Knowledge is very simple

[Mskied]

You really are quite trite!  And a bore, really.

[Earl Grey]

5 minutes ago, Mskied said:

You really are quite trite!  And a bore, really.

At least I won’t be unoriginal like you.

[Zork]

59 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Youre wrong.  I have the freedom TO TRY to rule a state, and the freedom to CHOOSE to live as a beggar.  Whether I actually accomplish that is another thing.

Oh really?! Can you point an example on history where a king became a beggar and a king again?

If not then don't even dare responding!

[Mskied]

Your mode of conversation reminds me of the grade school playground.  How original.

[Mskied]

Just now, Zork said:

Oh really?! Can you point an example on history where a king became a beggar and a king again?

If not then don't even dare responding!

The Buddah

[Zork]

23 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Ill do what I want, when I want, and if you don't want to think, that's on you.

Why should we give a f*ck about what a nobody with no argumentation to back his opinion thinks?

You are only making a fool of yourself by insisting on your faulty logic despite evidence to the contrary.

And personally i deeply despise people that believe that poverty is a self inflicted condition. They are worse than cockroaches!

[Zork]

3 minutes ago, Mskied said:

The Buddah

Lol the buddha never became king again. Stfu

[Mskied]

lol.  Fool.

[Zork]

Just now, Mskied said:

lol.  Fool.

This coming from a lowly existence like you is the highest compliment

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, Mskied said:

The Buddah

Again, tossing out a name but no elaboration! 
 

Here, I’ll use your method!

 

”Give us an example of a person who went from poor to rich to poor and rich again!”

 

Marcos! Napoleon!

 

”How?”

 

Look it up yourself!

 

”We know, but why do you use this example?!”

 

You figure it out!

 

”We don’t know your reasoning!”

 

Not my problem! 
 

“You’re still not proving your point!”

 

STOP BEING JERKS AND LET ME BELIEVE WHAT I WANT!

 

”But we don’t know why you believe it!”

 

ad infinitum

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Your mode of conversation reminds me of the grade school playground.  How original.

Probably because you’re most comfortable with it with how you’ve been acting.

[Mskied]

Some of you don't end!  Its hilarious!  But really, Im going to have to let you go now.  Id rather spend my time considering other things.  

[rideforever]

Everyone has to learn, through learning one becomes free step by step.

There is neither perfect freedom nor perfect bondage.

Fear and cowardice leads you to the grave, and you don't exercise whatever small options you might have.

Someone of limited possibilities is given limited opportunities; one must prove oneself.

It is easier to imagine a world were plates of food are thrust before you to lap up at your leisure ... but who will be making your lunch for you ?

All learning requires effort.

All accomplishments require effort.

One has to participate in the work, not the talk.

 

Do What Thou Wilt means exercise whatever you can right now, and again and again.

This leads to self-knowledge, self-power, self-freedom. 

You do not cower either from yourself or the world, but slowly grow.

What is it that you wish to do ?

Nor do you "try to help others", isn't it clear this is just an excuse for no-one to take any responsibility for yourself.

Even birds and cows look after themselves and don't dream of other people doing it for them, how lazy and stupid people are.

Crowley realised as if it isn't obvious that many people too easily hand over the keys to their soul as if they aren't interested ... so how can you save such people ?  They don't wish to be saved.

 

The only people worth anything are those who live by doing what they can right here right now and slowly exercise their will growing in power.  This is rewarded at all levels, by your boss, by your self-knowledge and by existence.

If you live like this you may one day have an excess that you can share, you can share what you have made.

Others will have made nothing and done nothing, still imagining some grand organisation will do it and "free the world".

[Earl Grey]

6 minutes ago, Mskied said:

Some of you don't end!  Its hilarious!  But really, Im going to have to let you go now.  Id rather spend my time considering other things.  

Yet you keep coming back for more!

 

Seriously, lad: buy a Moleskine and a good pen, and have someone read your own work back to you while you’re at it.

[Mskied]

So I wanted to go over this for those that are new to the Golden Dawn and Crowley, and of course, my Wiccan friends.  Wicca isn't as detailed but they can participate as well, because they are a school of Magick, and have a Law that I like.

 

A friend of mine is Wiccan and he chose to be it because he told himself that Christianity was not the Truth, but at its heart, Wicca is so much like Christianity that it shocks me that he hates it so much.  He hates it because of the obvious restrictions they put upon themselves as they harm none- and to me, Christ explains this better than nearly anyone.  The Wiccan says "Do What Thou Will, harm none" but in doing, there are so many areas that we can cause harm, and Christianity is so very aware of this on so many levels.  Anyway, I am not here to discuss these so much as tie this together if I can.

 

The Golden Dawn has a book by the Ciccero's that explains initiation very well.  Better, I think, than Crowley does.  Crowley is a little too cluttered up for me, but for the well read and researched, he does a good job.  Unfortunately for me I was led to Crowley first, and it took years to understand, when this book titled "Self initiation into the Golden Dawn" sets it out more clearly.  They set it out clearly because in order to use this book you need nothing but one ideal:  what is your Law?  You go from there and create your astral form, and engage in life movements according to this Truth, and imagine scenarios for future reference.  

 

Declaring a Law is important because this is your primary comprehension of what should be.  All traditions have different rules and for me, I never committed to one because I couldn't find what that rule was.  That is why I am fond of personal Magick, because it lets me find it first, and then I can come to these other traditions and compare.

 

So what is your rule?  If it is "Do What Thou Wilt", then there really is nothing to hold you back in the sense of rules, except that as you go about this you start to acquire some because you don't want to keep making the same mistakes.  On a global level, in order to be an effectual sage or leader, one needs to know their rule, so that they can gather followers of their Wisdom, and see their Will enacted.  This is very important too in personal relationships, for we should want to see our Will accomplished in arguments.

 

What is the Rule of the Universe?  If you look at history, it seems that they with the biggest knife or the most logical idea is king, and this has been true for millennia.  Is this Good?  For those of us at the bad end of the knife, no, it is not, and that is why great Masters have come to declare new rules to disarm the war faring Kings.  As I said before, there should be one "right" way, from a view of holding all life as valuable and sacred, to do things.  This way would entail a prosperous method for all people to interact with the goings on of civilization in a way that harms none of us, and benefits us all, and one of these benefits is personal happiness.  In a perfect world that includes no harm, there would be no perversions to happiness such as self pain, so you can throw out the idea that happiness includes harming ones self.  Whether this is something we can accomplish ever remains to be seen.  Some great people say that life is suffering and unavoidable, and when you consider our environment and the effort of our labor, and accidents in handling these things, it is True, but that does not mean we should take joy in them; for they are something to manage and work against.

 

So if what I put forth is the rule, and in light of watching society, I think the movers of change believe this to be True, then from here we move forward in creating ourselves in flow of that Truth.  As we are probably not exposed to other people that work for this goal, we have accumulated methods that might cause harm to ourselves and others, and it is this that we need to dismantle should we move forward seeking the light of this idea.  If not, we are part of the stream that the modern idealists fight against, and will find conflict among them.  

 

One of the ideas I have is that we cannot always know the consequences of our choices before making them, and so we will suggest to ourselves and to others to try some things.  This is natural from a state of ignorance as we mature, and my only advice here is that when you suggest to someone else an action, you include your hope for outcome, and create a sort of contract to follow through with whatever comes.  Contracts are essential:  this is one of the most important things we must master, for in offering an idea for action, we must receive the agreement on the other participants before moving forward.  As I said, we cannot always know the outcome, but if the idea is presented in the best fashion with the outcome clearly proposed, all parties that agree will have to accept the outcome of that arrangement.  What comes to mind in terms of this are the unspoken rules of courtship and friendship, for nearly all other agreements are formed around rules with certain expected results for co-operation.  The social contract of a society has its government to administer Laws of public space, but so much of our strife and grief comes from arrangements we make in the pursuit of friendly bonds and marriages.  These things need to be discussed lest we wind up with ignorant resentments and broken hearts.  I really believe that Love, as great a gift as it is, is the great battleground of suffering.  Laws are made on Love- for when we are fair, we Love, and when we co-operate, we Love, and when we share, we Love, and when we make arrangements to agree, it is because we come to realize something Good for all parties, and that is a Loving intention on the part of a group of people; that all of us benefit.  Therefore Love Truly is the Law, for it is what we base our Laws upon.

[Mskied]

I believe in "Do What Thou Wilt" because I believe that children should be allowed to experiment and create.  Its necessary for our evolution to design, and to redesign, and without the power to do that- were we all to be so restricted to one method; there would be no new invention, and the experience of life would suffer to some degree.  I also believe that we cannot possibly master harm none, and as that is the case, there will always be the need to do what must be done in the light of injustice.

[Mskied]

In order to know, a person must prepare, and then execute.  Think and then do.  Conceive and then create.  Seduce and then make love.  Run and then rest. Cook and then eat.  Indulge in something, embrace the senses of experience, and then comment.

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Zork said:

Oh really?! Can you point an example on history where a king became a beggar and a king again?

If not then don't even dare responding!

 

Only if they go crazy for a bit  

 

 

 

Nebuchadnezzar by William Blake 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Mskied said:

The Buddah

 

Thats silly .  See above  (I even tried to help you today  )

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Mskied said:

Some of you don't end!  Its hilarious!  But really, Im going to have to let you go now.  Id rather spend my time considering other things.  

 

Have you thought about getting a job ?

 

And contributing something valuable to society ?

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, Mskied said:

So I wanted to go over this for those that are new to the Golden Dawn and Crowley, and of course, my Wiccan friends.  Wicca isn't as detailed but they can participate as well, because they are a school of Magick, and have a Law that I like.

 

A friend of mine is Wiccan and he chose to be it because he told himself that Christianity was not the Truth, but at its heart, Wicca is so much like Christianity that it shocks me that he hates it so much.  He hates it because of the obvious restrictions they put upon themselves as they harm none- and to me, Christ explains this better than nearly anyone.  The Wiccan says "Do What Thou Will, harm none" but in doing, there are so many areas that we can cause harm, and Christianity is so very aware of this on so many levels.  Anyway, I am not here to discuss these so much as tie this together if I can.

 

The Golden Dawn has a book by the Ciccero's that explains initiation very well.  Better, I think, than Crowley does.  Crowley is a little too cluttered up for me, but for the well read and researched, he does a good job.  Unfortunately for me I was led to Crowley first, and it took years to understand, when this book titled "Self initiation into the Golden Dawn" sets it out more clearly.  They set it out clearly because in order to use this book you need nothing but one ideal:  what is your Law?  You go from there and create your astral form, and engage in life movements according to this Truth, and imagine scenarios for future reference.  

 

Declaring a Law is important because this is your primary comprehension of what should be.  All traditions have different rules and for me, I never committed to one because I couldn't find what that rule was.  That is why I am fond of personal Magick, because it lets me find it first, and then I can come to these other traditions and compare.

 

So what is your rule?  If it is "Do What Thou Wilt", then there really is nothing to hold you back in the sense of rules, except that as you go about this you start to acquire some because you don't want to keep making the same mistakes.  On a global level, in order to be an effectual sage or leader, one needs to know their rule, so that they can gather followers of their Wisdom, and see their Will enacted.  This is very important too in personal relationships, for we should want to see our Will accomplished in arguments.

 

What is the Rule of the Universe?  If you look at history, it seems that they with the biggest knife or the most logical idea is king, and this has been true for millennia.  Is this Good?  For those of us at the bad end of the knife, no, it is not, and that is why great Masters have come to declare new rules to disarm the war faring Kings.  As I said before, there should be one "right" way, from a view of holding all life as valuable and sacred, to do things.  This way would entail a prosperous method for all people to interact with the goings on of civilization in a way that harms none of us, and benefits us all, and one of these benefits is personal happiness.  In a perfect world that includes no harm, there would be no perversions to happiness such as self pain, so you can throw out the idea that happiness includes harming ones self.  Whether this is something we can accomplish ever remains to be seen.  Some great people say that life is suffering and unavoidable, and when you consider our environment and the effort of our labor, and accidents in handling these things, it is True, but that does not mean we should take joy in them; for they are something to manage and work against.

 

So if what I put forth is the rule, and in light of watching society, I think the movers of change believe this to be True, then from here we move forward in creating ourselves in flow of that Truth.  As we are probably not exposed to other people that work for this goal, we have accumulated methods that might cause harm to ourselves and others, and it is this that we need to dismantle should we move forward seeking the light of this idea.  If not, we are part of the stream that the modern idealists fight against, and will find conflict among them.  

 

One of the ideas I have is that we cannot always know the consequences of our choices before making them, and so we will suggest to ourselves and to others to try some things.  This is natural from a state of ignorance as we mature, and my only advice here is that when you suggest to someone else an action, you include your hope for outcome, and create a sort of contract to follow through with whatever comes.  Contracts are essential:  this is one of the most important things we must master, for in offering an idea for action, we must receive the agreement on the other participants before moving forward.  As I said, we cannot always know the outcome, but if the idea is presented in the best fashion with the outcome clearly proposed, all parties that agree will have to accept the outcome of that arrangement.  What comes to mind in terms of this are the unspoken rules of courtship and friendship, for nearly all other agreements are formed around rules with certain expected results for co-operation.  The social contract of a society has its government to administer Laws of public space, but so much of our strife and grief comes from arrangements we make in the pursuit of friendly bonds and marriages.  These things need to be discussed lest we wind up with ignorant resentments and broken hearts.  I really believe that Love, as great a gift as it is, is the great battleground of suffering.  Laws are made on Love- for when we are fair, we Love, and when we co-operate, we Love, and when we share, we Love, and when we make arrangements to agree, it is because we come to realize something Good for all parties, and that is a Loving intention on the part of a group of people; that all of us benefit.  Therefore Love Truly is the Law, for it is what we base our Laws upon.

 

 

To understand what Crowley wrote he considered you would need some type of  Education , especially in the classics first .

 

I suggest you start here ;   Gorgias by Plato

[Zork]

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Only if they go crazy for a bit  

 

 

 

Nebuchadnezzar by William Blake 

The consensus among critical scholars is that the book of Daniel is historical fiction.^[16][17][18]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II

The incident is only mentioned in the book of Daniel which isn't a historical source.

Most of the old testament is fictional. It is Hebrew mythology in other words important to understand the idiosyncrasies of the jews but of little historical value.

 

So no historical examples then. It makes sense not to have ever happened because the power structures that allow one to climb the ladder of power are not there once he becomes a beggar

 

[ilumairen]

On 11/13/2019 at 7:18 AM, Mskied said:

What he experiences IS his destiny.  Something we can take into our own hands.

 

Generally, destiny is equated with determinism and set in opposition to free will.

 

Even Machiavelli's Prince was beholden to luck and chance. And Cesare Borgia (the prince) appeared to have some deep affiliation with Fortuna - even as his will restructured what we call Italy. In the end, Fortuna's wheel turned... a destiny which was beyond his control. 

[Earl Grey]

7 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Generally, destiny is equated with determinism and set in opposition to free will.

 

Even Machiavelli's Prince was beholden to luck and chance. And Cesare Borgia (the prince) appeared to have some deep affiliation with Fortuna - even as his will restructured what we call Italy. In the end, Fortuna's wheel turned... a destiny which was beyond his control. 

Fortuna—again another reminder of A Confederacy of Dunces and Ignatius J. Reilly who always talked about how Fortuna affected him because of his fondness for Boethius’ The Consolation of Philosophy—and the running gag is that he cites the book often but completely misses the point by of destiny as spelled out in the book while claiming to be an authority on it.

[ilumairen]

On 11/13/2019 at 7:38 AM, Mskied said:

1. If that is the case, then the idea here is that all people have the same destiny- to live and to die, but that the actual experiences of life are based upon the set of circumstances that we are born into and with.  Is that destiny, or is it fate?  Can we avert this by taking control of what goes on with these factors?  I think we can.  

 

And who is to say this supposed "taking of control" isn't simply a natural progression of life understandings and experience? Thereby making it simply another indicator of "fate" and also beyond one's actual control, in spite of the "illusion" control exists.

 

Written conversationally and as considerations - not argumentation.