Xing and Ming cultivation

[markern]

11 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I'm sorry - I rather not. If someone is here from these backgrounds, I'd be happy to discuss - otherwise, I think it's a bit disrespectful.

Ok

[ReturnDragon]

17 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

As a different perspective - I don't think there's anything natural about Neidan...

 

I find it quite unnatural... It takes natural unfoldment and reverses that process.

 

Natural unfoldment is the normal developmental process leading to a peak and then a slow decline and decay... one's body progressively gets stiffer, tighter, weaker and loses vitality... one's mind does too... Then we die

 

This is the original Chinese Taoist definition of Neidan(内丹)
内丹是以阴阳变化丶天人合一思想为指导，
以人体为鼎炉，精气神为药物，
注重周天火候炼药，而在体内凝练结丹的修习

[dwai]

33 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The point is - that from the Daoist alchemical perspective - walking through this gate and discovering your True Self is a tremendous achievement - and considered the start of your spiritual journey. Whether that's misguided or not, I only have my experience of my teachers - who consider it a start. And the experience of teachers that consider it the end.

 

 

Dwai - despite how it may appear I personally really like you. I can see that you're speaking your truth and I respect that.

And I like you too. Please don't for once think that it is personal for me my friend  

33 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I respect it enough not to talk in objective global truths but always refer to alchemical Daoism and its perspective - because you've got your understanding and your perspective, and it's obviously of great value to you - and you're not willing to question it. From what I can see, Walker is doing the same - clearly talking about perspectives - not 'truth'.

 

Similarly, you might want to disagree in a more respectful way - stating things not as objective truth - but as your understanding based on whatever your experience is - you might even talk about that experience. This way maybe you'll feel less derided - no one can disagree with your experience.

 There is no objective truth when it comes to this topic. It is our predilection for 'objectivity' that makes us think that there might be.

Here's a beautiful book I'm re-reading...might be fun to read for others too.

Spoiler

https://selfdefinition.org/tibetan/Tenzin-Wangyal-Rinpoche-The-Tibetan-Yogas-Of-Dream-And-Sleep.pdf

 

33 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The reactive "no you poor thing - you're still caught up in an obsession with form" type stuff just to make your point is pretty derogatory...

I don't mean it that way. I'm not here to convert anyone to any particular conceptual framework. I thought you guys wanted to discuss  

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

And I like you too. Please don't for once think that it is personal for me my friend

 

🙏

 

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

I don't mean it that way. I'm not here to convert anyone to any particular conceptual framework. I thought you guys wanted to discuss  

 

I personally think that "from my experience xxxx is the case" or "as my teacher explained - that xxxx" goes a long way to spark curiosity rather than defensiveness. And being precise with what "my experience" means also helps.

 

It leaves room for wonder - even if you don't agree.

 

"It is so" only leaves room for agreement or disagreement - and reactionary conversations tend to be stale and boring!

[dwai]

 

Quote

It leaves room for wonder - even if you don't agree.

 

"It is so" only leaves room for agreement or disagreement - and reactionary conversations tend to be stale and boring!

Good point.  

I thought it is understood that everything we share here is subjective, and based on our own experiences. I (usually) don't like to quote from scriptures and texts, and rarely like to read if others do it-- primarily because if someone has walked the walk, they can express their journey and what they saw, what they think etc in their own words. Except when we can find someone who expresses a shared path much better (then we can share videos, quotes, etc). 

Edited February 21, 2020 by dwai

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, dwai said:

I (usually) don't like to quote from scriptures and texts, and rarely like to read if others to do it

 

I agree. Neither do I.

 

I think stories, experiences and examples help. You've shared some great ones in the past, and they've always helped to set the context for what you say - and where your perspective is coming from.

 

For example, I think it's interesting that you shared that your teacher uses the DDJ as a framework for teaching. To me that gives a really clear indication of where you're coming from.

 

It's what I try to do too - (although not always - obviously)

 

I just think it helps create openness in discussion - rather than reactive back and forth.

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

As a different perspective - I don't think there's anything natural about Neidan...

 

I find it quite unnatural... It takes natural unfoldment and reverses that process.

 

Natural unfoldment is the normal developmental process leading to a peak and then a slow decline and decay... one's body progressively gets stiffer, tighter, weaker and loses vitality... one's mind does too... Then we die

 

It is unnatural to the mind and to the normal developmental process, but perfectly natural from the developing subtle body’s perspective. 

 

 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

This is the original Chinese Taoist definition of Neidan(内丹)
内丹是以阴阳变化丶天人合一思想为指导，
以人体为鼎炉，精气神为药物，
注重周天火候炼药，而在体内凝练结丹的修习

Translation please 🙃

[mla7]

I think this is an important discussion and I wanted to take a stab at summarizing my understanding of the arguments here.  Please correct me if you feel I am missing something:

 

Freeform (and Walker, kinda):  Cultivating xing without cultivating ming (as done by the majority of buddhists for example) is problematic.  It can yield "awakenings" which in themselves are at best preludes to real spiritual achievement and at worse can cause people to become delusional spiritual monsters.  A better way to go is to cultivate xing and ming.  When the ming is transformed real physical changes occur.  For instance, people who have properly cultivated the ming can turn their physical bodies into a body made of light and go live on higher planes if they wish.  This is a valid goal of spiritual cultivation and physical transformations such as the one just described are proof that "real" spiritual stuff has occurred unlike the "awakenings" claimed by xing-only people which might just be a fanciful notion.

 

Dwai:  Achieving awakening is the point of spiritual practice.  What is the point of flying around the universe in a body made of light if your mind is still mired in dualism?  Practices that liberate the mind from the delusion of self are the best way to go and abiding in a deep state of permanent non-duality is the best and most valid result of successful spiritual practice.  Although this may not result in flesh and blood transformation of the physical body who cares?  The important thing is that the illusion of self is dissolved and the knot of karma binding us to our suffering is untied forever.  Although the physical body may continue up till death in a normal way, it doesn't really matter because the mind has been liberated from it's attachment to the body and everything else too.

 

Sorry if I was a bit blunt or maybe using different terminology than you would, but do you think this is a fair accounting of this conversation? 

 

I feel like this is one of those arguments that never really goes away haha.

[Geof Nanto]

29 minutes ago, Bindi said:

It is unnatural to the mind and to the normal developmental process, but perfectly natural from the developing subtle body’s perspective. 

 

 

 

Thanks for noting this Bindi. I'd go further and say it's a completely natural process if a person's conditioned consciousness doesn't interfere.  All neidan practice does, if done correctly, is to try to speed up the process. That's why there's so much intricate instruction and so much danger of error. It's not a path I follow. It suits some people's temperament but not others. I prefer to allow the process to unfold in its own time under the infinitely wise guidance of Nature. Sure it's slow, but it's thorough. And all things being equal life is long. 

[ReturnDragon]

7 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

This is the original Chinese Taoist definition of Neidan(内丹)
内丹是以阴阳变化丶天人合一思想为指导，
以人体为鼎炉，精气神为药物，
注重周天火候炼药，而在体内凝练结丹的修习

 

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

Translation please 🙃

I don't think anyone is still care about this anymore! Besides, this is not the right thread to discuss it.

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, mla7 said:

I think this is an important discussion and I wanted to take a stab at summarizing my understanding of the arguments here.  Please correct me if you feel I am missing something:

 

Freeform (and Walker, kinda):  Cultivating xing without cultivating ming (as done by the majority of buddhists for example) is problematic.  It can yield "awakenings" which in themselves are at best preludes to real spiritual achievement and at worse can cause people to become delusional spiritual monsters.  A better way to go is to cultivate xing and ming.  When the ming is transformed real physical changes occur.  For instance, people who have properly cultivated the ming can turn their physical bodies into a body made of light and go live on higher planes if they wish.  This is a valid goal of spiritual cultivation and physical transformations such as the one just described are proof that "real" spiritual stuff has occurred unlike the "awakenings" claimed by xing-only people which might just be a fanciful notion.

I won't comment on this any further. imho, most people need to work on ming before xing. 

29 minutes ago, mla7 said:

Dwai:  Achieving awakening is the point of spiritual practice.  What is the point of flying around the universe in a body made of light if your mind is still mired in dualism?  Practices that liberate the mind from the delusion of self are the best way to go and abiding in a deep state of permanent non-duality is the best and most valid result of successful spiritual practice.  Although this may not result in flesh and blood transformation of the physical body who cares? 

Yes that's what I too say. What is the point?

29 minutes ago, mla7 said:

The important thing is that the illusion of self is dissolved and the knot of karma binding us to our suffering is untied forever.  Although the physical body may continue up till death in a normal way, it doesn't really matter because the mind has been liberated from it's attachment to the body and everything else too.

 What (primarily) the Buddhists call "no self" is what I call the Self. Why? That's a long story...but in the Hindu nondualist traditions, Self is not what people ordinarily think they are (mind-body-personality).  So in this discussion, I've been assiduously avoiding using either the terms "Self" or "no Self", but rather sticking to "True Nature".

 

Read this to find out what I mean -- https://www.medhajournal.com/most-people-misunderstand-what-atman-means/

 

 

[Bindi]

1 minute ago, Yueya said:

 

Thanks for noting this Bindi. I'd go further and say it's a completely natural process if a person's conditioned consciousness doesn't interfere.  All neidan practice does, if done correctly, is to try to speed up the process. That's why there's so much intricate instruction and so much danger of error. It's not a path I follow. It suits some people's temperament but not others. I prefer to allow the process to unfold in its own time under the infinitely wise guidance of Nature. Sure it's slow, but it's thorough. And all things being equal life is long. 

Agreed pulling apart conditioned consciousness is primary, and there are likely a few ways this can be done. 
 

I had a dream in my early 20’s in which there was a large wooden pergola structure and a thick vine growing on it. In my dream I first undid the tendrils wrapped around the wooden beams, then the branches, and then I came to the trunk of the vine which had grown around the middle post of the structure, so that it was almost impossible to distinguish what was wooden post and what was vine. I started to prise them apart, and at a certain point I managed it, and the whole vine and structure started to topple to one side which worried me so I pushed it back up, it started to topple a second time and I worked against it and pushed it back up again, and then it started to topple a third time, and this time I turned my back on it and walked in the other direction. When I looked back, I saw that the whole heavy old structure and vine had disappeared, and in its place there was a new fresh young vine, free to grow. 
 

This is my dream version of pulling apart conditioning, which influenced my entire life path. As I see it now the vine is my mind, and the structure is my conditioning. In my dream, my heavy old lumbering mind woven around conditioning gives way finally, after a lot of work undoing it, to a new fresh perspective, this time in accord with my inner reality. 
 

 

[ReturnDragon]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

I won't comment on this any further. imho, most people need to work on ming before xing. 

If the definitions are incorrect to begin with, then, all the communication in the discussion process will be out of place and become invalid.

[Geof Nanto]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

Agreed pulling apart conditioned consciousness is primary, and there are likely a few ways this can be done. 
 

I had a dream in my early 20’s in which there was a large wooden pergola structure and a thick vine growing on it. In my dream I first undid the tendrils wrapped around the wooden beams, then the branches, and then I came to the trunk of the vine which had grown around the middle post of the structure, so that it was almost impossible to distinguish what was wooden post and what was vine. I started to prise them apart, and at a certain point I managed it, and the whole vine and structure started to topple to one side which worried me so I pushed it back up, it started to topple a second time and I worked against it and pushed it back up again, and then it started to topple a third time, and this time I turned my back on it and walked in the other direction. When I looked back, I saw that the whole heavy old structure and vine had disappeared, and in its place there was a new fresh young vine, free to grow. 
 

This is my dream version of pulling apart conditioning, which influenced my entire life path. As I see it now the vine is my mind, and the structure is my conditioning. In my dream, my heavy old lumbering mind woven around conditioning gives way finally, after a lot of work undoing it, to a new fresh perspective, this time in accord with my inner reality. 
 

 

 

Thanks Bindi. You’re fortunate to have such strong dream guidance. I’ve had nothing like that, although, along with a number of teachers, Cleary’s Taoist I Ching has proved an excellent guide for me. And I’ve needed heaps of guidance. I’d have to say that I have no natural talent for life. My path of shedding unhelpful conditioned consciousness has been hard won through dealing with my general uncomfortableness with embodied life. Hence I’ve made and needed to work through countless errors.  Some huge, such as a period of intense heroin addiction when I was younger. And in retrospect, such ‘errors’ have provided me with my greatest learning experiences.  The stark choice, change or die. 

 

For me, Ming and Xing cultivation just means working with methods that better align both my body and mind with Dao. Although these are intricately intertwined and therefore not two, there’s clearly cultivation methods focused on each. For me, as someone who’d learnt through many years of education to overvalue thinking, qi gong type body focused practices were the most beneficial in my early years. But related theory has always helped me enormously, my understanding of it deepening with qi gong practice, my praxis deepening with my understanding.   Now I’m comfortable using the whole of life as my alchemical cauldron.  I’d say Spirit, the mind of Dao, tries to continually speak to us all through events in our lives, through feelings, but we can only adsorb it to the degree that we can let go of ego and surrender to its great wisdom. 

 

However, when I was younger my life was so out of harmony with Dao, everything was meaningless (or, at least, only superficially meaningful in culturally constructed ways.) I was free to do whatever I wanted, no spiritual guidance held me to a path. Now that’s not the case. My path becomes clearer as I get older and manage to improve my alignment with Dao. Clearer and hence narrower in the sense that I feel uncomfortable when I stray. Which, having written this, reminds me of how I noted the instructions for Neidan are intricate. So too I could say are instructions from Nature. Yet the more I’m able to stop interfering, the more they’re able to change me ‘self so’, spontaneously, effortlessly. So that intricacy becomes simplicity, just like the unfolding of nature. 

[ReturnDragon]

8 hours ago, Yueya said:

For me, Ming and Xing cultivation just means working with methods that better align both my body and mind with Dao

I don't know how you came up with this idea but others can't? You are right on the money. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Bindi]

But not just aligning body and mind with Dao, also aligning the subtle energy body. For me this is where alchemy takes place.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Bindi

[ReturnDragon]

12 minutes ago, Bindi said:

.....aligning the subtle energy body. IMO this is where alchemy takes place.

Your subtle energy body is the result from the cultivation of ming. The cultivation of ming is to make alchemy takes place in the body.
 

Edited February 22, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[freeform]

13 hours ago, mla7 said:

The important thing is that the illusion of self is dissolved and the knot of karma binding us to our suffering is untied forever.

 

I think in general you've covered the two perspectives well...

 

I think it's important to add that the idea isn't to become an energetic immortal being living on spiritual plains. The idea is to achieve the above. It's just the alchemical Daoist perspective is that you don't discard physicality, karma and all the layers between that and your original spirit. Because physicality and all the other layers are a physical/energetic/karmic manifestation of your Original Spirit. You might feel like you've discarded them - but you're wrong - because they are you and will always be tied to you until they're fully transformed.

 

All these layers - in fact, everything in existence is a manifestation of your 'True Nature' (as per Dwai) - it's not that you have this True Spiritual Nature and this fake shell that you discard. So awakening to your spiritual nature is considered the start - and the path from then on is the full transformation of every 'layer of being' back into your spiritual nature.

 

This idea that 'as above so below' is very deeply intertwined. Physicality is the 'below' - and all changes in the 'above' must reflect in the 'below' otherwise it's not considered a full transformation.

 

In Daoist alchemical and esoteric Buddhist perspective - an awakening to your True Nature results in a part of you being freed from the illusory, localised self... From this vantage point, you experience your original self - you experience it as a shedding of all structures, of all notions... you experience true stillness and a pure undercurrent of a deep connection with and as everything. It finally feels like you've arrived - because there is nowhere to go, nothing to do - and not even a doer to do it - because everything is as it is.

 

But the Daoist approach says - great you've experienced your true nature, it's like you've pierced the veil and stuck your head in and found out what it's like on the other side. But it's an experience. Even if it becomes a prolonged or a constant experience. Much of the other parts of you are still tied to your earthly/karmic existence - and so they must go through the process of transformation - whether in this lifetime or the next.

 

It is considered that if upon death, one can fully enter this state of True Nature, then one would die a good death, they'd leave behind what's known as a non-rotting body - and they'd be sure to have a fortunate rebirth to carry on with their cultivation. This is an amazing achievement. But it's not considered the final liberation - not even close (from the alchemical Daoist/esoteric Buddhist perspective)

 

The Xing only perspective (as far as I understand) argues that the body is an illusion, the self is an illusion - and the Daoist alchemical path is mistakenly obsessed with the body and the self. They see these things as illusory aspects to be cast aside like how a caterpillar casts away its cocoon casing when it leaves it as a butterfly.

 

It seems completely confounding to them that on having this experience of your Original Self - where nothing is to be done, the Daoists would then try to 'do stuff' or achieve some aim or another. It seems laughable. The only sense one can make is that they must be scrambling to keep some form of their identity intact... that they're scared to let go completely into their true nature - so they're trying to take some illusory aspect of themselves back with them.

 

The Daoist alchemical reply to that is - no you're blinded by the bliss of experiencing your Original Self. What you think you've achieved you actually haven't... not completely. You've realized your True Nature - now you have to transform all that isn't in complete alignment with it into complete alignment with it...

 

In Daoist thought, the Dao De Jing is considered the crowning jewel of Xing.

 

The alchemical methods came later. They saw that the achievement attained through the process outlined in the DDJ isn't complete (on a grand, cosmic scale). It results in the attainment known as Sheng Ren (Sage)... The ultimate attainment of the human form. In alchemical Daoism, this became the culmination of The Middle Vehicle... much of the Ming-based practices (including a large part of the early alchemical processes) are considered The Lower Vehicle... Once both have been achieved one moves onto the Xing-Ming practices - The Higher Vehicle.

 

Higher Vehicle practices I'm not very familiar with - but they're mainly done in prolonged states of complete stillness... prolonged as in days, months even years spent in constant, uninterrupted meditative absorption.

[KuroShiro]

On 2/21/2020 at 12:01 PM, freeform said:

Dwai regularly mentions that all paths lead to the same thing.

 

I'm not so sure...

 

Maybe they did at some point?

 

As highlighted in this discussion - there are clearly some major differences.

 

I believe there are at least some convergances. Certainly with the Burmese Buddhist teacher I train with, they have a very similar process to the Daoist approach. For example 'emptiness' is considered a trap - and one must move past it. There is even a big Qi-building component (although quite different in nature to the Daoist approach). They have records of past masters disintegrating into bright light at death etc. But then his line is an old Esoteric/Tantric line.

 

This seems to be a contradiction?

 

Also may I ask you why are you mixing both traditions, if they both have complete teachings?

 

 

On 2/21/2020 at 12:01 PM, freeform said:

They have records of past masters disintegrating into bright light at death etc. But then his line is an old Esoteric/Tantric line.

 

Anyone in the last century?

[dwai]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I think in general you've covered the two perspectives well...

 

I think it's important to add that the idea isn't to become an energetic immortal being living on spiritual plains. The idea is to achieve the above. It's just the alchemical Daoist perspective is that you don't discard physicality, karma and all the layers between that and your original spirit. Because physicality and all the other layers are a physical/energetic/karmic manifestation of your Original Spirit. You might feel like you've discarded them - but you're wrong - because they are you and will always be tied to you until they're fully transformed.

 

I often find that assumptions are made about paths different than ours. A good way to have a meaningful discourse is to first articulate the “other’s” perspective and have them agree that our understanding is correct. 
 

for example, what you wrote is not a proper understanding of that perspective. Nothing gets discarded.  Nothing needs to be transformed  
 

Okay, Let try another example this time. Let’s take Gold and ornaments you make with gold. Caveat emptor — this is an example, so take it as it’s meant to be, and don’t extrapolate the roles of the gold miner, jeweller etc. 

 

we have ornaments made of gold. Necklace, bracelet and. Finger ring. Each of these are modifications of gold. Can we ever find any of these to exist apart from the gold that they’re made of? 
 

The different types of ornaments made of gold - necklace, bracelet and ring, they are what we can call name-forms with different uses. 
 

Let's now assume that the ornaments have been covered by a layer of dirt. So we clean them up until the dirt is gone and the gold that they’re made up of, shines forth. Then it is simply a case of recognizing the ‘goldness’ of the ornaments. 

So long as these name-forms exist, and we know that they are nothing but gold, there’s no need to melt them back to becoming gold. They never were not gold. 

 

Similarly with True Nature. All the manifestation in the universe, with all the sentient beings — so long as there is no realization that it is all True Nature, there is a problem. 
 

We search for that elusive true nature outside (God, spirits, etc etc). Then someone tells us that you have to look ‘within’. Maybe gives us a meditation or alchemical practice — so we refine, clean, etc etc. (Ming) until one day we realize that we’ve always been that which we look for. There is nothing about us that has ever been apart from this True Nature. 
 

Then what was the “dirt” that was covering the gold in those ornaments one might ask.
 

The answer in our case (is True Nature) is that there seemed to be a veiling, an Obscuration  that hides True nature from our minds. But once the direct recognition of our True Nature occurs, there is no longer the veiling. Then it becomes apparent that we were always aware of this True Nature. 
 

In Hindu tradition, this veiling is called ‘maya’. It is considered to be like a mirage, which both seems to exist and not exist, neither exist, nor not exist, exists, does not exist at the same time. Just like a mirage is only an optical illusion, that disappears when investigated closely, similarly this obscuration disappears when we observe closely  with clarity and focus of the mind, unclouded by objects (xing). 

Full Awakening/Recognition cannot occur without Xing (consciousness) work. 
 

Ming work might give us glimpses — While we clean the gold ornaments, the glints of gold peek through the dirt as it falls away. That is a lot of work most people seem to need to do.

 

But working with consciousness is not simple at all (until it becomes). It is a different kind of work, apparent to no one other than the practitioner themselves. 

 

 

Quote

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by dwai

[senseless virtue]

I tried cultivating Xing and Ming,

but my head just went Ding and Dong.

Edited February 22, 2020 by virtue

[Geof Nanto]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

But not just aligning body and mind with Dao, also aligning the subtle energy body. For me this is where alchemy takes place.

 

 

By saying body and mind I meant it as an expression that includes all subtle formations. But really, none of his stuff can be adequately expressed in language, though some people do it better than others. And well written posts are always a pleasure to read. I consider myself only a mediocre verbal communicator. 

 

I come here and participate as part of my practice. I like to read what others write on topics that interest me. And when I write something I like to read the replies. For me, it’s not so much what what’s written that counts, though knowledge and expression are certainly important. What concerns me the most are the feelings I get.  Deeper than just the words and the reactions of people here, my participation regularly proves a valuable way for Spirit to reveal insights into hidden aspects of my psyche. Shows me how my attitude is in harmony or disharmony with Dao. And this usually bears scant relation to the knowledge being discussed.
 

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, Yueya said:

 

By saying body and mind I meant it as an expression that includes all subtle formations. But really, none of his stuff can be adequately expressed in language, though some people do it better than others. And well written posts are always a pleasure to read. I consider myself only a mediocre verbal communicator. 

 

I come here and participate as part of my practice. I like to read what others write on topics that interest me. And when I write something I like to read the replies. For me, it’s not so much what what’s written that counts, though knowledge and expression are certainly important. What concerns me the most are the feelings I get.  Deeper than just the words and the reactions of people here, my participation regularly proves a valuable way for Spirit to reveal insights into hidden aspects of my psyche. Shows me how my attitude is in harmony or disharmony with Dao. And this usually bears scant relation to the knowledge being discussed.
 

Yueya, I appreciated your whole post 

and only reacted to what I felt was a minimisation that return dragon highlighted when he picked out just this line “methods that better align both my body and mind with Dao” as the entirety of Xing and Ming practice. 
 

I understand your intent was unlikely to be trying to minimise, but I believe return dragons intent was to minimise the nature of Xing practice to something limited to body and mind level. 
 

 

 

 

[ReturnDragon]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

....and only reacted to what I felt was a minimisation that return dragon highlighted when he picked out just this line “methods that better align both my body and mind with Dao” as the entirety of Xing and Ming practice. 
 

I understand your intent was unlikely to be trying to minimise, but I believe return dragons intent was to minimise the nature of Xing practice to something limited to body and mind level. 

 

two methods....
The nature of Xing is to limited to mind;
The nature of Ming is limited to body.

Quote from an ancient Taoist grand master: 王重陽(Huang Zhong Yang):
"Xing and Ming must be cultivated at the same time and they cannot be separated."

Ref: http://zh.daoinfo.org/w/index.php?title=性命雙修&variant=zh-tw

Edited February 23, 2020 by ReturnDragon