Xing and Ming cultivation

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

Yes the Taoist awakening is of the LDT.  The TTC and other texts are written from people who experience the world through the intelligence of the Dantien, therefore they intrinsically feel the flow of energies within the world.  This is different to the awakening of the Heart and traditions that do that like Sufism which feel the world through the intelligence of the Heart.

 

Whichever centre your tradition is working on there is actually hidden a centre of centres.  This is in the forehead.  It is so difficult to awaken that it is always awakened 2nd or 3rd stage, or not at all.   And it is partially developed through the awakening of any centre.  Perhaps this is not interesting but I say it anyway.

So a Sufi has an awakened heart plus a partially developed centre in the forehead (that he might not realise).

A Taoist has an awakened LDT plus a partially developed centre in the forehead (that he might not realise).

etc...

One of the implications of this is that whichever path you work on you should always do "awareness practices" (even if you are only interested in love or energ) because Awareness assists all awakenings and is close to the centre of the forehead.

 

In my experience, when awakening occurs, energetically the dantiens fuse into one super-dantien. So really, while it is possible to operate from each of these different dantiens (and we do it from application perspective, especially in the martial context), the awareness is unconditioned and prior to association to anything in the physical or the energy body. 

 

Actually there are other 'dantiens' which are outside the boundary of the physical body as well -- all of those fuse into one. 

[rideforever]

moved

Edited February 6, 2020 by rideforever

[EmeraldHead]

reading old threads. daode people say, if I understood them correctly, xing is yuan shen, and ming is yuan qi, of which yuan jing is no different, same substance or "essence" (meaning it has the physics mechanics in play and cultivation). correct practice of xing and ming will lead to the dao. i would agree IMO. the mind is preheaven, the body is postheaven.

[KuroShiro]

On 2/5/2020 at 7:04 PM, rideforever said:

Yes the Taoist awakening is of the LDT.  The TTC and other texts are written from people who experience the world through the intelligence of the Dantien, therefore they intrinsically feel the flow of energies within the world.

 

 

On 2/5/2020 at 7:04 PM, rideforever said:

A Taoist has an awakened LDT plus a partially developed centre in the forehead (that he might not realise)

 

I think what you're saying here is incorrect. There is nothing that's left partially developed regarding highest stages of True Daoist Cultivation.

 

The LDT is related to Jing. Daoism works with Jing, Qi and Shen, LDT, MDT, UDT.

 

The Dao De Jing was written from Universal Consciousness, being Universal there is no place in which it's not present, so you could say it's the intelligence of the DT.

 

 

On 2/5/2020 at 7:19 PM, dwai said:

In my experience, when awakening occurs, energetically the dantiens fuse into one super-dantien. So really, while it is possible to operate from each of these different dantiens (and we do it from application perspective, especially in the martial context), the awareness is unconditioned and prior to association to anything in the physical or the energy body. 

 

Actually there are other 'dantiens' which are outside the boundary of the physical body as well -- all of those fuse into one. 

Can you share more about the other 'dantiens'?

thanks.

 

On 2/5/2020 at 2:21 PM, dwai said:

The Anahata sound is ringing in my inner ear 24x7. The Daoists call it the sound of Dao (my master calls it the sound of emptiness) -- sounds like a waterfall or thousands of windchimes going off at the same time, or thousands of cicadas buzzing at the same time at a very high pitch. 

 

That sounds.. horrible?

I thought the Dao was soundless haha. What a bummer thanks for sharing.

 

[rideforever]

18 minutes ago, KuroShiro said:

The Dao De Jing was written from Universal Consciousness, being Universal there is no place in which it's not present, so you could say it's the intelligence of the DT.

 

No it is not. 

But probably you mean spirituality is spirituality, and that's all.   There is something true about that.  But I think especially with internal arts where you are cultivating a particular energetic aspect of reality not found in other traditions ... it becomes obvious that your energetic awareness is a particular aspect of spirituality that the Chinese have developed.

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

specially with internal arts where you are cultivating a particular energetic aspect of reality not found in other traditions ... 

Is this because of more time spent on the LDT, or do you feel this area do not exist in other energetic traditions? 

[rideforever]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

Is this because of more time spent on the LDT, or do you feel this area do not exist in other energetic traditions? 

 

Yes this area does not exist in other traditions, for instance if you look in the chakra maps from India it is not there.  They have the perineum chakra, the sacral chakra, then there is a big gap of about 1ft and then manipura is where the rib cage parts.   Sometimes manipura is placed further down, they are unsure what is happening between the sacral and the solar plexus.  
It is not there in India, although the chakras are poorly understood today so in the past maybe they also knew it.

The only other place where it may be is in the Russian crucifix, the lowest of the 3 bars could indicate the LDT.

But each tradition has taken thousands if not tens of thousands of years to develop and represents a beautiful exploration into reality by a particular culture.  Cultures that were emotional worked on the heart, the intellectual cultures worked on centres associated with intelligence ... and in China the Dantien, perhaps they are grounded people who feel themselves in the belly, or perhaps a transmission happened there from a Being. 

The regions which can be developed inside us are not really like different coloured M&Ms.  They have particular functions and are cultivated in particular ways.  Each one takes years of devotion.

Being an energy master ... is not more important than feeling the bliss of the divinity of god of the Sufis.

We only have so much time in one life.

[Cleansox]

5 minutes ago, rideforever said:

 

It is not there in India, although the chakras are poorly understood today so in the past maybe they also knew it.

It is not there in modern charts, the one Woodruffe/Avalon based his book on. 

 

There are older systems that has it. 

[rideforever]

57 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

It is not there in modern charts, the one Woodruffe/Avalon based his book on. 

He seems like a typical British India-phile.  Concerned with Kundalini serpents going up, always up up up to the crown.  This is not the same as Taoism, which is the valley of the universe, valley is down, flowing gently.

But, in India there undoubtedly is vast knowledge of many sorts.   I was just reading about UG Krishnamurti, he seems to have triggered some sort of energetic enlightenment related to Taoism ... but it is different.  In India they just want to blow their head off.  Everything, even Pranayam, it's simply about exploding your head.   It's a bit childish really.  Even if you succeed who will be there to enjoy the discovery?  They don't care.
Perhaps I have some wishful thinking but I have the feeling that Taoists appreciate the enlightenment of the Dantien.  They appreciate Earth, and so they have a relationship to Christianity, which appreciates Earth.  The Son of God who came to Earth, build a castle on the hill so all can see it and the images of people on the church walls.  They like to be people, children of God. 
In India the only question was ... how the fk can I get out of here?

Edited February 8, 2020 by rideforever

[Cleansox]

Yes. 

If you believe that life is an illusion, Ming will be poison. 

Interesting way to see life. 

[dwai]

 

7 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

The Dao De Jing was written from Universal Consciousness, being Universal there is no place in which it's not present, so you could say it's the intelligence of the DT.
 

 

this is a very insightful observation. 

7 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

Can you share more about the other 'dantiens'?

thanks.

there are other dantiens outside the boundary of the physical body. There is one above the crown (~ 18” above it) - that is the one that connects us to the “higher Self”. Think of it this way — 

 

our body is the physical body. There is an astral/energy body which contains the physical body — that’s where the Qi etc are moving. 
Then there is the causal body, which contains the astral. Our experiences and destiny etc are determined in the causal plane — which has to deal with karma. 
 

When our inner vision develops to a point where we can know the causal plane, things become very clear. This 8th center above the crown and higher are the gateway to increasing clarity etc. 

 

But I suggest that even if you haven’t developed those capabilities (ie accessing the astral or causal), you can still be awakened — by first realizing what is it that gives us the ability to know. By simply holding on to this essence, little by little (or all at once) a clarity will arise and we can see through all phenomena.

7 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

 

 

That sounds.. horrible?

I thought the Dao was soundless haha. What a bummer thanks for sharing.

 

Not horrible at all — sound is an interpretation of the mind. This sound can take us deeper into our Self, like a thread rising out of silence — we can track it back into silence. 

[EmeraldHead]

16 hours ago, dwai said:

This sound can take us deeper into our Self

The self doesn't have a subconscious. That is the mind.

[EmeraldHead]

16 hours ago, dwai said:

there are other dantiens outside the boundary of the physical body

they are not dan tiens mate and you know it. I can see that you like to combine words like a puzzle. Dan tien is physical body. You know it. I know what you mean though, but reading precisely it's a moldy soup.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

16 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Not horrible at all — sound is an interpretation of the mind. This sound can take us deeper into our Self, like a thread rising out of silence — we can track it back into silence. 

 

This! Thanks my friend.

 

I had recurring tinnitus but over the years it lessned into almost never occuring, and that sound is horrible. Deeply unnerving even if compared to the sound of Dao which can be used as an analogy. The latter is not deafening or distracting, Dwais description of it as a thread of is very apt, eerily so.

 

It’s my current understanding that this sound is like almost all of the things related to energy: not a perception or interpretation of the energy itself but rather what occurs as a correlated phenomena when that particular process is allowed to happen and experienced.

 

But i think that, which is a sort of rule with these things, it is a confirmation that something has already begun and the meresr perceptible testimony of this is just that sound, at an early stage. Who knows about later?

 

If you’d go to someone who knows evermore of this truly they prolly tell you to never mind the ringing in your ears, just like it is no accomplishment for a healthy body and spirit to acknowledge hunger or needing to pee. You go do your thing and get back to the important business.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, EmeraldHead said:

The self doesn't have a subconscious. That is the mind.

Very perceptive  

it is the mind that the Self uses to both veil and then again find itself — it is a peculiar game of hide and seek 😃😃

[dwai]

1 hour ago, EmeraldHead said:

they are not dan tiens mate and you know it. I can see that you like to combine words like a puzzle. Dan tien is physical body. You know it. I know what you mean though, but reading precisely it's a moldy soup.

I’m not so sure that Dantien is physical body. Why is it so? Where ‘in the physical body’ is a Dantien. Yes they do seem to have some correlation with physical locations , but they are themselves not physical. 

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

This! Thanks my friend.

 

I had recurring tinnitus but over the years it lessned into almost never occuring, and that sound is horrible. Deeply unnerving even if compared to the sound of Dao which can be used as an analogy. The latter is not deafening or distracting, Dwais description of it as a thread of is very apt, eerily so.

 

It’s my current understanding that this sound is like almost all of the things related to energy: not a perception or interpretation of the energy itself but rather what occurs as a correlated phenomena when that particular process is allowed to happen and experienced.

 

But i think that, which is a sort of rule with these things, it is a confirmation that something has already begun and the meresr perceptible testimony of this is just that sound, at an early stage. Who knows about later?

 

If you’d go to someone who knows evermore of this truly they prolly tell you to never mind the ringing in your ears, just like it is no accomplishment for a healthy body and spirit to acknowledge hunger or needing to pee. You go do your thing and get back to the important business.

When it started happening to me, the cicadas in my backyard would start singing their symphony in sync with i — when I did taichi in the backyard. Then I started hearing them inside the house, which is almost 100% soundproof from outside sounds.

 

Haha 😂 I thought there was a cicada factory in the walls....

 

Then I connected with my friend remotely one time and the cicadas and wind chimes —- thousands of them going off at once - but not loud, started. He said, “do you hear the cicadas?”
I said, “all the time!” 

I said, “do you hear the windchimes?” 

he said, “all the time!”

 

Then when we interact with other “higher” beings in the astral and causal planes, the tone changes. I think everyone has a “different signature tone”, if we pay some attention.

 

Iinm @Spotless used to mention the “tone” of different people...
 

 

[rideforever]

The awakened soul does have a subconscious, because the soul is a structure that grows out the primordial chaos gradually creating order through unconscious > subconscious and finally conscious.  It is a tower.  Once illuminated it simply means the top of the tower is clean and above the clouds, but it still rests on the tower of the subconscious rising from the dark depths of chaos, and if it is not maintained the soul can drop down again.

Buddha had already experienced many awakened states, but when he was under the tree he "fought the demons of Mara", meaning what?  This is simply the purification of the subconscious. 

It is common to see many modern spiritual speakers fighting with money sexuality and their "mind".  What is all that?  It is simply their subconscious.  There is no getting away from it as it is part of your tower.

There is no real independence of consciousness, it resides on a tower.

Why did Ramana Maharshi die of cancer?  It was because he was a typical Indian sage, a great one perhaps, but he did no purification of his energy system and was not healthy in the body.  He was not interested in that.
A real seeker reaches great heights at all levels of his tower, subconscious, conscious, physically, sexually, humanly.   All levels of all planes that you intersect.  You bring illumination to everything everywhere.  Then you are a seeker of the light.

Otherwise you are just a fool sitting there with some small "awakening" whilst the rest of you is covered in junk.

Some people wish to try a primitive spirituality ... dark spiritualities ... these refer to relative illuminations in the unconscious and subconscious worlds, in the wilderness.

Great power comes from those with multi-level illumination, illumination in the entire tower.

 

- but yes going back, being Conscious abiding in a state of Consciousness is a singularity, it is self-stable and you can be absorbed into it as if nothing else exists.  When you practice in this way you should practice in that way, that is the practice.
But ... many other things do still exist.  Life is vast.

 

Edited February 9, 2020 by rideforever

[Chainer]

54 minutes ago, dwai said:

Then when we interact with other “higher” beings in the astral and causal planes, the tone changes. I think everyone has a “different signature tone”, if we pay some attention.

 

Iinm @Spotless used to mention the “tone” of different people...
 

 

 

This is interesting. 

 

I've had anahata sounds on my 'big list of things to ask about' when I'm on this forum for several years, but never got round to it, so hope you don't mind a couple of questions. 

 

The ringing in my ears has got considerably worse in last 3 to 4 years, much as its been there as long as I can remember - I've always had sensitive hearing. I have 2 layers of sound, that act separately and don't seem connected. 

 

1. the subtler of the 2, a continually pulsing sound, changes every 1 to 2 secs, with 2 distinct tones only, sounds like a modem and gets worse with sensitive tooth paste use ( known side effect). Happy to write this one off as a form of tinnitus and seems directly connected to strong wifi sources.

2. the much louder one, a thick overlay of sound as a constant tone that does sound like cicadas, however it does seem to change tone out of the blue, usually with a sudden thought form or emotional mood change, and can stay in this changed state for several hours. I used to think it was simply tension release in my neck/shoulders but I can't replicate the tone change by manipulation.    

 

The only other person I've asked was a guy who claimed to practice an ancient form of 'Shaktisim', who has given me very good advice in several areas of meditation, however many of his interests seemed very dark in feel and obscure in terms of method. 

 

He told me that its 'anahata' sounds, then asked me a couple of questions before telling me I was probably between level 2 or 3, and I would need to do a specific practice if I wanted to progress to higher levels. Was very much focused on Yantra's at the time which he knew a lot about, so did not progress the discussion as it seemed to be a bit of a rabbit hole. However I've become a lot more interested in auditory stuff recently after various other experiences I've started to have, which seem connected to the Yantra work. 

 

Only other thing I'd add is that the main sound has now got so loud its a constant companion, I don't need to cover my ears to hear it, its very persistent even in a loud environment, but does not bother me as I can switch my attention off it easily enough.  

 

Any thoughts or advice on any type of practice would be gratefully received. 

 

        

[dwai]

29 minutes ago, Chainer said:

 

This is interesting. 

 

I've had anahata sounds on my 'big list of things to ask about' when I'm on this forum for several years, but never got round to it, so hope you don't mind a couple of questions. 

 

The ringing in my ears has got considerably worse in last 3 to 4 years, much as its been there as long as I can remember - I've always had sensitive hearing. I have 2 layers of sound, that act separately and don't seem connected. 

 

1. the subtler of the 2, a continually pulsing sound, changes every 1 to 2 secs, with 2 distinct tones only, sounds like a modem and gets worse with sensitive tooth paste use ( known side effect). Happy to write this one off as a form of tinnitus and seems directly connected to strong wifi sources.

2. the much louder one, a thick overlay of sound as a constant tone that does sound like cicadas, however it does seem to change tone out of the blue, usually with a sudden thought form or emotional mood change, and can stay in this changed state for several hours. I used to think it was simply tension release in my neck/shoulders but I can't replicate the tone change by manipulation.    

Try this out — when you sit down to meditate, in your mind’s eye, visualize some higher being you want to connect with, as sitting in your heart center. With as much detail without obsessing over it as you can. When it clicks, you will feel your heart vibrating, like it’s filling up with the presence of the being (some deity or Great master). 
 

Stay with that for a while, letting that presence wash all over your body. 
 

observe what happens with the tone you’re hearing. 
 

next, switch your attention to a spot approx 18” above your crown. Do the same process — feel the presence there and this time, you feel yourself flowing upward and filling up the ‘body’ of this deity or being. Stay with whatever happens for a while — observe what happens with the tone. 

VERY IMPORTANT— if you feel tired or feel any pain while doing this, you are overdoing it. Stop immediately. It should come easily and naturally. If it is hard, don’t try it until you feel drawn to it again. 

Quote

 

The only other person I've asked was a guy who claimed to practice an ancient form of 'Shaktisim', who has given me very good advice in several areas of meditation, however many of his interests seemed very dark in feel and obscure in terms of method. 

 

He told me that its 'anahata' sounds, then asked me a couple of questions before telling me I was probably between level 2 or 3, and I would need to do a specific practice if I wanted to progress to higher levels. Was very much focused on Yantra's at the time which he knew a lot about, so did not progress the discussion as it seemed to be a bit of a rabbit hole. However I've become a lot more interested in auditory stuff recently after various other experiences I've started to have, which seem connected to the Yantra work.

 

not sure what level 2 or 3 means. One of my kriya yoga friends said his guru says these sounds are sounds of the divine talking to us. To try and discern what is being said. 

Quote

 

Only other thing I'd add is that the main sound has now got so loud its a constant companion, I don't need to cover my ears to hear it, its very persistent even in a loud environment, but does not bother me as I can switch my attention off it easily enough.  

yes it has been like that for me for years now. It is not tinnitus — tinnitus is very unpleasant in my experience. The sound freq varies from 10K - 18-20K Hz for me.

 

Quote

 

Any thoughts or advice on any type of practice would be gratefully received. 

 

        

Try what I suggested above if you like. Not sure what your background is, but it seems like you have a tantra/yoga practice based on what you’ve written. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by dwai

[silent thunder]

 

 

for me, there's a low sustained, rhythmic, rolling thunder

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Ah @dwai thats a very interesting technique!

 

Besides stopping at discomfort or pain, wouldnt you recommend some incense, asking the particular deity to attend and explaining what you would like to do, have them consent and listen to their thoughts on the experiment before placing them inside your heart or even presuming to visit theirs?

 

I was just thinking how i’d react if some stranger manhandled me into their insides out of nowhere and then jumped into my inimate heartspace, i’d feel violated and most likely pretty outraged, i’d definetly have words with them.

 

At least wine and dine me before attempting any intimate contact, you know?

[dwai]

10 minutes ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Ah @dwai thats a very interesting technique!

 

Besides stopping at discomfort or pain, wouldnt you recommend some incense, asking the particular deity to attend and explaining what you would like to do, have them consent and listen to their thoughts on the experiment before placing them inside your heart or even presuming to visit theirs?

 

I was just thinking how i’d react if some stranger manhandled me into their insides out of nowhere and then jumped into my inimate heartspace, i’d feel violated and most likely pretty outraged, i’d definetly have words with them.

 

At least wine and dine me before attempting any intimate contact, you know?

I’m assuming there’s a level of familiarity with the deity/being already. In Indian traditions they are called “ishta devata” (deity of your choosing). One is supposed to pick their ishta devata — it used to happen in India organically when I was a kid. We will find that we resonate more with certain deities or teachers. That is our cue. 
 

Having a mantra practice is a good way to introduce oneself to the deity. But really the deities don’t discriminate on who they allow to share their presence so long as the intent is pure. If it isn’t, it won’t work anyway. 
 

incense and mood setting etc are good too - but imho they’re more for us and the get us to loosen the left brain more. 

Edited February 9, 2020 by dwai

[Rocky Lionmouth]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

incense and mood setting etc are good too - but imho they’re more for us and the get us to loosen the left brain more. 

 

Ah, yes, i see.

 

Being inducted by my sifu to his tradition of southern chinese daoist deity-service the formalities of offering incense and conducting introduction and specifying the dealings with names, honorifics etc is for the sake of the deity or spirit as much as ourselves, far too sybolic and specific to be considered as just mood setting.

 

Once a well established report is in place formality goes into either shorthand or is quickly dispensed with, but essentially there is a social aspect to relationships with higher beings.

Even if you’re well acquainted certain observations are important, in the beginning it establishes respect and a space to commune, later on they represent affection and intimate respect.

 

But thats a whole different tradition, pardon the intrusion

Edited February 9, 2020 by Rocky Lionmouth

[Chainer]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

Try this out — when you sit down to meditate, in your mind’s eye, visualize some higher being you want to connect with, as sitting in your heart center. With as much detail without obsessing over it as you can. When it clicks, you will feel your heart vibrating, like it’s filling up with the presence of the being (some deity or Great master). 
 

Stay with that for a while, letting that presence wash all over your body. 
 

observe what happens with the tone you’re hearing. 
 

next, switch your attention to a spot approx 18” above your crown. Do the same process — feel the presence there and this time, you feel yourself flowing upward and filling up the ‘body’ of this deity or being. Stay with whatever happens for a while — observe what happens with the tone. 

 

Thanks for this, will give it a go and let you know. Always slightly nervous of invocation stuff however do seem more and more drawn to this style of practise of late. 

 

Only comment I would pass is that previously I've been told to use my solar plexus for this type of work, which has driven results but seems more connected to other parts of 'myself'. 

 

15 hours ago, dwai said:

not sure what level 2 or 3 means. One of my kriya yoga friends said his guru says these sounds are sounds of the divine talking to us. To try and discern what is being said. 

yes it has been like that for me for years now. It is not tinnitus — tinnitus is very unpleasant in my experience. The sound freq varies from 10K - 18-20K Hz for me.

  

Neither do I so I looked it up - apparently sound progresses through several different levels as your ability to interpret 'improves', I believe the next levels pass through 'cymbals', 'flutes', then 'bells' before 'rolling thunder' at the final stage.  Cicada's is an early undeveloped stage.

 

As part of this background search I also read that the ability to improve your interpretation seems to be linked to balancing the sounds between your left and right ears and focusing in on the sound, to the exclusion of all else which I'll also try. It would appear that the trick is to lengthen or 'slow down' the sound so you can better interpret it.   

 

Lastly whilst writing this I had a sharp tone change with increased pitch and strong mood swing, more a rising heat than compassion, but still was interesting.   

 

Thanks again.