Astrology and astral impermanence

[SirPalomides]

I raised this question on another thread, but thought that maybe it deserves its own. A lot of spiritual systems incorporate some astrology in their practice, with great importance placed on the cycles of the sun and moon as well as constellations and planets. They tend to be treated as eternal entities.

 

We also know that these astral bodies are not eternal, even if their life spans are considerably longer than what we encounter in our "sublunary" realm.

 

How does someone who makes use of astrology reconcile these viewpoints?

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

I raised this question on another thread, but thought that maybe it deserves its own. A lot of spiritual systems incorporate some astrology in their practice, with great importance placed on the cycles of the sun and moon as well as constellations and planets. They tend to be treated as eternal entities.

 

We also know that these astral bodies are not eternal, even if their life spans are considerably longer than what we encounter in our "sublunary" realm.

 

How does someone who makes use of astrology reconcile these viewpoints?

 

 

I think you need to clarify what these 'viewpoints' actually are . I had trouble understanding your post .

 

I dont understand why you say  Sun , Moon, Planets and constellations tend to be treated as 'eternal entities '. Who does this and why do they do this ?

 

I have made use of astrology in lots of systems , anything from biodynamic agriculture, through to ritual magic, self exploration and 'stellar yoga' , so I find the subject of  " spiritual systems incorporate some astrology in their practice " interesting. Yet, I have never encountered this concept of them  needing to be 'eternal' and yet not being eternal and that needing reconciling  .

[SirPalomides]

In Daoism, for instance, the Big Dipper and other stars are accorded great importance as the seats of gods- these deities are worshiped, dancing the pattern of the dipper is important in rituals, and meditations on the big dipper feature in some practices. Immortality is sometimes described in terms like "to age with the sun and moon."

 

In systems deriving from Hellenic philosophy- Aristotelianism, Neo-Platonism, etc.- the stars are likewise regarded as eternal. In the Aristotelian scheme we, who live in the sphere below the moon- the sublunary sphere- are in the realm of change, but the moon and everything above it are unchanging, moving in their fixed courses eternally.

 

And of course there's no shortage of sun and moon gods in various religions around the world.

Edited November 25, 2019 by SirPalomides

[rideforever]

Interesting question.
I have no doubt that astrology is functional, but there are other things in life as well ... for instance meditation and will seem to be independent of astrology. There are different channels of existence.  Perhaps there is a subconscious level of life which is affected by astrology and genetics which give you a basic self ... then there are higher (beyond this universe) worlds that we can accessed through other practices.
 

It is possible that what the celestial bodies represent to us is symbolic .. our entire environment is symbolic, meaning it is a representation in material objects of aspects within the mind-of-existence.  And the lifespan of the celestial bodies represents a very long-term subtle changing in the "mind of existence".  The universe slowly metamorphoses over time.  And I suppose astrology would also slowly change over time with practitioners changing their teachings accordingly.
 

I have read that in the past astrology and astronomy where one discipline because matter was not thought of as dead .. everything was considered alive and the effects of the celestial bodies like planets were considered to be factual and literal.  But somehow mankind has started to consider mater to be a dead thing and no longer feels the effects  ... and separated the living qualities of it into "spirituality", which is strange.
Mankind searches for a way to be "free" of everything, free of the celestis ... whether being "free" is possible, I don't know.

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:

In Daoism, for instance, the Big Dipper and other stars are accorded great importance as the seats of gods- these deities are worshiped, dancing the pattern of the dipper is important in rituals, and meditations on the big dipper feature in some practices. Immortality is sometimes described in terms like "to age with the sun and moon."

 

In systems deriving from Hellenic philosophy- Aristotelianism, Neo-Platonism, etc.- the stars are likewise regarded as eternal. In the Aristotelian scheme we, who live in the sphere below the moon- the sublunary sphere- are in the realm of change, but the moon and everything above it are unchanging, moving in their fixed courses eternally.

 

And of course there's no shortage of sun and moon gods in various religions around the world.

 

Okay thanks, I know little about such practices and ritual  in Daoism .    I am familiar with the general concept of 'eternal stars' and considered it  relative. Most of my systems have had to do with the mechanics , forces and energies of these systems - ie, if Mars is trine Pluto or the Moon is crossing the equator, it has great relevance  for now and the future  ..... but not for 'eternity' .

 

The concept of Daoism and change    and 'eternity'  seem at odds to me .

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, rideforever said:

Interesting question.
I have no doubt that astrology is functional, but there are other things in life as well ... for instance meditation and will seem to be independent of astrology. There are different channels of existence.  Perhaps there is a subconscious level of life which is affected by astrology and genetics which give you a basic self ... then there are higher (beyond this universe) worlds that we can accessed through other practices.

 

Astrology, regarding the 'construction of basic  self'  seems ' local  '  ( excepting modern astrology with its focus on constellations ) . 

 

The Stella Yoga I mentioned  goes beyond, as do other systems       but they are still in the celestial Sphere , not 'beyond the Universe .

 

 

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It is possible that what the celestial bodies represent to us is symbolic .. our entire environment is symbolic, meaning it is a representation in material objects of aspects within the mind-of-existence.  And the lifespan of the celestial bodies represents a very long-term subtle changing in the "mind of existence".  The universe slowly metamorphoses over time.  And I suppose astrology would also slowly change over time with practitioners changing their teachings accordingly.

 

Certainly , astrology changing over time.   Not just theory and application, but also mechanics in observation with equinoctial , planetary and lunisolar precession.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession

 

 

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I have read that in the past astrology and astronomy where one discipline because matter was not thought of as dead ..

 

? 

 

The reason seems more related to usage and definition and the advent of 'scientific method' .  The separation seems to have come about by some thinking that the movement of the stars does not effect the destiny of Man . Eg . Australian Aboriginal 'astrology' is now termed 'astronomy', because they used the movement of the stars ( any celestial body actually, planets sun and moon included ) to regulate and indicate food sources, movements,  breeding and  flowering and fruiting  times etc .   That can be understood by science  .

 

If it cant be understood by science , it is 'astrology' . 

 

 

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everything was considered alive and the effects of the celestial bodies like planets were considered to be factual and literal

 

I think it was more due to the old schema -  we are actually 'inside' all of these 'spheres ' (see post #3 para 2 )

 

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  But somehow mankind has started to consider mater to be a dead thing and no longer feels the effects  ... and separated the living qualities of it into "spirituality", which is strange.

 

I've never heard that before , that   the life in some matter  is considered 'spiritual' .  Matter with life is considered 'life'  and matter without life is considered matter .   The tracking of the changes in these concepts over time, IMO is best done by observing  considerations of what people considered 'real ' .

 

In the past,yes,  some people (and some still today) consider all  FORMS of matter (  mineral veg animal ) 'alive '  but things we  consider today as  'spiritual' and/or 'imagination'  (not 'real') where considered 'real' in the past - the Gods, spirits, pixies and whatever formed part of reality. Then there was a division between 'hard tangible ' reality and the 'ideal' (  spiritual / imagination / intangible ) , for example , fear is a real thing, yet is not made of matter nor is it tangible  .  So we developed a 'bipolar' view of reality ,   which also has bad consequences .

 

Which is why I opt for a 3rd view of reality .  

 

http://www.harpur.org/PJCHdaimonicreality.htm

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Mankind searches for a way to be "free" of everything, free of the celestis ... whether being "free" is possible, I don't know.

 

 

Hard to be  'free' of something one is immersed in.   I think the idea is more one of being able to exert more control or understanding  of the forces  that effect us  rather than be free of them  .

 

 

.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Nungali

[rideforever]

@Nungali
What do you know about these things:
Why do planets affect us ?  If the are beings with large mass, are they like uncles of the Earth .. and affect us in the same way that our human uncles affect us ?  Which indicates that our family tree affects us far more than we think ... for instance the good or bad deeds of our ancestors descend into us ?
And why would it matter if Saturn was North or East when I am born ?  What difference would that make ?  Is it the position of planets in relation to each other (Saturn was close or far from Jupiter and when they are together that means war?) or is it in relation to the axis of the universe which would indicate a secondary relation ... our orientation at birth with the whole universe.
Another strange thing is full moon and new moon ... the difference is the amount of sunlight reflected ... but apart from the light the moon is really "just the same" ... why should the amount of sunlight reflected make such a difference ?
One answer is that the moon is symbolic and when it is full ... I am not sure how to explain ... but it's symbolic fullness is actual ... in other words the celestial objects are symbolic and actual at the same time.  In fact there is no such thing as a symbol because everything is real.  Fear is a real material phenomenon, just of a subtle type and people don't sense it well enough to feel it's materiality.  Likewise thoughts that we think are a type of matter, but we are not used to feeling their materiality ... we think they are non-material.
I propose that everything without exception is material, of many different levels of subtlety, and all matter is alive.
Another answer is that the light is not just "light", it is not a dead material phenomenon.  Light is alive, it seems to be a particular layer of consciousness, possibly the elementary particle of consciousness; or alternatively the direct emanation of "god".
There are a hell of a lot things happening that humans do not think about.

Earlier what I was referring to was that atoms and electrons are alive .. at a very low level, they have some "freewill" of extremely low character.  But as the build up into molecules, then into organic molecules, cells etc... they have developed over billions of years higher tiers of consciouness until finally you get plants animals people.  At certain points you have vast step-changes in level of consciousness.

This is what "as above so below means".

Edited November 26, 2019 by rideforever

[Nintendao]

Can a planet move a person, and vice versa? Yet both are only truly moved by the Dao. The planet just speaks the mind of the Dao more reliably. For fickleness on the part of a planet, would take too astronomical an amount of energy. Can learn a lot from planets.

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, rideforever said:

@Nungali
What do you know about these things:
Why do planets affect us ? 

 

I dont know      The reason people USED TO think they affected us was due to the earlier schema I and SirPalomedes referenced . Since the paradigm schema paradigm has changed , either people are at a loss to explain it  ( hence 'rays' , vibration and other general and obscure answers prevail ) or deny it .

 

 

 

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If the are beings with large mass, are they like uncles of the Earth

 

 

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.. and affect us in the same way that our human uncles affect us ?  Which indicates that our family tree affects us far more than we think ... for instance the good or bad deeds of our ancestors descend into us ?

 

I dont know about good and bad deeds but 'traits'  (both material and 'non material' ) certainly seem to be genetically passed on  genetically,. A lot is passed on genetically that we have just come to discover or are yet undiscovered .

 

Also, only certain of them , they can 'sleep' for  x generations then surface again.

 

This is all under question, personally,  at the moment though - it might apply to 'karma' and 'personality' and 'deeds'  (and things learnt ) as well .  Thing is  I am learning this from a local magpie  so  ......      wtf  ?

 

It might be tooooo wacky .  Then again, magpies do some wacky stuff 

 

 

 

 

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And why would it matter if Saturn was North or East when I am born ?  What difference would that make ?  Is it the position of planets in relation to each other (Saturn was close or far from Jupiter and when they are together that means war?)

 

It depends on where they are together as well .   Yes, early astrology, mostly was based on the angular relationship of the planets to each other and the houses .  The first house (on your local horizon ) was deemed important  and this passed on to the modern fascination and import with the rising 'sign' .  Later the constellations gained more importance  and later still in modern times, the fixation on the Sun and which  sign   ( note; not ' which constellation) it was in - made popular by a well published astrologer that happened to be a Leo .

 

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or is it in relation to the axis of the universe which would indicate a secondary relation ... our orientation at birth with the whole universe.

 

To use that a system would have to know about the axis of the Universe first .

 

 

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Another strange thing is full moon and new moon ... the difference is the amount of sunlight reflected ... but apart from the light the moon is really "just the same" ... why should the amount of sunlight reflected make such a difference ?

 

Angular relationship between the Sun and Moon and the Moon's position in relation to the earth , not just the amount of sunlight reflected .

 

The real mystery here is , how does nature detect it for its response to it ?   Eg check a solunar calender -  fishermen use them to catch fish;  fish prefer to feed when the Moon is  on horizon, overhead and most favourite 'underfoot'  ( the 'midnight of the Moon )  and when the Sun is also on one of those Quarters . This will always happen when the Moon and Sun are in a specific relationship .

 

Thing is,  the fish in my fish tank inside react to it ; in the middle of the day or night . Pet crayfish offered the prime example ; wave food in his face and he would flee from it, if Moon was underfoot (and especially at Dawn and sunset ) he would tear it apart and gobble it, try to escape, go walkabout  .  . . . .

 

 

 

 

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One answer is that the moon is symbolic and when it is full ... I am not sure how to explain ... but it's symbolic fullness is actual ... in other words the celestial objects are symbolic and actual at the same time.  In fact there is no such thing as a symbol because everything is real.  Fear is a real material phenomenon, just of a subtle type and people don't sense it well enough to feel it's materiality.  Likewise thoughts that we think are a type of matter, but we are not used to feeling their materiality ... we think they are non-material.
I propose that everything without exception is material, of many different levels of subtlety, and all matter is alive.
Another answer is that the light is not just "light", it is not a dead material phenomenon.  Light is alive, it seems to be a particular layer of consciousness, possibly the elementary particle of consciousness; or alternatively the direct emanation of "god".
There are a hell of a lot things happening that humans do not think about.

 

I suppose 'life' is a word one could use . I prefer 'vibration'  .  ' God' is emanated vibration .

 

 

The Speech in the Silence.

The Words against the Son of Night.

The Voice of Mercury in the Universe in the Presence of the Eternal Gods.

The Formulas of Knowledge.

The Wisdom of Breath.

The Radix of Vibration.

The Shaking of the Invisible.

The Rolling Asunder of the Darkness.

The Becoming Visible of Matter.

The Piercing of the Coils of the Stooping Dragon.

The Breaking Forth of the Light.

 

 

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Earlier what I was referring to was that atoms and electrons are alive .. at a very low level, they have some "freewill" of extremely low character.  But as the build up into molecules, then into organic molecules, cells etc... they have developed over billions of years higher tiers of consciouness until finally you get plants animals people.  At certain points you have vast step-changes in level of consciousness.

 

< shrug>  some shapes fit into other shapes .... and 'get used to it'  , before you know it they fit together into   little machines being constructed inside the cells  - a DNA  molecular machine factory   ..... literally !  ;

 

https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/nova/rnawondermolecule/v/proteinsynthesis

 

 

 

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This is what "as above so below means".

 

Its interesting to read the rest of that quote and what it refers to, although I do realise its hip nowadays to just quote the isolated fragment and give it all sorts of meanings .

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Nungali

[Everything]

When will people actually realise their true nature, which is eternal and infinite in being and becoming evermore here and now. 

For most people it, seems like, not untill die. 

Because they care so much about conditions, that they prevent themselves from realising those conditions. 

But if suffering is sufficient, then people will give up. And as they give up, and witness how every single condition in their life turns around "miraculously" then they know that they are one with the source of all these conditions. 

And then life can become fun as it has always already intended to be, anyway. 

So then from that point of view, you realise how and why you created all of these conditions. You remember their value. The value of all of these things you created. And then you can simply move on with your life, in your true eternal joyful being and becoming evermore effortlessly and joyfully here and now. All that you want to be do or have. Being and becoming evermore here and now. In full co-creative harmony and alignment with the ever expanding source of all being and becoming evermore here and now. 

[Nungali]

and what does that ^ have to do with the conversation here  ?

 

You keep posting the same thing over and over and over again in varied words and posts of varying lengths, regardless of the thread or subject at hand .

 

Its not really   'Everything'   its actually 'just one thing all the time '

 

maybe change your name to that ?

 

and also, why not just keep the above post on hand and  copy it so you can paste it in every time , that way you won't have to type it out  over and over and over again .

 

Same old New Age self assertive monologue  that we see all over  the internet  - get a bit original dude .

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Nungali

[Desmonddf]

Everything changes and nothing is eternal... at least on the level bellow non-duality.

 

Astrology touches on realms of non-duality and non-existence. The forces and planets are called "eternal", but they might very well be said to be so fleeting they never existed beyond a single moment in time.

 

That's the problem here: You'll see that those forces are "eternal" in the sense of being beyond reason, time and space - not that they are eternal in the sense of being permanent aspects of the universe.

 

Studying the changes in the Earth and Skies, observing their characteristics and how they progress in more "earthly" time scales will take you away from Astrology and into Geomancy (or Hindu Astrology). Both complement each other quite well, if you can deal with the conflicting social/mental vines trying to take over your mind from studing those subjects