Nungali Posted August 22, 2022 7 hours ago, zerostao said: Nungali. I just wanted to take this moment to express my gratitude to you for your continued contributions to this forum; keeping the discussions on the way engaged, insightful, quirky. Hide contents I know we've butted heads here and there along the way. Iron sharpens Iron. Well ..... I was born in the year of the goat 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 22, 2022 8 hours ago, old3bob said: Lucifer is fallen, now dark prince of demons; so no spin on sorcery or his being make him a light bearer now. But that's just the Christian version based on a single passage in issiah ; ' Many Christians believe the Devil was once a beautiful angel named Lucifer who defied God and fell from grace. This assumption that he is a fallen angel is often based the book of Isaiah in the Bible, which says, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! " Dont you even know where your own indoctrinations come from ? And in case you didnt realise , Lucifer ( Venus ) falls every evening . The light rises and the light sets ..... not that complex . But let's run with your mythology ; No ... he didnt 'fall' he was pushed ..... thrown out of heaven for not bowing down to Man .... God's latest faulty production. You'd be pissed and be a trouble maker too, if it happened to you . Ware, nor of good nor ill, what aim hath act? Without its climax, death, what savour hath Life? an impeccable machine, exact He paces an inane and pointless path To glut brute appetites, his sole content How tedious were he fit to comprehend Himself! More, this our noble element Of fire in nature, love in spirit, unkenned Life hath no spring, no axle, and no end. His body a bloody-ruby radiant With noble passion, sun-souled Lucifer Swept through the dawn colossal, swift aslant On Eden's imbecile perimeter. He blessed nonentity with every curse And spiced with sorrow the dull soul of sense, Breathed life into the sterile universe, With Love and Knowledge drove out innocence The Key of Joy is disobedience. 8 hours ago, old3bob said: Beware of pacific beach property for sale in Arizona... yeah ... I agree, you Americans will try anything to get money ! Like the beach properties you guys had in the Californian desert ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 22, 2022 6 hours ago, old3bob said: yea some are more subtle than others, but all forms of sorcery are more or less willful misuse of energies thus are of demonic natures ranging from the first through the seventh hells. Btw such is both within as you say and also without; and any deal made to feed or keep such forces on a leash for whatever purpose is a losing proposition. I don't see the "magic" of spiritual truth, Christ divinity and the law of and for the greater good to protect against demons as sorcery per its common meaning. Well, I dont see it that way . 'keeping such forces on a leash ' . The forces are inside us , connected to us, making up part of our psyche . We have had some since birth and developed some after . You can try to banish and push them away and try to subdue them by force .... you can try . But Magick should be about integrating those forces within you , taking control, using your 'king' aspect as a wise and benevolent ruler of yourself ... taming your 'demons' and 'inner wild dogs' . Not capturing some wild dingo and trying to leash it and get it to conform to your base desires . No wonder you dont approve ! You have entirely the wrong perspective on it . 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Nungali said: But that's just the Christian version based on a single passage in issiah ; ' Many Christians believe the Devil was once a beautiful angel named Lucifer who defied God and fell from grace. This assumption that he is a fallen angel is often based the book of Isaiah in the Bible, which says, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! " Dont you even know where your own indoctrinations come from ? And in case you didnt realise , Lucifer ( Venus ) falls every evening . The light rises and the light sets ..... not that complex . But let's run with your mythology ; No ... he didnt 'fall' he was pushed ..... thrown out of heaven for not bowing down to Man .... God's latest faulty production. You'd be pissed and be a trouble maker too, if it happened to you . Ware, nor of good nor ill, what aim hath act? Without its climax, death, what savour hath Life? an impeccable machine, exact He paces an inane and pointless path To glut brute appetites, his sole content How tedious were he fit to comprehend Himself! More, this our noble element Of fire in nature, love in spirit, unkenned Life hath no spring, no axle, and no end. His body a bloody-ruby radiant With noble passion, sun-souled Lucifer Swept through the dawn colossal, swift aslant On Eden's imbecile perimeter. He blessed nonentity with every curse And spiced with sorrow the dull soul of sense, Breathed life into the sterile universe, With Love and Knowledge drove out innocence The Key of Joy is disobedience. yeah ... I agree, you Americans will try anything to get money ! Like the beach properties you guys had in the Californian desert ? I believe the Christian version is that Satan wanted to be like God, and he was kicked out of heaven because of this: Isaiah 14:12, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars [angels] of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon; I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High." As far as I know there is no reference in the entire Bible where God asks the angels to bow down to man and that Satan refused. The request that angels bow down to Adam was however mentioned in the Koran, which occasionally presents a garbled Christian story “…And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis (Lucifer)…” Edited August 22, 2022 by Bindi 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 23, 2022 Yeah, that was probably it . We would not want to 'stray' into what 'another religion' said about it . Butt because I am a curious goaty , I peeked ; https://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! and similar all through the different version that site quotes . It's interesting because , is this 'one' addressed as Lucifer, the one later identified as Satan, Devil, etc . ? Especially when we get to an extended version of the passage ; “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, You who have weakened the nations [king of Babylon]! or even moreso ; " Context Downfall of the King of Babylon …11Your pomp has been brought down to Sheol, along with the music of your harps. Maggots are your bed and worms your blanket. 12How you have fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations. 13You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north.… Berean Study Bible · Download Is Isaiah talking to / about the King of Babylon here ? This would not be a prophecy about the fall of Babylon , would it ? Sometimes it helps to read other parts of a story to get the context of a single passage ... or even a single passage from the start might help : I suggest reading the first four , for a start . " you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! " Isaiah 14:4. In other words ' let's taunt the king that oppresses us , he will fall , he was like Lucifer rising in the east, but he has fallen , he tried to rise to heaven and make himself like God , he oppressed the nations ... etc . The far better part is towards the end when that 'whore woman' defeats the power of the (corrupt) 'religious' power brokers . She's the 'real devil' of the story Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bindi Posted August 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Nungali said: Yeah, that was probably it . We would not want to 'stray' into what 'another religion' said about it . Butt because I am a curious goaty , I peeked ; https://biblehub.com/isaiah/14-12.htm How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! and similar all through the different version that site quotes . It's interesting because , is this 'one' addressed as Lucifer, the one later identified as Satan, Devil, etc . ? Especially when we get to an extended version of the passage ; “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning [light-bringer], son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, You who have weakened the nations [king of Babylon]! or even moreso ; " Context Downfall of the King of Babylon …11Your pomp has been brought down to Sheol, along with the music of your harps. Maggots are your bed and worms your blanket. 12How you have fallen from heaven, O day star, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the ground, O destroyer of nations. 13You said in your heart: “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God. I will sit on the mount of assembly, in the far reaches of the north.… Berean Study Bible · Download Is Isaiah talking to / about the King of Babylon here ? This would not be a prophecy about the fall of Babylon , would it ? Sometimes it helps to read other parts of a story to get the context of a single passage ... or even a single passage from the start might help : I suggest reading the first four , for a start . " you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has come to an end! How his fury has ended! " Isaiah 14:4. In other words ' let's taunt the king that oppresses us , he will fall , he was like Lucifer rising in the east, but he has fallen , he tried to rise to heaven and make himself like God , he oppressed the nations ... etc . The far better part is towards the end when that 'whore woman' defeats the power of the (corrupt) 'religious' power brokers . She's the 'real devil' of the story Re the passage I quoted, which was actually Isiah 12:13 (my mistake) I note this comment from https://biblehub.com/commentaries/kad/isaiah/14.htm Lucifer, as a name given to the devil, was derived from this passage, which the fathers (and lately Stier) interpreted, without any warrant whatever, as relating to the apostasy and punishment of the angelic leaders. The appellation is [however] a perfectly appropriate one for the king of Babel. So yes it seems to have been about a king and comparing him to Venus the morning star, but in the Christian context it somehow shadows and became equivalent to the fall of Satan. It pays to be goaty 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 23, 2022 Oh damn ! That ^ should have been Spoiler A funny story : One has to be careful what one thinks about the devil . On the old Tarot Forum, this card was being discussed by the (mostly ) 'nice old tarot ladies' One noted ; " What's that between the goat's legs ! ? " Another : " Is that the goat's penis ? " Another ; " Not unless a goat has two penises ." I thought it was time I contributed to the conversation and cleared things up . " Yes they do . Have you lot not noticed ? No one here from a farm ? " " but they look like little snakes . " me: "Yeah, I suppose they kinda do, they twist like that too. " Replies where : " Really ? ... No, they dont , do they ??? ... But that would mean ....... And ( tee hee ) imagine if ..... " And it got worse ..... those ' nice old Tarot ladies' ! - it was enough to have made Aleister Crowley blush ! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcoolio Posted August 23, 2022 23 hours ago, Nungali said: Ideally 'to see' ... let's just say to know .... to know your True Will first this should start before you ... hopefully your parents had been educated about it or enlightened enough to realise the principle themselves and do what is required to help you find it . There is a lot of detail about this and Crowley did write about it as supplemental material to the Baptism rituals of the Gnostic Catholic Church and in other places , instructing parents in 'Thelemic childrearing ' ( yes yes, I know ; 'What would HE know about that ! ? - fair comment but one should go by the text and then evaluate that ) , specifically in 'The Rights of Children ' document . But thats fr adults and differnt subject . But ideally , first, one would hope that is in place . Now the self . Secondly, before I ask any questions , mcoolio , are you familiar with the subject and have you read what I posted comparing Crowley's concept of the True Will with the concept of Zoroastrian khvarenah ? I was lucky with my parents. So that should be good. (although I'm curious how we would proceed if that wouldn't be the case). You seem to refer to a post where you explicitly compare these concepts. Didn't find that. But did read some of your posts. Seems like it's kinda the idea of finding and living according to your destiny/calling something something. The Khvarenah seems to be more or less the same thing and involved in the formation of some guardian angel like thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 24, 2022 9 hours ago, mcoolio said: I was lucky with my parents. So that should be good. (although I'm curious how we would proceed if that wouldn't be the case). Good. That gives you a head start . If it where not the case , proceed the same way ... it might be easier or harder . 9 hours ago, mcoolio said: You seem to refer to a post where you explicitly compare these concepts. Didn't find that. Okay, I guess I will have to go searching for it and then post it here - to give a clear concept at the beginning 9 hours ago, mcoolio said: But did read some of your posts. Seems like it's kinda the idea of finding and living according to your destiny/calling something something. .... and something . 9 hours ago, mcoolio said: The Khvarenah seems to be more or less the same thing and involved in the formation of some guardian angel like thing. Yes. But the 'formation of some guardian angel like thing ' is a bit different from exploring what one's True Will might be. The two concepts are crucially connected, but for now, to explore that might complicate things . 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcoolio Posted August 24, 2022 (edited) Cool! Aside from that experiment this was a line that caught my eye The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. And this makes me think about the 'true will' of people like Trump, Putin, Hitler, ... Think we can say for sure that these personalities more or less believe they are carrying out their 'true will'. Much more so then others. So would that be the case? Can we even imagine a world without these figures? Would that be better, or would we be stuck somewhere in the evolution of mankind? Or perhaps we can at least say they are carrying out some distorted version of their 'true will' Or other things, beings that take advantage of people with a particular type of 'true will'. Edited August 24, 2022 by mcoolio Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helpfuldemon Posted August 24, 2022 5 hours ago, mcoolio said: Or perhaps we can at least say they are carrying out some distorted version of their 'true will' Or other things, beings that take advantage of people with a particular type of 'true will'. Though Nungali doesn't like to admit it, Crowley's system is a modified version of Satanism, which promotes doing one's Will at all costs. Nungali doesn't seem to see that this is a Law that can create demons as easily as angels. In fact, one of Crowley's sayings is "The slaves shall serve". His system is liberty for the strong, and let those that are concerned be slaves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcoolio Posted August 24, 2022 Well... I will put that sentence I quoted above here again The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. Let's assume that Crowley talked about this fravashi component somewhere as well. So do you see demon? God created other laws that pushes the creation as a whole towards that which he intended. But people needn't really be concerned with that. They should be concerned with their 'true will'. Perhaps this is the 'Do what thou willt shall be the only law' (that you need to know) And because you worry so much about why god doesn't intervene, perhaps this sentence can put you at ease a little bit The fravashi can be thought of as the hand of God in all of creation, or perhaps, the means by which God's plan resides in all of creation. Since God's law and plan are in every part and particle of creation from the very beginning, there is no need for God to intervene in the evolution of creation from time to time. No? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 24, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, mcoolio said: Cool! Aside from that experiment this was a line that caught my eye The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. And this makes me think about the 'true will' of people like Trump, Putin, Hitler, ... Think we can say for sure that these personalities more or less believe they are carrying out their 'true will'. Much more so then others. So would that be the case? Can we even imagine a world without these figures? Would that be better, or would we be stuck somewhere in the evolution of mankind? Or perhaps we can at least say they are carrying out some distorted version of their 'true will' Or other things, beings that take advantage of people with a particular type of 'true will'. Okay , if you read that italicised bit , thats in the the post I was referring to - I started looking for it , in this thread , from the beginning .. But ... .... this thread .... Oh well, 'masked' is gone now ... moving along ... In the past during conversations about this subject in our group we came up with the following questions that seemed revelent to us regarding finding one's True Will. First we looked at trends in early childhood - a parent should watch for them and an individual should try to remember them ... significant unusual or 'magical' events that stand out ... especially multiple ones that link together over time . Baby might have a fascination with something , Eg. I used to have a market stall , a couple with a baby in arms, not ye a toddler come up to it , baby looks .... well, like a little Mongolian Buddha ... a lot of babies kinda do but this one had thick very dark hair and complexion and looked very unlike the parents ... he sparked up immediately when seeing the stuff on my stall ; bell, dorjes, tingshaws, etc . started jiggling up and down and giggling . I was talking to the parents ; What a beautiful baby , he seems very aware and in his body, for his age . And they are saying ; Yes, a few people have commented on that , and no he isnt adopted , he doesnt look much like us , and yes, he is very calm , amazing actually , never gives us any trouble . I tinged the tingshaws for him and he LOVED it, stretched his hand out for them, so I gave them to him . The look on that babes face ! The parents even commented " he likes those ! " Then the conversation turned to the babies looks, they laughed ' Oh yes, our friends call him 'The Little Buddha ' . Oh, others have noticed that, it isnt my imagination . I ventured into a converse about reincarnation , they seemed wary and a bit incredulous " What ? You think he might be a reincarnated monk or something ? " I said I thought a LOT of Tibetan Buddhist monks have been killed in the last decade ... a LOT , temples razed to the ground , etc . I would not be surprised if they started showing up in the west , its a bit of a safer environment now . " I guess that was a bit much for them, they decided to leave and take baby away from the strange man and went to take the tingshaw off baby to hand back .... nope . A tug of war ensued , baby was determined , they tried to coax him but he resorted to screaming and a tantrum, he wasnt gonna let go of those tingshaws. parents are freaking out ; " Whats wrong with him, he never behaves like this ?" Me ; " You should buy them for him . " , struggle struggle ... bawl ! ... " or I could just give them to you ." Nope . Parents can be weird sometimes . They fought the bub, prised his little fingers open got the one remaining tigshaw off him and carried him off crying ... away from the strange man and his 'sales ploy ' . yes, a story but , to me, its these type of indications that we should pay attenton to ... and why should not bay have a tingshaw if tats what he wants ? Now some mght say , a little boy that sees a fire engine, falls in love with it, always wants to be a fireman and then becomes one - that is not his True Will, its just psychological programming . Let's leave that for the moment ( but at this point I will sy , there might nit be that much difference between the two , the urge might create the program in the first place . Look for things in the child , or try to remember your own proclivities, attractions, gravitations , what does or did the child like, feel an affinity to, want to be a part of . Where they or you a loner, a group person , easily taking the role of a leader etc . Look at their natural abilities and co ordinations , what they are good at and / or attracted to . Patterns are probably more important than single instances . Then there are external factors such as luck and 'coincidence' ..... maybe little Johhny did want to become a fireman just because he saw a fire engine race by one day and he was impressed by the men and the uniforms they wore and wanted to be like them ... maybe we could discount that ... but if a whole lot of other things happened connected 'randomly' to it ; maybe he wins a prize not knowing what it is and its a fire engine, somehw he gets offered a ride in a fire engine . Some thing catches on fire when he happens to be there and he puts it out with the hose .... 'indicators from the Universe' - something like that . Sometimes its like a jigsaw puzzle , we spend years going from thing to thing, maybe acquiring different skills that seem urelated and in later life we realise they are all needed for a single thing or course of action - the Sufi story ' Fatima the rope maker ' is an excellent example of that . I particulalry like that as it reflects my process . In the ppast I was often 'hurled' into something, some area of study or practice . I had no idea why at the time , then when I switched to something else I thought I had been wasting time . later they all came together ... the fractured kalaidascope resolved into a stuck back together jig saw and then I saw the picture it was depicting .... it was rather an enlightening and insightful process ! Its like a different example : I spent many years studying 'unrelated ' subjects, without knowing why . It wasnt really a choice, I was 'driven' to it, attracted by them. Later I realised they where all the essential subjects of anthropology ... and after I studied that more, I realised it was but a node of the bigger subject . So I would look at things like what we are attracted to and love , and what we love doing ... I mean, on a deep level, something that gives us real satisfaction and joy in doing ... something that makes us feel 'fulfilled' . Try to collate that with the 'magic indicators' ( like the stuff mentioned above ) look for inherent skills , talents and attractions . The 'theory' also states 'every man and every woman is star ' - every person has their own true Will and path, that is, each of us hides or expresses a gem of genius within . There is only one of you, in the whole Universe , your particular gem and what you bring to offer may be entirely unique . The idea of magical training in Thelema is to bring out this genius and realise your full potential . It might be to be a painter, a builder , a mother ... what it is is not important , what is important is finding and doing it . the result, if it all works is ; imagine doing the thing you love most, which gives real satisfaction in life , and particularly , this current life - YOUR life ; this incarnation , its you view, your genius tat is contributing and you are valued for it . Your creativity is being expressed - your spirit and soul has a 'creative and appreciate output' - its the opposite of depression, wondering why you are here , or feeling caught up in a senseless and pointless system . - The thing is many societies worked this way previously , especially indigenous societies ... you dont need a complex society for this to work . Another point is, we should not assume all need to find their True Will ; 1. Some are just 'born into it ' and know about it already ... I have even had a kid become very affronted about it . When I was teaching , I introduced the idea to a year 10 class ( in a Steiner School, so unusual subjects where already on the table ) , some where lost in the concept , some got it and had a burning desire to peruse it but this one kid already knew what t was , what it was going to be when he left school, he had already started setting it up .... he virtually told me off for me assuming he didnt know what it was and should be trying to find it and basically , told me off and 'put me in my place ' ... it was a good experience and demonstration for the class - see ! Some of us already know clearly what it is . Crowley recommended an in depth examination of past lives ; how could one know any trend in 'education' or 'service' (over incarnations ) without realising the previous chapters and overall plot . he has some complex meditations and exercises to that end . Anyway the resultant is hopefully like that passage I already quoted the other day ( here ? ) " ... thus we gather up all the threads of human passion and interest, and weave them into an harmonious tapestry, subtly and diligently with great art, that our Order may seem an ornament even to the Stars that are in the Heavens at Night. In our rainbow-coloured texture we set forth the glory of the whole Universe--See thou to it, brother Magician, that thine own thread be strong, and pure, and of a colour brilliant in itself, yet ready to mingle in all beauty with those of thy brethren! " Some have observed that they like this concept BUT ... 2. ... most people feel they would graduate towards the paths and careers I mentioned above ... who is gonna man the factories , do the drudgeries ... press your clothes and offer you tea ? Well, I might be veering towards a 'libertarian precipice here' and this might open a whole other can of worms for some but ... Not everyone wants to be free - I would urge generally for individual liberation ..... if that is you Will , but apparently it isnt for all. We should not FORCE peoples freedom on them . I have seriously known people to willingly not want to advance , to stay where they are, do something menial and be taken care of . Thats okay, not all of us might be ready yet and need some care and assistance . I think this is what is behind the 'big miss' in Crowley's writing ; " The slaves shall serve ' and the kings shall rule . That doesnt mean some rise up and become kings and make others their slaves against their Will . It should be a call to greater liberation ..... but every 'slave' or 'servant must be given every opportunity and assistance if they choose to work for their own advancement . Marcello Motta had two servants . Being a renown Thelemite, some visitors where shocked to have two full grown men wait on them - what a horrible way to treat a human .... he should 'set them free' . And then what do they do ? This was in south America , would they go back to the poverty of their village or town life and no longer be able to support their family . One visitor even challenged Motta on it and called him a hypocrite - he touted True Will, liberty, freedom , yet here he was sitting in his house getting served drinks by menials " His response was very interesting IMO ; 'They are not menials , we are all equals. I hired two servants and made them both the same offer , one accepted , he could work here, get accommodation and food, some time off, an allowance and his medical taken care of . If he wants to study and expand his career or for a profession he can get extra time off for that and I will pay for the tuition . One of the servants took up the offer and has passed the study for his entry into electrical engineering . The other thanked me but politely refused , he is happy just to be a servant, have roof over his head, not be hungry and fed . If thats what he wants , I should not interfere . ' We should not force or concepts of true Will onto others and also in the area of what OTHERS want we should be flexible with definitions about want , will and True Will . But with ourselves we should be very particular not to confuse our own wants, wills, and True Wills . I'll end there, its a much bigger subject, this was just a few words to answer the original question, and besides, I would be surprised if more than three people have read this far through this post . Edited August 24, 2022 by Nungali 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 24, 2022 11 hours ago, mcoolio said: Cool! Aside from that experiment this was a line that caught my eye The khvarenah is the archetype of the person one can grow to if allowed to grow to the limit of her or his capacity in grace, that is, in keeping with the fravashi and thereby in keeping with Divine purpose. And this makes me think about the 'true will' of people like Trump, Putin, Hitler, ... Think we can say for sure that these personalities more or less believe they are carrying out their 'true will'. Much more so then others. So would that be the case? Can we even imagine a world without these figures? Would that be better, or would we be stuck somewhere in the evolution of mankind? Or perhaps we can at least say they are carrying out some distorted version of their 'true will' Or other things, beings that take advantage of people with a particular type of 'true will'. You hit me with a lot of questions that would be interesting to explore ..... I wanted to get the above out first though to avoid a mish - mash of answers to your many interesting questions , we can look at these later ... after the above has been liked, hated, discussed, abused, twisted, or ignored ... depending on who responds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helpfuldemon Posted August 24, 2022 Thank you for explaining. The phrase "Do What Thou Wilt" is a little misleading. If taken separate from Crowley's system, the Book of the Law reads another way completely. Given that he claimed to have received it, one might speculate that he interpreted it wrong. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 24, 2022 6 hours ago, helpfuldemon said: Though Nungali doesn't like to admit it, Crowley's system is a modified version of Satanism, which promotes doing one's Will at all costs. Nungali doesn't seem to see that this is a Law that can create demons as easily as angels. In fact, one of Crowley's sayings is "The slaves shall serve". His system is liberty for the strong, and let those that are concerned be slaves. Oh ... my ears started tingling It does not " promotes doing one's Will at all costs " .... you dont understand the system that is in place to help with all of this ... you are trying to sail that stormy sea with no charts, compass or knowledge of the stars, waves and wind . Just one example - 5o is a 'Rosicrucian degree' and in that one may choose to stay and not advance in rder to serve and assist others up to that level ... sort of like a Bodhisattva 'trip' ... in this situation one puts it 'on hold' to assist others ... i all sorts of ways . But you could be right, as this might be an essential stage .... I know that after my 10 years working in the hospital , nursing the sick, helping the infirm and elderly , washing their old bodies , changing their soiled beds , bringing a little joy in their lives .... things really took off for me after that .... and my 'dreams ' really started to manifest . I had no idea at the time why I was doing it though . Now I have come to the realisation that there is a greater reflection in all of this ... much of our life experience is probably geared towards 'training' for 'which is yet to come ' ... beyond this life . As fas as ' slaves serving ' ..... nothing wrong with that , as long as they are treated well and liberated if they want to be ( not even if the Will to be ... one has to be flexible with others 'wants and wills' ... otherwise its oppression and oppression is the exact opposite of the 'Law of Thelema' . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 24, 2022 14 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said: Thank you for explaining. The phrase "Do What Thou Wilt" is a little misleading. If taken separate from Crowley's system, the Book of the Law reads another way completely. Given that he claimed to have received it, one might speculate that he interpreted it wrong. Reading the Book of the Law 'by itself ' and attempting to interpret it , WITHOUT the authors further explanations is BOUND TO led to 'difficulties' - Crowley warns about this continually . Still , at times, he admits he DID interpret it wrong .... he didnt even credit it at first with any significance , it wasnt until later, that subsequent events seemed to indicate to him it had some validity . I dont recommend studying it alone ... and he even forbid discussion on it ! I think we know why now .... look at the trouble and confusion its caused here ! IMO it a blend of some prophetic vision , some insight about the times to come , a lot of his own 'psychological surrealism', some valid hermetic symbolism and a bit of bitchiness . Just like most 'scripture'. But you might have showed him a thing or two HD ! here you where railing against it .... and now, after much perseverance you have started to see , perhaps, some value in the concept ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 24, 2022 ... and I might add You have jumped miles ahead of our 'Old Bob' here . - Isn't 'Old Bob' another name for the devil ? * ( Crowley ain't the only one that throws in some bitchiness sometimes ) * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_the_Devil Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helpfuldemon Posted August 24, 2022 49 minutes ago, Nungali said: Still , at times, he admits he DID interpret it wrong .... he didnt even credit it at first with any significance , it wasnt until later, that subsequent events seemed to indicate to him it had some validity . I've often wondered if he didn't just conjure up a muse and say it was channeled. If he didn't think it had any significance, the likelihood that it was directly given to him is low. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 25, 2022 48 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said: I've often wondered if he didn't just conjure up a muse and say it was channeled. Well, we could go down that avenue . Aiwass or a version of that can be a first name in Egypt . Crowely says the 'voice' that dictated to him' seemed t come from an area of the room (in Cairo ) near the curtains . That voice also called itself 'The Waiter' Was the hotel waiter called 'Aiwah' hiding behind the curtains playing with Crowley while he was clearly out of it . ? others see in the diary at the time that it was actually Rose's voice . Ww have to remember NONE of this was crowley;s idea ,it was insisted at by his wife Rose , he claimed it was all rubbish, the messages she was getting in Egypt ... she was carried away by it al and started getting messages in museums from statures and thngs . otlining a ritual he should do he said it was all imaginatuve women;s rubbish with no deep hermetic understanding of the principles but he would do it anyway to prove to her nothing would come of it . he toght nothing would, tolde her 'See ! " and tossed the ntebook i with his other books and forgot abut it . Perhaps Rose should be the 'Prophet of Thelema' ? Here is another of her with her 'Supremus Magistimus' husband 48 minutes ago, helpfuldemon said: If he didn't think it had any significance, the likelihood that it was directly given to him is low. You think so ? I am always giving insignificance to what is given to me from 'on high' . Sometimes it takes me years to accept, process and realise . I am often cursing myself for being such an idiot ! Like a goanna , you toss em food, they know its about, they can smell it about and searching, sometimes going right past it ! then eventually : " There it is! Right under my nose all the time ! " I am glad they' are SOOOO patient with me/us ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
helpfuldemon Posted August 25, 2022 A book, a way of being, directions for a new age... this wasn't just some small thing. First of all, God doesn't speak to just anyone, much less recite a whole text! I'd like to think if a spirit gave a person a whole work with guidance for mankind, that they would take it seriously! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcoolio Posted August 25, 2022 11 hours ago, Nungali said: ... I'll end there, its a much bigger subject, this was just a few words to answer the original question, and besides, I would be surprised if more than three people have read this far through this post . Interesting! Lot's of stuff to think about. For sure, many people will read this! Gonna ask my mother some questions ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcoolio Posted August 25, 2022 Talked to my mom. Most significant thing as a youngster: As early as 2 years old, lots of interest in things with flying: kites, planes, paper airplanes, ... Can say I am still particularly fond of kites, though don't really do it anymore, perhaps because I don't live in a good region. Starting from my teenage years, got a strong tendency towards the concept of gongfu, or better said, being obsessed in acquiring skill and/or knowledge in something: - taekwondo - gran turismo, a racing videogame - skateboarding - counterstrike - soccer - computer science/programming - mathematics - physics - bodyweight training - handstand - buddhism, kungfu - spirituality (all of it) Didn't really 'play' these things. Trained and acquired books and other knowledge to train, study better. Didn't get far for in any of these. Got obsessed and started training, started feeling blocked, frustrated for various reasons, excuses, gave up, played video games for a few months , and moved on to the next thing. Naturally gravitated towards spirituality and now obsessed with that. It's a little bit different from the other obsessions though. Held out much much longer than the other stuff. Seems like I'm not giving this up any time soon. Can even say there is happiness in doing this. But still feels like an incomplete puzzle. So now what? Any next steps to go further in finding the true will? Or any sources I can consult for more information? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted August 25, 2022 15 hours ago, helpfuldemon said: A book, a way of being, directions for a new age... this wasn't just some small thing. First of all, God doesn't speak to just anyone, much less recite a whole text! I'd like to think if a spirit gave a person a whole work with guidance for mankind, that they would take it seriously! But what if they didnt think it was from 'God' . Also Corley never claimed it was from 'God' . There is a whole section in his autobiography where he writes about it in detail, how it came about and what happened on the day . Without knowing about that, yo are running mosty on gossip and a little more accurate details , taken from about 10% of the info Crowley offers on it . You should realise that any , even low degree, magician would never take such things at face value ! During and after any such converse tests should be made to ensure no 'identity theft' has occurred . In short ... why believe any spirit is who they say they are ? Why believe any spirit is who you want / think/ hope/ fear it might be ? Okay HD ! Up against the wall - POLICE ! Will you do that for me ? or will you want to see some proof of my claimed authority ? Why should spirits be any different ? This is basic magick school 101 and to neglect it is a sure recipe for (as Crowley said ) confusions and madness . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
