Knowledge is very simple

[Mskied]

I guess it depends upon what you consider to be the factors in destiny.  A person with blindness might be fated to be blind, but is it his destiny to be treated poorly because of it?  

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, Mskied said:

I guess it depends upon what you consider to be the factors in destiny.  A person with blindness might be fated to be blind, but is it his destiny to be treated poorly because of it?  

How he is treated by others is not his destiny, how he reacts to it IF it happens is another story, and neither are destiny!

 

I take it you don’t know many blind people? 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Mskied]

What he experiences IS his destiny.  Something we can take into our own hands.

[Earl Grey]

9 minutes ago, Mskied said:

What he experiences IS his destiny.  Something we can take into our own hands.

 

Ah, just like it appears that your destiny is to be blind to the holes in your reasoning!

[Mskied]

destiny

[ˈdestinē]

NOUN

1. the events that will necessarily happen to a particular person or thing in the future.

   "she was unable to control her own destiny"

   • the hidden power believed to control what will happen in the future; fate.

    

   Im not certain either one of us are absolutely correct on this subject.  The events that will necessarily happen- if a man is blind, he will necessarily experience some reaction or result of being blind based on how he acts in accordance to his blindness, and how other people respond to it.  Is it his destiny to be blind?  yes.  Is it his destiny to hate life?  No.  Necessarily, he will encounter obstacles to life based on blindness.  Now imagine if he was not blind, he would still be destined to live and react according to whatever set of circumstances he encounters.  Do these factors mean that our destiny is different dependent upon things like blindness?  Perhaps all people have the same destiny- to live and to die.  What is the hidden power to control what will happen in the future?  Perhaps it is some unseen thing that cannot be avoided by either blindness or personal Will.  If that is the case, then the idea here is that all people have the same destiny- to live and to die, but that the actual experiences of life are based upon the set of circumstances that we are born into and with.  Is that destiny, or is it fate?  Can we avert this by taking control of what goes on with these factors?  I think we can.  

[Zork]

23 minutes ago, Mskied said:

I guess it depends upon what you consider to be the factors in destiny.  A person with blindness might be fated to be blind, but is it his destiny to be treated poorly because of it?  

How he reacts is part of purpose. People either take over or accept. I was very specific when i said he might turn a scammer. He might play victim or try to actively participate despite handicaps. Blind men/women are just examples of someone who was born with a handicap due to race, colour, nationality or religion. Even within the same country, would you ever expect a black president in the 1940s? Don't be an idiot and tell me that people didn't try to gain equal rights....

Quote

What he experiences IS his destiny.  Something we can take into our own hands.

Now can you please tell me how a black guy "could take his destiny into his own hands" in say 1800 in New Orleans?

You are implying that it was their fault that they were not free let alone run for mayors.

[Toni]

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters", Epictetus

[Zork]

Just now, Toni said:

"It's not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters", Epictetus

I agree 100% but this doesn't have to do with destiny at all.

[Mskied]

2 minutes ago, Zork said:

How he reacts is part of purpose. People either take over or accept. I was very specific when i said he might turn a scammer. He might play victim or try to actively participate despite handicaps. Blind men/women are just examples of someone who was born with a handicap due to race, colour, nationality or religion. Even within the same country, would you ever expect a black president in the 1940s? Don't be an idiot and tell me that people didn't try to gain equal rights....

Now can you please tell me how a black guy "could take his destiny into his own hands" in say 1800 in New Orleans?

You are implying that it was their fault that they were not free let alone run for mayors.

This goes back to the Law of Do What Thou Wilt.  We are free to accept what is, or change it.  To live free or die for freedom.  These people had obstacles, but they could have fought against them.

[Toni]

"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is mistery", english saying 

[Zork]

5 minutes ago, Mskied said:

This goes back to the Law of Do What Thou Wilt.  We are free to accept what is, or change it.  To live free or die for freedom.  These people had obstacles, but they could have fought against them.

And what do these have to do with destiny again?  Complete freedom of choice precludes destiny. You can't have both.

These people didn't have choice at all. Or rather they had the option of two equally miserable choices like many many people in history. They had the choice to live as slaves or to die. None of the options gave freedom to anyone.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Zork

[Mskied]

You can have complete freedom in choice but the events in which you are put into are set in motion prior to your interaction, and so, the events themselves make up destiny, and this is something we can alter- with freedom of choice.

[Mskied]

Which is why I felt that Crowleys answer to the problems of imperfect civilization is not good enough because he did not take the steps to alter the affairs of man, only to liberate them to alter them, according to their Will, and not with reasonable observations about what makes a safe and healthy society

[Zork]

2 minutes ago, Mskied said:

You can have complete freedom in choice but the events in which you are put into are set in motion prior to your interaction, and so, the events themselves make up destiny, and this is something we can alter- with freedom of choice.

in a word NO.

I already told you that you can't have freedom of choice and destiny. It is either/or.

Freedom of choice is to be able to choose to rule a state one day and live as a beggar the other and the third to be a ruler again. That is freedom. No human being has ever experienced that.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Zork

[Mskied]

That will fit if you believe that there is something outside of manifest reality that guides us, and I suppose that could be true, but as we are not only potentially that, we are also choice, the only answer is what we call Free Will, and so both take part.  Both are equal parts of our ability to control and interact with destiny.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Mskied

[Earl Grey]

Man, you really don’t know history either and any black American would stop listening to your drivel about destiny already, and that’s forgetting Native Americans on top of that.

[Mskied]

12 minutes ago, Zork said:

in a word NO.

I already told you that you can't have freedom of choice and destiny. It is either/or.

Freedom of choice is to be able to choose to rule a state one day and live as a beggar the other and the third to be a ruler again. That is freedom. No human being has ever experienced that.

Youre wrong.  I have the freedom TO TRY to rule a state, and the freedom to CHOOSE to live as a beggar.  Whether I actually accomplish that is another thing.

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Youre wrong.  I have the freedom TO TRY to rule a state, and the freedom to CHOOSE to live as a beggar.  Whether I actually accomplish that is another thing.

Let’s see: you’re making bold statements that mean different things to different people, such as those who have privilege and those who don’t, you’re making it universally applicable, and you’re ignoring both facts and flaws in your reasoning—and somehow, you’re the victim here for people pointing out what’s funny about your fallacies?

[Mskied]

If you want to thwart privilege, or grant privilege to a people that have none, do what thou wilt to bring about that change.  What else can you do?

[Earl Grey]

8 minutes ago, Mskied said:

If you want to thwart privilege, or grant privilege to a people that have none, do what thou wilt to bring about that change.  What else can you do?

Instead of vague platitudes, use historical examples that prove your speculation.

[Mskied]

um... the Revolutionary War?  Martin Luther King?  The French Revolution?  

[Earl Grey]

Just now, Mskied said:

um... the Revolutionary War?  Martin Luther King?  The French Revolution?  

You are mentioning the events, but you aren’t explaining how they prove your point.

 

That is as useless as me crying out random names of intellectuals and making YOU reason out how that supports my argument.
 

The burden of proof is on you, not me to figure out what is going on in the abysmal depths of that hollow space where your brain should be located.

 

So: explain, don’t just give the name of the historical events.

[Mskied]

44 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Which is why I felt that Crowleys answer to the problems of imperfect civilization is not good enough because he did not take the steps to alter the affairs of man, only to liberate them to alter them, according to their Will, and not with reasonable observations about what makes a safe and healthy society

 

 

Crowley did one thing:  he restated a fact that had been somewhat concealed from the masses, and that is:  history.  Mankinds history is filled with stories about how warfaring kings made their fortunes and kingdoms off of war- basically, Do What Thou Wilt.  Crowleys idea was that on an individual level, we should all be doing this. It really wasn't that new at the time, but it was something that was probably being concealed by the governing bodies- something that still goes on today.  We are kept ignorant of history, mostly because the Jews/Christians want us to pretend that love is the answer, and that we should not kill.  That is not Truth, and it isn't how the elite play.  Crowley was sick of this, thought it unjust- said that we all deserve the right to have our liberties too!  He was pissed, and justifiably so- that we are kept sheep while other men get fat.  He created Thelema so that all men could engage in this Divine Right of having power, and being able to be satisfied.  He poo pooed the "life is suffering, desire is suffering" and justifiably so, for it is not the desire that is suffering, it is not getting it!  

 

I complained about Do What Thou Wilt because it didn't satisfy my thought that we should indeed not hurt each other in the pursuit of our want, and the best I could come up with was "Do not obstruct" and I defined this well, and the Gods cheered, but one voice said "No" and if one says no, then I must keep working.  Locke had already proposed this anyway, so I keep trying.  Do not obstruct is good, but not good enough for those without power, and if there are any without power, then the whole thing must fall.  

 

Crowley was right, in a sense, because it is something we individually and collectively need to work on, and he proposed his share of ideas on how to make this right, as we all should.  I am simply doing my part.

[Mskied]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

You are mentioning the events, but you aren’t explaining how they prove your point.

 

That is as useless as me crying out random names of intellectuals and making YOU reason out how that supports my argument.
 

The burden of proof is on you, not me to figure out what is going on in the abysmal depths of that hollow space where your brain should be located.

 

So: explain, don’t just give the name of the historical events.

Ill do what I want, when I want, and if you don't want to think, that's on you.

[Earl Grey]

2 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Ill do what I want, when I want, and if you don't want to think, that's on you.

Ah, so because you can’t elaborate your argument, it’s my fault? You’re either lazy or you have no good argument to support your ludicrous babbling, but either way, you’re still wearing the victim cap!