Do What Thou Wilt

[old3bob]

more teachings from luciferin pawns, how clever just co-opt some names and various teachings from history and cultures, add some half truths and some interestingly seductive promises, methods and results of this and that about will, and bingo you have sorcery veiled as some kind of enticing "magic")

[helpfuldemon]

Do what thou wilt is the freedom to use free will to gain experiences, with the hope that it builds wisdom.  It is the door to opening new things available to mankind to do.

[Nungali]

18 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’m not a fan of good works myself, far too easy for exactly this ^ to be the driving force. 

 

is there something wrong with that ?

 

You would do good, someone else would benefit , now you feel better . Isnt that a win win  ? .

 

You dont strike as a masochist or a person racked with guilt that needs to 'sacrifice'  for others , or any of that stuff  ...... have I missed something here ?

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Yes I have contemplated these questions and have come to my own conclusions, though I am open to alternative conclusions given increased understanding. I don’t think though that these are the most fundamental questions I am concerned about, and regarding ‘Will’ as long as my will is aligned with my truly greatest good, it’s also not something I spend too much time on. I am more preoccupied with the workings of Yin and Yang within myself, and lately the nature of the inner or spirit child within. 

 

 

 

And I would NOT venture to say  that the above is NOT your own True Will .  Some are here to learn compassion , others, to receive it .

 

Some are here to heal and some to, perhaps, offer opportunity for them to healers to learn .  Some are here to help us value possessions and others  here to help us realise material acquirements are transitory . Some are here to help with tecnical advancement and innovations , others are here to help us appreciate nature  .... some are lucky enough to find a job that encompasses their paths ... imagine getting paid to do that !  Some do .

 

And just to annoy 'Old Bob'   I will quote Crowley  :

 

" Such is a brief outline of the government of the O.T.O. It combines monarchy with democracy; it includes aristocracy, and conceals even the seeds of revolution, by which alone progress can be effected. Thus we balance the Triads, uniting the Three in One; thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe--See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren! "

 

 

( and I might add .... where is the nastiness and wickedness and all the negative Crowley stuff , in this passage ?  )

 

 

" 

[Nungali]

16 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

I don't really care for arguing with Nungali about my interpretation of free will and True Will.  At this point I could probably repeat what he says and he'd still say I was wrong.  

 

No, not really because  ......  

 

 

 

  

 

-  yet in another thread today, you said how you had learned from  arguig with me and it helped refine your ideas more .

 

You are a bit of a 'to and fro' guy aren't ya ?

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, mcoolio said:

Okay guys,

 

So what do I have to do to see my own personal 'true' will?

 

 

hang on ... I gotta pick myself up first ... from falling over .

 

MY GOD !  Someone actually asked the relevant question ! 

 

I'll get back to you on this  ( I go online , study, research, write from pre dawn till sunup .. sun is up , nice day . outside, chores, sunlight, farm work and road repairs await  ...  and the tractor has broken down  .... Eee - I - ee -ee- oh .

 

I'll get back to you later .

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

Don't ask, it's a neurotic concept.  Just do what you believe you should do, monitor the results and make adjustments to your actions according to the outcome.

 

I love the way  YOU claimed its neurosis . 

 

 

 

PS . Dont listen to that folks ... he is a demon pretending to be helpful      

 

 

.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Nungali

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, old3bob said:

more teachings from luciferin pawns, how clever just co-opt some names and various teachings from history and cultures, add some half truths and some interestingly seductive promises, methods and results of this and that about will, and bingo you have sorcery veiled as some kind of enticing "magic")

 

Lucifer was the light bringer , the dawning of Venus, the bringer of knowledge and illumination ... way before you Christian dudes got jealous and tried to smear him with your own shit .

 

besides old Bob , you spat the dummy earlier in this converse  (after offering no substantial contribution of any tye, nor any understanding of the subject, nor indeed of hermetics itself  ) and declared you where out of such a discussion .

 

yet here you are again , throwing shit from the sidelines and offering nothing substantial again .. then running off .

 

Even you would realise how lame that is .

 

As much as your ilk will not like this ... it undeniable :

 

" Perhaps no one single person has had such widespread influence on modern magic ,  the countercultural turns of the 20th century, and probably the most renown of magical and occult writers of the 20th Century  as Cambridge-educated occultist Aleister Crowley. "

 

That alone should warrant any serious students interest . And surprise surprise that an in depth investigation into hermetics, the history of magic and occultism should have looked into any 'Black Arts '  ...... tut tut tut !

[Bindi]

26 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

is there something wrong with that ?

 

You would do good, someone else would benefit , now you feel better . Isnt that a win win  ? .

 

You dont strike as a masochist or a person racked with guilt that needs to 'sacrifice'  for others , or any of that stuff  ...... have I missed something here ?

I don’t think the point is to feel better, in fact feeling better is more likely to distract from what is truly necessary. To me the important work is entirely within, in my terms correcting the subtle energy system, which isn’t achieved by good works, no matter how much better it can make me or another person feel. Besides, if the normal lower mind is the one making the helping decisions, chances are high that it’s going to be the wrong thing to do anyway, because the normal mind is too limited to see the big picture. There are a couple of stories about unintended consequences when trying to do good, one about a monk keeping a deer alive with his healing energy, until the deer finally pleads ‘please just let me die’, another about someone changing the weather to save a ship, but causing a disaster further along the chain. The Christian ideal is to love thy neighbour, but how often has this been an outward show, while abusing others behind closed doors? The good works count for nothing, better to root out the abusive nature within. 
 

I would make one concession, I do believe ultimately that thinking of others and loving others is the ideal, but I would take these as yardsticks by which to assess myself, measuring how close I am to doing this naturally, as opposed to imposing these traits as ideals to strive for. 

[helpfuldemon]

53 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Lucifer was the light bringer , the dawning of Venus, the bringer of knowledge and illumination ... way before you Christian dudes got jealous and tried to smear him with your own shit .

 

besides old Bob , you spat the dummy earlier in this converse  (after offering no substantial contribution of any tye, nor any understanding of the subject, nor indeed of hermetics itself  ) and declared you where out of such a discussion .

 

yet here you are again , throwing shit from the sidelines and offering nothing substantial again .. then running off .

 

Even you would realise how lame that is .

 

As much as your ilk will not like this ... it undeniable :

 

" Perhaps no one single person has had such widespread influence on modern magic ,  the countercultural turns of the 20th century, and probably the most renown of magical and occult writers of the 20th Century  as Cambridge-educated occultist Aleister Crowley. "

 

That alone should warrant any serious students interest . And surprise surprise that an in depth investigation into hermetics, the history of magic and occultism should have looked into any 'Black Arts '  ...... tut tut tut !

And do you think his influence on the counter culture has made things better, or worse?  Sexual promiscuity has risen, drug use has risen, breeding single parent homes and abortion.  Who knows how it affected crime and violence.

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

I don’t think the point is to feel better, in fact feeling better is more likely to distract from what is truly necessary. To me the important work is entirely within, in my terms correcting the subtle energy system, which isn’t achieved by good works, no matter how much better it can make me or another person feel. Besides, if the normal lower mind is the one making the helping decisions, chances are high that it’s going to be the wrong thing to do anyway, because the normal mind is too limited to see the big picture. There are a couple of stories about unintended consequences when trying to do good, one about a monk keeping a deer alive with his healing energy, until the deer finally pleads ‘please just let me die’, another about someone changing the weather to save a ship, but causing a disaster further along the chain. The Christian ideal is to love thy neighbour, but how often has this been an outward show, while abusing others behind closed doors? The good works count for nothing, better to root out the abusive nature within. 
 

I would make one concession, I do believe ultimately that thinking of others and loving others is the ideal, but I would take these as yardsticks by which to assess myself, measuring how close I am to doing this naturally, as opposed to imposing these traits as ideals to strive for. 

 

Thats the kind of thinking Crowley copped it for !   In many circumstances I agree with it .

 

I remember a story from some Thelemites  let's say, in this case they where people with similar sentiments ) and it was around this very subject . They where talking about a junkie friend that kept messing up, near OD ing , no money etc . pick him up out the gutter and 'reform him' . After the third attempt he told them to F off " Dont you realise I WANT to be a junkie ?  You are trying to turn me into something you think I should be . "   And they did  ... and in retrospect agreed with him .

 

That, and other 'feedback' led me to change the  'Do unto others ' thing   to ' Do unto others  , as they would have you do unto them.'

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, helpfuldemon said:

And do you think his influence on the counter culture has made things better, or worse?  Sexual promiscuity has risen, drug use has risen, breeding single parent homes and abortion.  Who knows how it affected crime and violence.

 

I think it was  passing interest , many more where there and a LOT stronger .  We could also crucify Leary , Huxley,   etc etc .

 

Perhaps the Vietnam War had a tiny influence ? 

 

I guess drug use has risen .... the pharmaceutical companies  are doing well .  Sydney Harbour is full of pain killers and anti-depressants.   If you mean illeagal drugs ... maybe that too ... but the British DID push a LOT of opium into China before Crowley's time  ( Then got outraged at him for sampling  drugs  ) . And back then cocaine wasnt even illegal , it was marketed , so can  we count that as an 'illegal' back then .  

 

I dont think its such a clear case of 'Crowley's fault' , hmmmmm ?

 

Anyway, enough about nasty old drugs eh .... ( especially those natural ones ... that no one here would ever take ....  ) 

 

let's get on to the more serious matter of  ........

 

 

 

 

 

sexual promiscuity  ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sexual promiscuity warning !

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Nungali

[helpfuldemon]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

is there something wrong with that ?

 

You would do good, someone else would benefit , now you feel better . Isnt that a win win  ? .

 

You dont strike as a masochist or a person racked with guilt that needs to 'sacrifice'  for others , or any of that stuff  ...... have I missed something here ?

I don't help people to feel good, I do it because it's the right thing to do.

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I don't help people to feel good, I do it because it's the right thing to do.

 

Good !  

 

How does 'doing the right thing to do' make you feel ?

[helpfuldemon]

30 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

Good !  

 

How does 'doing the right thing to do' make you feel ?

That depends.  If it involves self sacrifice, I usually feel pained.  I'm a bit of a stoic though.

[helpfuldemon]

I've concluded that life is joy and sorrow, and the other emotions come from these two.  I don't feel the joy side much.  

[Lairg]

32 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said:

I don't feel the joy side much.  

 

In my view, happiness is of the personality and joy is of the soul.

[helpfuldemon]

1 hour ago, Lairg said:

 

In my view, happiness is of the personality and joy is of the soul.

That fits.  I think we feel joy and then realize love, and then happiness.  I think we feel sorrow and then get angry.

[old3bob]

Lucifer is fallen, now dark prince of demons;  so no spin on sorcery or his being make him a light bearer now. 

Beware of pacific beach property for sale in Arizona...

[zerostao]

25 minutes ago, old3bob said:

Lucifer is fallen, now dark prince of demons;  so no spin on sorcery or his being make him a light bearer now. 

Beware of pacific beach property for sale in Arizona...

 

o3b, you do not indulge in any form of sorcery ? some are more subtle than others.

my bagua play is absolutely sorcery, i dont consider it demonic, except in a way that expels demons, the ones within us. and all of us have them.

Then there is an idea that yinyang is also represented by both wolves. some choose to feed both maintaining a balance.

then there are those who never tame their demons and prefer to keep them on a leash.

[zerostao]

5 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Good !  

 

How does 'doing the right thing to do' make you feel ?

 

doing the right thing feels good and is rewarded, though, doing the right thing isn't seeking reward, its the doing the right thing for its sake alone. and is a reward of its own, and finds synchronicity, harmony in Dao

and it is 

Good!

[zerostao]

7 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

 

 

Sexual promiscuity warning !

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

.

 

Nungali.

 

I just wanted to take this moment to express my gratitude to you for your continued contributions to this forum;

keeping the discussions on the way engaged, insightful, quirky.

 

Spoiler

I know we've butted heads here and there along the way. Iron sharpens Iron. 

 

 

 

 

[old3bob]

1 hour ago, zerostao said:

 

o3b, you do not indulge in any form of sorcery ? some are more subtle than others.

my bagua play is absolutely sorcery, i dont consider it demonic, except in a way that expels demons, the ones within us. and all of us have them.

Then there is an idea that yinyang is also represented by both wolves. some choose to feed both maintaining a balance.

then there are those who never tame their demons and prefer to keep them on a leash.

 

yea some are more subtle than others,  but all forms of sorcery are more or less willful misuse of energies thus are of demonic natures ranging from the first  through the seventh hells.  Btw such is both within as you say and also without;  and any deal made to feed or keep such forces on a leash for whatever purpose is a losing proposition.

I don't see the "magic" of spiritual truth, Christ divinity and the law of and for the greater good to protect against demons as sorcery per its common meaning. 

[Bindi]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Thats the kind of thinking Crowley copped it for !   In many circumstances I agree with it .

 

I remember a story from some Thelemites  let's say, in this case they where people with similar sentiments ) and it was around this very subject . They where talking about a junkie friend that kept messing up, near OD ing , no money etc . pick him up out the gutter and 'reform him' . After the third attempt he told them to F off " Dont you realise I WANT to be a junkie ?  You are trying to turn me into something you think I should be . "   And they did  ... and in retrospect agreed with him .

 

That, and other 'feedback' led me to change the  'Do unto others ' thing   to ' Do unto others  , as they would have you do unto them.'

 

There might be quite a few perspectives that Crowley had that also interest me, I think the difference is that he externalised the search. For example seeking the yin/yang dynamic within versus seeking it in ritual sex magic. 

[Nungali]

On 21/08/2022 at 9:05 PM, mcoolio said:

Okay guys,

 

So what do I have to do to see my own personal 'true' will?

 

 

Okay . Lets run a little experiment   , if Mr McOolio doesnt mind  ( you did ask after all ) , it something we did a few times in our group . It requires feedback so you will have to play along with me .

 

Ideally 'to see' ... let's just say  to know  .... to know your True Will first this should start before you  ... hopefully your parents had been educated about it or enlightened enough to realise the principle themselves  and do what is required to help you find it .

 

There is a lot of detail about this and Crowley did write about it  as  supplemental material to the Baptism rituals of the Gnostic Catholic Church and in other places , instructing parents in 'Thelemic childrearing '  ( yes yes, I know ; 'What would HE know about that ! ?  - fair comment but one should go by the text and then evaluate that )  , specifically in 'The Rights of Children ' document .  But thats fr adults and  differnt subject . But ideally , first, one would hope that is in place .

 

Now the self . Secondly, before I ask any questions ,  mcoolio , are you familiar with the subject and have you read what I posted comparing Crowley's concept of the True Will with the concept of Zoroastrian  khvarenah ?