Do What Thou Wilt

[helpfuldemon]

18 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Act with love. 

 

You would think it would be simple to act with love.  Doing things out of love, if love is the law.  But if the law is freedom, then we don't have to act with love, do we?  We are free to act with whatever Will we desire.  But we don't all agree on what a loving act is, do we?  Some people think tough love is the way to go, while others believe it is kindness and generosity.  Crowely called Nietzsche a Saint, and Nietzsche believed we like adversity, to be denied things, and to be forced to earn them to prove to ourselves our strength and dominance.  If the law is do what thou wilt, then we don't have to act out of love.  We can act out of greed and selfishness.  

[Lairg]

38 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

if the law is freedom, then we don't have to act with love,

 

Human logic does not have much traction when dealing with Reality

 

[Nungali]

13 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

You would think it would be simple to act with love.  Doing things out of love, if love is the law.  But if the law is freedom, then we don't have to act with love, do we?  We are free to act with whatever Will we desire.  But we don't all agree on what a loving act is, do we?  Some people think tough love is the way to go, while others believe it is kindness and generosity.  Crowely called Nietzsche a Saint, and Nietzsche believed we like adversity, to be denied things, and to be forced to earn them to prove to ourselves our strength and dominance.  If the law is do what thou wilt, then we don't have to act out of love.  We can act out of greed and selfishness.  

 

 

An interesting point of view and philosophy , based on some 'progressive logic' - let's go through it .

 

" You would think it would be simple to act with love.  Doing things out of love, if love is the law."

 

- It is simple to 'act' that way, actually, it's a type of 'non action' ; when you eliminate the 'clutter' attached to love and things we mistake for love ( that's the hard part'  'pure love' should flow by itself).

 

 " But if the law is freedom, then we don't have to act with love, do we?"

 

- This point relies on your 'if' .   I dont see 'The Law'  -as freedom . Only in that one is supposedly 'free to do their Will' , and that is the "True Will " as described in the associated literature . That might not relate to commonly understood concepts of freedom at all . However, it is said that a 'greater freedom' is the result .

 

"  We are free to act with whatever Will we desire.  "

 

- But True Will might have little to with 'desire' , desire is too vague ; I could desire to possess your car, or have a drink, or a burning inner desire to advance and improve myself , or have a desire to serve humanity with my special gifts . The same with 'will'- that's why Crowley referred specifically to the 'True Will'  and described what he meant by the terms he used . 

 

" But we don't all agree on what a loving act is, do we?  "

 

- An act  ?  We dont even understand what love is !  As I said above , we mistake and  confuse love,  we name other things  love that are not , it is often the supposed reason for acts done under other motivations . So what is 'pure love' ? We should remain here within the realm and the referred understanding of the author of the phrase , i.e.. what did Crowley mean by love . The best reference might be in the Tarot .  This lies within the 2 of cups concepts . Cups are emotions and the ace is singular so beyond our understanding, the highest we can come to in that realm is the 2 and 'pure love'  - not emotional or sexual, not yet even fraternal  or developed in any form . In the commentaries Crowley speaks of  a universal energy that draws things together , even on the level of hydrogen and oxygen to combine .  I won't go on here about it all , read it in The Book of Thoth 2 of Cups.  Suffice to say ' Love is the Law' is about THAT force being a law, not some faulty concept and attachments and misuse of it that is any 'law' .

 

" Some people think tough love is the way to go, while others believe it is kindness and generosity. " 

 

- Exactly .  So if we take it to mean 'impure love' , then  the phrase makes no sense and leads one into difficulties and trouble .

 

" Crowely called Nietzsche a Saint, and Nietzsche believed we like adversity, to be denied things, and to be forced to earn them to prove to ourselves our strength and dominance.  "

 

- They seem to be referring to the above 'law', but also it's converse : there IS a law of 'universal attraction'  (for certain 'pairings' ) but there is also another ;  that which divides .  Gravity needed a 'Big Bang' in the first place to come into existence .  It operates in all things . Crowley also details this process in other writings , specifically when he refers to Nuit  and the love for unity and laments the process of separation , and asks why the separation in the first place . Nuit answers, in essence, that it is to make the Union even more 'juicy' and  separation being a "sauce to whet thy appetite " .

 

" If the law is do what thou wilt, then we don't have to act out of love.  We can act out of greed and selfishness. "

 

Well .... 'we' can do whatever we want .   Most people ARE driven by base desires ... no big surprise there .

 

The thing is 'we' , as a group are not ready for it , and to think so is to make yet another  'big miss' .  If we pay careful attention, this little philosophical gem actually urges us .... predictively  .....  ' Do what thou Wilt  shall be  the whole of the Law .'

 

Students of English will comprehend the' tense implications' in relation to 'Love is the Law Love under Will'     . 

[helpfuldemon]

Will is something beyond intelligence.  It is above the mind, and below it.  Crowley wanted us to be uninhibited, acting out of instinct, like an animal does.  This is not a cult of philosophy, or a church of Wisdom.  There are no laws here.  The mind is developed through other means.  Damn because!  The word of sin is restriction!  So how do you get to know your true will?  Experimentation.  Remember that this is the law of the strong, and the conqueror.  The joy of success shall be your proof!  Do what thou wilt, achieve!  Let God sort out whether you were good.

[Lairg]

10 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Let God sort out whether you were good.

 

Does God know about recycling?

 

That might explain why I keep being reborn on this 1st grade planet  

[helpfuldemon]

8 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

Does God know about recycling?

 

That might explain why I keep being reborn on this 1st grade planet  

Maybe you aren't ready to ascend?  Or maybe you chose to stay and help.

[helpfuldemon]

The essence of Crowley's religion is free will.  It's really that simple;  we are free to be and to do and to think and to feel what we like, and to react according to how that makes us believe.  We are free to fight for our beliefs, I assume that he took a page from the beloved Jews and Christians that fought and killed for their religion and values.  People say "Look what so and so did in the name of their faith"  Thelema is no different in text.  People in a Democracy are trying to avoid this though; there is a new current of morality.  But I'm not here to talk about the liberals, I want to address the God fearing people of Earth.  History, and personal experience, shows that God will do that which He will do, for His own reasons, and He will put us through what He wants to, for He is God.  We need someone like Jesus, born to mankind, tempted by man and God, to learn what it is like for us, for God does not know.  We need that intercession for the sake of earning God's mercy.  You may call this God illogical, or a demon, and that wouldn't be far off, for we want a God that makes sense and cares, but who can limit God and His Will towards Creation?  So what we are left with is the science of kindness and obedience in the form of Christianity, and it would be well advised to plead with God for mercy for yourself, and for all of us.  We are free, we can do what we will, and God will do the same; supporting or opposing those He watches.  

[helpfuldemon]

I have finally finished my comprehension of religion. I have studied what I could of Judaism, Buddhism, Christianity, and Thelema, and have concluded that all are valid. I believe we need Christianity more than anything, because our God does what He desires, and we are not meant to comprehend Him. I believe He is fair and that we all have a place in Heaven. I believe we need Saints to intercede for mercy, I believe Jesus is Holy, I believe we have free will to do what we will, and that we are free to love who we will, how we will, and why we will. I believe that mankind has a lesson to learn about killing, and I think that the liberal Democrats have it right. I pray for us, because my study indicates the end times are upon us, but only God will know that hour. Pray for me as I pray for you, my friends, and find love where you can, Amen.

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

The essence of Crowley's religion is free will.  It's really that simple;  we are free to be and to do and to think and to feel what we like, and to react according to how that makes us believe.  We are free to fight for our beliefs, I assume that he took a page from the beloved Jews and Christians that fought and killed for their religion and values.  People say "Look what so and so did in the name of their faith"  Thelema is no different in text.  People in a Democracy are trying to avoid this though; there is a new current of morality.  But I'm not here to talk about the liberals, I want to address the God fearing people of Earth.  History, and personal experience, shows that God will do that which He will do, for His own reasons, and He will put us through what He wants to, for He is God.  We need someone like Jesus, born to mankind, tempted by man and God, to learn what it is like for us, for God does not know.  We need that intercession for the sake of earning God's mercy.  You may call this God illogical, or a demon, and that wouldn't be far off, for we want a God that makes sense and cares, but who can limit God and His Will towards Creation?  So what we are left with is the science of kindness and obedience in the form of Christianity, and it would be well advised to plead with God for mercy for yourself, and for all of us.  We are free, we can do what we will, and God will do the same; supporting or opposing those He watches.  

 

No. You keep saying that and it is continually pointed out how that is the wrong interpretation - it is 'True Will,' not 'free will'  and what you say is not what the author meant at all , in fact you are touting the opposite of his intentions .  You know this but refuse to accept it .

 

Which seems to be  your  ' free will  '   ... for some reason .

[Michael Sternbach]

On 16.8.2022 at 9:20 AM, helpfuldemon said:

 

You would think it would be simple to act with love. 

 

No. Noone said it was easy.

 

Quote

Doing things out of love, if love is the law.  But if the law is freedom, then we don't have to act with love, do we? 

 

Is it easy to act with freedom?

 

Quote

We are free to act with whatever Will we desire. 

 

With the True Will - not "whatever Will"! You will find that what the True Will wills constantly has to do with Love in one form or another.

 

Quote

But we don't all agree on what a loving act is, do we?  Some people think tough love is the way to go, while others believe it is kindness and generosity.

 

Crowley's guide lines refer to general principles, not to the specifics of their application. 

 

Quote

Crowely called Nietzsche a Saint, and Nietzsche believed we like adversity, to be denied things, and to be forced to earn them to prove to ourselves our strength and dominance.

 

Not quite sure how this fits into this topic, but it is actually an interesting consideration in its own right!

 

Quote

  If the law is do what thou wilt, then we don't have to act out of love.  We can act out of greed and selfishness.  

 

This misconception is not a new one. When - already in his own day - Crowley saw some young Thelemites interpreting those lines from the Book of the Law the way you suggested, he was seriously dissatisfied with their level of understanding. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Michael Sternbach
Word correction

[helpfuldemon]

You keep saying "True Will" and I keep saying free will.  So tell me, how do you find this elusive "True Will"?   How is it different from free will?  What tools did Crowely give us to find the "True Will"?  And, if there is a "True Will", how can there be any individuality?  For if there was a "True Will", then certainly all would act accordingly.  

[Lairg]

From my observation of the post-mortem AC, he was not nearly as good as he told his followers.

 

Meanwhile, third stage enlightenment requires the initiate to learn internal control of atma, the first plane on which the departing human can generate pure Intent.  It is pure relative to Earth humans, but not pure relative to the solar system, being contaminated by planetary and solar systemic karma etc

 

https://www.dkwritings.com/chart4.html

 

As to free will, it might be a matter of the River of Life taking us to the Cosmic Ocean.  We can choose to look where we are going and perhaps dodge some obstacles.  Equally we are free to face the other way - and have a somewhat rougher trip to the same outflow.

Edited August 18, 2022 by Lairg

[helpfuldemon]

11 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

You keep saying "True Will" and I keep saying free will.  So tell me, how do you find this elusive "True Will"?   How is it different from free will?  What tools did Crowely give us to find the "True Will"?  And, if there is a "True Will", how can there be any individuality?  For if there was a "True Will", then certainly all would act accordingly.  

 

See, no one has been able to contradict what I say here.  If there is such a thing as "True Will", then there is only One Will, and if there is One Will, then all those that know it will act the same, and that isn't how Crowely presents it.  If there isn't One Will, then there are a plethora of Will, and that means free will prevails, for every person has their own Will, and does what they will.  

[Lairg]

9 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

If there is such a thing as "True Will", then there is only One Will

 

Unless it is delegated into the various universes

[Nungali]

22 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

You keep saying "True Will" and I keep saying free will.  So tell me, how do you find this elusive "True Will"?   How is it different from free will?  What tools did Crowely give us to find the "True Will"?  And, if there is a "True Will", how can there be any individuality?  For if there was a "True Will", then certainly all would act accordingly.  

 

What a strange question for someone who previously claimd to have read all of his books !  How could you have missed it ? Its his central precept ! And these questions have already been answered here ... in great length and even compared to the original doctrine in Zoroastrianism and that has been explained extensively as well . 

 

How could you have 'missed '  all of that  ?

 

or, have you just not been paying attention or been blinded by your own insistent prejudicial way at looking at it ?

 

 

here is another quote of crowley's for you to contemplate ; 

 

" Nevertheless have the greatest self-respect, and to that end sin not against thyself. The sin which is unpardonable is knowingly and wilfully to reject truth, to fear knowledge lest that knowledge pander not to thy prejudices. "

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

See, no one has been able to contradict what I say here.  If there is such a thing as "True Will", then there is only One Will, and if there is One Will, then all those that know it will act the same, and that isn't how Crowely presents it.  If there isn't One Will, then there are a plethora of Will, and that means free will prevails, for every person has their own Will, and does what they will.  

 

People have been constantly contradicting what you say here !  Now it seems as if your eye sight is failing as well .

 

You keep starting these crazy ideas of yours with a postulation .... 'if '  .... then go on to assume your 'if ' is factual and then run from there ; with your complaints, outcrys and confusions . 

 

Why on earth , on a world with such blindingly kaleidoscopic diversity  would all the humans have one will  ?    Where on earth did that idea  come from ?

 

You say  IF there was one will  all should act the same , but that isnt how Crowley presented it .   We could list a hundred things and say ' IF they were that, that is not the way Crowley presented it . 

 

You come up with the lamest ideas  yourself , due to faulty perceptions and and other issues ......   and    criticise Crowley for it !

 

 

 

 

[helpfuldemon]

Every Will is True, until you realize it's not.  When you come to the point of knowing no further truth, then you could say you have True Will, but to someone else, it might be false action.  Who is to say what is "True Will"?  Will is what we believe, and so if your beliefs are in line with what you are doing, it is True.  Now, if you adopt Crowley's morality system, then you see that liberty is the rule for his morals, and so you could say that any Will that allows for liberty is True, hence you have free will.  There are probably things he would advise against doing, but as a Neophyte, we are free to do what we will to learn our Wills.  Where does he draw the line with action?  He said "The word of Sin is restriction".  So what can't we do with our Will?  IDK, but if love is the law, then I'd say that anything that harms or is against love is a Sin, but then you'd wind up with Christianity, and he hated Christianity.  So where does Crowley draw the line?  I don't think he did, or does.  I think if it is your Will, you are free to do it, and thus, there is no True Will, other than the self imposed restrictions we place upon ourselves.

[helpfuldemon]

The point of the GD, and Magick, is to educate ones self to the point where you are no longer performing acts that go against your self.  It is the hope that the candidate enlightens themselves, and that if all people do it, then an end to ignorance.  It is an alternative to religion.  Why did we need an alternative?  Because people believed the religions to be too restrictive or incomplete in knowledge.  If one follows Christianity, they find that there is no defense against Evil.  The Jews and the Muslims at least believe in punishment and retaliation.  So does Thelema.  The GD doesn't really address these issues, but one could suppose that as the magician climbs their school they realize that they need to act against ignorance.  What is ignorance?  It is when a person harms another person unjustly.  People object to my declaring Thelema to be about free will probably because they see it as justifying ignorant action.  That isn't what I am doing, but knowing that free will exists enlightens me to realize that people do ignorant things, and that the only one to stop them is us.  So what is the hope of Thelema?  It was to create mini enlightenments, and perhaps a new system that makes sense for the new Age of freedom that magicians hope for.  We want to be free to do what needs to be done for the advancement of happiness and the human race.  The history of mankind is filled with unjust actions and wars, but in order to advance a society that has its hand on innovation, they have happened, another reason why the Law is Do What Thou Wilt.  Crowley hoped that if all people did their Will, and knew what they were doing, that there would be harmony.  That is ridiculous.  There is no stopping ignorance, for all people are at any level of understanding and desire, and all people will find a way to do what they believe needs to be done.  Championing liberty that is just is a good start to where Thelema comes in, but this idea that there is a True Will to each individual just promotes the idea of free will; there has to be One Will that is just.  As I said, all Will is True until the doer disproves it to themselves, and all people will disagree with just action because we vary so much in knowledge and desire.  The most we can hope from Magick is that we will open doors to what is just in the name of liberty, and one day all people will be on the same page as far as what we are able to do that is fair.  

Edited August 20, 2022 by helpfuldemon

[Michael Sternbach]

On 18.8.2022 at 1:57 AM, helpfuldemon said:

You keep saying "True Will" and I keep saying free will.  So tell me, how do you find this elusive "True Will"?   How is it different from free will? 

 

Free will is simply the ability to choose A over B. The concept of True Will is based on the 'assumption' that you have (or are) a Self that exists beyond what most people identify as their personality.

 

So True Will ties in with your True Self, whose purpose goes beyond the aims of the egotistical personality.

 

On 18.8.2022 at 1:57 AM, helpfuldemon said:

What tools did Crowely give us to find the "True Will"?

 

There are no hard and fast rules. Finding your True Will may take many forms and often presupposes an inner process.

 

It would be no exaggeration to say that finding the True Will is central to Crowley's whole work.

 

On 18.8.2022 at 1:57 AM, helpfuldemon said:

And, if there is a "True Will", how can there be any individuality? 

 

Au contraire! The True Will expresses the True Self, which is the very core of your individuality. 

 

On 18.8.2022 at 1:57 AM, helpfuldemon said:

For if there was a "True Will", then certainly all would act accordingly.  

 

This is not so. Rather, all those who  actually follow their True Will (for it is your free will not to do so!) play their individual role in the Universal Whole to the utmost degree.

 

The Whole needs its agents not only to act in very different areas, but sometimes even in apparent contradiction to one another; for balance and so that all sides of an issue could be worked out.

[helpfuldemon]

So give me some examples of True Will.

 

What is beyond the egotistical personality?

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Being kind is not true kindness. being loving is not true loving. It is the being of self getting in the way of true understanding.

 

Wu Wei is one expression of this understanding. Without knowing one is kind or trying to be kind and all actions from the true will manifest as kindness without want or need of something in return. Then we get to graduate  from our impermanence of body and mentality.

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

56 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

So give me some examples of True Will.

 

Your True Will could be to live in a different place. But the egotistical personality might hold you back due to fears or not wishing to leave its comfort zone.

 

In this case, Crowley's advice would be to follow your vision regardless.

 

56 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

What is beyond the egotistical personality?

 

Your Self.

[Michael Sternbach]

36 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Being kind is not true kindness. being loving is not true loving. It is the being of self getting in the way of true understanding.

 

Wu Wei is one expression of this understanding. Without knowing one is kind or trying to be kind and all actions from the true will manifest as kindness without want or need of something in return. Then we get to graduate  from our impermanence of body and mentality.

 

I think it starts with being one with your actions. Letting go of the doubts that often hold us back. To do what you do.

 

Which is another interpretation of "do what thou wilt." 😊

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Free will is simply the ability to choose A over B. The concept of True Will is based on the 'assumption' that you have (or are) a Self that exists beyond what most people identify as their personality.

 

So True Will ties in with your True Self, whose purpose goes beyond the aims of the egotistical personality.

 

here, our helpful demon asks  : " What tools did Crowely give us to find the "True Will"?  "

 

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

There are no hard and fast rules. Finding your True Will may take many forms and often presupposes an inner process.

 

This is a fair answer, but the other answer is ;  he either left no tools ( for the 'outsider' ) or he left a wealth of tools (if one will choose to undertake training )  .  As you say ' many forms ' and 'an inner process' . This is the process of the series of initiations all designed to illuminate and bring to realisation such things as  True Will, True Self and what lies beyond  ' he aims of the egotistical personality' .

 

Eventually, according to Crowley, within his system , after a certain level of initiation with realisation,  Do  what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law, changes into  Do what thou Wilt IS the whole of the Law .  Humanity and most individuals are looong way from that  yet .

 

But all through his writings are hints and indications  of processes  that help .  One of the first is remembering and recognising past lives  ... to get a bigger picture of your ' dhama / kharma , also in rather obscure documents eg . great stuff about it in writings (again in obscure sources ) about bringing up children  and being observant of any hints they show and offering full encouragement in such directions ( replete with warnings to the parents  about projections of self on to them ) ... there are many more .

 

But in this situation ... a thread like this , it seems better  deal with the 'primary emergency '  present .   For now, we have to tourniquet  this severed leg  ..... antibiotics ca be administered later .    

 

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

It would be no exaggeration to say that finding the True Will is central to Crowley's whole work.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

Au contraire! The True Will expresses the True Self, which is the very core of your individuality. 

 

Its rather essential to any type of society forming     , its also the basic precept of its manifestation in Zoroastrianism ( via the principle of Khvarenah ) - this respect of individuality , it marked their societies right through until the Persian Empire, where people like Cyrus and the system encouraged diversity , ethnicity, other religions and philosophies and did not try  to force others into their own same mould . This still continues today , in that stream , with the Baha'i Faith ; 'Unity in Diversity' .

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

This is not so. Rather, all those who  actually follow their True Will (for it is your free will not to do so!) play their individual role in the Universal Whole to the utmost degree.

 

The Whole needs its agents not only to act in very different areas, but sometimes even in apparent contradiction to one another; for balance and so that all sides of an issue could be worked out.

 

 

Yeah .  Anyway ... you can field these ones  .   I am finding this all rather cyclic ;  certain people seem to come to a realisation but then a week later they are back on the same track they where before their 'realisation'

 

< insert dog chaising tail gif here >

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

So give me some examples of True Will.

 

Being a mother .

 

Does that surprise you ?

 

Or a helicopter engineer , or  painter ,  or  simply a 'wanderer' ... a 'traveller in time and space ' , a nurse, a ..... bodhisattva . Or conversely, a new born spirit that desires to learn and grow .

 

But you know all this ... as you have read all of Crowley's works ... as you previously assured me .

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

 

What is beyond the egotistical personality?

 

 

 

 

The True Will .