Knowledge is very simple

[ilumairen]

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Fortuna—again another reminder of A Confederacy of Dunces and Ignatius J. Reilly who always talked about how Fortuna affected him because of his fondness for Boethius’ The Consolation of Philosophy—and the running gag is that he cites the book often but completely misses the point by of destiny as spelled out in the book while claiming to be an authority on it.

 

Never read the book you refer to, but it sounds a bit entertaining. 

 

Fortuna really came home for me as I studied the life of Borgia - a real life example of the influence of chance/fate, and it's juxtaposition with will. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by ilumairen

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, ilumairen said:

 

Never read the book you refer to, but it sounds a bit entertaining. 

 

Fortuna really came home for me as I studied the life of Borgia - a real life example of the influence of chance/fate, and it's juxtaposition with will. 

It is one of the most beautifully-written books in the English language—a must in any library.

[ilumairen]

 

On 11/13/2019 at 7:38 AM, Zork said:

You are implying that it was their fault that they were not free let alone run for mayors.

 

I don't think he's gotten to the point of recognizing this aspect of the proposed understanding. Sometimes it takes awhile to get there, and some never do - comfortable with a view which enables a sense of their own power.

[ilumairen]

On 11/13/2019 at 7:42 AM, Mskied said:

This goes back to the Law of Do What Thou Wilt.  We are free to accept what is, or change it.  To live free or die for freedom.  These people had obstacles, but they could have fought against them.

 

(bold mine) 

 

Have you ever been legitimately dominated?

 

Whenever I determine to be conversational with you (because you touch upon subjects I find interesting) you throw something such as the above out there, and I'm left with a "wtf? Can he really be this ignorant?" Please educate yourself - especially if you're going to start threads entitled "knowledge is very simple".

[ilumairen]

21 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

It is one of the most beautifully-written books in the English language—a must in any library.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. It is now added to my reading list.

[ilumairen]

On 11/13/2019 at 7:47 AM, Mskied said:

You can have complete freedom in choice but the events in which you are put into are set in motion prior to your interaction, and so, the events themselves make up destiny, and this is something we can alter- with freedom of choice.

 

If you believe you have complete freedom of choice you haven't gone far enough with the "peeling of the onion"...

 

Complete Freedom of Choice is the fairy tale people who don't wish to understand the suffering of others tell themselves as they curl up under their down comforters with their heads resting on their feather pillows in their heated homes. 

[Mskied]

You have the freedom to choose whatever options are available to you to respond to your situation.  You will probably never know them all though.  Still, every second is the option to choose, its just a matter of what to choose from.

[ilumairen]

4 minutes ago, Mskied said:

You have the freedom to choose whatever options are available to you to respond to your situation.  You will probably never know them all though.  Still, every second is the option to choose, its just a matter of what to choose from.

 

What determines which options are available? Isn't this "available options" simply short hand for limited choices? And wouldn't this limitation of choices then negate the idea of "complete freedom to choose"?

 

 

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Mskied said:

You have the freedom to choose whatever options are available to you to respond to your situation.  You will probably never know them all though.  Still, every second is the option to choose, its just a matter of what to choose from.

Man, you honestly don’t know how privilege and trauma, as well as power structures, not only affect the choices people have, but control and limit their understanding of what’s available.

 

If I tell you to choose between Coke and Pepsi, then that’s not really a choice because I don’t tell you that you can say no to both or ask for water, and even then the end result is you’re still paying me for the refreshments and I’m still gathering data for consumer choices.

 

If you say the sulfur workers in Java have a choice, you really don’t know the limits of people in less-privileged or favorable circumstances when poverty and geography make life difficult for people. As a matter of fact, my old professor once said “geography is destiny” because you either have favorable circumstances or you don’t and thus you migrate or in the past you colonized or were colonized. 

Or hell, even former convicts trying to live a “normal” life when the system actively denies them the chance to redeem themselves because criminal records close too many doors for employment and housing.

 

And even if you said we won’t know all our options, you really don’t understand what role trauma and the power structures play—look at how former brothel workers or child soldiers struggle to even know that there are programs in some countries for them.

 

Seriously: get outside of your head and away from suburban privilege, get into the books and a class or two, and get into the habit of being open to feedback and considering that your brain farts and ramblings aren’t conclusive.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Nungali]

59 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Man, you honestly don’t know how privilege and trauma, as well as power structures, not only affect the choices people have, but control and limit their understanding of what’s available.

 

True in the affluent west as well . We have so many choices at the supermarket ... how wonderful !  A whole half row of 'different' types of toilet paper . Yes, they are different, that one has a picture of a puppy on it , mmmmmmm   soft.  The next one has some green leaves on it ...... most of the packaged  food  is just different arrangements of a dozen or so ingredients .

 

We could do this with anything ;  I have visited a house where  a ridiculous amount of channels are available on their tv ,,,, but its 95 % rubbish .  You can buy a nice car , a ford, jaguar hyundai or mercedes .... but now they all look the same , like a cross between an aero dynamic sports shoe and a compute mouse .

 

Ho hum .

 

Thats why a lot of  rich westerners love to go to Asia

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

If I tell you to choose between Coke and Pepsi, then that’s not really a choice because I don’t tell you that you can say no to both or ask for water, and even then the end result is you’re still paying me for the refreshments and I’m still gathering data for consumer choices.

 

Or, one could take the sample offered and then

 

 

 throw it to the ground !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

If you say the sulfur workers in Java have a choice, you really don’t know the limits of people in less-privileged or favorable circumstances when poverty and geography make life difficult for people. As a matter of fact, my old professor once said “geography is destiny” because you either have favorable circumstances or you don’t and thus you migrate or in the past you colonized or were colonized. 

Or hell, even former convicts trying to live a “normal” life when the system actively denies them the chance to redeem themselves because criminal records close too many doors for employment and housing.

 

And even if you said we won’t know all our options, you really don’t understand what role trauma and the power structures play—look at how former brothel workers or child soldiers struggle to even know that there are programs in some countries for them.

 

Seriously: get outside of your head and away from suburban privilege, get into the books and a class or two, and get into the habit of being open to feedback and considering that your brain farts and ramblings aren’t conclusive.

 

 

Yes .   then it goes from not having a  proper choice of drink as you where not offered water, just coke and pepsi to not having a choice of drink as the only thing available is polluted diseased water . I suppose then the only choice is to  drink it and maybe die or not drink it and  certainly die .

 

See .  We all got a choice .    ....  within the options available .

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Nungali

[Zork]

13 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

 

I don't think he's gotten to the point of recognizing this aspect of the proposed understanding. Sometimes it takes awhile to get there, and some never do - comfortable with a view which enables a sense of their own power.

His opinions are a spit in the face on all people throughout history that have been oppressed either via foreign powers, domestic social structures or just plain simple interpersonal violence.

To quote Thucydides " the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. ". So those in position of strength do have choices; the weak rarely do or if they can chose it is usually choosing the lesser evil.

Quote

Generally, destiny is equated with determinism and set in opposition to free will.

Yes but IMHO destiny is more like potential that you are born with. @Nungali alludes to it through his links and i tend to agree. It mainly creates restrictions on what you can do. For example, we, here in TDB, can't be crowned kings of Britain because we are not royal and not British. No amount of willpower can change that.

An heir to a kingdom can abdicate and become a commoner, a commoner can't chose to become an heir and a royal.

Free will depends on freedom of choice. For most people choice is illusory. Like @Earl Grey  mentions, choosing between what soda you want to drink isn't real choice.

 

PS  The royalty examples are used to pinpoint the most extreme case of destiny predetermined largely through birth. There are many examples of disenfranchised people ending up in bad situations because of the time and place they were born at ,that can be used instead.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Zork

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Zork said:

To quote Thucydides " the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. ". So those in position of strength do have choices; the weak rarely do or if they can chose it is usually choosing the lesser evil.

Also the figures like Robespierre who believed that the masses were too stupid to decide what was best for them but he was most fit to decide. Sadly, many populist leaders fit this mold.

 

1 hour ago, Zork said:

PS  The royalty examples are used to pinpoint the most extreme case of destiny predetermined largely through birth. There are many examples of disenfranchised people ending up in bad situations because of the time and place they were born at ,that can be used instead

A lot of other examples besides royalty work. These include being born with birth defects that can affect one for life, whether cerebral palsy or even children born of parents with HIV, and then of course children from extramarital affairs whose parents don’t want them or can’t take them. 

[rideforever]

19 hours ago, Mskied said:

You have the freedom to choose whatever options are available to you to respond to your situation.  You will probably never know them all though.  Still, every second is the option to choose, its just a matter of what to choose from.

 

I can only commend you on your willingness to exercise your will and choose wisely and intelligently, and to have a sense of your own aliveness and power, and to feed yourself from the intelligence of great beings of the past.