Xing and Ming cultivation

[Walker]

53 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

two methods....
The nature of Xing is to limited to mind;
The nature of Ming is limited to body.

Quote from an ancient Taoist grand master: 王重陽(Huang Zhong Yang):
"Xing and Ming must be cultivated at the same time and they cannot be separated."
 

 

It's Wang CHONGYang, Baiduboy. 

 

The limits you present here are incorrect, 亂猜專家.

[liminal_luke]

This whole discussion is above my paygrade but...can we agree that the journey does not end with non-dual awareness, even if such awareness is stable and ongoing?  

 

I like what Freeform has to say about transforming the body.  Maybe transform is the wrong word as it implies a change that doesn´t necessarily occur.  Maybe it´s more accurate to say that the body is perceived through the lens of this non-dual awareness.  Is Dwai´s position really different from Freeform´s?  Or does it just seem different because the emphasis is different, the words are different?  

 

I think that what happens sometimes is that a person can get a taste of the really real and think that they´ve arrived.  Like having the first bite of an appetizer and imagining that the 7 course meal has concluded.  Nondual awareness needs to suffuse through all the layers of reality from subtle to gross before the banquet is over.

Edited February 23, 2020 by liminal_luke

[dwai]

 

18 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I think that what happens sometimes is that a person can get a taste of the really real and think that they´ve arrived.  Like having the first bite of an appetizer and imagining that the 7 course meal has concluded.  Nondual awareness needs to suffuse through all the layers of reality from subtle to gross before the banquet is over.

The notion of “there’s more” is a bit of a misnomer imho. The way I look at it as follows — Realizing our true nature as nondual awareness is like a light turned on in a dark room. Sure you can see more stuff, but those too are not apart from us either. What feels like it’s deepening is that old patterns dissolve and disappear (some slow, some fast).

 

[Walker]

57 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

This whole discussion is above my paygrade but...can we agree that the journey does not end with non-dual awareness, even if such awareness is stable and ongoing?  

 

I like what Freeform has to say about transforming the body.  Maybe transform is the wrong word as it implies a change that doesn´t necessarily occur.  Maybe it´s more accurate to say that the body is perceived through the lens of this non-dual awareness.  Is Dwai´s position really different from Freeform´s?  Or does it just seem different because the emphasis is different, the words are different?  

 

I think there is a fundamental difference, not merely a difference in emphasis.  

 

If I may attempt to paraphrase, I believe Freeform is trying to explain that the interaction of non-dual awareness with the many layers of human being (including the physical) via methodology taught by a teacher of inner alchemy will cause these aspects of being (including the body) to transform. The transformations in question are tangible and profound; they are not simply shifts in viewpoint or identification expressed in poetic terms. The state of mind/realization that Dwai alludes to is indeed an indispensable component of xing-ming cultivation, but it is not an end unto itself according to the teachings of Daoist inner alchemy (the state Dwai discusses may be considered an end in other traditions, however). 

[ReturnDragon]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

...can we agree that the journey does not end with non-dual awareness, even if such awareness is stable and ongoing?  

I am not sure whatever that means! However, we may ended up with one of the four possibilities. 
1. Weak mind and weak body.
2. Weak mind but strong body.
3. Strong mind but weak body.
4. Strong mind and strong body.

Which one would you like to prefer? 

[Walker]

53 minutes ago, ReturnDragon said:

I am not sure whatever that means! However, we may ended up with one of the four possibilities. 
1. Weak mind and weak body.
2. Weak mind but strong body.
3. Strong mind but weak body.
4. Strong mind and strong body.

Which one would you like to prefer? 

 

This has almost nothing to do with xing-ming cultivation in Daoism, sorry. 不要以謬傳謬，二屄。

[liminal_luke]

15 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

...can we agree that the journey does not end with non-dual awareness, even if such awareness is stable and ongoing?  

 

 

8 hours ago, ReturnDragon said:

I am not sure whatever that means! 

 

Don´t feel bad ReturnDragon: I have no idea what I mean either.

[KuroShiro]

19 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I like what Freeform has to say about transforming the body.  Maybe transform is the wrong word as it implies a change that doesn´t necessarily occur.  Maybe it´s more accurate to say that the body is perceived through the lens of this non-dual awareness.  Is Dwai´s position really different from Freeform´s?  Or does it just seem different because the emphasis is different, the words are different?  

 

There's definitely a change and there are changes along the path. I believe that True Yoga Teachings also have Ming Gong and Freeform has also shared here about his Buddhist Tradition.

 

 

[ReturnDragon]

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

...can we agree that the journey does not end with non-dual awareness, even if such awareness is stable and ongoing?  

 

 

6 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Don´t feel bad ReturnDragon: I have no idea what I mean either.

...but it is very impressive though!

[Bindi]

If there can be quite a few different interpretations of Xing and Ming (https://daoistmeditation.com/2016/10/18/what-is-xing-ming/) to an extent it can be the one that most appeals to our perception that we settle on. My preferred perspective (for now) is that If the dantians (which naturally exist) are not cultivated, and the contents are not brought up from one to the next, then any realisation will be hollow, all sky (Xing) and no earth (Ming), which is to  miss the fact that what the cultivated earth contributes is valuable. 

[idiot_stimpy]

Its interesting and some thoughts I am having are, if Ming and Xing are both linked, could working on one side only also lead to improvement in the other side too?

 

Since returning to the forum, I have started to rest attention in the LDT instead of the UDT. I believe I have made small progress that is good.

 

Quote

The reason it becomes impossible to reach the higher states of spiritual
practice, when our chi and chi channels remain unrefined, is because our chi and
mental states are linked; if the pathways through which our chi flows are corrupted
or obstructed, then the circulation of our chi will not be smooth and our mental states
will accordingly be afflicted.

- pg.12, Spiritual-Physical “Gong-fu” or “Kung-fu” Transformations According to Taoism

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by idiot_stimpy

[idiot_stimpy]

Quote

On the other hand, if you do successfully retain your jing for a period of time
through the practice of celibacy but don’t cultivate the dual requirement of mental
emptiness, then your celibacy will amount to nothing but an exercise in restraint and
better physical health. Without the accompaniment of mental emptiness, even
though you retain your jing you won’t be able to climb up the spiritual ladder. You
need both celibacy and a mind stream that cultivates emptiness to bring about the
necessary transmutations on the spiritual path.

- pg.6, Spiritual-Physical “Gong-fu” or “Kung-fu” Transformations According to Taoism

 

Quote

When you cultivate mental emptiness, this will actually engender your shen.
In cultivating emptiness this will also develop your chi, which in turn means that

you’ll be transforming your jing.

 

Edited February 24, 2020 by idiot_stimpy

[freeform]

On 22/02/2020 at 3:29 PM, dwai said:

I often find that assumptions are made about paths different than ours. A good way to have a meaningful discourse is to first articulate the “other’s” perspective and have them agree that our understanding is correct. 

Sure

 

You're saying that you already are the perfect embodiment of Original Nature - you just haven’t realised it. And the realisation of your true nature changes nothing other than discovering your true nature was there all along. 

 

You say that Ming practices clean off any debris obscuring you True Nature - but it doesn’t give you the realisation - it just makes the realisation more likely.

 

What I’m saying is that from the alchemical perspective things are different.

 

Remember that the Daoist alchemical approach isn’t Ming then Xing... Its the cultivation of Xing-Ming together. 
 

There’s a sort of leapfrog game going on. Ming techniques help set the foundation for Xing... Here it’s in the form of Qigong, Neigong and internal martial arts.

 

Then working with Xing (a process outlined in DDJ) brings about awakening. The key here is that awakening sets up the foundation for deeper Ming work... which sets the stage for deeper Xing work. This is the area of more advanced alchemical processes and maybe some Neigong work on the congenital level.

 

Once you’ve achieved awakening in just the way you’re describing - the realisation of your true nature (and that you always were a perfect embodiment of your true nature - seems to be an important issue to highlight for you )

 

Once that has been achieved, you then proceed through a ‘transformation’ process. I think this is a key difference: transformation - realisation.

 

Although you’re an embodiment of your true nature, from the alchemical perspective, this embodied aspect, having gone through the process of being born is conditioned.
 

The reversal that’s been mentioned is taking this conditioned embodiment of your true self to a pre conditioned state before birth - (and then further back all the way to Dao) - this is a transformation at every level of your being - physical, ‘energetic’, karmic, causal etc...

 

So now maybe you could articulate the alchemical perspective (as I’ve already suggested earlier in the thread) - and we can see if we’re on the same page or not

 

[freeform]

On 23/02/2020 at 2:31 AM, Walker said:

 

I think there is a fundamental difference, not merely a difference in emphasis.  

 

If I may attempt to paraphrase, I believe Freeform is trying to explain that the interaction of non-dual awareness with the many layers of human being (including the physical) via methodology taught by a teacher of inner alchemy will cause these aspects of being (including the body) to transform. The transformations in question are tangible and profound; they are not simply shifts in viewpoint or identification expressed in poetic terms. The state of mind/realization that Dwai alludes to is indeed an indispensable component of xing-ming cultivation, but it is not an end unto itself according to the teachings of Daoist inner alchemy (the state Dwai discusses may be considered an end in other traditions, however). 

Yes - very succinctly put.

 

The bit highlighted in bold is important for the alchemical perspective (at least in the two Daoist lines I have extensive experience in).

 

It’s profound, physical transformation. 
 

I can’t talk about certain things. But things get weird in the more advanced alchemical stages.

And even much earlier on in one’s training - it becomes very obvious that things like channels, Dantien, even certain ‘energetic substances’ have very specific, very tangible, physical reality to them.
 

Most evident being the obvious changes in the body - including the creation of a physical LDT. Not a metaphor - not a fat belly - not a callus formed by repeated punches (I’ve seen people attempt to ‘build a Dantien’ this way  ) etc... 

 

On 23/02/2020 at 2:31 AM, Walker said:

The state of mind/realization that Dwai alludes to is indeed an indispensable component of xing-ming cultivation, but it is not an end unto itself according to the teachings of Daoist inner alchemy (the state Dwai discusses may be considered an end in other traditions, however). 

Yes precisely. This may well be a foolish, misguided misunderstanding on the part of alchemical Daoism - but it’s the case.

 

This transformation is also not an end unto itself either - the aim is the complete attainment of Dao.

Even though it seems ridiculous from the ‘you’re already a perfect embodiment of your true nature’ perspective - from the Daoist alchemical perspective this is the fastest, most efficient route to Dao.

[dwai]

41 minutes ago, freeform said:

Sure

 

You're saying that you already are the perfect embodiment of Original Nature - you just haven’t realised it. And the realisation of your true nature changes nothing other than discovering your true nature was there all along. 

 

That is all the change that is necessary  

All the ‘trouble’ occurs as a result of the veiling. Once the veil fully disappears, all trouble disappears as well. 

Quote

 

You say that Ming practices clean off any debris obscuring you True Nature - but it doesn’t give you the realisation - it just makes the realisation more likely.

 

What I’m saying is that from the alchemical perspective things are different.

 

Remember that the Daoist alchemical approach isn’t Ming then Xing... Its the cultivation of Xing-Ming together. 

It seems most start with Ming. Though I too have said earlier that they overlap and help each other.  

Quote

 

There’s a sort of leapfrog game going on. Ming techniques help set the foundation for Xing... Here it’s in the form of Qigong, Neigong and internal martial arts.

 

Then working with Xing (a process outlined in DDJ) brings about awakening. The key here is that awakening sets up the foundation for deeper Ming work... which sets the stage for deeper Xing work. This is the area of more advanced alchemical processes and maybe some Neigong work on the congenital level.

 

Quote

 

Once you’ve achieved awakening in just the way you’re describing - the realisation of your true nature (and that you always were a perfect embodiment of your true nature - seems to be an important issue to highlight for you )

 

Once that has been achieved, you then proceed through a ‘transformation’ process. I think this is a key difference: transformation - realisation.

 

Although you’re an embodiment of your true nature, from the alchemical perspective, this embodied aspect, having gone through the process of being born is conditioned.
 

The reversal that’s been mentioned is taking this conditioned embodiment of your true self to a pre conditioned state before birth - (and then further back all the way to Dao) - this is a transformation at every level of your being - physical, ‘energetic’, karmic, causal etc...

 

So now maybe you could articulate the alchemical perspective (as I’ve already suggested earlier in the thread) - and we can see if we’re on the same page or not

 

I think we’re on the same page here .
 

All I’m suggesting is that the transformation occurs as part of the process that unfolds after proper realization. Conditioning will fall away, as a result of simply abiding from that Nondual awareness. We call it ‘vāsana kshyaya‘ in the Vedantic tradition. Nothing more needs to be done except remain as your True Nature, though one could do more if they wanted to. It won’t make one iota of difference to our True Nature.
 

Being able to disappear in a flash of light is no better or worse than leaving your body the regular way. You never were the body, you were not even the mind — they are just ephemeral appearances in you, True Nature (Consciousness).
 

That said — it won’t make sense until it does. 

[freeform]

On 22/02/2020 at 2:36 PM, KuroShiro said:

This seems to be a contradiction?

[in response to esoteric Buddhism having similar processes but different methodologies for building Qi]
 

No - it’s just creating the same result (building Qi) through different means. If that makes sense?

 

On 22/02/2020 at 2:36 PM, KuroShiro said:

Also may I ask you why are you mixing both traditions, if they both have complete teachings?

Fair question - because I always strongly advocate not mixing traditions.

 

My case is a little different I guess. My main tradition - and the process I’m following is ‘alchemical Daoist’ at its root.

However, my Daoist teacher told me that I should go back and train with this Burmese teacher (who I’d met some time ago).

 

Funnily enough I never told him about the Burmese teacher (I had only trained for a few weeks there - so didn’t consider myself a student)... But he said I need to go back there and complete certain things.

 

When I went back to Burma, without any discussion I was given my own hut and segregated from the other monks and lay practitioners and instead of going to the Dharma talks and doing the other obligations I had to sit full time - with food being brought to me and having just one meeting a week with the teacher.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

That is all the change that is necessary  

From the Vedantic perspective...

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Being able to disappear in a flash of light is no better or worse than leaving your body the regular way. You never were the body, you were not even the mind — they are just ephemeral appearances in you, True Nature (Consciousness).

Again from the Vedantic perspective?

 

I think it’s important to add that.

Because this is not the alchemical Daoist pov. The Daoist perspective is that your body and your mind are a conditioned representation of your original self. And the process is to transform them back to Dao.
 

Disappearing in a flash of light is an indication to observers that that process has been completed... disappearing in a rainbow light is an indication that the process was almost completed etc...

[dwai]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

From the Vedantic perspective...

 

Again from the Vedantic perspective?

From a realization perspective  (it takes a bit of sussing out) 

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

I think it’s important to add that.

Because this is not the alchemical Daoist pov. The Daoist perspective is that your body and your mind are a conditioned representation of your original self. And the process is to transform them back to Dao.

Same with Vedanta, Tantra etc etc. Nothing new here. 

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

Disappearing in a flash of light is an indication to observers that that process has been completed... disappearing in a rainbow light is an indication that the process was almost completed etc...

Okay. But prove to whom?

[Creation]

dwai, to clarify you position in this, it seems like there are no stages in what you are referring to.  You either get that "You are that" or you don't.  Are there stages or a progression in this?  Even getting in for an interval and shifting out of it vs. a permanent shift? And, bracketing transformation of the physical body, what of emotions when you get it?  Some Vedantic teachers I have heard emphasize that desire and anger will completely disappear when you get it, others say it will still arise but you there won't be any identification with it and hence no suffering.  This would seem to have relevance to the question of bodily transformation, since arising of emotion is very much rooted in the physical body.

 

Something that seemed relevant to bring up is the example of the Buddhist Pali Canon, which has particularly simple and clear yet comprehensive models of the enlightenment process.  In the first stage of enlightenment, roughly speaking, your sense of separate self drops out completely,  and this guarantees you complete enlightenment after some number of lifetimes, but if you don't get further this number will be more than one, because anger and desire, which are causes for physical rebirth, still arise in your experience.  At the third stage, anger and desire drop out completely, and you will be reborn only one more time, in a celestial pure abode to work out any remaining attachment to subtle individuated existence.  The fourth stage, then, is total liberation.

 

 

freeform, you mention xing and ming each proceeding in stages and building on each other.  Some ming cultivation stages are well known such as certain channels opening, building the lower dan tian, etc, and others you mention are secret in your tradition.  What about xing?  Could you speak, even in broad terms, about what kind of stages are involved here? 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Creation

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Creation said:

freeform, you mention xing and ming each proceeding in stages and building on each other.

 

Yes - although in practice it's not really one then the other - one works on them concurrently to a certain extent... and one is very much influenced by the other.

 

2 hours ago, Creation said:

What about xing?  Could you speak, even in broad terms, about what kind of stages are involved here?

 

Sure. The process is always the same - and very simple... let go

 

But what you're able to let go - and what you're able to let go into is informed by other practices.

 

The stages are important in these traditions - because when you're in a deep state of stillness there are no stages...

 

The difficulty I have is that my main Daoist teacher explains these things using Yi Jing hexagrams - and although I understand it on quite a profound level, I can't really communicate it in words...

 

I quite like the Jhanna framework as it aligns with much of the more advanced Daoist path...

 

The first major breakthrough after samadhi is 1st Jhanna.

 

Entering samadhi for the first time is certainly quite life-changing as an experience - but entering 1st Jhanna transforms your whole perspective.

 

It's similar to what Dwai talks about - you realise your true nature and it feels like you finally see the truth and the magnificence of reality. You sense the interconnectedness of all things... the 'simplicity' of it makes everything seem funny - the big cosmic joke... "I've been running around trying to 'get' all these things - completely blind to the fact that I always had everything all along - and it's the running around and trying that stood in the way of me realising that" - and discovering this is absolutely hilarious (at least was for me ).

 

That's the bliss stage. It's marked by certain internal experiences - including a deep inner rumbling sound - like a mild earthquake or a thunder rumbling in the distance. My teacher treads carefully here because it's fraught with pitfalls... This is where many students leave because they think that the path is complete. From this perspective, it's laughable to think that there's 'more'. Another pitfall is following the bliss and allowing it to manifest in the body as a kind of 'internal cosmic orgasm'. The rolling thunder sound is the sound of your energy body vibrating... you can follow this vibration into a sort of climax and effectively ejaculate qi from your energy body - not a good idea if spiritual development is one's aim.

 

This stage can be an experience lasting a day or some months or even some years... If one has developed their energy body correctly, then there's 'space' for this to become a permanent transformation. If one hasn't got it quite right then you just fuel the experience until the fuel runs out and you're back to square one. With correct Ming development, the experience normalises and the bliss fades into a sort of deep inner ease. Sitting practice at this stage allows certain types of insight to arise and unfold spontaneously.

 

The next stage is achieved by letting go further - shedding the bliss stage into a deeper state. This is characterised by some specific 'nimitta' signs arising internally... and as I mentioned to Silent Thunder - the thunderstrike of Ling... which is visible to others...

 

The next stage is apparently very difficult for most because you lose all emotional colour. Meaning emotions stop... internal dialogue completely stops. Which sounds nice, but apparently is very difficult... no more pain - but also no more pleasure... no more anger - but also no more passion... you look at your kids and you feel nothing more for them than for the entire universe... Another stage fraught with pitfalls.

 

And so on... 8 to 9 stages... With many mini-stages in between.

[Miffymog]

Ha ha, it’s that time again (curiously enough – 3:30pm on a Tuesday afternoon) when I’ve had a couple of drinks and find myself ready to spill my thoughts on to the page / internet forum.

 

This is a great thread and I’m loving reading it.

 

Sorry Freeform but, due to my past experiences I’m tending towards Dwai’s point of view rather than yours...  although I really appreciate the back and forwards between the two of you and it’s giving me lots of food for thought which I really enjoy using to evaluate my own point of view.

 

So – when a Daoist says that enlightenment is just the first step / opens the door on the path, this is fairly similar to a Buddhist point of view. And from a rational point of view, but from some one who has clearly never experienced anything like this, it all makes sense.

 

I’m quite happy to accept that a first taste of enlightenment is felt on the cushion, and that experiencing this in a waking / normal state is a ‘higher’ / further state.

 

But!!!  if you experience this state and find yourself enjoying this / addicted to this state - I just can’t understand how you can call this enlightenment if there is clearly some trace of ego left that is getting addicted to this state.

 

In this Daoist path, it might mean you have opened up all your channels and have lost all animosity - which is clearly really good – and is a nice stepping stone towards the goal of becoming one with the Tao, but how can this be enlightenment.

 

There are numerous stages / levels in Buddhist enlightenment, and that they may well over lap with many of the Daoist ones. However, I’ve got to come back to my belief of what a spiritual path is - and it begins and ends with virtue and a spiritual practice should just add to this.

Edited February 25, 2020 by Miffymog
too many smiles :) so I removed some :)

[dwai]

13 hours ago, Creation said:

 

dwai, to clarify you position in this, it seems like there are no stages in what you are referring to.  You either get that "You are that" or you don't.  Are there stages or a progression in this?  Even getting in for an interval and shifting out of it vs. a permanent shift? And, bracketing transformation of the physical body, what of emotions when you get it?  Some Vedantic teachers I have heard emphasize that desire and anger will completely disappear when you get it, others say it will still arise but you there won't be any identification with it and hence no suffering.  This would seem to have relevance to the question of bodily transformation, since arising of emotion is very much rooted in the physical body.

Pretty much that way. “Getting it” is not an intellectual thing — which many do, it doesn’t take much effort.
 

The “getting it” is a permanent shift in perspective. When it happens it is very profound initially — literally everything changes wrt our relationship with our “personalities/body/mind” and also the world. 
 

The Advaita Vedantic traditional method is essentially work on the consciousness level. Preliminary/preparatory work needs to have already been done, the mind (the tool used for the practice) needs to be clear and settled.  
 

The seeker first discovers the emptiness of phenomena (though they don’t term it as such — they call it mithya or unreal). When it is realized that all phenomena (objects and the changes they go through) are inherently empty, the seeker then realizes that there is “something” that is unchanging, always present through all the experiences - it is that which witnesses all phenomena. 
 

After remaining in that “witness” mode (how long depends on the karma of the seeker), all emotional and mental patterns are recognized and negated as ephemeral, therefore unreal as well. They become like clouds in the sky, or waves in an ocean. 
 

Then that “click” happens, when it becomes directly known that all phenomena only rise and fall in that unchanging knower, nothing is apart from it. 
 

Like a necklace, bracelet and ring are all made up of gold in different names, forms and functions, the phenomena too are nothing but names, forms and functions of that nondual consciousness/awareness. 
 

Phenomena will continue to appear and disappear, the nondual awareness is unaffected. Clouds come and go but the sky is unaffected.

 

When “everything” is never apart from that “true nature”,  who and what needs to transform? 
 

The ‘seeker’ was none other than True nature, seeking itself from 

behind the veil of “separateness” of body,  mind and experiences.  

That which identified itself as “I am the seeker” turns out to be simply a story based on memories and impressions, inside and made up of true nature through and through. 

What remains is not that personality anymore — but simply true nature. All action in the ‘world’ then is simply action, without any sense of doership  This true nature might appear to be a separate mind-body unit to those other mind-body units who have not yet realized their true nature. 
 

That’s why when awakening happens, true nature sees only true nature in everything and everyone. 
 

wrt the blissful stages — bliss can rise at the point when one has full access to their causal sheath (Normally it is only accessible via deep sleep). There is a reason why that causal sheath is called the “anandamaya kosha” - blissful layer/sheath. 

There is definitely a sense of release that arises from the permanent shift, but I won’t call it “bliss” per se. It is more a release from the “burden of the personality/body/mind story”. 
 

There are those though who fully awakened still are intermittently disturbed by the activities of in the  world. That is because they did have the permanent shift,  but not enough preparatory work has been done. More karma has to be released/burnt. For them, more work needs to happen (hence transformation). But that too dissipates much like bubbles fizz out in a bottle of soda with enough time. 

 

13 hours ago, Creation said:

Something that seemed relevant to bring up is the example of the Buddhist Pali Canon, which has particularly simple and clear yet comprehensive models of the enlightenment process.  In the first stage of enlightenment, roughly speaking, your sense of separate self drops out completely,  and this guarantees you complete enlightenment after some number of lifetimes, but if you don't get further this number will be more than one, because anger and desire, which are causes for physical rebirth, still arise in your experience.  At the third stage, anger and desire drop out completely, and you will be reborn only one more time, in a celestial pure abode to work out any remaining attachment to subtle individuated existence.  The fourth stage, then, is total liberation.

[Geof Nanto]

A note on conditioning..... 

 

Keep in mind that all knowledge down to our use of words is conditioning. That includes all Daoist, Vedanta and Buddhist theory, for instance. That’s why I make the distinction between unhelpful and helpful conditioning. I wrote some more about it here.

 

@freeform
 

You write with great clarity and I very much appreciate your input here. I respect your experience, your knowledge of theory and your obvious sincerity.  Although I deeply relate to what you're about as a practitioner,  the reason I haven’t been adding “Likes” to your posts is that although my path is also an alchemical one, it’s runs a markedly different course from yours. (I write this for my own clarity and for the benefit of those who may think that these well trodden and well articulated paths, such as you, Dwai and others write about are only true ones.)   For instance, relevant to this discussion, I have no notion of formal stages or of where my life is heading. How my path unfolds for me is a great mystery that reveals itself in its own way over time.  I believe everyone must ultimately find their own unique path and that all true enlightenments are individually shaped. That why I like these simple observations.....

 

“On the path there are two rules only: Begin. Continue.” 

 

“Anything can be a path, even a demon. Anything can be a demon, even a path.” 

Hence, I don’t think any of these details concerning the rights and wrongs of paths and where they ultimately lead us really matter, other than to gives us some transitory guidance and to help anchor our human consciousness.  The more I observe myself and other people, the more I accept that we are all where we need to be. We all gravitate towards our own best path. My path is the the best one for me. Your path is the best one for you. For those who practice with sincere intent, Spirit guides us whether we’re aware of it or not.  
 

[Bindi]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Pretty much that way. “Getting it” is not an intellectual thing — which many do, it doesn’t take much effort.
 

The “getting it” is a permanent shift in perspective. When it happens it is very profound initially — literally everything changes wrt our relationship with our “personalities/body/mind” and also the world. 
 

The Advaita Vedantic traditional method is essentially work on the consciousness level. Preliminary/preparatory work needs to have already been done, the mind (the tool used for the practice) needs to be clear and settled.  
 

The seeker first discovers the emptiness of phenomena (though they don’t term it as such — they call it mithya or unreal). When it is realized that all phenomena (objects and the changes they go through) are inherently empty, the seeker then realizes that there is “something” that is unchanging, always present through all the experiences - it is that which witnesses all phenomena. 
 

After remaining in that “witness” mode (how long depends on the karma of the seeker), all emotional and mental patterns are recognized and negated as ephemeral, therefore unreal as well. They become like clouds in the sky, or waves in an ocean. 

 

When people negate emotions, this is the essence of negating the ‘earth’, negating yin, and spiritual bypassing. 
 

A spiritual bypass or spiritual bypassing is a "tendency to use spiritual ideas and practices to sidestep or avoid facing unresolved emotional issues, psychological wounds, and unfinished developmental tasks". 

 

Emotional issues are painful, opening up the emotional channel is hard work, easier to just see all emotions as unreal, and justify it as advanced spirituality. 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Then that “click” happens, when it becomes directly known that all phenomena only rise and fall in that unchanging knower, nothing is apart from it. 
 

Like a necklace, bracelet and ring are all made up of gold in different names, forms and functions, the phenomena too are nothing but names, forms and functions of that nondual consciousness/awareness. 
 

Phenomena will continue to appear and disappear, the nondual awareness is unaffected. Clouds come and go but the sky is unaffected.

 

When “everything” is never apart from that “true nature”,  who and what needs to transform? 
 

The ‘seeker’ was none other than True nature, seeking itself from 

behind the veil of “separateness” of body,  mind and experiences.  

That which identified itself as “I am the seeker” turns out to be simply a story based on memories and impressions, inside and made up of true nature through and through. 

What remains is not that personality anymore — but simply true nature. All action in the ‘world’ then is simply action, without any sense of doership  This true nature might appear to be a separate mind-body unit to those other mind-body units who have not yet realized their true nature. 
 

That’s why when awakening happens, true nature sees only true nature in everything and everyone. 
 

wrt the blissful stages — bliss can rise at the point when one has full access to their causal sheath (Normally it is only accessible via deep sleep). There is a reason why that causal sheath is called the “anandamaya kosha” - blissful layer/sheath. 

There is definitely a sense of release that arises from the permanent shift, but I won’t call it “bliss” per se. It is more a release from the “burden of the personality/body/mind story”. 
 

There are those though who fully awakened still are intermittently disturbed by the activities of in the  world. That is because they did have the permanent shift,  but not enough preparatory work has been done. More karma has to be released/burnt. For them, more work needs to happen (hence transformation). But that too dissipates much like bubbles fizz out in a bottle of soda with enough time. 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

13 hours ago, freeform said:

 

The next stage is apparently very difficult for most because you lose all emotional colour. Meaning emotions stop... internal dialogue completely stops. Which sounds nice, but apparently is very difficult... no more pain - but also no more pleasure... no more anger - but also no more passion... you look at your kids and you feel nothing more for them than for the entire universe... Another stage fraught with pitfalls.

 

 

Really?  Because this doesn´t sound remotely positive.  I know I don´t need to worry about this now -- and likely never -- but if this is where the bus is heading, let me off now.