Where can I find more information about the "Four Greats"?

[knowledgeseeker]

I've been interesting in studying Daoism (and eastern esoteric practices in general), and in the daoist system we have five elements.  I am coming from a western/hermetic/Tibetan perspective where there are four elements (fire, air, water, earth) plus a fifth, akasha.  Now I've already studied enough to realize that the "five elements" in daoism aren't really equivalent to the four elements of hermetics, as the five are a representation of phases/transitions, whereas the four are more like a subtle astral "material" from which the material universe is generated.  But what I'm interested in, is learning more about whether daoism DOES have an actual equivalent to what hermetics calls the four elements.  The only thing that I could find, was a comment made on this forum in 2013, where user ChiDragon explains that daoists DO in fact have them, and they are known as the Four Greats as opposed to the Five Categories (wuxing elements) that they also have.

 

This is the post I am referring to:

 

So my question is: where can I find more information about the Four Greats?  I have not been able to find anything online about this.  Are there any books, texts, lectures, or any sources at all where I can learn more about the Four Greats in the daoist context?  I don't speak any dialect of Chinese, so I don't know if searching via the Chinese characters in ChiDragon's post would have yielded obvious results in my search on this topic.

[thelerner]

I consider element theory to be Chinese rather then Taoist.  Not that Taoist don't have a rich repertoire of use ie connecting elements to organs/gods and charting how they interact.  A great introduction is The Web that Has no Weaver https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RB7Z4RE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1, which talks about how the 5 elements are used in traditional arts. 

 

When I have problems I try to break things down elementally and see what strategies present themselves by aligning or opposing the forces involved. 

 

Another practice is Ron Clark's Archaeous series, which is Bardon inspired hermetic which stacks the elements onto the body, getting into astral and mental realms.   Great practice because its experiential rather then reading theory. 

[Taomeow]

17 hours ago, knowledgeseeker said:

I've been interesting in studying Daoism (and eastern esoteric practices in general), and in the daoist system we have five elements.  I am coming from a western/hermetic/Tibetan perspective where there are four elements (fire, air, water, earth) plus a fifth, akasha.  Now I've already studied enough to realize that the "five elements" in daoism aren't really equivalent to the four elements of hermetics, as the five are a representation of phases/transitions, whereas the four are more like a subtle astral "material" from which the material universe is generated.  But what I'm interested in, is learning more about whether daoism DOES have an actual equivalent to what hermetics calls the four elements.  The only thing that I could find, was a comment made on this forum in 2013, where user ChiDragon explains that daoists DO in fact have them, and they are known as the Four Greats as opposed to the Five Categories (wuxing elements) that they also have.

 

This is the post I am referring to:

 

So my question is: where can I find more information about the Four Greats?  I have not been able to find anything online about this.  Are there any books, texts, lectures, or any sources at all where I can learn more about the Four Greats in the daoist context?  I don't speak any dialect of Chinese, so I don't know if searching via the Chinese characters in ChiDragon's post would have yielded obvious results in my search on this topic.

 

The Four are the four main compass directions of the eight trigrams (the bagua) -- north, south, east, west.  The bagua is formed by eight patterns of qi -- north, south, east, west, northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest.  This is a huge area of study in its own right.  The 13 together -- 5 of the wuxing (phases, aka "elements) patterns of qi interlock with the 8 of the bagua (eight trigrams) to account for a lot of dynamics that are explored and worked with in all taoist arts.  

 

17 hours ago, thelerner said:

I consider element theory to be Chinese rather then Taoist. 

 

Actually you can't separate the two, because taoism was originally an extension and development of proprietary shamanic traditions of the area that later became China.  Proto-taoism precedes both taoism and China, and wuxing comes thence.  It was the prevalent thought of the Shang dynasty period and the underlying method for, e.g., oracle bone divinations of the time, all relying on the number five and the associated properties, permutations and metamorphoses of the "elements."  These were already associated with much of what later was further organized into a taoist-proper philosophy and cosmology of the five phases (wuxing jia -- "family" or "school").  All taoist fundamentals, of which this is one, were developed from shamanic proto-taoist practices and ideas and, moreover, by shamans and shaman-kings in communication with mysteries and mysterious beings.  Not all things Chinese are taoist, and not all things taoist are Chinese, but taoist fundamentals are inseparably Chinese.          

[vonkrankenhaus]

5 phases or Wu Xing is not actually about physical elements.

 

It is not a system of "5 elements".

 

Phases in Wu Xing are Time Periods, and not things at all.

 

They are the order of the appearances of the 5 major visible planets on the horizon.

 

Lists of phenomena correspondences to these time periods were produced and used in cultivation, philosophy, and medicine, etc.

 

The YinYang of these is the basis of the 10 day Chinese week - the 10 Stems.

 

Western systems use the 5 planets plus the "luminaries" - Sun & Moon, and this is the "7 Days of the Week".

 

"4 Greats" - this usually refer to the 4 major Chinese philosophy: Confucianism, Daoism, Mohism and Legalism.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

[knowledgeseeker]

On 11/11/2019 at 4:38 PM, thelerner said:

I consider element theory to be Chinese rather then Taoist.  Not that Taoist don't have a rich repertoire of use ie connecting elements to organs/gods and charting how they interact.  A great introduction is The Web that Has no Weaver https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RB7Z4RE/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1, which talks about how the 5 elements are used in traditional arts. 

 

When I have problems I try to break things down elementally and see what strategies present themselves by aligning or opposing the forces involved. 

 

Another practice is Ron Clark's Archaeous series, which is Bardon inspired hermetic which stacks the elements onto the body, getting into astral and mental realms.   Great practice because its experiential rather then reading theory. 

 

Thanks, I'll check that book out.

 

 

11 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

The Four are the four main compass directions of the eight trigrams (the bagua) -- north, south, east, west.  The bagua is formed by eight patterns of qi -- north, south, east, west, northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest.  This is a huge area of study in its own right.  The 13 together -- 5 of the wuxing (phases, aka "elements) patterns of qi interlock with the 8 of the bagua (eight trigrams) to account for a lot of dynamics that are explored and worked with in all taoist arts.  

 

 

Actually you can't separate the two, because taoism was originally an extension and development of proprietary shamanic traditions of the area that later became China.  Proto-taoism precedes both taoism and China, and wuxing comes thence.  It was the prevalent thought of the Shang dynasty period and the underlying method for, e.g., oracle bone divinations of the time, all relying on the number five and the associated properties, permutations and metamorphoses of the "elements."  These were already associated with much of what later was further organized into a taoist-proper philosophy and cosmology of the five phases (wuxing jia -- "family" or "school").  All taoist fundamentals, of which this is one, were developed from shamanic proto-taoist practices and ideas and, moreover, by shamans and shaman-kings in communication with mysteries and mysterious beings.  Not all things Chinese are taoist, and not all things taoist are Chinese, but taoist fundamentals are inseparably Chinese.          

 

I'm just starting to dive into taoism but could the "compass directions" or "patterns of qi" be thought of as different types of "material" energy in the same sense that the hermetic elements are?  I guess my question SHOULD be: since the 5 Chinese/taoist elements aren't equivalent to the 4/5 hermetic elements, does any branch of any taoist system have something that IS equivalent?  As in, something that represents those 4 "precursor of matter" energies/elements?

 

 

9 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

5 phases or Wu Xing is not actually about physical elements.

 

It is not a system of "5 elements".

 

Phases in Wu Xing are Time Periods, and not things at all.

 

They are the order of the appearances of the 5 major visible planets on the horizon.

 

Lists of phenomena correspondences to these time periods were produced and used in cultivation, philosophy, and medicine, etc.

 

The YinYang of these is the basis of the 10 day Chinese week - the 10 Stems.

 

Western systems use the 5 planets plus the "luminaries" - Sun & Moon, and this is the "7 Days of the Week".

 

"4 Greats" - this usually refer to the 4 major Chinese philosophy: Confucianism, Daoism, Mohism and Legalism.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

Does this mean that the 5 Wu Xing could actually be thought of as somewhat related to the planetary energies/forces of those 5 plants in western occult/hermetic systems?  In other words, since the hermetic systems typically have the 4 elements (plus akasha), 12 zodiacs, and 7 classical planets, all of which are thought of as energies/forces, are taoists essentially using 5 of the planetary energies under the analogy of their 5 elements?  Or am I reaching here with this comparison?

 

Also, those "4 Greats" are actually the only 4 Greats I found when searching for it, but they didn't seem to make much sense in the context of ChiDragon's post that mentioned the term, so I was thinking there was maybe a different 4 Greats that have something to do with similarities with western elements.

[Walker]

Everybody who's answered you so far has given correct answers, but perhaps not ones that are complete in a way that will answer your question.

 

The term "four greats" aka 四大 is used in many Daoist writings to refer to the four mahābhūta, an idea that was imported from India a long, long time ago. In Chinese Buddhist writings these are also referred to as the "four seeds" (四種), "four realms" (四界), and in some contexts the "four poisons" (四毒); I wouldn't be surprised if there were other synonyms in use, too.

 

There are other terms in Daoism (including one from the Daodejing) that are also called "四大," as well as other Chinese concepts with the same name or with "四大" as part of their name. 

 

I have never seen a Daoist text that goes into much detail on this concept, but then again I've never looked. A digital search of the Daoist Canon for 四大 on Kanripo turns up 1,635 results, but it is certain that only a portion of these results pertain to the four mahābhūta.

 

It is true that many of the important lessons that can be gleaned from learning about the five phases refer more to periods of time (or states of objects and phenomena in flux), much as vonkrankenhaus said. But sometimes they do refer to corresponding physical objects, as when the "五材” are written of. Such references are not limited to Daoism, as Taomeow pointed out, and they can be pretty ancient--thus, usually, extremely brief, terse, and obscure. Much ink has been spilled on these topics by modern writers and I've stained my fingers with a bit of it, but I don't know where you could find detailed English translations, especially those which might satisfy your interest in comparing these concepts with hermetic terminology.

[vonkrankenhaus]

4 hours ago, knowledgeseeker said:

Does this mean that the 5 Wu Xing could actually be thought of as somewhat related to the planetary energies/forces of those 5 plants in western occult/hermetic systems? 

 

They are the same planets. Same times rising at the horizon, etc.

 

Western systems use these 5 visible planets, plus Sun & Moon.

 

Otherwise, their calendars are different.

 

Chinese calendars use 10 Stems (YinYang of Wu Xing) for a week, and orbit of Saturn (Kronos) timing the 48 Lunar Mansions and also orbit of Jupiter (Zeus) for the solar year. Western used to be lunar (sea & coast people - tides) and became solar.

 

Modern playing card deck shows the Western calendar.

 

Correspondences to these sky events, like in West, are variable in Chinese history, but also mostly consistent.

 

These are used in many fields of study.

 

4 hours ago, knowledgeseeker said:

actually the only 4 Greats I found when searching for it, but they didn't seem to make much sense in the context of ChiDragon's post that mentioned the term,

 

Maybe was meaning the "4 Emblems"?

 

These are the divisions of the TaiJi, the polarity of polarity.

 

I think this would make more sense for someone to mention in a discussion with Wu Xing than "4 Greats".

 

There is also LaoTzu quote, but this doesn't fit well either:

"In the world there are four greats,
And the king is one of them.
Man is ruled by Earth.
Earth is ruled by Heaven.
Heaven is ruled by the Way.
The Way is ruled by itself."

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Edited November 13, 2019 by vonkrankenhaus

[Taomeow]

9 hours ago, knowledgeseeker said:

I'm just starting to dive into taoism but could the "compass directions" or "patterns of qi" be thought of as different types of "material" energy in the same sense that the hermetic elements are?  I guess my question SHOULD be: since the 5 Chinese/taoist elements aren't equivalent to the 4/5 hermetic elements, does any branch of any taoist system have something that IS equivalent?  As in, something that represents those 4 "precursor of matter" energies/elements?

 

To the first part of your question: yes, absolutely, the classical feng shui (not the pop version most Westerners have heard of and read silly books about) does not exclude the actual material energy -- or the material itself -- from the greater picture of a particular "elemental" pattern of qi transformations.  These transformations manifest in a myriad ways, and discerning which is which can be as simple as noticing that "something" flowing from your tap, in the river, or in the ocean is actually water, part of the Water phase.  The phase is not limited to the "element" by any stretch of imagination, but the element itself is included, it's part of the phase. 

 

It gets far more intriguing though when the actual "element" is not possible to discern yet the behavior of a certain "energy stream" or "pattern of change" resembles that of a particular phase of qi.  E.g. the flow of money can behave as Water phase -- nourish or rot, flow or stagnate, accumulate and break through obstacles, overcome hard power with soft power, and so on.  Trickle down if we're lucky.   But it gets even more intriguing because taoist sciences also look at the dynamics of those "elements" on the level of the individual, and reveal that one's personal "money phase" may be something entirely else, something that behaves in a manner influenced by every other phase it interacts with in a way that would cause a "cash flow" or "going broke."  But it gets more intriguing because "cash flow" can be just one aspect of an individual's overall stream of "good luck" -- something seemingly very intangible yet a bona fide probabilistic science to a wuxing student.  You can quantify good fortune and misfortune in taoist sciences based on those "elements."  I'm not sure it's part of hermetic sciences.   

 

To your second question -- yes, there's taoist schools and authors who have been influenced by the (chiefly) Buddhist systems and they might organize the taoist Five to resemble the Indo-European Four.  E.g. by placing Earth in the Center and sort of taking it out of the five-phase circulation and mutual transformation pattern that is the main feature of the taoist five qi phases dynamics, make it sit there representing something immutable and static, "self" or "original self" or what have you, without participating in the transformations.  They will arrange everything else around it and essentially proceed to work with just four...  often practically reducing to just two -- e.g. kan and li, or  "true yang and false yang," or some such.  Personally I avoid those systems based on my own training and understanding, but you will hear much derived thence on this forum and elsewhere.    

 

The reason you can't place something in the Center and revolve the whole hoopla around it is that the Center itself is as movable as everything else, it never stays put.  So another "great" taoist system needs to be taken into account to get closer still to the whole dynamics -- the great Nine.    But that's not the time nor the place to get into all that.     

[knowledgeseeker]

22 hours ago, Walker said:

Everybody who's answered you so far has given correct answers, but perhaps not ones that are complete in a way that will answer your question.

 

The term "four greats" aka 四大 is used in many Daoist writings to refer to the four mahābhūta, an idea that was imported from India a long, long time ago. In Chinese Buddhist writings these are also referred to as the "four seeds" (四種), "four realms" (四界), and in some contexts the "four poisons" (四毒); I wouldn't be surprised if there were other synonyms in use, too.

 

There are other terms in Daoism (including one from the Daodejing) that are also called "四大," as well as other Chinese concepts with the same name or with "四大" as part of their name. 

 

I have never seen a Daoist text that goes into much detail on this concept, but then again I've never looked. A digital search of the Daoist Canon for 四大 on Kanripo turns up 1,635 results, but it is certain that only a portion of these results pertain to the four mahābhūta.

 

It is true that many of the important lessons that can be gleaned from learning about the five phases refer more to periods of time (or states of objects and phenomena in flux), much as vonkrankenhaus said. But sometimes they do refer to corresponding physical objects, as when the "五材” are written of. Such references are not limited to Daoism, as Taomeow pointed out, and they can be pretty ancient--thus, usually, extremely brief, terse, and obscure. Much ink has been spilled on these topics by modern writers and I've stained my fingers with a bit of it, but I don't know where you could find detailed English translations, especially those which might satisfy your interest in comparing these concepts with hermetic terminology.

 

This seems to be exactly what I was looking for.  It also makes sense that some writings would refer to them as "four realms" since they are kind of "realms" in the western system as well from the perspective of having out of body experiences within the elements themselves.  You mentioned that many Daoist writings use the term "four great" to refer to the four mahabhuta.  Do you happen to know which writings/sources that might be (or some of them)?  I know there may not a be an English translation for some of these but I'm still interested in knowing of them.

 

 

21 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

They are the same planets. Same times rising at the horizon, etc.

 

Western systems use these 5 visible planets, plus Sun & Moon.

 

Otherwise, their calendars are different.

 

Chinese calendars use 10 Stems (YinYang of Wu Xing) for a week, and orbit of Saturn (Kronos) timing the 48 Lunar Mansions and also orbit of Jupiter (Zeus) for the solar year. Western used to be lunar (sea & coast people - tides) and became solar.

 

Modern playing card deck shows the Western calendar.

 

Correspondences to these sky events, like in West, are variable in Chinese history, but also mostly consistent.

 

These are used in many fields of study.

 

 

Maybe was meaning the "4 Emblems"?

 

These are the divisions of the TaiJi, the polarity of polarity.

 

I think this would make more sense for someone to mention in a discussion with Wu Xing than "4 Greats".

 

There is also LaoTzu quote, but this doesn't fit well either:

"In the world there are four greats,
And the king is one of them.
Man is ruled by Earth.
Earth is ruled by Heaven.
Heaven is ruled by the Way.
The Way is ruled by itself."

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

Interesting, then it definitely seems like the 5 wu xing themselves are more comparable to how the western system describes the "forces" which those 5 physical planets represent in astrology.  Also, you may be on to something with the Taiji and the four emblems (is that the same thing as the "four symbols"?  I could find anything related to the Taiji specifically worded as "four emblems" when I searched for it).  But that could certainly fit the description of something analogous to the 4 western elements, especially because in many occult texts the 4 elements are represented by four beings/spirits and four directions.

 

 

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

To the first part of your question: yes, absolutely, the classical feng shui (not the pop version most Westerners have heard of and read silly books about) does not exclude the actual material energy -- or the material itself -- from the greater picture of a particular "elemental" pattern of qi transformations.  These transformations manifest in a myriad ways, and discerning which is which can be as simple as noticing that "something" flowing from your tap, in the river, or in the ocean is actually water, part of the Water phase.  The phase is not limited to the "element" by any stretch of imagination, but the element itself is included, it's part of the phase. 

 

It gets far more intriguing though when the actual "element" is not possible to discern yet the behavior of a certain "energy stream" or "pattern of change" resembles that of a particular phase of qi.  E.g. the flow of money can behave as Water phase -- nourish or rot, flow or stagnate, accumulate and break through obstacles, overcome hard power with soft power, and so on.  Trickle down if we're lucky.   But it gets even more intriguing because taoist sciences also look at the dynamics of those "elements" on the level of the individual, and reveal that one's personal "money phase" may be something entirely else, something that behaves in a manner influenced by every other phase it interacts with in a way that would cause a "cash flow" or "going broke."  But it gets more intriguing because "cash flow" can be just one aspect of an individual's overall stream of "good luck" -- something seemingly very intangible yet a bona fide probabilistic science to a wuxing student.  You can quantify good fortune and misfortune in taoist sciences based on those "elements."  I'm not sure it's part of hermetic sciences.   

 

To your second question -- yes, there's taoist schools and authors who have been influenced by the (chiefly) Buddhist systems and they might organize the taoist Five to resemble the Indo-European Four.  E.g. by placing Earth in the Center and sort of taking it out of the five-phase circulation and mutual transformation pattern that is the main feature of the taoist five qi phases dynamics, make it sit there representing something immutable and static, "self" or "original self" or what have you, without participating in the transformations.  They will arrange everything else around it and essentially proceed to work with just four...  often practically reducing to just two -- e.g. kan and li, or  "true yang and false yang," or some such.  Personally I avoid those systems based on my own training and understanding, but you will hear much derived thence on this forum and elsewhere.    

 

The reason you can't place something in the Center and revolve the whole hoopla around it is that the Center itself is as movable as everything else, it never stays put.  So another "great" taoist system needs to be taken into account to get closer still to the whole dynamics -- the great Nine.    But that's not the time nor the place to get into all that.     

 

There is a lot I will need to learn more about, thanks for that info!  Also it's interesting that you mention some systems reducing them down to just two, because in some hermetic systems the four elements can also be reduced down to two real forces, the "electric fluid" and "magnetic fluid" (the names being metaphorical of course), which are the precursors to fire and water respectively, the only two "true" elements (air being simply the balance/polarity between fire and water, and earth being result of the interaction between fire, water and air.  So it seems there is a lot of correlation after all.

Edited November 14, 2019 by knowledgeseeker

[Taomeow]

3 minutes ago, knowledgeseeker said:

 

Interesting, thanks for that info!  Also it's interesting that you mention some systems reducing them down to just two, because in some hermetic systems the four elements can also be reduced down to two real forces, the "electric fluid" and "magnetic fluid" (the names being metaphorical of course), which are the precursors to fire and water respectively, the only two "true" elements (air being simply the balance/polarity between fire and water, and earth being result of the interaction between fire, water and air.  So it seems there is a lot of correlation after all.

 

Please note though that it's a correlation of the hermetic sciences with other Indo-European sciences in this case -- the ones that made their way into taoism.  So I'd say it's more of an influence, a borrowing (and an afterthought at that) than correlation. 

 

The taoist fifth "element" (phase of qi) missing from Indo-European sciences is Wood.  Which in wuxing sciences corresponds to biological life -- plants, animals, humans -- and any other biological life anywhere in the universe.  I've always found it very noteworthy that this very distinct phase of existence is absent from Indo-European traditions, and very disturbing.  The idiosyncratic behavior of Wood, of biological life as a phenomenon in existence, is not really reducible to that of any other phase.  And since taoist sciences are mostly concerned with processes, it's the behavior of a particular phase that determines "what it is."  It is "what it does" and "how it does it" and "under what circumstances does it behave the way it does."  The process of biological aliveness is a distinct phase of qi which can only be thrown out of the picture for reasons I almost dare not contemplate...  

[vonkrankenhaus]

1 hour ago, knowledgeseeker said:

you may be on to something with the Taiji and the four emblems (is that the same thing as the "four symbols"?  I could find anything related to the Taiji specifically worded as "four emblems" when I searched for it)

 

This is the Szu-Hsiang -  T'ai Yang (Greater Yang), Shao Yin (Lesser Yin), Shao Yang (Lesser Yang), and T'ai Yin (Greater Yin). From the Szu-Hsiang the Bagua (Eight Trigrams) are derived:

In I Ching you can read in appendix: ""In the Changes there is the Supreme Ultimate (T'ai Chi), which produced the Two Forms (yin and yang). These Two Forms produced the four emblems (Szu-Hsiang), and these four emblems produced the eight trigrams":

 

 

For "Four Symbols" this can introduce:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Symbols

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

Edited November 14, 2019 by vonkrankenhaus

[Taomeow]

Taoists are fond of numbering everything.  One Principle, Two Qi, Three Powers, Four Forms, Five Elements, Six Harmonies, Seven Stars, Eight Trigrams, and Nine Palaces.  All of them are used in all serious taoist sciences and practices.  For taijiquan, e.g., the Classics talk of "Thirteen Songs," or techniques, which are comprised of the Five Elements (let's use this metaphorical word for simplicity) and Eight Trigrams.  Each corresponding to a particular way to use the body.  These Thirteen rely on One Principle (wuji-taiji) and Two Qi (yin-yang), use Three Powers (head, hands, feet), Four Forms (cardinal directions), Six Harmonies (jing with shen, shen with qi, qi with jing), Seven Stars (head, hands, shoulders, elbows, hips, knees, feet), Nine Palaces (the way to establish and maintain the stable center throughout the changes of the Eight Directions).  

 

So you are basically dealing with 5+8 ways to use your body-mind-spirit while the body-mind-spirit itself is asked to be in a 1+2+3+4+6 state.   To a total of 45 Great Processes.  45(states) --13(uses) = 32.  "Heaven above, 32.  Earth below, 32."  32 yin and 32 yang trigarms of the I Ching to a total of 64.  And so on.

 

Still, the OP is about the five "elements" corresponding or not, or partially, to those of hermeticism.  The answer ought to phase in the question methinks.  The short answer is, not really, despite surface similarities.  

[knowledgeseeker]

23 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

Please note though that it's a correlation of the hermetic sciences with other Indo-European sciences in this case -- the ones that made their way into taoism.  So I'd say it's more of an influence, a borrowing (and an afterthought at that) than correlation. 

 

The taoist fifth "element" (phase of qi) missing from Indo-European sciences is Wood.  Which in wuxing sciences corresponds to biological life -- plants, animals, humans -- and any other biological life anywhere in the universe.  I've always found it very noteworthy that this very distinct phase of existence is absent from Indo-European traditions, and very disturbing.  The idiosyncratic behavior of Wood, of biological life as a phenomenon in existence, is not really reducible to that of any other phase.  And since taoist sciences are mostly concerned with processes, it's the behavior of a particular phase that determines "what it is."  It is "what it does" and "how it does it" and "under what circumstances does it behave the way it does."  The process of biological aliveness is a distinct phase of qi which can only be thrown out of the picture for reasons I almost dare not contemplate...  

 

Good point, although in western systems the "biological life" element/phase/force is usually considered the ether/etheric/vital force, which in those western systems lies somewhere in between the physical plane and the elementals.  So it's not really missing (at least in some traditions), it just isn't considered one of those four primary elements (or 5 if you cound akasha/void).

 

But after doing some more reading on the subject, I actually think it's the Taiji and the greater/lesser yang and greater/lesser yin that fulfill the same role in the daoist cosmology as the 4/5 western elements do in the western/Indo-European systems.  It just seems like the taoists went into more fine detail with categorizing more specific combinations and sub-types of these 4 forces, hence the 8 of the Bagua, and ending up in 64.  Whereas the western systems seem to be content working with the "more broad and less specific" 4.

 

 

22 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

This is the Szu-Hsiang -  T'ai Yang (Greater Yang), Shao Yin (Lesser Yin), Shao Yang (Lesser Yang), and T'ai Yin (Greater Yin). From the Szu-Hsiang the Bagua (Eight Trigrams) are derived:

In I Ching you can read in appendix: ""In the Changes there is the Supreme Ultimate (T'ai Chi), which produced the Two Forms (yin and yang). These Two Forms produced the four emblems (Szu-Hsiang), and these four emblems produced the eight trigrams":

 

 

For "Four Symbols" this can introduce:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Symbols

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

As I mentioned in response to Taomeow, I think this is essentially the correct answer.  And your post makes quite clear the similarities between this and hermetics (especially Bardon's system).  With the Akasha being the T'ai Chi, yin and yang being the "electric" and "magnetic" fluid (precursor to fire and water), and air and earth coming forth from the interaction of fire and water, the two "true" elements.

 

 

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

Taoists are fond of numbering everything.  One Principle, Two Qi, Three Powers, Four Forms, Five Elements, Six Harmonies, Seven Stars, Eight Trigrams, and Nine Palaces.  All of them are used in all serious taoist sciences and practices.  For taijiquan, e.g., the Classics talk of "Thirteen Songs," or techniques, which are comprised of the Five Elements (let's use this metaphorical word for simplicity) and Eight Trigrams.  Each corresponding to a particular way to use the body.  These Thirteen rely on One Principle (wuji-taiji) and Two Qi (yin-yang), use Three Powers (head, hands, feet), Four Forms (cardinal directions), Six Harmonies (jing with shen, shen with qi, qi with jing), Seven Stars (head, hands, shoulders, elbows, hips, knees, feet), Nine Palaces (the way to establish and maintain the stable center throughout the changes of the Eight Directions).  

 

So you are basically dealing with 5+8 ways to use your body-mind-spirit while the body-mind-spirit itself is asked to be in a 1+2+3+4+6 state.   To a total of 45 Great Processes.  45(states) --13(uses) = 32.  "Heaven above, 32.  Earth below, 32."  32 yin and 32 yang trigarms of the I Ching to a total of 64.  And so on.

 

Still, the OP is about the five "elements" corresponding or not, or partially, to those of hermeticism.  The answer ought to phase in the question methinks.  The short answer is, not really, despite surface similarities.  

 

I agree, as a result of what I've learned about the Taiji, I now realize the five wu xing are not what corresponds to the 4 western elements, despite the naming convention (although I also now realize the word "elements" isn't even really a good translation of wu xing in the first place).