Zhuangzi commentaries

[SirPalomides]

I’ve started reading Brook Ziporyn’s edition of Zhuangzi, with selections from traditional commentaries, and the selections are really brilliant. I’ve always loved Zhuangzi but this makes the reading more enjoyable.

 

From Wang Fuzhi’s commentary on Zhuangzi, chapter 1:

“For us forms lodged here between heaven and earth there is only this wandering, this play, and nothing besides. It makes no difference how large or small: each stops only where it finds itself. Going forth but without any plan, coming back but not to any dwelling place—this is what it means to be free of dependence: not leaning on things to establish some identity for oneself, not leaning on projects to establish some merit for oneself, not leaning on actualities to establish some name for oneself. Large and small alike come to rest in the middle of Heaven the Potter’s Wheel and thus each wanders far and unfettered. 'Unfettered' means echoing beyond the dissolving tones—forgetting what has passed. 'Far' means pulled into the distance — not limited to the understanding consciousness. Hence, the theories of things can be made equal, the ruling force of life nourished, the physical form forgotten but its Virtuosity fulfilled, the world entered but its harm kept at bay, things responded to in a manner worthy of a true sovereign so that the empire comes to order. All are ways of attunement with the great source, forgetting both life and death. All can be wandered in — indeed, all are nothing but this wandering.”

[lrn2livorlive2lrn]

wang fuzhi understanding and my understanding of what zhuangzi was saying are pretty congruent. Good to know

 

I wish humans default to the way, but we seem to be natural dao obscurers/complicators

[Mig]

On 12/1/2019 at 9:44 AM, lrn2livorlive2lrn said:

wang fuzhi understanding and my understanding of what zhuangzi was saying are pretty congruent. Good to know

 

I wish humans default to the way, but we seem to be natural dao obscurers/complicators

I remember telling my young kids, don't make it complicated, it is already complicated, but for whatever reasons, it was always complicated. I guess discipline, learning the hard way and education are always necessary. My $0.02

[whocoulditbe?]

At some point I need to read the commentary by Guo Xiang (the guy who redacted the current version of the Zhuangzi). There's a translation by Richard John Lynn.

[Mig]

On 7/30/2023 at 5:51 AM, whocoulditbe? said:

At some point I need to read the commentary by Guo Xiang (the guy who redacted the current version of the Zhuangzi). There's a translation by Richard John Lynn.

Why 郭象: Guō Xiàng commentary is important to read and understand 

莊 子 Zhuang zi? Aren't most of the translations based on his commentary? 

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, Mig said:

Aren't most of the translations based on his commentary? 

no, none of them are based on his commentary. all of them are based on ZZ itself in Guo's redaction 

8 hours ago, Mig said:

Why 郭象: Guō Xiàng commentary is important to read and understand 莊 子 Zhuang zi?

it is not important per se. the only reason why it could be somewhat interesting is that Guo butchered ZZ from 50 to 30 chapters, so peeps read Guo trying to guess what is it that he cut out. Otherwise his commentary is meaningless paraphrasing of ZZ

[Mig]

18 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

no, none of them are based on his commentary. all of them are based on ZZ itself in Guo's redaction 

it is not important per se. the only reason why it could be somewhat interesting is that Guo butchered ZZ from 50 to 30 chapters, so peeps read Guo trying to guess what is it that he cut out. Otherwise his commentary is meaningless paraphrasing of ZZ

So tell me, all the translations we read all over, the Watson, Graham, Meir, Féng yǒu lán 冯友兰, etc., are those translations directly from the original, whatever is consider original, or shall we read by commentaries as the one Ziporyn did? If I understand correctly, one has to read each chapter and try to make sense with the way of thinking and the way it is understood today by whichever arbitrary comment. Or is there something else I am missing? It seems that in each story of each chapter there is more to ponder and understand and many thoughts are already in the Chinese mind as opposed to those who grew up thinking that death is a curse or that we are going to heaven or hell or if I hope I maybe reach my dream, etc.

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, Mig said:

So tell me, all the translations we read all over, the Watson, Graham, Meir, Féng yǒu lán 冯友兰, etc., are those translations directly from the original, whatever is consider original,

they are all from the original

3 hours ago, Mig said:

or shall we read by commentaries as the one Ziporyn did?

no, we should not. commentaries do not add anything to the original. you can read Guo's commentary in regular font and ZZ's original in bold here https://cup.columbia.edu/book/zhuangzi/9780231123877 as you see Guo is merely paraphrasing

3 hours ago, Mig said:

It seems that in each story of each chapter there is more to ponder and understand and many thoughts are already in the Chinese mind

no not really. what you see is what you get. its all there in black and white on the page. no Chinese mind necessary. if you formulate a question regarding a story i can answer it for you if you wish

4 hours ago, Mig said:

those who grew up thinking that death is a curse or that we are going to heaven or hell or if I hope I maybe reach my dream, etc.

this is what ZZ also thinks. but he also proposes a way to do something about those issues

[wandelaar]

https://www.google.nl/books/edition/Zhuangzi/sotIEAAAQBAJ?hl=nl&gbpv=1&dq=Zhuangzi++++A+New+Translation+of+the+Sayings+of+Master+Zhuang+as+Interpreted+by+Guo+Xiang&printsec=frontcover

[Cobie]

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… commentaries do not add anything to the original. …

Exactly. 

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… no Chinese mind necessary. …

Exactly. 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

 

12 hours ago, Mig said:

… the Chinese mind as opposed to those who grew up thinking that death is a curse or that we are going to heaven or hell or if I hope I maybe reach my dream, etc.

 

Lol, “ the Chinese mind”  versus those who grew up thinking that: 

- “death is a curse”. Sure, that’s why the Chinese looove using the character 四 (sarcasm alert).

- “heaven or hell”. Sorry to disappoint you but the Chinese also had/have the concepts heaven and hell.

- “reach my dream”. Sure, the Chinese are renowned for being slackers (sarcasm alert).

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Cobie

[Mig]

9 hours ago, wandelaar said:

https://www.google.nl/books/edition/Zhuangzi/sotIEAAAQBAJ?hl=nl&gbpv=1&dq=Zhuangzi++++A+New+Translation+of+the+Sayings+of+Master+Zhuang+as+Interpreted+by+Guo+Xiang&printsec=frontcover

Thanks for sharing. Do you have any feedback reading his translation and do you see any difference if you have read Watson or Mair?

[wandelaar]

2 minutes ago, Mig said:

Thanks for sharing. Do you have any feedback reading his translation and do you see any difference if you have read Watson or Mair?

 

I don't have Lynn's translation yet, but I may well buy it. As you can see on Google Books the translation is preceded by an extended introduction. I think knowing the cultural background of a text (particularly when it's a very old text) is essential for understanding, so the introduction might well be worth reading. But at the moment I just don't know if reading the book as a whole is worth the effort. Maybe later.

[Mig]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

they are all from the original

no, we should not. commentaries do not add anything to the original. you can read Guo's commentary in regular font and ZZ's original in bold here https://cup.columbia.edu/book/zhuangzi/9780231123877 as you see Guo is merely paraphrasing

no not really. what you see is what you get. its all there in black and white on the page. no Chinese mind necessary. if you formulate a question regarding a story i can answer it for you if you wish

this is what ZZ also thinks. but he also proposes a way to do something about those issues

Alors là, tu m'épates , sacré Jean-Paul, what ZZ proposes?

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Mig said:

Alors là, tu m'épates , sacré Jean-Paul, what ZZ proposes?

to be useless, of course

to take it easy

[Mig]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

to be useless, of course

to take it easy

The link for to take it easy is highlighted "wife", is that correct?

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Mig said:

The link for to take it easy is highlighted "wife", is that correct?

that is exactly correct. the lesson to be learned from it is still 'taking it easy' tho

i used wife simply to find stories about family life as most relatable to all of us

Edited December 11, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[Cobie]

11 hours ago, Mig said:

… what ZZ proposes?

metempsychosis

[Mig]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:24 AM, Taoist Texts said:

 

On 12/10/2023 at 1:24 AM, Taoist Texts said:

 

On 12/10/2023 at 1:24 AM, Taoist Texts said:

they are all from the original

no, we should not. commentaries do not add anything to the original. you can read Guo's commentary in regular font and ZZ's original in bold here https://cup.columbia.edu/book/zhuangzi/9780231123877 as you see Guo is merely paraphrasing

no not really. what you see is what you get. its all there in black and white on the page. no Chinese mind necessary. if you formulate a question regarding a story i can answer it for you if you wish

this is what ZZ also thinks. but he also proposes a way to do something about those issues

Let me see if I understand correctly. I started reading ZZ ch 6. 1

古之真人，其寢不夢，其覺無憂，其食不甘，其息深深。真人之息以踵，眾人之息以喉。屈服者，其嗌言若哇。其耆欲深者，其天機淺。

The True men of old did not dream when they slept, had no anxiety when they awoke, and did not care that their food should be pleasant. Their breathing came deep and silently. The breathing of the true man comes (even) from his heels, while men generally breathe (only) from their throats. When men are defeated in argument, their words come from their gullets as if they were vomiting. Where lusts and desires are deep, the springs of the Heavenly are shallow. Legge translation

So, I am a regular Joe who likes to read stuff here and there and when I read this I understand each word and each sentence in English and I can see the original is about the same except that was classical Chinese. But wait, I read breath from his heels, WTH is he talking about? Then I checked one of the postings here in this site and I started reading all kind of stuff, some are made up by each contributor others trying to follow some tradition, but come on, the original text in itself doesn't tell me that much. So how I am supposed to understand the text in this specific section of this chapter? how it can possible 真人之息以踵 or is there a reference what it meant by the heel? I tried to imagine that but I don't see a physical evidence that can show me that is possible. I have tried breathing from the navel and yes, I can feel warmth through my knees and feel the warmth of my circulation on my feet. As you can see, I still don't understand what I read is what I get because I don't get it. Or maybe I am out of the target or I don't belong to those bright minds in their selective circle, who knows!

[Taoist Texts]

49 minutes ago, Mig said:

Their breathing came deep and silently. The breathing of the true man comes (even) from his heels

 

50 minutes ago, Mig said:

I tried to imagine that but I don't see a physical evidence that can show me that is possible. I have tried breathing from the navel and yes, I can feel warmth through my knees and feel the warmth of my circulation on my feet. As you can see, I still don't understand what I read

lets say a reader does not know anything about china or any kind of breath exercise. the sentence will inform him: 'real men always breath deep as if their breath comes from their heels up'. a reasonable reader will understand this sentence to a t. he will need no evidence nor experience nor explanation.  he will surmise: 'deep calm breath=good'. thats what ZZ says and there is nothing more to it.

 

now if you personally want to imitate the real men or to learn about ancient chinese culture and so on, you may do more research. but no research is necessary to understand ZZ for a reasonable average reader.

[Mig]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:52 PM, wandelaar said:

 

I don't have Lynn's translation yet, but I may well buy it. As you can see on Google Books the translation is preceded by an extended introduction. I think knowing the cultural background of a text (particularly when it's a very old text) is essential for understanding, so the introduction might well be worth reading. But at the moment I just don't know if reading the book as a whole is worth the effort. Maybe later.

I've just got mine and already I am very satisfied with the few pages I have read and compared with other notes. I highly recommend it and I am not sure why is not as popular as others as Watson. Thanks for sharing

[Mig]

On 12/12/2023 at 12:06 PM, Taoist Texts said:

 

lets say a reader does not know anything about china or any kind of breath exercise. the sentence will inform him: 'real men always breath deep as if their breath comes from their heels up'. a reasonable reader will understand this sentence to a t. he will need no evidence nor experience nor explanation.  he will surmise: 'deep calm breath=good'. thats what ZZ says and there is nothing more to it.

 

now if you personally want to imitate the real men or to learn about ancient chinese culture and so on, you may do more research. but no research is necessary to understand ZZ for a reasonable average reader.

I guess I understand better the sentence as the real person's breathing reaches down to their heels which makes sense if I breath using the dantian. It seems that is the practice developed from Daoists and Yogis traditions. More common in Taijiquan in their early writings.

[wandelaar]

On 12/14/2023 at 6:04 AM, Mig said:

I've just got mine and already I am very satisfied with the few pages I have read and compared with other notes. I highly recommend it and I am not sure why is not as popular as others as Watson. Thanks for sharing

 

The new translation by Lynn is from 2022. It takes time even for a good book to get well known.

[wandelaar]

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