as an adolescent, but as an adult, was very kind and I didn't harm anyone, so it can't be punishment for my past really, though that could be true.  This torture didn't help me learn any, it just made it more difficult.  I've stopped holding out hope that this was something good.  As it is, I've lived long enough, and am just waiting to die now.  I have no desires, I think much of what we do is just to pass the time, and is meaningless.  I've resolved my moral issues and have things in order.  I'm not interested in much and I don't feel like doing anything.  This whole affair seems like a waste of time, and I can't understand why God, or anyone, would do this to a person.  Makes me wonder if God acts at all, or if it is on whim that He does things, and allows so much other stuff to continue.  And like I said, I've seen their technology, where have they been?  Science is relatively new, did God want us to be simple creatures?  And why doesn't God punish evil people?  Why punish me?  I was no one important, I didn't have a long list of evil actions, I know I asked for the power to bring love to the world, but this is how it was to be accomplished?  I was already loving, I had hoped for some supernatural power, which I don't have.  I didn't need this.

Edited March 12, 2022 by helpfuldemon

[Nungali]

On 12/03/2022 at 10:35 PM, helpfuldemon said:

As much as I like to argue about Thelema, because I find that saying something is the whole of the law to be flawed, and I don't like the third part of the book of the Law "Mercy be off". 

 

Well, who does ?  I dont know anyone that 'likes'  Ch 3  ( in a serious way ) .  I also dont know anyone that likes some of the things that part 3 predicted .   Many have made the mistake , and it looks like you have , of thinking  that it a prescription for action instead of a prediction of actions . One only has to observe the history of the decades after its writing to understand this .

 

 

On 12/03/2022 at 10:35 PM, helpfuldemon said:

 

I know that people need to be prevented from doing certain actions and so we have punishment for those actions, but I feel like people aren't always in line with morality and law, and that we need mercy, and to be given a few chances to learn.  

 

Thats why we are encouraged to balance both forces ;

 

" Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil."

 

On 12/03/2022 at 10:35 PM, helpfuldemon said:

 

I understand that Do What Thou Wilt is particular to Crowley

 

Not really , it is a very old tradition , Crowley just revamped it .

 

 

On 12/03/2022 at 10:35 PM, helpfuldemon said:

 

 and his theory, but it appears to be do what you like to me, and it always will.

 

Then, you will always be stuck where you are .

 

On 12/03/2022 at 10:35 PM, helpfuldemon said:

I don't think Crowley meant it any other way, otherwise he wouldn't have said that when you do something it can be done to you.

 

He certainly meant  it another way ,  he wrote that he did not mean it the way you claim and he did not say what you claim he said .

 

 

On 12/03/2022 at 10:35 PM, helpfuldemon said:

  I don't have the places bookmarked because I'm not a serious student, but I've read bits that elude to this being the absolute law of freedom, and the strongest wins.  I don't think anything was off the table for Crowley.  

 

If understood the RIGHT way it is a law of freedom  -  the law of 'the strongest wins'  is a law in nature concerning WHEN things devolve into a fight , and 'strength' might mean different things , it can mean 'resolve'  , it could mean 'craftiness' , etc .

 

On 12/03/2022 at 10:35 PM, helpfuldemon said:

 

The thing of it is, that I am sort of obsessed over it because when I was being tortured by the spirits, I cried out "Why is this happening to me?" and I fell asleep.  When I awoke from a dream, at the end of it, the word Aiwass flashed in my mind.  I had never heard of Aiwass, never read it or heard it before, so I knew it wasn't my subconscious.  I have to believe that whatever Divine Order there is approves of Thelema, otherwise why would they send it to me?  I've been trying to validate or contest it ever since.  I've gone up and down in my attempt at understanding.  I've also seen the technology that these Gods possess, and I wonder, where have they been throughout history?  I used to think that this event in my life and this technology was man made, from our current age.  I thought that man had secretly found a way to place technology in our bodies and communicate and etc.  I've since had to decide that this is not the case, and that it is Gods machine.  Because of these things, and others, I know that the impossible is possible, and so I have to keep an open mind when it comes to prophets, and things like miracles.  But I also have to keep doubt in my heart lest I fall prey to any story or myth.  

 

When all of this started happening to me, I thought I was going to return to Christianity, but the Gods gave me Thelema, and if that means that Christianity has fallen out of favor, so be it.  I was always sort of a Thelemite anyway, without knowing about it.  In the end, none of this does me any good because I have been tortured to the point of being disabled, and I don't have much Will to do anything, nor the resources.  I don't know why I have been tortured.  I wasn't a very bad person when this started, had a wild youth and was pretty lawless as an adolescent, but as an adult, was very kind and I didn't harm anyone, so it can't be punishment for my past really, though that could be true.  This torture didn't help me learn any, it just made it more difficult.  I've stopped holding out hope that this was something good.  As it is, I've lived long enough, and am just waiting to die now.  I have no desires, I think much of what we do is just to pass the time, and is meaningless.  I've resolved my moral issues and have things in order.  I'm not interested in much and I don't feel like doing anything.  This whole affair seems like a waste of time, and I can't understand why God, or anyone, would do this to a person.  Makes me wonder if God acts at all, or if it is on whim that He does things, and allows so much other stuff to continue.  And like I said, I've seen their technology, where have they been?  Science is relatively new, did God want us to be simple creatures?  And why doesn't God punish evil people?  Why punish me?  I was no one important, I didn't have a long list of evil actions, I know I asked for the power to bring love to the world, but this is how it was to be accomplished?  I was already loving, I had hoped for some supernatural power, which I don't have.  I didn't need this.

 

I think this is all an entirely different  'issue'  .... good luck with that .

 

 

[Lairg]

On 3/12/2022 at 9:35 PM, helpfuldemon said:

Why punish me?  I was no one important, I didn't have a long list of evil actions

 

It looks to me as if you are embedded in group karma including from the Holy Inquisition.  Better to step away from ritual and magic for a few lives - if you are able.

[helpfuldemon]

Yes I've thought about why this has happened, and purifying other people's karma could be one reason, but there is no way to prove that, all of those things are speculative.  When I first started with all of this I declared that I would do a lot of different things, and I don't know if I offered myself as a sacrifice or what.  In dealing with these pains, I have wondered why such things would be necessary.  I don't think God follows these rules.  

[helpfuldemon]

We have earned the trust of the Gods to have free will, and that is the drama of humanity:  will mankind do what is right?

[manitou]

On 3/20/2022 at 8:48 PM, helpfuldemon said:

We have earned the trust of the Gods to have free will, and that is the drama of humanity:  will mankind do what is right?

 

 

This is true if one remains in the throes of duality.

[helpfuldemon]

Gods Will cannot be to love and to be free, for both don't fit together perfectly.  It is either one or the other; love cannot be the law if the law is do what thou wilt.

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Gods Will cannot be to love and to be free, for both don't fit together perfectly.  It is either one or the other; love cannot be the law if the law is do what thou wilt.

 

Act with love. 

[Nungali]

Love and freedom dont 'fit together'  ? 

 

Naawwww !

 

 

 

You just had some 'lovin' ?  You SHOULD feel free !