Xing and Ming cultivation

[dwai]

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

 

Thanks for this, will give it a go and let you know. Always slightly nervous of invocation stuff however do seem more and more drawn to this style of practise of late. 

 

Only comment I would pass is that previously I've been told to use my solar plexus for this type of work, which has driven results but seems more connected to other parts of 'myself'. 

The heart is the key. If this doesn’t awaken, one can’t progress imho. 

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

 

  

Neither do I so I looked it up - apparently sound progresses through several different levels as your ability to interpret 'improves', I believe the next levels pass through 'cymbals', 'flutes', then 'bells' before 'rolling thunder' at the final stage.  Cicada's is an early undeveloped stage.

 

As part of this background search I also read that the ability to improve your interpretation seems to be linked to balancing the sounds between your left and right ears and focusing in on the sound, to the exclusion of all else which I'll also try. It would appear that the trick is to lengthen or 'slow down' the sound so you can better interpret it.  

Don’t know about levels.  I’ve gone through the cymbals, flute, bells, thunder etc much before the current tone happened  . That happened when I first started pranayama some 20 years ago.

 

We just have to remember that these too are phenomena. They will help us in some ways, but are not the end by any stretch of the imagination.  

4 hours ago, Chainer said:

 

Lastly whilst writing this I had a sharp tone change with increased pitch and strong mood swing, more a rising heat than compassion, but still was interesting.  

[dwai]

15 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

Ah, yes, i see.

 

Being inducted by my sifu to his tradition of southern chinese daoist deity-service the formalities of offering incense and conducting introduction and specifying the dealings with names, honorifics etc is for the sake of the deity or spirit as much as ourselves, far too sybolic and specific to be considered as just mood setting.

 

Once a well established report is in place formality goes into either shorthand or is quickly dispensed with, but essentially there is a social aspect to relationships with higher beings.

Even if you’re well acquainted certain observations are important, in the beginning it establishes respect and a space to commune, later on they represent affection and intimate respect.

 

But thats a whole different tradition, pardon the intrusion

The ritualism is good too. I didn’t mean to trivialize it.
 

Anyone who sees Hindu religious rituals will know how much emphasis there is on ritual. 

 

There is an entire formal system of practice with fire rituals combined with mantra practice and is actually the oldest form of Hindu practice (done even to this day). 

[Nintendao]

On 2/5/2020 at 9:21 AM, dwai said:

It is a constant companion.

The Anahata sound is ringing in my inner ear 24x7. The Daoists call it the sound of Dao (my master calls it the sound of emptiness) -- sounds like a waterfall or thousands of windchimes going off at the same time, or thousands of cicadas buzzing at the same time at a very high pitch. 

 

I'm not pitching right now, but if you get a copy of my novel and read it, I cover a lot of these topics in it. 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Yes! In the book, it seems Gautam's initial description could not quite do it justice, but does get the idea across clearly. I love the added comparison of cicada song and wind chimes. Do you think this is related to what's being hinted at by the cicada and waterfall mentioned in the beginning of Ten Ox Herding Pictures?

 

 

 

 

[silent thunder]

Really enjoying the conversation, thanks to all involved.  I have a side question that may be a derail, if so, please ignore.  I'm just sideline curious of an experience that manifested in the last three years or so.

 

Do the classics mention anything about 'internal scents'?  Smells generated and experienced only internally?

 

For a few years I've experienced intense scents that are repeatedly confirmed that no one apart from me is sensing.  They seem to arise from within.  One is unique and highly pleasant and nothing I can put an identifying label on... the other is decidedly unpleasant and smells of cigarette smoke.  They are both exceedingly strong to the point that everyone in the room should also be smelling them, but nada, zilch, zippo.

 

This stands out particularly for those who know me well as, living where I do in the desert, my sense of smell is notoriously dead for long periods of the year.  Where only the most intense scents can pierce through to awareness.

 

Again just curious, ignore if it's off topic.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by silent thunder
fixed a non-sensical sentence... i hope

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

Really enjoying the conversation, thanks to all involved.  I have a side question that may be a derail, if so, please ignore.  I'm just sideline curious of an experience that manifested in the last three years or so.

 

Do the classics mention anything about 'internal scents'?  Smells generated and experienced only internally?

 

For a few years I've experienced intense scents that are repeatedly confirmed that no one apart from me is sensing.  They seem to arise from within.  One is unique and highly pleasant and nothing I can put an identifying label on... the other is decidedly unpleasant and smells of cigarette smoke.  They are both exceedingly strong to the point that everyone in the room should also be smelling them, but nada, zilch, zippo.

 

This stands out particularly for those who know me well as, living where I do in the desert, my sense of smell is notoriously dead for long periods of the year.  Where only the most intense scents can pierce through to awareness.

 

Again just curious, ignore if it's off topic.

 

 

I've had situations where I've had internal scents manifest during taichi practice.

 

There was a period of time  with the smell of cannabis being smoked, though no one around me had lit up. It turns out that someone was 'checking' me out (a meditator in a Himalayan cave) -- and it seems like he was smoking cannabis. 

 

There are specific smells that manifest when someone connects with me which help me recognize them. With my master it is the smell of the incense he burns in his prayer room. With some other friends its a distinct (not unpleasant) odors, but nothing I can pin a label with, yet I know them by the combination of tone and scent. 

 

I'd recommend reading this book. The author covers the topic of scent with shared presence  -- https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Default-James-Swartz-ebook/dp/B07NJYTVH5/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by dwai

[idiot_stimpy]

I believe a lot of my practice has revolved around Xing cultivation with Ming cultivation being largely forgotten. 

 

My only concern with working with Ming is developing an energy state that's too much for me to handle as I do not have accredited teacher.

[freeform]

No Qi - no potential for True transformation - just some experiences. 

[idiot_stimpy]

23 minutes ago, freeform said:

No Qi - no potential for True transformation - just some experiences. 

 

Thank you. I was drawn back to this forum in order to learn more about Qi. 

[silent thunder]

2 minutes ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

Thank you. I was drawn back to this forum in order to learn more about Qi. 

Glad you've returned. 

 

Been reading and re-reading some older conversations and really appreciate some of your insights and perspective.

[Starjumper]

My experiences with smelling energy have to do with smelling sick energy.  It happened some times during the sitting meditation part of my chi kung classes, in which people will give off sick energy as part of their healing.  It smells like a bad fart, but on checking later, nobody farted.  My chi kung teacher's wife once commented that she could smell the sick energy from my liver when we were in our sitting meditations at his place, back when I was taking some medicine that was hard on the liver, and it was clear she had a strong dislike of it.

 

Concerning the sound, I have noticed that the tone of the ringing increases in pitch the more I turn my hands facing palm up, meaning more energy is higher up in my body.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Starjumper

[dwai]

1 hour ago, idiot_stimpy said:

I believe a lot of my practice has revolved around Xing cultivation with Ming cultivation being largely forgotten. 

 

My only concern with working with Ming is developing an energy state that's too much for me to handle as I do not have accredited teacher.

You can start off on some good online training via The Taichi Tao Center or Adam Mizner's school. 

 

[Chainer]

17 hours ago, Nintendao said:

 

Yes! In the book, it seems Gautam's initial description could not quite do it justice, but does get the idea across clearly. I love the added comparison of cicada song and wind chimes. Do you think this is related to what's being hinted at by the cicada and waterfall mentioned in the beginning of Ten Ox Herding Pictures?

 

Thank you for posting this. Seriously. 

 

Over my years of Zen practise I must of read and re-read many versions of this text hundreds of times, yet only now does the actual type of 'progression' of the relevant sounds as confirmatory signs for the various stages of attainment become clear to me.

 

You could say it's a minor element to what is a deep, multi layered text, but I'm actually shocked that it never occurred to me to use them as 'part of my practise' until last couple of days, much as they have been literally screaming at me for years now. Guess I need to learn how to play the flute.     

[ReturnDragon]

Good morning TBMs

You people still trying to figure out what Xing and Ming are? Go ask walker. He always told me what is not but never told me what it is.


Wu Wei
CD/RD

[Cleansox]

He won't tell. Neither will MIchael80, who definetly knows. And I would avoid going in to details of how it is defined in my practice as well. Traditional styles guard this like it was important... 

 

But doing a bit of qigong and getting some heat in the LDT is not it. 

[EmeraldHead]

Most schools, as in - all of them, that I know of which claim to replenish yuan sanbao, use moving exercises.

 

So it's interesting to me that maybe we should divide the mind aspect. Something like:

 

Xing = pure mind, beyond breath and all that

 

Ming = mind in action, or mind in the body or better. Mind of the body. So moving practices come in here. An awareness that creates cohesion of the muscles. When you tense your muscles, despite of muscle structure and training, the will to keep going is something beyond the PUMP gained from post-natal sanbao and it's DTs, IME.

 

I say it creates cohesion to signify an activating force, which is what gives power to pro-create. After all, in procreation you MUST pass on preheaven winter stocks so preheaven is activated.

 

So in this line of thought. Ming would be your intention. So in only sitting and forgetting you aren't involving intention. In simply visualizing you aren't really involving attention but especially not allowing intention to be worked either! (You can keep re-coming back with the intention during visualisation exercises but you are still taking breaks in it every other moment or so and not allowing it to expand like daylight)

 

So now if xing is yuan shen, it would be harder to isolate moment to moment in your awareness. You can think without intention, and this comes from the subconscious.

It is the yuan shen that reincarnates in this daoist house of thought.

Edited February 12, 2020 by EmeraldHead

[ReturnDragon]

Let's put it this way.
What are the most important things in a person. Don't you think they are your mental health and physical health? However, all my sources directed me to interpret the cultivation of Xing and Ming as the cultivation of the mind and body. The goal is have the practitioner to keep a clear conscience at all time. In addition, the homeostasis of a body must maintain to its ultimate realm.

This makes lots of sense to me. BTW This is what I practice to maintain my mental and physical health.

Edited February 12, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

Let's put it this way.
What are the most important things in a person. Don't you think they are your mental health and physical health? However, all my sources directed me to interpret the cultivation of Xing and Ming as the cultivation of the mind and body. 

Yes, but that doesn't automatically lead to how to cultivate the Ming, since that is not cultivating the body in general but rather one specific process. 

Actually, it if fairly well described as a process, it is just the how of it that requires a method. 

[idiot_stimpy]

Is Ming the force of creation and Xing the container or space that allows Ming to operate in. 

[Cleansox]

Perhaps, I would not put it in those words but that doesn't mean you can't. 

If you are better than me in using the vocabulary, you can frame the process in a better way than I can. 

The method I practice leads to the practical understanding and experience of the process, and the words I use to explain it are more directed to the process itself rather than the entire reversal-to-yuansomething terminology that people with more complete training have an understanding of. 

And, like most, I would have to say that I am not supposed to talk about the process. 

That noone does that used to annoy the crap out of me, until I got a practical understanding of it and now I know why. 

[ReturnDragon]

21 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Yes, but that doesn't automatically lead to how to cultivate the Ming, since that is not cultivating the body in general but rather one specific process. 

Actually, it if fairly well described as a process, it is just the how of it that requires a method. 

 

22 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Yes, but that doesn't automatically lead to how to cultivate the Ming, since that is not cultivating the body in general but rather one specific process. 

Actually, it if fairly well described as a process, it is just the how of it that requires a method. 

 

2 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

Perhaps, I would not put it in those words but that doesn't mean you can't. 

If you are better than me in using the vocabulary, you can frame the process in a better way than I can. 

The method I practice leads to the practical understanding and experience of the process, and the words I use to explain it are more directed to the process itself rather than the entire reversal-to-yuansomething terminology that people with more complete training have an understanding of. 

And, like most, I would have to say that I am not supposed to talk about the process. 

That noone does that used to annoy the crap out of me, until I got a practical understanding of it and now I know why. 

Nicely worded.
The cultivation of Ming is only a notion. It leads you to the many processes. How can you make your body healthy. They are all around you. Have you heard of Qi Gong and Tai Chi? If you practice those, then, aren't you in the cultivation of Ming. I have practiced Tai Chi, for many years, which is a form of Qigong. Understand?
 

[Cleansox]

10 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

 

 

Nicely worded.
The cultivation of Ming is only a notion.

No. 

10 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

 

It leads you to the many processes. How can you make your body healthy. They are all around you. Have you heard of Qi Gong and Tai Chi?

Yes. 

10 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

If you practice those, then, aren't you in the cultivation of Ming.

Not specifically, unless you are very skilled. 

10 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

I have practiced Tai Chi, for many years, which is a form of Qigong. Understand?
 

Yes, but see above. 

And read up on your favourite nei dan book, or one of the few TCM books that are nei dan derived. 

 

You will see the difference. 

[ReturnDragon]

10 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

1. Not specifically, unless you are very skilled. 

2. And read up on your favourite nei dan book, or one of the few TCM books that are nei dan derived. 

 

You will see the difference. 

Do you know what cultivation means. We are not born with skills. We need to practice to get there.
Stay away from your nei dan books. Those are old ancient Taoist concepts. If you try to follow them but don't understand them and lead you nowhere. Well, did it lead you anywhere?

Edited February 12, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Earl Grey]

12 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

No. 

Yes. 

Not specifically, unless you are very skilled. 

Yes, but see above. 

And read up on your favourite nei dan book, or one of the few TCM books that are nei dan derived. 

 

You will see the difference. 

RepetitiveDragon has not done Tai Chi, he moves his body slowly after watching videos and thinks it’s Tai Chi. He has no background in TCM or neidan and keeps posting nonsense everywhere that only proves he’s a deluded fool.

[Cleansox]

12 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

Do you know what cultivation means. We are not born with skills. We need to practice to get there.

With proper practice, not generally just practice. 

Quote

Stay away from your nei dan books. Those are old ancient Taoist concepts. If you try to follow them but don't understand them and lead you nowhere. Well, did it lead you anywhere?

I have a teacher and a method. I do not have to resort to books. 

And proper practice leads me to interesting places. 

Books in this genre are mostly confusing, but when you know what you are looking fore you can interpret the gibberish from your own experience. 

 

But this area is just like the feedback you have got in other recent threads. There is more to these practices than what you learn at the introductory level. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Cleansox
Added sentences.

[Cleansox]

12 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

RepetitiveDragon has not done Tai Chi, he moves his body slowly after watching videos and thinks it’s Tai Chi. He has no background in TCM or neidan and keeps posting nonsense everywhere that only proves he’s a deluded fool.

Being critisized in thread after thread, with the critique having the same theme, should tell a person something.