Xing and Ming cultivation

[ilumairen]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

How about happiness?  I get that spiritual practice is hard, that it requires facing our shadow selves (never pleasant), that there´s such a thing as the "dark night of the soul."  But I´ve always thought that all these difficulties are in service of long-term happiness down the line.  True?

 

Instead of a dependent upon circumstances happiness, it is said a natural joy of being arises.

 

For me this joy seems to be a "default setting," and my personal disposition seems to be towards what is generally perceived as happiness. I'd like to believe this to be something which would be true for everyone on a spiritual path, but am in no position to state so with any certainty - hence my use of "it is said" in my initial statement of this post. We both know individuals not prone to joy or happiness, although I'm not sure how in touch with their "deeper selves" they are..

[ilumairen]

2 minutes ago, neti neti said:

 

I've been summoned! 

 

I only add that by virtue of the sage's loving view of those drawn to him as himself, he assumes the required roles to meet the needs which arise!

 

I grew tired of roles, required or otherwise... 

[liminal_luke]

2 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

Instead of a dependent upon circumstances happiness, it is said a natural joy of being arises.

.

 

This is what I´ve always thought.  I haven´t gotten deeply into Bon, but the TWR practices I have done have proved especially potent in this regard.

[neti neti]

30 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

 

I grew tired of roles, required or otherwise... 

Then indeed, you have assumed the role most needed!

[dwai]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

How about happiness?  I get that spiritual practice is hard, that it requires facing our shadow selves (never pleasant), that there´s such a thing as the "dark night of the soul."  But I´ve always thought that all these difficulties are in service of long-term happiness down the line.  True?

How do we define "happiness"? Chuang Tzu is reputed to have said "Happiness is the cessation of seeking ( happiness)". Really I think happiness an intrinsic aspect of our True Nature. Is it a state of constant joy (like laughing, smiling and dancing around all the time)?

 

I think it is more a state of fulfillment. Whatever comes, cannot add to the sense of fulfillment. Nothing taken away can reduce that sense of fulfillment. Nothing is needed. Nothing is missed. 

[Pilgrim]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

Consider someone like Lahiri Mahashaya of the Kriya Yoga lineage ( @Pilgrim can share some of his thoughts on this too) -- who went back to his life of a householder -- living as a fully enlightened sage in his own home. While someone else can be like Nisargadatta Maharaj -- who was a fully enlightened sage, and he lived in the most humble conditions, running his little street corner store selling beedis and other useless/mundane things ( @neti neti can share some thoughts on this if he feels like it). And his little flat in Mumbai would be filled with seekers from all over the world, morning through night every day -- and he would sit and talk.  Or it could be like the countless nameless sages who live in the holy mountains of the world, in little caves in complete anonymity.  Or it could be like Swami Vivekananda or Yogananda who spread their light to foreign shores out of compassion and love.

 

Hi @dwai

 

When it comes to people like Lahiri Mahasaya their degree of spiritual attainment was so advanced as to be incomprehensible to all but the rarest of beings like themselves.

 

Lahiri Mahasaya met a sadhu wandering in the mountains where he was stationed working for the railroad. When he met this fellow he did not know him.

 

The fellow then restored his memory to him. When his memory was restored that is the memories of his former incarnation he realized this fellow had been his Guru in a past life.

 

He spent some time with him and took up his practices from the past until he was told he had to go back to his wife and live as an ordinary person. 

 

He did not want to, he wanted nothing to do with that shabby old householder life of the mundane with all it's distractions and responsibilities and only wanted to be near his beloved guru and practice sadhana.  His Guru would hear nothing of it and insisted he return home and live the householder life as this would be good for him.

 

Knowing of the householders plight always being busy at work taking care of a home with little to no free time he petitioned his Guru who he called Babaji ( Great Father ) to allow him then to do something to help the householders out as they had no hope of anything but plodding slow spiritual advancement.

 

At first his guru said no but relented because he could tell how sincere Lahiri was. Then he set strict restrictions on who could be trained. Lahiri replied oh guruji if you place these restrictions then none will be qualified to learn or want to even. so he relaxed his restrictions with one caveat and that was that whomever he would teach were his burden and not Babaji's they were his to look after lifetime after lifetime until they achieved liberation. It was also his burden to take the 108 practices of Babaji's lineage and formulate them for householder use.

 

This my reader is why even a flawed person like me has a sadhana he can practice. 

 

No one knows what those 108 practices were called or if they even had a name. Lahiri Baba made the groupings of the practices into different levels of Kriya based upon the students capability to practice them.

 

When people hear the term first Kriya they think oh okay there is just one practice that is Kriya but the truth is there are a grouping of 4 main practices with a couple of auxiliary practices that comprise first Kriya and one who is initiated into the higher Kriyas and taught them in person as I have been never ceases to practice first Kriya, first Kriya the grouping of practices is always practiced with additional techniques added on as the student is able to practice them.

 

Note: to learn 2nd Kriya without the changes first Kriya must bring is fruitless you will not be able to practice it correctly. For example If I tell you place this mantra at this chakra in this sequence you will think oh that is nothing who can not mentally repeat OM?

 

Now what if I tell you you must place your focus upon that chakra then you must enliven it with life force by both doing and not doing and then you must feel the vibration as the life force strikes the gong and then you must hear the vibration and that vibration is the mantra and it must pervade your very being and you must dissolve in it and feel the bliss and seek that bliss's root that vibrations root that sounds root the light that comes from it's root until it all extinguishes itself in stillness and spaciousness at its source before moving on to the next chakra and doing the same? on top of that you must take the purified essence and washing life force and guide it to the next chakra with loving attention. What if I then tell you this life force is intelligent and has a female personality to her and you may not be rough with her but love her and appreciate how she is helping you and work in concert with her with respect admiration love and a feeling of sanctity? She is Shakti be humbled. _/|\_

 

What then do you have?

 

When you can do all of this then 1st Kriya has accomplished it's work and you are eligible to practice second Kriya.

 

This is true mantra until then you are chanting OM and so many mantras trying to imbue a vibration frequency of thought by external means and this is good as by this it can become as I have described are at the shallow level of practice.

 

In Kriya however until you have developed sufficiently to do as I have told higher Kriyas which are even more refined simply will not work.

 

The work of first Kriya is to get the person to the stage of greater perception so they can feel, hear and see the deeper inner realities so they can work with them in more than the shallow mechanical way of ok place your attention her inhale like this exhale like that etc.... and so on these are just the outer forms which ape the inner form like a crude pantomime.  

 

So many have argued over what is original Kriya and so many say only we teach original Kriya. I want to tell everyone one simple truth. They are different on the outside only when you actualize the inner practice do you see they are all the same,  your hand  has different bones than your foot no one can argue this different shape different appearance different way of functioning but the marrow of the bones is the same.

 

So Lahiri went home and he was much changed as his wife could tell.

 

Many think it is the body which must be brought to some exulted condition before one is a sage or advanced and nothing could be further from the truth. 

 

In this case all that was needed was remembering whom he had been in order to actualize who he is.

 

In time she came to realize what an exulted being he whom she thought just to be her husband truly was and took initiation from her husband and became his student.

 

Lahiri Baba worked allot and was also a tutor to the royalty and the wealthy. He raised a family and taught them Kriya as well and also held nightly satsang in his home with his students.

 

There are many stories of his life how he would practice Kriya all night long and in when he was not working would still go to the market the next day and do the grocery shopping for the family.

 

I often think about what he is doing right now and the answer that always comes back to me is that he is just a dimensional vibration away and he is with his Guru right where he always wanted to be and is active in the world even today and works with his students that he took on back then till this very day as was his pledge.

 

Even as advanced as he is which you must consider is incredibly advanced for his Guru to place such a charge upon him and for him to be able to carry it out, His Guru towers above him yet in achievement.

 

One such as myself am humble and bow before these titans and count my good fortune to have been blessed not only in past lives to have been taught but reawakened  in this life and been made to remember the portions of the former life so I was able to pick up where I left off.

 

Oh make no mistake I do not place myself anywhere near or close to these titans I am just a fortunate person who is frankly not all that deserving.

 

In this life I have had a hard life and I developed a difficult personality.

 

In the last 3 years I have gone through many challenges and changes within the last year the severity of this difficult personality is continuing to change and smooth out. A great deal of this has to do with the years of Kriya I practiced and growing into the changes.

 

We never know the result of the momentum we build until later. My changes were such that I became incompatible with my former life and wife.

 

A great big part of the change has also  been divorcing someone I was terribly unhappy with and did not even know the extent of it until taking up a life with my S.O. I am very happy with her and her being in my life has given me the spiritual companion of genuine sweetness, intellectual acuity, sense of humor wit and just plain wonderfulness I cherish most of all.  

 

It makes not being an asshole allot easier when you have someone you like, respect and love in your life, she is a real blessing, I only wish we could have met much earlier in life. 

 

All that being said I understand what Lahiri Baba did and why he could do it and be a part of the world and not just a blissed out stooge going through the motions.

 

Even thought he wanted nothing more than to be with his Guru, his Guru knew he had to go back to his life and experience it and not just go through the motions either.

 

Having a job, a home to pay for, taxes to pay on it and taking care of maintenance and repairs, cooking, cleaning etc.... and maintaining a loving relationship with your wife and taking care of pets and or children is quite time consuming but if you can do this with more joy than not and learn to work with frustrations that come and team up with your wife and help with her projects she is charge of instead of sitting on the couch while she works hard on her project then with the family life and duties being discharged this is the practice of Kriya you are a Kriyaban.

 

If all you do is practice Kriya you are not a Kriyaban. Kriya is about every day life and living it well and also about the spiritual blending the two as best as a busy flawed person can.

 

Lahiri Mahasaya was very strict about being a householder on many occasions he refused to teach monks and told them get rid of those robes, dress like a person get a job and take a wife raise a family then I will teach you.

 

His chief student was one such monk who became a householder and his branch of the lineage continues on till this very day.

 

Lahiri Mahsaya has my deepest respects and love for he gave people like me a way to live warts and all.

 

Edited February 28, 2020 by Pilgrim

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Pilgrim said:

 

Hi @dwai

 

When it comes to people like Lahiri Mahasaya their degree of spiritual attainment was so advanced as to be incomprehensible to all but the rarest of beings like themselves.

 

Lahiri Mahasaya met a sadhu wandering in the mountains where he was stationed working for the railroad. When he met this fellow he did not know him.

 

The fellow then restored his memory to him. When his memory was restored that is the memories of his former incarnation he realized this fellow had been his Guru in a past life.

 

He spent some time with him and took up his practices from the past until he was told he had to go back to his wife and live as an ordinary person. 

 

He did not want to, he wanted nothing to do with that shabby old householder life of the mundane with all it's distractions and responsibilities and only wanted to be near his beloved guru and practice sadhana.  His Guru would hear nothing of it and insisted he return home and live the householder life as this would be good for him.

 

Knowing of the householders plight always being busy at work taking care of a home with little to no free time he petitioned his Guru who he called Babaji ( Great Father ) to allow him then to do something to help the householders out as they had no hope of anything but plodding slow spiritual advancement.

 

At first his guru said no but relented because he could tell how sincere Lahiri was. Then he set strict restrictions on who could be trained. Lahiri replied oh guruji if you place these restrictions then none will be qualified to learn or want to even. so he relaxed his restrictions with one caveat and that was that whomever he would teach were his burden and not Babaji's they were his to look after lifetime after lifetime until they achieved liberation. It was also his burden to take the 108 practices of Babaji's lineage and formulate them for householder use.

 

This my reader is why even a flawed person like me has a sadhana he can practice. 

 

No one knows what those 108 practices were called or if they even had a name. Lahiri Baba made the groupings of the practices into different levels of Kriya based upon the students capability to practice them.

 

When people hear the term first Kriya they think oh okay there is just one practice that is Kriya but the truth is there are a grouping of 4 main practices with a couple of auxiliary practices that comprise first Kriya and one who is initiated into the higher Kriyas and taught them in person as I have been never ceases to practice first Kriya, first Kriya the grouping of practices is always practiced with additional techniques added on as the student is able to practice them.

 

Note: to learn 2nd Kriya without the changes first Kriya must bring is fruitless you will not be able to practice it correctly. For example If I tell you place this mantra at this chakra in this sequence you will think oh that is nothing who can not mentally repeat OM?

 

Now what if I tell you you must place your focus upon that chakra then you must enliven it with life force by both doing and not doing and then you must feel the vibration as the life force strikes the gong and then you must hear the vibration and that vibration is the mantra and it must pervade your very being and you must dissolve in it and feel the bliss and seek that bliss's root that vibrations root that sounds root the light that comes from it's root until it all extinguishes itself in stillness and spaciousness at its source before moving on to the next chakra and doing the same? on top of that you must take the purified essence and washing life force and guide it to the next chakra with loving attention. What if I then tell you this life force is intelligent and has a female personality to her and you may not be rough with her but love her and appreciate how she is helping you and work in concert with her with respect admiration love and a feeling of sanctity? She is Shakti be humbled. _/|\_

 

What then do you have?

 

When you can do all of this then 1st Kriya has accomplished it's work and you are eligible to practice second Kriya.

 

This is true mantra until then you are chanting OM and so many mantras trying to imbue a vibration frequency of thought by external means and this is good as by this it can become as I have described are at the shallow level of practice.

 

In Kriya however until you have developed sufficiently to do as I have told higher Kriyas which are even more refined simply will not work.

 

The work of first Kriya is to get the person to the stage of greater perception so they can feel, hear and see the deeper inner realities so they can work with them in more than the shallow mechanical way of ok place your attention her inhale like this exhale like that etc.... and so on these are just the outer forms which ape the inner form like a crude pantomime.  

 

So many have argued over what is original Kriya and so many say only we teach original Kriya. I want to tell everyone one simple truth. They are different on the outside only when you actualize the inner practice do you see they are all the same,  your hand  has different bones than your foot no one can argue this different shape different appearance different way of functioning but the marrow of the bones is the same.

 

So Lahiri went home and he was much changed as his wife could tell.

 

Many think it is the body which must be brought to some exulted condition before one is a sage or advanced and nothing could be further from the truth. 

 

In this case all that was needed was remembering whom he had been in order to actualize who he is.

 

In time she came to realize what an exulted being he whom she thought just to be her husband truly was and took initiation from her husband and became his student.

 

Lahiri Baba worked allot and was also a tutor to the royalty and the wealthy. He raised a family and taught them Kriya as well and also held nightly satsang in his home with his students.

 

There are many stories of his life how he would practice Kriya all night long and in when he was not working would still go to the market the next day and do the grocery shopping for the family.

 

I often think about what he is doing right now and the answer that always comes back to me is that he is just a dimensional vibration away and he is with his Guru right where he always wanted to be and is active in the world even today and works with his students that he took on back then till this very day as was his pledge.

 

Even as advanced as he is which you must consider is incredibly advanced for his Guru to place such a charge upon him and for him to be able to carry it out, His Guru towers above him yet in achievement.

 

One such as myself am humble and bow before these titans and count my good fortune to have been blessed not only in past lives to have been taught but reawakened  in this life and been made to remember the portions of the former life so I was able to pick up where I left off.

 

Oh make no mistake I do not place myself anywhere near or close to these titans I am just a fortunate person who is frankly not all that deserving.

 

In this life I have had a hard life and I developed a difficult personality.

 

In the last 3 years I have gone through many challenges and changes within the last year the severity of this difficult personality is continuing to change and smooth out. A great deal of this has to do with the years of Kriya I practiced and growing into the changes.

 

We never know the result of the momentum we build until later. My changes were such that I became incompatible with my former life and wife.

 

A great big part of the change has also  been divorcing someone I was terribly unhappy with and did not even know the extent of it until taking up a life with my S.O. I am very happy with her and her being in my life has given me the spiritual companion of genuine sweetness, intellectual acuity, sense of humor wit and just plain wonderfulness I cherish most of all.  

 

It makes not being an asshole allot easier when you have someone you like, respect and love in your life, she is a real blessing, I only wish we could have met much earlier in life. 

 

All that being said I understand what Lahiri Baba did and why he could do it and be a part of the world and not just a blissed out stooge going through the motions.

 

Even thought he wanted nothing more than to be with his Guru, his Guru knew he had to go back to his life and experience it and not just go through the motions either.

 

Having a job, a home to pay for, taxes to pay on it and taking care of maintenance and repairs, cooking, cleaning etc.... and maintaining a loving relationship with your wife and taking care of pets and or children is quite time consuming but if you can do this with more joy than not and learn to work with frustrations that come and team up with your wife and help with her projects she is charge of instead of sitting on the couch while she works hard on her project then with the family life and duties being discharged this is the practice of Kriya you are a Kriyaban.

 

If all you do is practice Kriya you are not a Kriyaban. Kriya is about every day life and living it well and also about the spiritual blending the two as best as a busy flawed person can.

 

Lahiri Mahasaya was very strict about being a householder on many occasions he refused to teach monks and told them get rid of those robes, dress like a person get a job and take a wife raise a family then I will teach you.

 

His chief student was one such monk who became a householder and his branch of the lineage continues on till this very day.

 

Lahiri Mahsaya has my deepest respects and love for he gave people like me a way to live warts and all.

 

😍 thank you my dear friend for sharing such a wonderful and inspirational account. 🙏🏾
 

Swami Vivekananda used to say (Paraphrasing), “the one who hides in the forest and mountains in solitude, has missed the way. The one who immerses himself in samsara and its pains and pleasures too has missed the way. A true Jñāni is one who continues on in the thick of it in samsara, fully having realized his immortal nature and helps all he can with selfless service.”  

[GSmaster]

Thing is we are living in the matrix.

 

All sensations, ideas, thoughts, perceptions whatever you are or what you think you are is just a code.

This code carries Qi.

 

Those who cultivate Qi are able to change this code however they like. Hence the internal transformation or alchemy.

 

For someone with high level of enlightenment gaining 1 billion dollar is as easy as to flick the finger. With even higher level you could materialize yourself a new physical vessel and move consciousness / spirit into it.

 

If you cant do it yet, if you have to work to earn money and survive, there is a long way to grow. This is also the reason why enlightenment can be quantified by Raw Power a person has in his Soul and it can go vice versa. I.e. raising power or training can give you higher enlightenment or transform on a deeper levels.

 

If you believe that happiness, or oneness is the end goal you are stuck in the pre-foundational stage of spiritual development.

 

It sounds like some people found ways to gain pleasure / positive sensations and believe in the end this is the final goal, oh "I am happy" "I am fullfilled". I would be sceptical of all traditions whos end goal is attaining nirvana, or freedom from suffering. Like yeah, if you got there, you are just at the start point.

 

At some point of practice I have hacked the nervous system of a physical body, making it possible to overload the sensory channels by euphoria. The pleasure was millions times higher than anything normal humans may ever experience in life. But it was in the end just stagnation of development and did not lead to the higher levels of evolution on itself.

[johndoe2012]

9 hours ago, GSmaster said:

Thing is we are living in the matrix.

 

All sensations, ideas, thoughts, perceptions whatever you are or what you think you are is just a code.

This code carries Qi.

 

Those who cultivate Qi are able to change this code however they like. Hence the internal transformation or alchemy.

 

For someone with high level of enlightenment gaining 1 billion dollar is as easy as to flick the finger. With even higher level you could materialize yourself a new physical vessel and move consciousness / spirit into it.

 

If you cant do it yet, if you have to work to earn money and survive, there is a long way to grow. This is also the reason why enlightenment can be quantified by Raw Power a person has in his Soul and it can go vice versa. I.e. raising power or training can give you higher enlightenment or transform on a deeper levels.

 

If you believe that happiness, or oneness is the end goal you are stuck in the pre-foundational stage of spiritual development.

 

It sounds like some people found ways to gain pleasure / positive sensations and believe in the end this is the final goal, oh "I am happy" "I am fullfilled". I would be sceptical of all traditions whos end goal is attaining nirvana, or freedom from suffering. Like yeah, if you got there, you are just at the start point.

 

At some point of practice I have hacked the nervous system of a physical body, making it possible to overload the sensory channels by euphoria. The pleasure was millions times higher than anything normal humans may ever experience in life. But it was in the end just stagnation of development and did not lead to the higher levels of evolution on itself.

 

Sounds new agey and like wishful thinking.

 

An enlighted person cannot gain a million dollar instantly, an enlighted person is just a person with the thinking mind destroyed and they no longer believe in free will as normal people do.

[senseless virtue]

Sometimes I wonder about this forum if it's actually a carnival shooting duel where who fires the most absolutist facts in the most forceful possible manner wins.

 

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

An enlighted person cannot gain a million dollar instantly

 

Quote

an enlighted person is just a person with the thinking mind destroyed

 

Quote

and they no longer believe in free will as normal people do.

 

Have you had the direct insight into the metaphysics of karma in action whether any of these hold true? Or are you rather offering diluted arm chair philosophy and fanciful speculation?

 

For what it's worth, I disagree with all your claims.

 

1. An enlightened person with the proper merit in store can gain a million dollars if he wishes so.
2. Enlightenment doesn't destroy the thinking mind because the mind itself always was an illusion that comes and goes; enlightenment is stopping identification with it.
3. Depends a lot what you call normal! Free will is a metaphysical fact and the basis for the adage that God helps those who help themselves. The Buddha taught that small and big karmic currents propel us in uncontrollable and unpleasant manner until we exercise our free will and wisdom to see through the mind. Our good and bad actions also accumulate merits for gain and loss, but good merit usually isn't sufficient to break our self-identification patterns.

Edited March 19, 2020 by virtue

[EmeraldHead]

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

is just a person with the thinking mind destroyed and they no longer believe in free will as normal people do.

they don't have destroy / subdue it. that is one option. enlightenment is simply becoming aware and functional and continually growing beyond the mind that you have inside this universe. it's simple. there are many options afterwards.

1 hour ago, johndoe2012 said:

An enlighted person cannot gain a million dollar instantly,

they are the perfect people who have the means to cultivate siddhis like instant materialisation into the matrix.

[dwai]

19 minutes ago, virtue said:

Sometimes I wonder about this forum if it's actually a carnival shooting duel where who fires the most absolutist facts in the most forceful possible manner wins.

pew pew pew!!  

I think we sometimes forget that this forum is there for exchange of ideas and churning that helps us better understand/realize concepts. All part of the game imho.

19 minutes ago, virtue said:

 

Have you had the direct insight into the metaphysics of karma in action whether any of these hold true? Or are you rather offering diluted arm chair philosophy and fanciful speculation?

 

For what it's worth, I disagree with all your claims.

 

1. An enlightened person with the proper merit in store can gain a million dollars if he wishes so.

S/he can -- but would they want to? Also even if they do so, it won't be with a snap of a finger. We've all seen spiritual leaders gaining huge followings and their missions acquire lot of wealth. It usually takes the course of time...

 

An enlightened being has risen about the pettiness of the limited self-identification(s). So s/he will not "WANT" something like a million dollars. Typically they are quite happy in whatever condition the circumstances have resulted in. A ruler will be happy to remain a ruler -- will be a great ruler in fact, because s/he will have true compassion for everyone. But s/he will not meddle with the karma of others unless there's a compelling reason to do so.

19 minutes ago, virtue said:

1. Enlightenment doesn't destroy the thinking mind because the mind itself always was an illusion that comes and goes; enlightenment is stopping identification with it.

THIS!

19 minutes ago, virtue said:

1. Depends a lot what you call normal! Free will is a metaphysical fact and the basis for the adage that God helps those who help themselves. The Buddha taught that small and big karmic currents propel us in uncontrollable and unpleasant manner until we exercise our free will and wisdom to see through the mind. Our good and bad actions also accumulate merits for gain and loss, but good merit usually isn't sufficient to break our self-identification patterns.

Yes again - I emphatically agree with you.  

[GSmaster]

1 hour ago, virtue said:

diluted arm chair philosophy

 

Arm chair philosphers who never had real spiritual practice.  Qi does not exist guys, just move on.

 

2 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

just a person with the thinking mind destroyed

 

That is exactly what is called wishful thinking. If only gaining enlightenment would be so easy as not to think.

 

1 hour ago, virtue said:

can gain a million dollars

 

It is just flick of a finger for someone who can see into the future. Quite literally one button on mobile phone will make you millionaire and billionaire if you can slightly see into the future / be omniscient.

 

In other cases those who can materialize stuff, could easily create something worth millions / billions.

 

And if someone is capable of curing lethal diseases, wealthy people will pay fortunes for it.

[dwai]

 

 

 

 

1

On 11/12/2019 at 1:57 PM, Taomeow said:

 

Personally, I believe in a kind of yo-yo cultivation of now xing, now ming, where every next stage of one (doesn't matter which) informs the next stage of the other and helps it arrive at a new level -- ultimately both arriving at a new level with every such "upgrade."  Experientially, that's how it goes for most modern cultivators.  If you focus on one exclusively, you lose perspective of the other, thereby  losing traction of either xing or ming and, consequently, and somewhat paradoxically, both --  attending to just one is not unlikely to impede the other and thereby be impeded itself. 

 

My teacher had told me that there is a cycle of 3 x 7 years in the formal training circles. Seven years of physical/body training, seven years of energetic training and seven years of consciousness training, and then back to physical body training, and so on. So on and on it goes...refinement upon refinement. Somehow, I'd forgotten all about it until i just re-read your post  

[johndoe2012]

On 3/19/2020 at 4:58 PM, GSmaster said:

 

Arm chair philosphers who never had real spiritual practice.  Qi does not exist guys, just move on.

 

 

That is exactly what is called wishful thinking. If only gaining enlightenment would be so easy as not to think.

 

 

It is just flick of a finger for someone who can see into the future. Quite literally one button on mobile phone will make you millionaire and billionaire if you can slightly see into the future / be omniscient.

 

In other cases those who can materialize stuff, could easily create something worth millions / billions.

 

And if someone is capable of curing lethal diseases, wealthy people will pay fortunes for it.

 

Thinking mind = automatic thoughts that cause suffering. Enlightenment = end of suffering in Buddhism. No suffering = end of that type of thinking.

 

Anyone thinking of gaining lots of money in spirituality is obviously still under the influence of strong egoic desires. And desire is the root of suffering, so this person still has heavy suffering going on.

 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, johndoe2012 said:

Anyone thinking of gaining lots of money in spirituality is obviously still under the influence of strong egoic desires. And desire is the root of suffering, so this person still has heavy suffering going on.

 

I agree with your statement overall - but it needs to be a bit more nuanced...

 

Seeing money as 'egoic' is in itself attachment.

 

Money is money. Rejecting money is also a sign of egoic tendencies. Just as craving money is.

 

Many of the non-renunciate masters I've met have plenty of money - but without the clinging and aversion that most of us 'normal' people would have.

[dwai]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

I agree with your statement overall - but it needs to be a bit more nuanced...

 

Seeing money as 'egoic' is in itself attachment.

 

Money is money. Rejecting money is also a sign of egoic tendencies. Just as craving money is.

 

Many of the non-renunciate masters I've met have plenty of money - but without the clinging and aversion that most of us 'normal' people would have.

100% correct. It's not wrong or bad to be wealthy or materially successful, so long as there is no craving/clinging. Neither should one be averse to a reversal of fortunes either. Acceptance of the current situation is a very practical approach to life. Accept what is, then work on what you want to do. Eventually, we'll notice that the doing has become not-doing. 

[SirPalomides]

Some thoughts from the Analects on the attainment of wealth:

 

[4:5] Confucius said, “Riches and honors are what all men desire. But if they cannot be attained in accordance with the Way they should not be kept. Poverty and low status are what all men hate. But if they cannot be avoided while staying in accordance with the Way, you should not avoid them. If a noble man departs from his fundamental goodness, how can he be worthy of that name? A noble man never leaves his fundamental goodness for even the time of a single meal. In moments of haste he acts according to it. In times of difficulty or confusion he acts according to it.”

 

[7:16] The Master said: “I can live with coarse rice to eat, water for drink and my arm as a pillow and still be happy. Wealth and honors that one possesses in the midst of injustice are like floating clouds.”

 

[8:13] The Master said: “Be of unwavering good faith and love learning. Be steadfast unto death in pursuit of the good Way. Do not enter a state which is in peril, nor reside in one which people have rebelled. When the Way prevails in the world, show yourself. When it does not, then hide. When the Way prevails in your own state, to be poor and obscure is a disgrace. But when the Way does not prevail in your own state, to be rich and honored is a disgrace.”

[SirPalomides]

An interesting article by Joseph Adler on Confucian/ Neo-Confucian thoughts about ming, xing, and related concepts, which I believe influenced Daoist understandings of them: https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Heaven-Tradition.pdf

[KuroShiro]

On 5/7/2020 at 10:20 AM, freeform said:

 

I agree with your statement overall - but it needs to be a bit more nuanced...

 

Seeing money as 'egoic' is in itself attachment.

 

Money is money. Rejecting money is also a sign of egoic tendencies. Just as craving money is.

 

Many of the non-renunciate masters I've met have plenty of money - but without the clinging and aversion that most of us 'normal' people would have.

 

Very nice freeform, thanks.

I would say a true master could lose all his money/win jackpot and his emotions would be completely unaffected, which I believe is not the same as having emotions and not be affected by them.

Do you agree?

Edited May 8, 2020 by KuroShiro

[freeform]

17 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

Very nice freeform, thanks.

I would say a true master could lose all his money/win jackpot and his emotions would be completely unaffected, which I believe is not the same has having emotions and not be affected by them.

Do you agree?

 

Yeah I agree...

 

It's like losing or gaining a tissue...

 

That doesn't mean you can't add emotion to it - usually for the sake of humour

 

[forestofclarity]

Interesting quote from Zhuangzi (Ziporyn trans.):

 

Quote

 

Yan Hui went to question Confucius."When his mother died, Mengsun Cai wailed but shed no tears, unsaddened in the depths of his heart, observing the mourning but without real sorrow. Lacking tears, inner sadness, and real grief, he nonetheless gained a reputation throughout Lu as an exemplary mourner. Is it really possible to have such a reputation at odds with reality? I have always found it very strange." 

 

Confucius said, "Mengsun Cai has gone to the very end of this matter, beyond merely understanding it. For when you try to simplify things for yourself but find it impossible to do so, things have already been simplified for you. This Mr. Mengsun understands nothing about why he lives or why he died. His ignorance applies equally to what went before and what is yet to come. Having already transformed into some particular being, he takes it as no more than a waiting for the next transformation into the unknown, nothing more. When he's in the process of transforming, what could be know about not transforming? When he's no longer transforming, what could be know about whatever transformations he's already been through? You and I, conversely, are dreamers who have not yet begun to awaken. As for him, his physical form may meet with shocks but this does not harm his mind. His life to him but a morning's lodging, so he does no real dying. This Mr. Mengsun alone has awakened. Others cry, so he cries too. And that is the only reason he does so."

 

 

I am still not sure what to make of this Taoist "stillness of the heart." I suppose it is a natural stillness developed over time, rather than a cold indifference or an apathy. I can attest that when I am more aligned, things don't move the heart either-- not big things like my parents dying, but little things like people cutting you off in traffic. So I suppose it is possible. But is it worth it? 

 

On 5/8/2020 at 10:23 AM, freeform said:

 

Yeah I agree...

 

It's like losing or gaining a tissue...

 

That doesn't mean you can't add emotion to it - usually for the sake of humour

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by forestofemptiness

[Giles]

On 28/02/2020 at 12:10 AM, Pilgrim said:

Lahiri Mahasaya was very strict about being a householder on many occasions he refused to teach monks and told them get rid of those robes, dress like a person get a job and take a wife raise a family then I will teach you.

 

His chief student was one such monk who became a householder and his branch of the lineage continues on till this very day.

 

 

One of my current "teachers" was a kriyaban for about 15 years and his position on this aspect of walking the Path remains unchanged despite having moved on from teaching and practicing kriya yoga exclusively, which is one of several reasons that I really enjoy attending his satsangs.

 

[Thrice Daily]

Excellent Thread 👍