Xing and Ming cultivation

[anshino23]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

 

 

Not from any particular view, just from my own, to me being controlled by thoughts, emotions, etc, is to be controlled by what freeform referred to earlier as ‘acquired personal nature’. I agree that this is the case, we are controlled by these things, but I don’t believe there is a need to control this acquired personal nature, or that this is the goal. For me our consciousness is mistakenly identified with acquired personal nature, and needs to somehow get past this and identify with ‘congenital virtuous nature’ which is the sapling or seed hidden within the nature of the door. 
 

In this sense, your equation “samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same” is not true, as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same. 
 

@ freeform and @ walker, If this is far different from the daoist view I stand to be corrected 🙂
 

 

 

I think it will require a very high level of wisdom to understand the true nature of emptiness - which is what the last stage of the Path alludes to - and is that which the Diamond Sutra points to. Samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same from the ultimate perspective, or in Buddhist terms the absolute perspective, but it is not that way for all of us who are still trapped in the relative perspective and have yet to awaken. Dzogchen also touches on this aspect at length. I can't speak from personal experience, but if we go by the teachings/accounts of enlightened ones, they claim that they look at a mountain and do not differentiate that as a "there" and a "here". in fact, they look at both us and all they see is that everything is One and from the same source. All dualities having completely vanished. For instance, the Buddha describes the fourth jhana as a place where dualities of pain and pleasure vanish. Furthermore, he describes the eight samadhi as the place where both perception and non-perception vanishes. So nibbana, according to the teachings, is where there is the unconditioned, which means that any idea of duality, even the idea of non-duality, vanishes completely and beyond a trace. That's because there is no self-nature in anything compounded. See the teaching of anatta. 

 

Another way of elucidating this point is to use the teachings of the Platform Sutra by Huineng. The story goes, that the fifth patriarch of Zen summoned all his followers and proposed a poem contest to demonstrate their stage of understanding the essence of mind. He would give up his robe and pass down the teachings to to whoever would win the contest and that person would become the Sixth Patriarch. Shenxiu who was a leading disciple wrote the following stanza: 

The body is the bodhi tree.
The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.
At all times we must strive to polish it
and must not let dust collect.

 

However, Huineng, having reached a much higher level of wisdom, composed the following stanza: 
 

The bright mirror is
originally clear and pure.
Where could there be any dust?

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The bright mirror also has no stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing.
Where could dust arise?

 

And after speaking with the Fifth Patriarch and being told a verse from the Diamond Sutra, Huineng fully awakened to full enlightenment. He became the Sixth Patriarch. 

 

The above stanza to me speaks on the nature of emptiness. Where can any defilements be in the bright mirror?  

 

You say "as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same" - but the question would be what is the root of your acquired personal nature? Is it real or unreal? Does that mean that there's a difference between it and the fundamentally pure from the absolute perspective? As I see it, your view is more like the first stanza as I view it since it is based on a duality between pure and impure from the relative perspective, and thus does not show the highest level of wisdom and understanding. 

 

Anyway, just my thoughts on it... Food for contemplation for all of us  

[Bindi]

55 minutes ago, anshino23 said:

 

I think it will require a very high level of wisdom to understand the true nature of emptiness - which is what the last stage of the Path alludes to - and is that which the Diamond Sutra points to. Samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same from the ultimate perspective, or in Buddhist terms the absolute perspective, but it is not that way for all of us who are still trapped in the relative perspective and have yet to awaken. Dzogchen also touches on this aspect at length. I can't speak from personal experience, but if we go by the teachings/accounts of enlightened ones, they claim that they look at a mountain and do not differentiate that as a "there" and a "here". in fact, they look at both us and all they see is that everything is One and from the same source. All dualities having completely vanished. For instance, the Buddha describes the fourth jhana as a place where dualities of pain and pleasure vanish. Furthermore, he describes the eight samadhi as the place where both perception and non-perception vanishes. So nibbana, according to the teachings, is where there is the unconditioned, which means that any idea of duality, even the idea of non-duality, vanishes completely and beyond a trace. That's because there is no self-nature in anything compounded. See the teaching of anatta. 

 

Another way of elucidating this point is to use the teachings of the Platform Sutra by Huineng. The story goes, that the fifth patriarch of Zen summoned all his followers and proposed a poem contest to demonstrate their stage of understanding the essence of mind. He would give up his robe and pass down the teachings to to whoever would win the contest and that person would become the Sixth Patriarch. Shenxiu who was a leading disciple wrote the following stanza: 

The body is the bodhi tree.
The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.
At all times we must strive to polish it
and must not let dust collect.

 

However, Huineng, having reached a much higher level of wisdom, composed the following stanza: 
 

The bright mirror is
originally clear and pure.
Where could there be any dust?

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The bright mirror also has no stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing.
Where could dust arise?

 

And after speaking with the Fifth Patriarch and being told a verse from the Diamond Sutra, Huineng fully awakened to full enlightenment. He became the Sixth Patriarch. 

 

The above stanza to me speaks on the nature of emptiness. Where can any defilements be in the bright mirror?  

 

You say "as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same" - but the question would be what is the root of your acquired personal nature? Is it real or unreal? Does that mean that there's a difference between it and the fundamentally pure from the absolute perspective? As I see it, your view is more like the first stanza as I view it since it is based on a duality between pure and impure from the relative perspective, and thus does not show the highest level of wisdom and understanding. 

 

Anyway, just my thoughts on it... Food for contemplation for all of us  

To me, I guess there is a chain of command, dao -> congenital virtuous nature -> the mind of thoughts and emotions. So to me the bright mirror would be congenital virtuous nature which is a reflection of the dao, and the mind (and heart and ldt) would be where the dust and mud have gotten lodged, eclipsing congenital virtuous nature. I have nothing against the mind, if it’s operating correctly within its systems specifications. Just my thoughts as well 🙂

[KuroShiro]

On 2/13/2020 at 8:44 AM, anshino23 said:

At least that was my understanding. I didn't think that an ill person could go directly to alchemical practice and transform and heal their chronic ailments. Never seen it at least. 

 

Well, that settles it then.

 

On 2/13/2020 at 9:15 AM, freeform said:

These are not ‘healing arts’ in themselves - they are spiritual arts with a byproduct of healing (because a healthy body and mind are more efficient vehicles for spiritual practice!) 

 

There are healing arts too... Like chinese medicine or Qi emission healing or herbs...

 

Although I can't say there's anything wrong with what you are saying here, this is not my understanding at all. I'm quoting it here to see if I'll remember to check it further down the road to see if my perspective has changed.

Thank you very much for your posts and for sharing the Teachings of Daoism.

 

 

On 2/14/2020 at 9:09 AM, freeform said:

Disappearing in a flash of pure white light is a sign of 'finally arriving' - meaning there is no need to return... but one can come and go as one pleases.

 

Long?

 

[silent thunder]

What about white light manifesting when no one's body passes on?

 

Extreme white light manifestations with multiple witnesses?

[anshino23]

2 hours ago, KuroShiro said:

Well, that settles it then.

 

Did I imply that it settled it? It was more of an open question than a statement of fact. I don't know what's possible. I'm open to all of it. If you believe in Buddhas and immortals, then transforming and curing chronic ailments isn't much a stretch of imagination.  

[freeform]

5 hours ago, silent thunder said:

What about white light manifesting when no one's body passes on?

 

Extreme white light manifestations with multiple witnesses?

Thats known as “the striking of Ling” - it begins in the inner vision and then usually manifests as something like a lightning strike in front of the person experiencing it - and it’s completely visible to witnesses.

 

This is the start of the stage after the blissful awakening stage. Equivalent to achieving (an experience of) 2nd Jhanna 

Edited February 15, 2020 by freeform

[silent thunder]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

Thats known as “the striking of Ling” - it begins in the inner vision and then usually manifests as something like a lightning strike in front of the person experiencing it - and it’s completely visible to witnesses.

 

This is the start of the stage after the blissful awakening stage. Equivalent to achieving (an experience of) 2nd Jhanna 

Thank you.

 

This light experience manifested for my wife and I rather recently (within last few years). 

 

I've shared the question several times, you're the first to offer a description of it.  *bow*  thanks again.

Edited February 16, 2020 by silent thunder
made it concise

[Bindi]

On 15/02/2020 at 7:14 AM, anshino23 said:

 

I think it will require a very high level of wisdom to understand the true nature of emptiness - which is what the last stage of the Path alludes to - and is that which the Diamond Sutra points to. Samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same from the ultimate perspective, or in Buddhist terms the absolute perspective, but it is not that way for all of us who are still trapped in the relative perspective and have yet to awaken. Dzogchen also touches on this aspect at length. I can't speak from personal experience, but if we go by the teachings/accounts of enlightened ones, they claim that they look at a mountain and do not differentiate that as a "there" and a "here". in fact, they look at both us and all they see is that everything is One and from the same source. All dualities having completely vanished. For instance, the Buddha describes the fourth jhana as a place where dualities of pain and pleasure vanish. Furthermore, he describes the eight samadhi as the place where both perception and non-perception vanishes. So nibbana, according to the teachings, is where there is the unconditioned, which means that any idea of duality, even the idea of non-duality, vanishes completely and beyond a trace. That's because there is no self-nature in anything compounded. See the teaching of anatta. 

 

Another way of elucidating this point is to use the teachings of the Platform Sutra by Huineng. The story goes, that the fifth patriarch of Zen summoned all his followers and proposed a poem contest to demonstrate their stage of understanding the essence of mind. He would give up his robe and pass down the teachings to to whoever would win the contest and that person would become the Sixth Patriarch. Shenxiu who was a leading disciple wrote the following stanza: 

The body is the bodhi tree.
The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.
At all times we must strive to polish it
and must not let dust collect.

 

However, Huineng, having reached a much higher level of wisdom, composed the following stanza: 
 

The bright mirror is
originally clear and pure.
Where could there be any dust?

Bodhi originally has no tree.
The bright mirror also has no stand.
Fundamentally there is not a single thing.
Where could dust arise?

 

And after speaking with the Fifth Patriarch and being told a verse from the Diamond Sutra, Huineng fully awakened to full enlightenment. He became the Sixth Patriarch. 

 

The above stanza to me speaks on the nature of emptiness. Where can any defilements be in the bright mirror?  

 

You say "as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same" - but the question would be what is the root of your acquired personal nature? Is it real or unreal? Does that mean that there's a difference between it and the fundamentally pure from the absolute perspective? As I see it, your view is more like the first stanza as I view it since it is based on a duality between pure and impure from the relative perspective, and thus does not show the highest level of wisdom and understanding. 

 

Anyway, just my thoughts on it... Food for contemplation for all of us  

 

The Quanzhen master and founder] Wang Zhe’s own writings refer to two men – one Taoist and one Buddhist – who appear to have given him some guidance... [He] appears to have been particularly familiar with two major Mahayana Buddhist scriptures – the Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra. He was probably also familiar with some Chan literature... However, as Hachiya has astutely observed, Wang Zhe did not abide by the thoroughgoing negation and non-assertion of Mahayana Buddhist philosophy. Fond as he was of borrowing Buddhist language to preach detachment from this provisional, fleeting world of samsara, Wang Zhe ardently believed in the eternal, universal Real Nature/Radiant Spirit that is the ground and wellspring of consciousness (spirit, shen, xing), and vitality (qi, ming) within all living beings. This to him was not “empty”(lacking inherent existence); it was fully Real (zhen).

 

From The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters by Stephen Eskildsen (pages 6-7)

[KuroShiro]

This book has arrived a couple weeks ago but looking at the printing it seems to be a copy. Anyone here knows if this is possible? Do they sell copies of original books in China?

Hope the text inside is the same as the original.

Haven't searched yet for Ming Gong and Xing Gong.

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by KuroShiro

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

The birth of the embryo represents the appearance of the original spirit (yuanshen) or Buddhahood and is understood as enlightenment. The process leading to the birth of the embryo consists of the purification of inner nature and vital force (xing and ming). Thus the true inner nature and vital force come into being, which in turn is equated to the return to emptiness. The embryo also indicates the unity of body (shen), heart (xin), and intention (yi) in a state of quiescence without motion. 

 

-  Martina Darga, Encyclopedia of Taoism, Routeledge, 2008.

 

[Walker]

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

It is important to understand what embody means. How can ice embody water any more than it already does?

Can a wave embody the ocean to it's fullest potential.  

 

I don't disagree with the principle your statement points toward.

 

I won't even argue that what you're saying is wrong and inner alchemy teachings are right.

 

But the inner alchemy teachings of many schools state that in order for one's accomplishment to be "real," one must go far beyond these philosophical concepts.

 

In Buddhism one actually sees something similar, but stated differently. It is said that high level bodhisattvas (recall that there are many levels of bodhisattvahood, the lowest of which begins the moment one makes bodhisattva vows, the highest of which includes buddhahood) can manifest as anything that may be needed to help a person, be it an apparition of Avalokiteshvara, or a glass of water.

 

Philosophical insights, even profound and everlasting ones that alter one's sense of beingness and resolve deep existential questions, will not on their own manifest a cup of water to slake your thirst if you are parched. This indicates that there is still a fundamental disconnect at work. Xing-ming teachings about the body are, one might say, very interested in this disconnect.

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

Yeah the thing with analogies is that we can't stretch them beyond a certain point -- if we do, silliness ensues. The wood-door analogy served the purpose it was intended to serve.  

 

I think you're just rejecting where I took your door analogy, because I took it in a direction that did not serve your purposes. 

 

What I said about the door reflects a pretty basic understanding of resolving xing and ming. 

 

If the door simply "knows that it is wood all along," this is great mind gongfu, and may lead to a sort of mental liberation.

 

But if the door cannot restore its living treeness and then its Daoness, it has work left to do.

 

I am not saying that is an ultimate truth, or even that I believe this is how things "really work" (I am not nearly on a level to be able to say). But I am saying this reflects basic Daoist inner alchemy teaching about the body. 

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

The body will be resolved when its karma is completed.  

 

Ok, no argument here. Except that Daoist alchemy says there must be reversal (逆)... Can your door become a tree again? Can you be a baby?

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

Liberation is not of the body-mind unit. Liberation is from the body-mind unit. That is enlightenment -- the body-mind unit doesn't become enlightened -- enlightenment is a realization of its True Nature. I bring back the dreaded Door which thought all this time that it was a door, apart from the wood. But then it realizes that it has always been wood. Only wood in a specific name, form and function.

 

This forum is full of people who have had epiphanies--likely many of them quite genuine and profound--that they "have always been Dao, only Dao in specific name, form and function," if you will. 

 

And yet, here they still are, passing through aging and sickness towards death, their original qi slowly being used up until gone. And when it is gone, the body collapses, the last breath is exhaled, the final drop of yang is exhausted, and one is utterly at the mercy of karma. This is the opposite of reversal, it is going along (順). 

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

Who seeks "immortality"? Ask yourself that question -- the answer will become evident. 

 

I am not sure what impelled you to write that question and that instruction, but I suspect (am I wrong?) that you're suggesting a mistake intrinsic in Daoist inner alchemy teachings is that they operate from the standpoint of having a self, an ego, an I. But the inner alchemy teaching's require wu wei (non-doing), which operates when there is wu wo (no self). Thus, there is nobody who seeks immortality, and no immortality to seek, and nobody who achieves immortality.

 

Recall, also, that "immortal" is a very poor but somehow commonly accepted translation of a Chinese character written 仙, 仚, 僊, and a couple of other ways. It may also mean 真人, 神仙, 天仙, and a number of other terms. None of them really correspond all that well with the English word "immortal." They have slightly different and sometimes ambiguous or changing definitions in Chinese.

 

Key is that whatever Daoist immortality is, teachers who are "in the door" do not emphasize a flesh-and-blood body that does not die, while they do emphasize that at the level of a 仙, space, time, self, other, and indeed all distinctions are irrelevant. 

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

 Where does this "rainbow body" go?

How does one know 'non-existence'?

These are not rhetorical questions...

 

And I am not fool enough to try and answer them. 

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

Yes...the jivanamuktas (Liberated while in a physical body) naturally have special abilities. Not everyone has the same ones. Many of these manifest due to the predilections of the body-mind unit (karmic tendencies, etc). Here liberation means breaking the cycle of birth and death. Not by becoming a perpetual spirit being (which is a prison too). All such perpetual spirit beings have their own karma and have to still come back to what is called a karma bhumi to exhaust the karma to become fully liberated. So long as there remains an identification with a story (however exalted it might be), it is not true enlightenment or liberation. 

 

Interesting and worth keeping in mind, but not something I am capable of commenting on. 

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

Lao Tzu's Daodejing is the highest level of Daoism there is.

 

That's an easy claim to make, but it's not something I think you are capable of commenting on. Please keep in mind you've never even read it...

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

It is not a daoist teaching -- it is from Vedanta.  

 

I am aware of that--that was my point. Daoist inner alchemy teachers do not, so far as I know, talk about those Vedanta teachings. They might be right and Daoist inner alchemy might be wrong and deluded, but we are not really discussing which school of thought/practice is correct, we're discussing what xing and ming teachings actually are.

 

You can't say "Vedanta says this and it is wrong therefore inner alchemy doesn't say that because it would be wrong."

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

This xianhood is a prison of its own (I've noted this above). It is a golden prison for sure. And might provide a billion years of contentment. But what then?

 

I am not convinced you understand xian-hood in terms of the theories that underpin this word's usage in inner alchemy, and even less in terms of experiential realization (I know that I do not)... But... Who knows. 

 

On 2/15/2020 at 12:06 AM, dwai said:

Actually, it is useful for those who are ready. Not many are...  

 

Congratulations on being there. 

[Bindi]

Quote

Dwai said: Yes...the jivanamuktas (Liberated while in a physical body) naturally have special abilities. Not everyone has the same ones. Many of these manifest due to the predilections of the body-mind unit (karmic tendencies, etc). Here liberation means breaking the cycle of birth and death. Not by becoming a perpetual spirit being (which is a prison too). All such perpetual spirit beings have their own karma and have to still come back to what is called a karma bhumi to exhaust the karma to become fully liberated. So long as there remains an identification with a story (however exalted it might be), it is not true enlightenment or liberation.

I see a lot of assumptions here. Gotama believed that the only way to truly end suffering was to not be born again, but this is ultimately just Gotama’s answer to the problem of suffering, it’s not intrinsically true.

 

Another assumption is that “All such perpetual spirit beings have their own karma and have to still come back to what is called a karma bhumi to exhaust the karma to become fully liberated“. It is just as likely that these ‘perpetual spirit beings’ need to exhaust all of their karma before attaining their ‘perpetual spirit’ state. On what basis do you assume your view? 
 

More likely Buddhist enlightenment is not even the aim of these Daoists, and is not seen as an exalted achievement by them. For example I might believe that to a Daoist to not be reborn is to fail in the effort to fulfil human potential which entails realising Xian-hood. 

 

I’ve never believed you can be a Daoist and a Buddhist and an Advaitan, something in each system will clash with the others, and you might have  to make a choice in the end. 

 

 

[Cleansox]

1 hour ago, Walker said:

/... ... / Except that Daoist alchemy says there must be reversal (逆)...

 

/... ... /

their original qi slowly being used up until gone. And when it is gone, the body collapses, the last breath is exhaled, the final drop of yang is exhausted, and one is utterly at the mercy of karma. This is the opposite of reversal, it is going along (順). 

 

So working through Wu Xing qigong is going along, but easing the passage? 

While working with the five lights would be a reversal (an earlier stage) and this would qualify as working with the Ming? 

[Walker]

18 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

So working through Wu Xing qigong is going along, but easing the passage? 

 

Even though I don't know what qigong style you're talking about, I think that would be a fair thing to say of qigong in general (with the caveat that in now and then the word qigong was used in such a broad way in China in the 1980s-90s that it encompassed inner alchemy... but generally speaking qigong and dandao are different things). 

 

18 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

While working with the five lights would be a reversal (an earlier stage) and this would qualify as working with the Ming? 

 

Hmm, perhaps by that point in practice xing and ming can't be discussed as separate "things," but I can't say. Better to ask Freeform or maybe @exorcist_1699 or the elusive @opendao.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Cleansox said:

So working through Wu Xing qigong is going along, but easing the passage? 

While working with the five lights would be a reversal (an earlier stage) and this would qualify as working with the Ming? 

 

Yes - it's a tricky subject...

 

In a way, with Wu Xing type qigong, you are working with the five lights but as a 'downstream manifestation'. So yes - you're easing, smoothing and making more efficient the manifestation of the five lights through the acquired self. It helps with health, emotional and mental regulation and balance - but not transformation.

 

Working with the five lights directly involves working at the transformative, alchemical level and xing-ming "not as separate things" as Walker says.

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

I’ve never believed you can be a Daoist and a Buddhist and an Advaitan, something in each system will clash with the others, and you might have  to make a choice in the end. 

 

Dwai regularly mentions that all paths lead to the same thing.

 

I'm not so sure...

 

Maybe they did at some point?

 

As highlighted in this discussion - there are clearly some major differences.

 

I believe there are at least some convergances. Certainly with the Burmese Buddhist teacher I train with, they have a very similar process to the Daoist approach. For example 'emptiness' is considered a trap - and one must move past it. There is even a big Qi-building component (although quite different in nature to the Daoist approach). They have records of past masters disintegrating into bright light at death etc. But then his line is an old Esoteric/Tantric line.

 

Many of the Mahayana and Chan lines I've come across work quite differently - and result in a very different sort of inner development.  Not my cup of tea

[dwai]

 

Quote

 

 

But the inner alchemy teachings of many schools state that in order for one's accomplishment to be "real," one must go far beyond these philosophical concepts.

these are not ‘philosophical concepts’ though they might seem like that to some. Everything is conceptual until one experiences it directly. Then the Concept becomes reality.

 

And by saying that, I’m not trying to exalt myself in anyway.
 

The whole purpose of sharing this is for those who are on the threshold of walking through this gate — don’t be deterred by naysayers and those that claim that “it is not possible if x, y or z” — that is bogus. Anyone can do it — it is not something you procure from outside — it is your Real nature, meaning it has always been yours, only you were looking here and there. 

 

Quote

 

I think you're just rejecting where I took your door analogy, because I took it in a direction that did not serve your purposes. 
 

Actually I rejected what you wrote because my example is meant to serve a purpose which was done  

I don’t see the point of extending it anymore I do in flogging a dead horse. 

Quote

 

What I said about the door reflects a pretty basic understanding of resolving xing and ming. 

 

If the door simply "knows that it is wood all along," this is great mind gongfu, and may lead to a sort of mental liberation.

There is intellectual knowing and there is direct experience. Surely you didn’t think I meant intellectual knowing?  

Quote

 

But if the door cannot restore its living treeness and then its Daoness, it has work left to do.

 

I’ll let the treeness go. Restore dao-ness! Now that is something amazing to consider. What is “dao-ness”? Can you describe it?  

Quote

 

I am not saying that is an ultimate truth, or even that I believe this is how things "really work" (I am not nearly on a level to be able to say). But I am saying this reflects basic Daoist inner alchemy teaching about the body. 

 

which is actually wonderful. That doesn’t mean much in terms of enlightenment. 

Quote

 

 

Ok, no argument here. Except that Daoist alchemy says there must be reversal (逆)... Can your door become a tree again? Can you be a baby?

 

maybe you misunderstand what “reversal” means. I too say there must be a reversal. The mind must turn back to find its own source (reversal). When it does, nothing more is needed. 

Quote

 

This forum is full of people who have had epiphanies--likely many of them quite genuine and profound--that they "have always been Dao, only Dao in specific name, form and function," if you will. 

 

And yet, here they still are, passing through aging and sickness towards death, their original qi slowly being used up until gone. And when it is gone, the body collapses, the last breath is exhaled, the final drop of yang is exhausted, and one is utterly at the mercy of karma. This is the opposite of reversal, it is going along (順). 

 

What begins must end. Even if you manage to extend it for a long time. Only way out of this cycle is to realize your True Nature. Not disappear into a cloud of smoke like puff the magic dragon. 

Quote

 

I am not sure what impelled you to write that question and that instruction, but I suspect (am I wrong?) that you're suggesting a mistake intrinsic in Daoist inner alchemy teachings is that they operate from the standpoint of having a self, an ego, an I. But the inner alchemy teaching's require wu wei (non-doing), which operates when there is wu wo (no self). Thus, there is nobody who seeks immortality, and no immortality to seek, and nobody who achieves immortality.

 

Who acts then?  

If one is at a point where action happens on its own, then they are no longer “reversing” anything? They’re just going along, aren’t they? 

Quote

 

Recall, also, that "immortal" is a very poor but somehow commonly accepted translation of a Chinese character written 仙, 仚, 僊, and a couple of other ways. It may also mean 真人, 神仙, 天仙, and a number of other terms. None of them really correspond all that well with the English word "immortal." They have slightly different and sometimes ambiguous or changing definitions in Chinese.

 

Key is that whatever Daoist immortality is, teachers who are "in the door" do not emphasize a flesh-and-blood body that does not die, while they do emphasize that at the level of a 仙, space, time, self, other, and indeed all distinctions are irrelevant. 

 

I don’t have any problems with that, fwiw. I too say the same thing. Only I don’t say one needs to retain the individual personality to do so.  
All it needs is to realize what we truly are. 

 

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That's an easy claim to make, but it's not something I think you are capable of commenting on. Please keep in mind you've never even read it...

 

after 13 years of teachings by my teacher using that book as the primary template, I’ve read it plenty. Question is, have you? 
 

 Why do you presume to tell me what I have or haven’t done?  

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I am aware of that--that was my point. Daoist inner alchemy teachers do not, so far as I know, talk about those Vedanta teachings. They might be right and Daoist inner alchemy might be wrong and deluded, but we are not really discussing which school of thought/practice is correct, we're discussing what xing and ming teachings actually are.

 

nowhere have i said that anyone is wrong. Errors are in the minds of the students mainly. The teachings lead to the same source. 

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You can't say "Vedanta says this and it is wrong therefore inner alchemy doesn't say that because it would be wrong."

 

I think I already answered that. I’ve got into trouble many times in the past with this. Neither is ‘wrong’. 

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I am not convinced you understand xian-hood in terms of the theories that underpin this word's usage in inner alchemy, and even less in terms of experiential realization (I know that I do not)... But... Who knows. 

 

Okay  

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Congratulations on being there. 

Thanks but I’m not alone. You are all already there, only need to reverse your gaze. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by dwai

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Dwai regularly mentions that all paths lead to the same thing.

 

I'm not so sure...

 

Maybe they did at some point?

 

As highlighted in this discussion - there are clearly some major differences.

 

I believe there are at least some convergances. Certainly with the Burmese Buddhist teacher I train with, they have a very similar process to the Daoist approach. For example 'emptiness' is considered a trap - and one must move past it. There is even a big Qi-building component (although quite different in nature to the Daoist approach). They have records of past masters disintegrating into bright light at death etc. But then his line is an old Esoteric/Tantric line.

 

Many of the Mahayana and Chan lines I've come across work quite differently - and result in a very different sort of inner development.  Not my cup of tea

Neidan is the most ridiculous method I’ve ever heard of, yet if natural unfoldment is achieved neidan is exactly what happens, starting with the lower dantian. And paradoxically that natural unfoldment has to be exactly directed - go figure 😄

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Dwai regularly mentions that all paths lead to the same thing.

 

I'm not so sure...

 

Maybe they did at some point?

 

Let me know what you find out  

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

As highlighted in this discussion - there are clearly some major differences.

you can summit a mountain peak using different routes (usually). Differences are in the means, not the end. Different means exist for people with different qualities, different karmic fruits. 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

I believe there are at least some convergances. Certainly with the Burmese Buddhist teacher I train with, they have a very similar process to the Daoist approach. For example 'emptiness' is considered a trap - and one must move past it. There is even a big Qi-building component (although quite different in nature to the Daoist approach). They have records of past masters disintegrating into bright light at death etc. But then his line is an old Esoteric/Tantric line.

 

Many of the Mahayana and Chan lines I've come across work quite differently - and result in a very different sort of inner development.  Not my cup of tea

See, you get it! Different means for different people based on their (individual) story templates  

 

[Cleansox]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

If one is at a point where action happens on its own, then they are no longer “reversing” anything? They’re just going along, aren’t they? 

I'd be surprised if wuwei is antithetical to reversing from post-to pre-heaven practice (isn't that how reversal is defined?). 

I'd be even more surprised if someone posted a clear description of this, thus clarifying the issue. 

 

I like surprises though, so please... 😁 

2 hours ago, dwai said:

 

 

 

[markern]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Many of the Mahayana and Chan lines I've come across work quite differently - and result in a very different sort of inner development.  Not my cup of tea

 What is the difference in terms of inner development?

[dwai]

59 minutes ago, Cleansox said:

 

I'd be surprised if wuwei is antithetical to reversing from post-to pre-heaven practice (isn't that how reversal is defined?). 

The challenge is with getting caught up in the mechanism instead of the objective. Let go of this obsession with post-heaven this and pre-heaven that. They are simply means to an end.

 

What does post-heaven imply? Name, form and function. What does pre-heaven imply? Prior to name, form and function. What was prior to name, form and function? We need to go back to that...the source from whence names, forms and functions arise. 

 

Do a little investigation -- Name, form and functions arise with the mind. With the mind also arise changes -- energy. So long as we're working with the thinking mind, we are working in post-heaven stuff. When we use the thinking mind (10,000 things) to trace back to it's source, we find an emptiness which is full of potentiality (One). That which knows that emptiness is our True Nature (Dao). When we rest as that which knows, nothing else needs to be done. Then whatever action arises, is wu wei.

 

 

P.S. I'm sure this will be greeted by some with howls of derision and/or indignation. 

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by dwai

[freeform]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

The whole purpose of sharing this is for those who are on the threshold of walking through this gate — don’t be deterred by naysayers and those that claim that “it is not possible if x, y or z” — that is bogus. Anyone can do it — it is not something you procure from outside — it is your Real nature, meaning it has always been yours, only you were looking here and there. 

 

The point is - that from the Daoist alchemical perspective - walking through this gate and discovering your True Self is a tremendous achievement - and considered the start of your spiritual journey. Whether that's misguided or not, I only have my experience of my teachers - who consider it a start. And the experience of teachers that consider it the end.

 

37 minutes ago, dwai said:

P.S. I'm sure this will be greeted by some with howls of derision and/or indignation. 

 

Dwai - despite how it may appear I personally really like you. I can see that you're speaking your truth and I respect that.

 

I respect it enough not to talk in objective global truths but always refer to alchemical Daoism and its perspective - because you've got your understanding and your perspective, and it's obviously of great value to you - and you're not willing to question it. From what I can see, Walker is doing the same - clearly talking about perspectives - not 'truth'.

 

Similarly, you might want to disagree in a more respectful way - stating things not as objective truth - but as your understanding based on whatever your experience is - you might even talk about that experience. This way maybe you'll feel less derided - no one can disagree with your experience.

 

The reactive "no you poor thing - you're still caught up in an obsession with form" type stuff just to make your point is pretty derogatory...

[freeform]

1 hour ago, markern said:

 What is the difference in terms of inner development?

 

I'm sorry - I rather not. If someone is here from these backgrounds, I'd be happy to discuss - otherwise, I think it's a bit disrespectful.

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

Neidan is the most ridiculous method I’ve ever heard of, yet if natural unfoldment is achieved neidan is exactly what happens, starting with the lower dantian. And paradoxically that natural unfoldment has to be exactly directed - go figure 😄

 

As a different perspective - I don't think there's anything natural about Neidan...

 

I find it quite unnatural... It takes natural unfoldment and reverses that process.

 

Natural unfoldment is the normal developmental process leading to a peak and then a slow decline and decay... one's body progressively gets stiffer, tighter, weaker and loses vitality... one's mind does too... Then we die