Xing and Ming cultivation

[Earl Grey]

3 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

This makes lots of sense to me. BTW This is what I practice to maintain my mental and physical health.

Given the status of your mental health as evident in many of your extremely uninformed and unqualified posts, it’s enough to prove that it isn’t working.

[ReturnDragon]

9 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

With proper practice, not generally just practice. 

I have a teacher and a method. I do not have to resort to books. 

And proper practice leads me to interesting places. 

Books in this genre are mostly confusing, but when you know what you are looking fore you can interpret the gibberish from your own experience. 

 

But this area is just like the feedback you have got in other recent threads. There is more to these practices than what you learn at the introductory level. 

If you have a good teacher, then, why are you here asking questions like that?

Edited February 12, 2020 by ReturnDragon

[Cleansox]

6 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

If you have a good teacher, then, why are you here asking questions like that?

What question do you refer to? 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Cleansox
Spelling

[Cleansox]

In general, not knowing which questions you are referring to: 

I do not think I know everything. 

Other people here have more experience or a different experience than me, and knowing more of that will enrich me. 

Also, asking questions is called interaction, and is a social skill which I need to practice more. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Cleansox
Added sentences.

[ReturnDragon]

9 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

In general, not knowing which questions you are referring to: 

I do not think I know everything. 

Other people here have more experience or a different experience than me, and knowing more of that will enrich me. 

Also, asking questions is called interaction, and is a social skill which I need to practice more. 

At first, I thought you have a nei dan book and have questions from that. If you have any question, I can find the answers for you through the Chinese internet. I don't know everything but I can go find the answers. That is how I do my research.

[Cleansox]

8 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

At first, I thought you have a nei dan book and have questions from that. 

There is no way you could infer that from my posts. 

[Earl Grey]

16 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

At first, I thought you have a nei dan book and have questions from that. If you have any question, I can find the answers for you through the Chinese internet. I don't know everything but I can go find the answers. That is how I do my research.

 

Riiiight as though Chinese Internet has all the answers, no misinformation or disinformation. About as useful as getting the top five search results on any search engine. This is also assuming all the information is even online or publicly available to begin with, RepulsiveDragon. 

[ReturnDragon]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

And read up on your favourite nei dan book, or one of the few TCM books that are nei dan derived. 

 

You will see the difference. 

Sorry, from here I thought you have a nei dan book.

[Cleansox]

Just now, ReturnDragon said:

Sorry, from here I thought you have a nei dan book.

I have had a stack of them, translations by  Wong, Cleary, Pregradio and so on. Most I gave to the local used book store, some are still on a shelf. 

I just don't use them as a base for my practice, they mostly collect dust. 

[Bindi]

On 07/02/2020 at 12:03 PM, EmeraldHead said:

reading old threads. daode people say, if I understood them correctly, xing is yuan shen, and ming is yuan qi, of which yuan jing is no different, same substance or "essence" (meaning it has the physics mechanics in play and cultivation). correct practice of xing and ming will lead to the dao. i would agree IMO. the mind is preheaven, the body is postheaven.

This is how I see it, yuan qi (formed by bringing yuan Jing up to the heart) needs to be brought up and meet with yuan shen in the udt. The yang shen exists where these two meet in the udt, and is nourished by an endless supply of yuan Jing -> yuan qi which has been established in the two lower dantians. The yang shen is connected to the dao, and develops in accord with the dao once this system is put into motion. 
 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Bindi

[Walker]

2 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

Stay away from your nei dan books. Those are old ancient Taoist concepts. 

 

It takes a particularly depraved soul to come to the internet and council people not to read the classics of a tradition he has only encountered through Baidu searches. 

 

I will offer a counterpoint:

 

Indeed Daoist teachers often advise students not to attempt to practice directly on the basis of neidan books; they also often remind students that it can be difficult if not impossible to understand what they are describing if one has not been given an oral explanation and practical instruction. 

 

However,

 

I have never seen a Daoist advise people to stay away from these books. 

 

In fact, it seems to be understood that even if a beginning student is incapable of understanding their cryptic, abstruse contents, if a student is drawn to these books then it indicates there is quite a bit of predestined affinity (緣分/yuanfen) exerting an influence in this student's life, and there is no reason to stand in the way of that, because who knows where it could lead. And in fact, the response a student has to a seemingly-impenetrable book can be nothing short of... marvelous.

 

ShitDragon, stop lying to people. 每一開口，你就是造孽；每一開口，你就是褻瀆。戒之！當妖或當人，惟你可選！

[freeform]

42 minutes ago, Walker said:

it can be difficult if not impossible to understand what they are describing if one has not been given an oral explanation and practical instruction. 

There’s an interesting esoteric counterpoint to this...

 

A master can pass on a transmission (Ling as far as I understand) that works like a ‘key’ which unlocks classical texts in your lineage... So you might read some weird passage about a raven flying over a mountain lake in the south, but the meaning behind this passage becomes crystal clear - in a way that is hard to describe in words.

[Walker]

Just now, freeform said:

There’s an interesting esoteric counterpoint to this...

 

A master can pass on a transmission (Ling as far as I understand) that works like a ‘key’ which unlocks classical texts in your lineage... So you might read some weird passage about a raven flying over a mountain lake in the south, but the meaning behind this passage becomes crystal clear - in a way that is hard to describe in words.

 

Nothing short of... marvelous 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

The yang shen is connected to the dao

In very over-simplified terms:

Jing to Qi = Ming

Qi to Shen = Xing 

 

Qi is the important mediator to make anything actually happen. Most people are able to have Shen experiences, but few are able to make transformational change happen. Ming is the key to this.

 

Practice at the level of Ming creates ‘enough’ Qi to be able to make a transformational jump.

Qi is created in a number of ways... from the basic level of increasing the efficiency of the body (with Qigong, Yang Sheng Fa etc) to creating emotional and mental equanimity with sitting practices like Xin Zhai and Zuowang... To actually creating Qi in the body with Neigong processes or developing Jing and transforming into Qi with Nei Dan. This is all at the level of Ming (although arguably the sitting practices can take you to the level of Xing too).

 

Once you have enough Qi, you can then progressively move through the Shen ‘realms’... There are 9 realms in Daoism - 4 of those are considered ‘earthly realms’ - with Ming-based practice alone we are able to penetrate all 4 earthly realms (even fall into the ‘Ghostly realm’ if we make a big enough mistake  ) 

 

Xing (and Shen) based practices allow you to penetrate the 4 heavenly realms... (as well as the Hell Realm! if you do it wrong ) and I assume eventually Dao itself (which is the source of the heavenly realms)

 

Many people have had glimpses of these realms. These are often called ‘awakenings’. There are countless books written by people who have had various such awakening experiences.

They may be transformational experiences in the way that having a child is transformational... or even having a psychedelic experience can change your worldview... but they’re not transformational in the sense that you are now permanently operating from the perspective of a higher ‘body’ or realm. For this kind of transformation to occur you need Qi.
 

This is the wisdom of the Daoist (and some other ‘tantric’ traditions) that use Ming cultivation to create Xing transformation.

Edited February 12, 2020 by freeform

[freeform]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

This is the wisdom of the Daoist

 

The above explanation bypasses what is my main interest in Xing-Ming practice which is the transformation of one's nature to De - virtue... This is actually a 'side route' to the main path outlined above...

 

With the approach laid out above you can progressively develop until you're existing at the highest heavenly realms (whether you're in your body or not) without having transformed your nature (although it does automatically change to a certain extent)...

 

Transformation of the acquired personal nature into the 'congenital' virtuous nature involves alchemical and meditative work at the level of "the five lights" - along with deep introspection. This is what interests me the most.

 

The reality is that almost none of us are even capable of reaching the highest levels (let alone able to put in the time, effort, no-effort or even have the conducive life-circumstances to realise our full capability)... But developing... or at least striving to develop Virtue is accessible and beneficial to all

 

This still requires Ming cultivation as far as I can see!

[Bindi]

20 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

The above explanation bypasses what is my main interest in Xing-Ming practice which is the transformation of one's nature to De - virtue... This is actually a 'side route' to the main path outlined above...

 

With the approach laid out above you can progressively develop until you're existing at the highest heavenly realms (whether you're in your body or not) without having transformed your nature (although it does automatically change to a certain extent)...

 

Transformation of the acquired personal nature into the 'congenital' virtuous nature involves alchemical and meditative work at the level of "the five lights" - along with deep introspection. This is what interests me the most.

 

isn’t congenital nature the equivalent of the yangshen spirit? 

 

Quote

 

 

Quote

The reality is that almost none of us are even capable of reaching the highest levels (let alone able to put in the time, effort, no-effort or even have the conducive life-circumstances to realise our full capability)... But developing... or at least striving to develop Virtue is accessible and beneficial to all

 

This still requires Ming cultivation as far as I can see!

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Bindi

[idiot_stimpy]

Very interesting and informative thread thank you.

[Sebastian]

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

Transformation of the acquired personal nature into the 'congenital' virtuous nature involves alchemical and meditative work at the level of "the five lights" - along with deep introspection. This is what interests me the most.

Very cool. Since your post is about embodying virtue, do you mind expanding on this paragraph. Not sure what the five lights are - you mean the 5 elements ?
 

I was taught by my teachers that virtue can generate Yang Qi. Thinking positive thoughts about other people, doing good deeds without expecting returns slowly starts to build that good feeling inside your heart, and a healthy supply of light Qi that ascends to the higher centers in the body - the type of Qi that can fly.

But this is undoubtedly a lifetime practice. You become a good person basically and let your goodness become the impetus of your spiritual development towards the higher centers in the body. It will slowly open the subtle channels in the head, and keep them open.
 

This is unlike doing practices which involve the third eye immediately without worrying about your morality which seem a bit disingenuous in their approach. Unless you’re doing it with the right mindset of course.

 

I was told it’s easy to do a good deed and get that good feeling inside your heart .... and the Yang Qi that comes with it. It starts knocking at the door of the higher centers, and it feels good.

 

But can you keep doing it until the door slams open and you reach the Dao ? I think we all need to strive for that. Most teachers I met expounded the benefits of virtue in cultivation, so I think it’s great you have a specific practice for that. Dedicating merit would be a Buddhist example and would work the same, imo.

 

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, Bindi said:

isn’t congenital nature the equivalent of the yangshen spirit? 

 

It's a little more complex than that.

 

Sorry to get technical...

 

There are several 'levels' to the Yangshen spirit... It must be developed to reach each one of the higher 'realms' or 'alchemical bodies'. For example, the realm 'above' our physical human realm is the Astral Realm - this can be accessed with your Energy Body (in Alchemical terms). Your Energy Body is at this stage a Yangshen spirit - but there are still 5 realms above it... so it must be developed and transformed completely to move further up the line.

 

At the same time - you might have developed to the Astral Realm stage - and your Shen operates at that level permanently - but you're still bound by your post-heaven acquired nature... you can still act selfishly, without wisdom or patience. Think of the many spiritual gurus who 'fall from grace'...

 

Because the "light" of your spirit is always fragmented by the prism of your acquired self - so the 'white light' is fragmented into the 'five lights' and projects all the shadows and 'imperfections' of all that acquired debris covering this prism (acquired in this lifetime and others).

 

You don't need to 'clean the prism' to move up the heavenly realms (although arguably it helps)... But if you do clean the prism - the light that shines through is pure - and therefore naturally and effortlessly manifests as De (virtue) - at whatever state of consciousness you inhabit.

[freeform]

9 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

Very cool. Since your post is about embodying virtue, do you mind expanding on this paragraph. Not sure what the five lights are - you mean the 5 elements ?

 

Yes - the 5 elements - but 'earlier down the line'... meaning from Wuji manifest the 5 lights, from which manifest the 5 phases from which manifest the 5 spirits etc.

 

11 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

I was taught by my teachers that virtue can generate Yang Qi. Thinking positive thoughts about other people, doing good deeds without expecting returns

 

Yes - so this is the 'outside-in' approach... Using my analogy from the previous post - the distorted light that comes through the 'impure' prism casts shadows and distortions. This is common in Buddhist and Buddhist-influenced Daoist traditions.

 

The outside-in method you talk about involves using personal will to overcome the shadows and distortions... So your natural inclination might be to get angry at the person walking slowly and getting in your way, but then you use your personal will to detach from the anger, use some compassion and wisdom to understand that the person is probably tired and weak and can't walk as fast as you etc... and this overcomes your natural inclination to anger.

 

The inside-out approach involves using alchemical means to 'clean the prism' - so that the light that shines through is completely unobscured, undistorted from its congenital nature... Your inclination is not anger that needs to be transformed - your natural, effortless inclination is simply wisdom, compassion, patience etc. right from the start

 

I think you need a bit of both approaches.

[Walker]

50 minutes ago, Bindi said:

isn’t congenital nature the equivalent of the yangshen spirit? 

 

As I understand these terms, "congenital nature" probably refers to two words which are generally more or less synonymous in Daoist inner alchemy:

• 本性/benxing (akin to "basic nature" or "fundamental nature")
• 元神/yuanshen ("original spirit" or "primordial spirit")

The above two terms refer something that all people have, always. However, in the vast, vast majority of us they are obscured and effectively lost. They are akin to the Buddhist ideas of "buddhanature" (佛性/foxing) and "original face" (本來面目/benlai mianmu). 

 

Yangshen (陽神), on the other hand, is a result of successful inner alchemy cultivation up to a certain stage. It is a high stage, far beyond what most cultivators will ever achieve, but it is not the final stage, as the creation of the yangshen is only a start of a new process, which may be different in different schools. This is not something I have any personal experience in. The only thing I wish to say here is that you cannot fool yourself as to whether or not you have reached this stage. The yangshen is not merely a projection of mind or qi. Though it can, it is said, alternate between form and formlessness, when it takes form, it truly has form. In addition, in order for it to leave the body, significant, can't-be-faked changes in the body's structure must take place first. (These points differentiate yangshen from yinshen, which does not have form and does not need the physical body to change in order to leave it; in inner alchemy it is not considered a high accomplishment--or even a good idea, generally speaking--to project the yinshen out of the body). 

 

Strictly speaking, if we look at the meaning of the word "congenital," we can see that "congenital nature" could be used to translate another Chinese term, 稟性/bingxing, which is used by some cultivators to describe the acquired personality traits, tendencies, potentials, and even karmic burdens that come with people into the world from their past lives. One often hears parents describe how their infant children began to show remarkable differences in their personalities a very short time after birth. The concept of 稟性 is a possible explanation for why even a child only a few months old already seems to have something of a personality in place. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Walker

[EmeraldHead]

2 minutes ago, Walker said:

• 本性/benxing (akin to "basic nature" or "fundamental nature")
• 元神/yuanshen ("original spirit" or "primordial spirit")

The above two terms refer something that all people have, always. However, in the vast, vast majority of us they are obscured and lost. They are akin to the Buddhist ideas of "buddhanature" (佛性/foxing) and "original face" (本來面目/benlai mianmu). 

As I learned it yuan shen would be something akin to 'karmic body' in new age thought. meaning it has not surpassed karma. and it is the yuan shen that 'reincarnates'.  buddha nature on the other hand is beyond this entirely.

 

So are my facts wrong here^ or how does it work?

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Walker said:

It is a high stage, far beyond what most cultivators will ever achieve, but it is not the final stage, as the creation of the yangshen is only a start of a new process, which may be different in different schools.

 

Precisely!

 

4 minutes ago, Walker said:

Though it can, it is said, alternate between form and formlessness, when it takes form, it truly has form. In addition, in order for it to leave the body, significant, can't-be-faked changes in the body's structure must take place first.

 

Yes - exactly. In fact, every stage of true inner cultivation has physical or physicological 'can't-be-faked' changes that take place... this is what teachers check for all the time in their students.

[Walker]

2 hours ago, EmeraldHead said:

As I learned it yuan shen would be something akin to 'karmic body' in new age thought. meaning it has not surpassed karma. and it is the yuan shen that 'reincarnates'.  buddha nature on the other hand is beyond this entirely.

 

So are my facts wrong here^ or how does it work?

 

Certainly what Daoism calls the yuanshen is not the same as a "karmic body," nor is it free of the karma we humans carry with our bodies. If buddhanature did not come with you into this incarnation, how would you then be a buddha? I hope these sentences appear muddled and unclear. They should. Who, standing in the shoes of a mortal with no direct experience of these things, could hope to pry them apart using the flimsy tweezers of acquired knowledge, language, and thought? There is a certain point at which theory loses its value, important though it may be. Not saying you won't get a better answer from somebody else here, but there are far better things than good answers, and ants in the Sahara have better things to do than map the glaciers of Mt. Everest. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Walker

[EmeraldHead]

20 minutes ago, Walker said:

If buddhanature did not come with you into this incarnation, how would you then be a buddha?

since buddha nature is permanent and and this incarnation is not, it follows this incarnation is like a matrix or computer simulation inside the real world of the buddha nature. it is inside the buddha nature. so it does not come with it, because buddha nature is it's essence and cosmically it is it's source. as well as it's 'God' or sustainer.