Xing and Ming cultivation

[dwai]

Seeking some feedback on the following. Please feel free to post your thoughts/comments (please be concise and to the point if possible. If you write a 1000+ word essay, it makes my eyes glaze over and avoid reading it.  ) --

 

Xing is "Original nature or True Nature", and lies in the domain of consciousness. Its root is the spiritual heart/MDT.

 

Ming is the" Life force or Qi", and lies in the domain of energy, and its root is the Lower Dan tien.

 

Practices like Qigong work on Ming. Xing needs more intricate (and simpler) forms of meditation wherein emphasis is not on cultivation and "adding to" (jing, qi and Shen) and/or "transformation" (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen), but rather of letting go and reduction/elimination (of artificial mental concepts, preconceptions and even subject-object interactions, aka Shen to Emptiness). 

 

Ming requires/implies "you wei" or doing, while Xing requires "wu wei" or not-doing.  But the two are not mutually exclusive, but rather parts of a continuum. Without proper cultivation of Ming, Xing cannot be realized(?). 

 

We have to go from doing to not-doing, effort to effortlessness. All it takes is patience, sincerity and clarity of mind. 

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by dwai

[Taomeow]

Depends on your lineage.  These neidan notions are the “foundation” (ti 體 ) and the “operation” (yong 用 ) of one another.  The Southern (Nanzong 南 宗 ) schools give precedence to the cultivation of ming, and the Northern (Beizong 北宗 ) emphazise the cultivation of xing.  And to top it off, the “conjoined cultivation of xing and ming” (xingming shuangxiu 性 命雙修 ) is much discussed in both. 

 

So it basically becomes the question of temporal sequence -- which one between xing and ming is seen as the basis for cultivating the other in order to realize both.  Some schools see the cultivation of life as the prerequisite (my favorite quote capturing this attitude is not from taoism but from essentially "taoesque" Ralph Waldo Emerson: "Stand up and live before you sit down and write" -- which can be applied to "before you sit down and cultivate").  Others believe that cultivation of heart-mind is necessary first for the life realizing itself harmoniously.  Chicken and egg problem. 

 

Personally, I believe in a kind of yo-yo cultivation of now xing, now ming, where every next stage of one (doesn't matter which) informs the next stage of the other and helps it arrive at a new level -- ultimately both arriving at a new level with every such "upgrade."  Experientially, that's how it goes for most modern cultivators.  If you focus on one exclusively, you lose perspective of the other, thereby  losing traction of either xing or ming and, consequently, and somewhat paradoxically, both --  attending to just one is not unlikely to impede the other and thereby be impeded itself. 

 

I believe doing it the way tao does it is best.  "Leaving the world and coming into the world."  Being in the world, leaving the world.  Leaving the world behind, manifesting in the world again.  Many taoist sages, reportedly, often did it like that too.  Even Laozi.  

 

The modern real-life sequence is usually "ming before xing" -- unless otherwise predestined.

[KuroShiro]

Ming and Xing, Xing and Ming, I remember when I was reading a Daoist Classic every couple of paragraphs I'd thought: wait a min. which one is Xing and Ming again?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Xing is "Original nature or True Nature", and lies in the domain of consciousness. Its root is the spiritual heart/MDT.

 

 

Isn't Xing related to Yuan Shen? I thought it was rooted in UDT. What is the Chinese word of the spiritual heart you're referring to?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Ming is the" Life force or Qi", and lies in the domain of energy, and its root is the Lower Dan tien.

 

I think Ming is also related to Jing. Are you thinking about Yuan Qi when you say Qi?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Practices like Qigong work on Ming. Xing needs more intricate (and simpler) forms of meditation wherein emphasis is not on cultivation and "adding to" (jing, qi and Shen) and/or "transformation" (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen), but rather of letting go and reduction/elimination (of artificial mental concepts, preconceptions and even subject-object interactions, aka Shen to Emptiness). 

 

But when you' practicing Qigong you're also working with Xing even if it's indirect work, no?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

Ming requires/implies "you wei" or doing, while Xing requires "wu wei" or not-doing.  But the two are not mutually exclusive, but rather parts of a continuum. Without proper cultivation of Ming, Xing cannot be realized(?). 

 

What would you say are the results of Ming Gong?

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

We have to go from doing to not-doing, effort to effortlessness. All it takes is patience, sincerity and clarity of mind. 

 

There's the possibility you can "Wu Wei all the way" from start to finish.

I think ultimately Xing and Ming might be One.

Edited November 12, 2019 by KuroShiro

[dwai]

20 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Ming and Xing, Xing and Ming, I remember when I was reading a Daoist Classic every couple of paragraphs I'd thought: wait a min. which one is Xing and Ming again?

Marblehead used to often write about Xing and Ming. Always confused me too  

Quote

 

Isn't Xing related to Yuan Shen? I thought it was rooted in UDT. What is the Chinese word of the spiritual heart you're referring to?

I wrote that from practical experience. It is the spiritual heart in the center of the chest. This is where the mind rises out of. 

 

Prof Google tells me that Xing comes from the combination of Xin and Sheng. 

Quote

 

I think Ming is also related to Jing. Are you thinking about Yuan Qi when you say Qi?

Yes.

Quote

 

 

But when you' practicing Qigong you're also working with Xing even if it's indirect work, no?

I guess it does...but most people don't go beyond physicality even. 

Quote

 

What would you say are the results of Ming Gong?

Clarity of the mind/stillness of mind. That leads to Self-realization via Xing gong. 

Quote

 

There's the possibility you can "Wu Wei all the way" from start to finish.

That should indeed be the way. But as Taomeow said, in the modern world....

Quote

I think ultimately Xing and Ming might be One.

I agree. I think root of Qi is Shen. Shen is awareness, Qi is its activity. 

Edited November 13, 2019 by dwai
clarification

[EmeraldHead]

A contradiction: "xing cannot be realised" but you also say "xing is in the heart" or "you can wu wei all the way (as in you can ming all the way)" ....

 

In my opinion, xing isn't in any part of the body or part of bodily cells. It is outside the body or timespace because it is the spirit. To clarify, preheaven as well as postheaven seem to be bodily focused area/level of mind IMO, so they are both ming. After all, too much sex depleted preheaven as it does with postheaven, doesn't it? body energy!

 

So again to what I said above, if it is a bodily thing you are realising it, you go deeper in consciousness.

 

So xing would be more like trauma, for example^ too much sex, depletes ming .. or exercises ming (bodily) power while it can help release xing trauma...or watching yourself/everything in your daily life and you find yourself in what you do and say. You find the same thing you had seen maybe when you were a child.

 

 

-----------

Also, about Wei Wu Wei, how can you perform a non action from a level of mind or awareness that is still fuelled by, sustained by and rooted in the body? Xing must be like pure space.

 

So in Nei-Ye it say "it accumulates in the chest of the sages", so rather it expresses itself in the physical world through the chest than being 'stored' there or anything that would imply you can 'move' it around the body, etc.

 

Xing has to be in your other lifetimes/souls as it is here untinted, effortlessly, like the Dao.

 

Edited November 13, 2019 by EmeraldHead

[MIchael80]

On 12.11.2019 at 8:08 PM, dwai said:

Seeking some feedback on the following. Please feel free to post your thoughts/comments (please be concise and to the point if possible. If you write a 1000+ word essay, it makes my eyes glaze over and avoid reading it.  ) --

 

Xing is "Original nature or True Nature", and lies in the domain of consciousness. Its root is the spiritual heart/MDT.

 

Ming is the" Life force or Qi", and lies in the domain of energy, and its root is the Lower Dan tien.

 

Practices like Qigong work on Ming. Xing needs more intricate (and simpler) forms of meditation wherein emphasis is not on cultivation and "adding to" (jing, qi and Shen) and/or "transformation" (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen), but rather of letting go and reduction/elimination (of artificial mental concepts, preconceptions and even subject-object interactions, aka Shen to Emptiness). 

 

Ming requires/implies "you wei" or doing, while Xing requires "wu wei" or not-doing.  But the two are not mutually exclusive, but rather parts of a continuum. Without proper cultivation of Ming, Xing cannot be realized(?). 

 

We have to go from doing to not-doing, effort to effortlessness. All it takes is patience, sincerity and clarity of mind. 

 

 

 

Hi!

 

Problem with this understanding is that it reflects modern daoist understanding. In neidan schools with full method it makes no sense. So i will write from that view.(not many daoists schools still have real ming methods today).

 

Qi gong is not a ming method. Ming is yuan jing/yuan chi the life battery and it can only be replenished with alchemical methods. Because these are pre-heaven energies (another name for pre-heaven would be pre-creational) and they cannot be accessed with qi gong. the qi /life force is post heaven (or within creation). MIng is not in the ldt but somehow ascociated (as these energies are before creation) with it and the kidneys.

 

Xing is yuan shen in neidan. It is ascociated with the Upper dantien. what is in the heart is the xin (not xing) the heart nature. Xing will express itself through the heart though.

There can not be a real xing first in neidan......but ming must always come first because of how the neidan process works (it is one process only but with very different approaches from one school/lineage to another). In neidan xing cannot be realised until ming is replenished and flowing.

It is said some schools do xing first, but that is usually more a xin first (clearing the heart mind) before doing ming and then xing.

 

You cannot realise the xing fully (as it is understood in orthodox neidan lineages) without ming...just not possible. In fact there are neidan lineages which are constant ming gong (which automatically leads to xing realisation and achievement of dao)....this means that is a system of constant doing and when one is done....there is automatic wuwei. True alchemy works with mechanisms that are not used in other spiritual tradtions and because of that cannot be compared to them.

 

In orthodox neidan lineages there is usually nothing like sitting meditation. There maybe sitting exercises but they usually involve hand movements etc.....just silent sitting is used in neidan forms that usually do not have the full method or it is used in very high stages (after the elixir is achieved).

 

hope that helps!

All the best!

Michael

[dwai]

37 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

Hi!

 

Problem with this understanding is that it reflects modern daoist understanding. In neidan schools with full method it makes no sense. So i will write from that view.(not many daoists schools still have real ming methods today).

 

Qi gong is not a ming method. Ming is yuan jing/yuan chi the life battery and it can only be replenished with alchemical methods. Because these are pre-heaven energies (another name for pre-heaven would be pre-creational) and they cannot be accessed with qi gong. the qi /life force is post heaven (or within creation). MIng is not in the ldt but somehow ascociated (as these energies are before creation) with it and the kidneys.

 

Xing is yuan shen in neidan. It is ascociated with the Upper dantien. what is in the heart is the xin (not xing) the heart nature. Xing will express itself through the heart though.

There can not be a real xing first in neidan......but ming must always come first because of how the neidan process works (it is one process only but with very different approaches from one school/lineage to another). In neidan xing cannot be realised until ming is replenished and flowing.

It is said some schools do xing first, but that is usually more a xin first (clearing the heart mind) before doing ming and then xing.

 

You cannot realise the xing fully (as it is understood in orthodox neidan lineages) without ming...just not possible. In fact there are neidan lineages which are constant ming gong (which automatically leads to xing realisation and achievement of dao)....this means that is a system of constant doing and when one is done....there is automatic wuwei. True alchemy works with mechanisms that are not used in other spiritual tradtions and because of that cannot be compared to them.

 

In orthodox neidan lineages there is usually nothing like sitting meditation. There maybe sitting exercises but they usually involve hand movements etc.....just silent sitting is used in neidan forms that usually do not have the full method or it is used in very high stages (after the elixir is achieved).

 

hope that helps!

All the best!

Michael

Can you share some examples of schools that teach the "full method"?

[MIchael80]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

Can you share some examples of schools that teach the "full method"?

Hi!

 

I will define full method first. Schools that have the methods to replenish considerably amounts of yuan jing/chi. (there are schools that think this is impossible and some that have weakened forms of this, meaning they can replenish some but it is extremely time consuming or has a high chance of producing problems etc.) because if you have the knowledge of these methods it shapes how one approaches the rest of the practice.

 

Three i know: the 2 schools that the russians represent (yuxian pai and wuliu pai.....interesting here is that there are branches of wuliu who do not have a full ming method; these 2 schools have extremly strong ming methods)...and a private (mountain) longmen lineage where i have trained in.

There are some other more private lineages in china that still have that (i have heard that Zhang Boduans lineage is still alive and has very powerful ming methods).

 

I would guess that Wang Lipings system has some of that (Nathan Brine will put out a series of books beginning in Feburary 2020 so we can see this system)

quianfengpai has some of that (the lineage from which the famous "taoist yoga" book comes...which is just a part of an manual of that school).

another guess would be that Li Shifu from 5 immortals temple knows some of that too.

 

best

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by MIchael80

[exorcist_1699]

To old guys/ ladies, say those over 60 , of course cultivating Ming is their priority . Theory about Ming is also much easier to grasp as they are related to things like  what postures better , which dantian to start, what time give you most effects , ways of breathing..etc. That means,  old people should handle thing more urgent ,  use things more handy  so as lengthen their life span for decades ,say up to 100,  so that  after retirement  they get the time and energy  to explore Xing . Understanding Xing is much difficult and there is no guarantee, but once people  get it ,   all Ming's problems become easy.

Edited December 5, 2019 by exorcist_1699

[dwai]

7 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

To old guys/ ladies, say those over 60 , of course cultivating Ming is their priority . Theory about Ming is also much easier to grasp as they are related to things like  what postures better , which dantian to start, what time give you most effects , ways of breathing..etc. That means,  old people should handle something more urgent ,  use something more handy  so as lengthen their life span for decades ,say up to 100,  so that  after retirement  they get the time to explore Xing . Understanding Xing is much difficult and there is no guarantee, but once people  get it ,   all Ming's problems become easy.

The way i see it, Xing should be a natural progression from Ming cultivation. Not strictly sequential, but overlapping once one gets to the intermediate level of ming cultivation. As Ming cultivation matures, it leads to greater mental clarity, thereby allowing the practitioner to start grasping Xing. 

 

And this is not unique to Daoist traditions either -- it is similar for Yoga/Tantra and other dharmic practices.

[exorcist_1699]

On 12/5/2019 at 12:27 AM, dwai said:

.. As Ming cultivation matures, it leads to greater mental clarity, thereby allowing the practitioner to start grasping Xing. 

 

And this is not unique to Daoist traditions either -- it is similar for Yoga/Tantra and other dharmic practices.

 

Yeah. But I know not much about other Yoga/Tantra and other dharmic practices. Maybe they have their unique expressions.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by exorcist_1699

[Cleansox]

On 2019-12-04 at 5:27 PM, dwai said:

 

And this is not unique to Daoist traditions either -- it is similar for Yoga/Tantra 

Yes, absolutely. 

They even share the same terms. 

Coincidence? 

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Yes, absolutely. 

They even share the same terms. 

Coincidence? 

Not  coincidental at all. Phenomenologically, at that level, the experiences are identical -- only colored slightly differently due to cultural context. 

[Spotless]

The foundational work of higher Qi Gong is only the beginning

On 11/12/2019 at 11:08 AM, dwai said:

 

Xing is "Original nature or True Nature", and lies in the domain of consciousness. Its root is the spiritual heart/MDT.

 

Ming is the" Life force or Qi", and lies in the domain of energy, and its root is the Lower Dan tien.

 

Practices like Qigong work on Ming. Xing needs more intricate (and simpler) forms of meditation wherein emphasis is not on cultivation and "adding to" (jing, qi and Shen) and/or "transformation" (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen), but rather of letting go and reduction/elimination (of artificial mental concepts, preconceptions and even subject-object interactions, aka Shen to Emptiness). 

 

Ming requires/implies "you wei" or doing, while Xing requires "wu wei" or not-doing.  But the two are not mutually exclusive, but rather parts of a continuum. Without proper cultivation of Ming, Xing cannot be realized(?). 

 

We have to go from doing to not-doing, effort to effortlessness. All it takes is patience, sincerity and clarity of mind. 

 

 

 

Even in the beginning energy is mounting but also breaking up held patterns. Higher Qi Gong is not a practice of “adding to” it is a practice of subtle bodies and growth in solid rooting, core unifying transformations and the opening of vast subtle bodies.

 

Awareness (consciousness) and Lifeforce are everywhere but can be said to have home in LDT or MDT or UDT - but it is all moving and changing with no pushing or compression under willfulness - it is not directed other than by forms and lines of compression in those forms, in the breath and the way of the breath.

 

The breath as tides has four elements - high tide - slack tide - low tide - slack tide.

 

Slack is Xing

- in tides it is when it seems nothing is happening

 

This is not the case in Martial as high, Low and slack tides are manipulated and both are a doing.

 

Most subtle bodies do not grow in forced and manipulated practice.

 

Few practices also utilize proper subtle head movements and arm postures so very little of the head opens - very little.

 

Much of the heart - MDT - is bypassed without the four elements of breath.

 

The intention of breaking up held patterns is important - it require no effort - but one can bring to mind that which one wants to work on just before practice and it will rigidify that pattern and the practice will break it down.

 

This will happen many times.  It is much like in meditation and finding ones stillness and then losing it afterward and then meditating and experiencing stillness again.

 

Higher Qi Gong is not a doing as True Yoga is not a doing.

 

The practice consistently creates the rooting and trunk and canopy - it is ever changing and ever refining and ever more subtle and extending far above and below the gross physical and gross subtle bodies. The compressions of willfulness, DNA, desires, lust,, ebb in the process. 
 

It becomes a delicate expansion in no time and space wherein the crudeness must fall away , the personalities of subtle ruin must fall away - and in this - exquisite energies find their place and the petals form unseen in a golden light.

 

The strong effortless embodiment may well bring with it many Siddhis, the strong rooting will allow for the heart and head winds to be more easily withstood and not distract. 
 

( hope this was less than 1000 words)😎

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Spotless

[Cleansox]

On 2019-11-13 at 12:09 AM, dwai said:

 

I wrote that from practical experience. It is the spiritual heart in the center of the chest. This is where the mind rises out of. 

 

Prof Google tells me that Xing comes from the combination of Xin and Sheng. 

 

In the name of cross-cultural referencing, have you ever linked this to anuttara (the unstruck sound) and/or the iconography surrounding Siva? 

 

[Cleansox]

On 2019-11-13 at 12:09 AM, dwai said:

 

 

Clarity of the mind/stillness of mind. That leads to Self-realization via Xing gong. 

 

@dwai Hi! Hope you are not feeling that I am picking on you (lots of that going on at the moment), I just find this subject interesting and would like to share my opinion.

 

In my vocabulary, what you described in the quoted context was working with xin leading in to xing, that would also be how I interpret the process mentioned by Spotless in the thread about qigong (would post a relevant link here but me and my cellphone won't manage that together 😁) where he writes about breaking down structures. 

My experience would say that Ming is a fuel, working with it affects Xing, but I can work with Xing without having a conscious youwei on the Ming. 

 

Does that make sense, or am I just flapping my uvula here? 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

@dwai Hi! Hope you are not feeling that I am picking on you (lots of that going on at the moment), I just find this subject interesting and would like to share my opinion.

I'm used to the 'love'...though usually the more intense (and unintelligent) critics are put on my ignore list. However, I am always open to civilized exchanges  

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

 

In my vocabulary, what you described in the quoted context was working with xin leading in to xing, that would also be how I interpret the process mentioned by Spotless in the thread about qigong (would post a relevant link here but me and my cellphone won't manage that together 😁) where he writes about breaking down structures. 

Yes breaking down structures is letting go of conceptual constructs. When we start observing the mind with detachment but great focus, it becomes apparent that every bit of identity that we have is a story that is propped up based on memory and a combination of narratives (social, cultural, religious, educational and so on). Even our gender itself is a story, albeit a more body-based one. 

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

My experience would say that Ming is a fuel, working with it affects Xing, but I can work with Xing without having a conscious youwei on the Ming. 

Some people have retained enough of what they were born with (due to karma -- but can be attributed in certain cases to proper upbringing) that they don't need to do the ming work. Their minds are naturally tranquil that with minimal practice they are way ahead of others who have to do a lot of work. 

 

2 hours ago, Cleansox said:

Does that make sense, or am I just flapping my uvula here? 

Not at all...makes perfect sense to me  

 

 

[dwai]

8 hours ago, Cleansox said:

In the name of cross-cultural referencing, have you ever linked this to anuttara (the unstruck sound) and/or the iconography surrounding Siva? 

 

It is a constant companion.

The Anahata sound is ringing in my inner ear 24x7. The Daoists call it the sound of Dao (my master calls it the sound of emptiness) -- sounds like a waterfall or thousands of windchimes going off at the same time, or thousands of cicadas buzzing at the same time at a very high pitch. 

 

I'm not pitching right now, but if you get a copy of my novel and read it, I cover a lot of these topics in it. 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by dwai

[rideforever]

I know Damo Mitchell, Michael Winn and that DragonGate teacher in Texas Jeff something, and possibly many others view enlightenment as the same as it is in India as that internal arts are of a lower category of practice.  Possibly many others feel the same.

It seems that by studying your internal system you can enter the State of Awareness just the same as if you study bonzai.

Consciousness occurs uniquely inside the head and its centres.  Consciousness is the power of recognition-intelligence.  This occurs within the head and not anywhere else.  Awareness is a lower level of realisation in the headspace, in fact there are others in the headspace it is quite complicated up there.

 

I can't see any particular benefit to being physically immortal because all your relatives and age-range will die and then what will you do here on your own.  It would be sad.  So best not to try too much, it is fool's gold.  It is easier for people to understand longevity practices because they use it like organic food.

Awakening is a very different kettle of fish.

Anyway Taoism relates to the awakening of the Dantien which does not really require any taichi or qigong, it is more akin to Indian practice just done at that level.  But internal arts have their benefits, but I am sure that most internal arts practitioners, if they do reach awakening they simply get awakened into the State of Awareness which is not the real Taoist awakening.  Such a person will have strong qi abilities, the State of Awareness in the head ... but not the Taoist awakening ... strange but true.

 

And, humanity really should be able to be happy without awakening just being normal humans with their psyche and mind but there is seems to be some strange inbalance/disturbance in the species that leads them to uncover deep stuff, but to what end I don't know.  Most people want love and good friends don't they.  I can't imagine many of them would be happy with no love or friends or sex, and instead have awareness ... that would be like being an alien.  But you are not an alien you are human.  I have a strange feeling that mankind has confused himself so much that even if he gets awakening it is not really what he wanted.

 

Xing and Ming and the Daodejing ... may be very nice looking but you know it behoves all of us to wake the f up and start checking the details and calling a spade a spade, and learning how to ask our own questions and do our own investigations.  We can't just follow behind like dogs with tongues hanging out.  The ancient stuff might or might not be all right, half right, or not right.

 

[dwai]

 

12 minutes ago, rideforever said:

Awakening is a very different kettle of fish.

Anyway Taoism relates to the awakening of the Dantien which does not really require any taichi or qigong, it is more akin to Indian practice just done at that level.  But internal arts have their benefits, but I am sure that most internal arts practitioners, if they do reach awakening they simply get awakened into the State of Awareness which is not the real Taoist awakening.  Such a person will have strong qi abilities, the State of Awareness in the head ... but not the Taoist awakening ... strange but true.

What do you think Daoist awakening is? And why do you think it differs from awakening in other traditions?

 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, rideforever said:

 

Taoism relates to the awakening of the Dantien 

 

I have seen you mention this in older posts. This is a new terminology for me, can you perhaps write a bit more about this concept? 

[rideforever]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

What do you think Daoist awakening is? And why do you think it differs from awakening in other traditions?

 

Awakening is of a particular centre, we have various centres inside ourself like the heart in the centre of the sternum.  This is where our feelings emanate from in our human life, that is its function in terms of human life it feels.  But to awaken it means it reaches a state of self-recognition ... something like it has intelligence and it's intelligence feels itself and creates a "singularity" it becomes a permanent state of self-recognition or self-knowing ... in the heart.  It is the same for all the centres.  Dantien, Consciousness, Awareness, Solar Plexus etc... there are many centres.

Due to cultural difference (some cultures more grounded, some more feeling, some more intellectual) the culture develops different types of awakening.

It is true that behind all of this is a single centre that is the prime centre ... this is in the forehead ... this is the primal centre ... but it is quite difficult to awaken.  When you awaken the heart, SP, dantien, Consciousness .... you are also partially awakening the centre of centres in the forehead.  Like I said it is very difficult to awaken this one because it is so central so close ... it is too close.  So it is easier to work with Consciousness, Awareness or one of the other centres where there is a bit of space to see what is going on.

Chinese cultures for whatever reason is grounded meaning it is down close to the earth, therefore Dantien.  And because of being down there they have become energy masters hence the internal arts.

afaik

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Awakening is of a particular centre, we have various centres inside ourself like the heart in the centre of the sternum.  This is where our feelings emanate from in our human life, that is its function in terms of human life it feels.  But to awaken it means it reaches a state of self-recognition ... something like it has intelligence and it's intelligence feels itself and creates a "singularity" it becomes a permanent state of self-recognition or self-knowing ... in the heart.  It is the same for all the centres.  Dantien, Consciousness, Awareness, Solar Plexus etc... there are many centres.

Due to cultural difference (some cultures more grounded, some more feeling, some more intellectual) the culture develops different types of awakening.

It is true that behind all of this is a single centre that is the prime centre ... this is in the forehead ... this is the primal centre ... but it is quite difficult to awaken.  When you awaken the heart, SP, dantien, Consciousness .... you are also partially awakening the centre of centres in the forehead.  Like I said it is very difficult to awaken this one because it is so central so close ... it is too close.  So it is easier to work with Consciousness, Awareness or one of the other centres where there is a bit of space to see what is going on.

Chinese cultures for whatever reason is grounded meaning it is down close to the earth, therefore Dantien.  And because of being down there they have become energy masters hence the internal arts.

afaik

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

 

So which one is the Daoist awakening? Awakening of the LDT?

And the awakening of other traditions is that of the Heart? Or the Forehead? Maybe I didn't understand your answer entirely.

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

So which one is the Daoist awakening? Awakening of the LDT?

And the awakening of other traditions is that of the Heart? Or the Forehead? Maybe I didn't understand your answer entirely.

 

Yes the Taoist awakening is of the LDT.  The TTC and other texts are written from people who experience the world through the intelligence of the Dantien, therefore they intrinsically feel the flow of energies within the world.  This is different to the awakening of the Heart and traditions that do that like Sufism which feel the world through the intelligence of the Heart.

 

Whichever centre your tradition is working on there is actually hidden a centre of centres.  This is in the forehead.  It is so difficult to awaken that it is always awakened 2nd or 3rd stage, or not at all.   And it is partially developed through the awakening of any centre.  Perhaps this is not interesting but I say it anyway.

So a Sufi has an awakened heart plus a partially developed centre in the forehead (that he might not realise).

A Taoist has an awakened LDT plus a partially developed centre in the forehead (that he might not realise).

etc...

One of the implications of this is that whichever path you work on you should always do some work with the forehead area, either mid-eye brow meditation or tatrak or anapana  (even if you are only interested in love or energy) because any good forehead work helps all awakenings.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by rideforever

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

I have seen you mention this in older posts. This is a new terminology for me, can you perhaps write a bit more about this concept? 

 

If you work with qi in the internal arts what you are doing is strengthening the energy sub-system of the being, strengthening a routing it through the being in a particular way, developing skill sensitivity intelligence.  All good.  However none of this is awakening.

You are working with the emanation of the Dantien (i.e. what flows out of it and cultivating).

Awakening is about going inside the Dantien and being "I" inside there. which means when you walk down the street you see the street from the identity inside the belly, you feel you are down there.  This requires particular work especially sitting meditation.

 

(I should just add that most things I say I have been taught by a highly adept teacher and did not originate with me)