Theory by Bruce Lee

[welkin]

Why were non of the ideas argued again.

 

I just don't get it.

[welkin]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

(quote edited slightly for clarity)

 

This is correct.

 

Bruce got his philosophical wisdoms from Mr. Yueng, which he was parroting, which is not wisdom.

 

Mr. Yueng told me several times: "Take the best from each system and leave the rest"

 

What's your opinion on that Starjumper? "Take the best from each system and leave the rest"

 

I wouldn't say Bruce Lee wasn't wise though. Just listening one can know.

 

Edit: Nvm i think you did state your opinion.

 

Would you agree with the testing aspects? It's not quite as obvious as it may seem right? It's a tricky process to figure out truths.

Edited November 26, 2019 by welkin

[welkin]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Saddle up, Welkin!

 

Why does what you say invalidate my ideas?

 

All you're claiming is, "don't listen to that guy." Is that not all you're doing?

Edited November 26, 2019 by welkin

[welkin]

1 hour ago, moment said:

Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they're not given the special favors or admiration they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships unfulfilling, and others may not enjoy being around them.

 

 

I agree with you.

 

Thanks for making me aware of this. I do struggle with it.

 

The beauty of life is that we're all human, and therefore should not be judged only by how we may appear sometimes based off emotions. As sometimes it gets in the way of the main message.

 

That being said, i don't believe i created that type of energy in this specific thread, which seems that you are accusing me of.

 

So thank you for that.

 

This was a good Moment of thought

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by welkin

[Earl Grey]

1 minute ago, welkin said:

 

Why does what you say invalidate my ideas?

 

All you're claiming is, "don't listen to that guy." Is that not all you're doing?

 

You've got a choice: actually seek to learn and understand, or keep making things up as you go along. You will then see what you will be able to do or how far you can get with whichever decision you decide to commit yourself to then.

 

Until then, none of what you say has much merit to it both as an argument itself and as a demonstration of skill and understanding, especially when you are essentially declaring yourself to be proud of not having studied what you talk about (let alone read the TTC and understood it) and telling those who have studied and have their own understanding of it that they don't know anything. 

[welkin]

8 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

You've got a choice: actually seek to learn and understand, or keep making things up as you go along. You will then see what you will be able to do or how far you can get with whichever decision you decide to commit yourself to then.

 

Until then, none of what you say has much merit to it both as an argument itself and as a demonstration of skill and understanding, especially when you are essentially declaring yourself to be proud of not having studied what you talk about (let alone read the TTC and understood it) and telling those who have studied and have their own understanding of it that they don't know anything. 

 

I actually study a lot. Probably more than you currently at least. Which i don't take pride in. I'm just simply letting you know the truth.

 

Someone close to me told me, "why do you sell yourself short in telling them that you don't read if it's not true".

 

The truth is i do read. I just don't remember things in the same manner other people do to explain it as if i remember the text how it is written. Because that means you don't understand it. You simply memorized it.

 

I understand it and decipher it in a strange unconscious way, but then try to explain it in a more utilizable sense after deciphering. Because the meaning of the texts have way more meaning than just interpreting letters and words with the logical mind.

 

Which is what i first off, criticized you for. Yet you are turning the criticism on to me. I just don't know why. if it's not true.

 

But don't worry, i'm reading the Tao right now. And i agree with a lot  of it so far.

 

And yet, my ideas don't get argued.......

 

I guess a human didn't write the Tao huh. Therefore no one else could come up with similar ideas. And yet, to counter that there are similar ideas in practically every ancient teaching out there.

 

And as for your last statement. Can  anyone tell me when i said that "they don't know anything"?

 

You are literally putting words in my mouth...

 

Again,

 

What idea do you disagree with???

 

 

Also, just to clarify. I'm not categorizing everyone in the forum by anything. It's a specific group in here, you included that i don't know why but i get the feeling of a lot of deception. But i think it's really ego more than deception. it's deception as a result of ego.

 

Just saying....

 

 

 

Also not to be petty like you, and your little gangbanger crew.

 

And also not meaning to include Starjumper in this. But you will be disagreeing with him, in case he does agree with some of my ideas.

 

Which is okay too . Just saying your gangmember crew seems to be the only ones policing and disagreeing.

Edited November 26, 2019 by welkin

[Starjumper]

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

 

What's your opinion on that Starjumper? "Take the best from each system and leave the rest"

 

I wouldn't say Bruce Lee wasn't wise though. Just listening one can know.

 

Edit: Nvm i think you did state your opinion.

 

Would you agree with the testing aspects? It's not quite as obvious as it may seem right? It's a tricky process to figure out truths.

 

Bruce was very smart, and wise in a way, however wisdom usually comes with age and experience, which he didn't get to experience.  It  takes a pure heart to discern wisdom and he did have that.

 

I was just saying that those who repeat wisdom are not necessarily wise, although it does take some wisdom for people to appreciate the truth of what they hear.

 

Definitely agree on the testing aspects, it is the only way to discover what is useful or not, in addition, like you said, it requires much experience to know what is useful.  It takes an open mind to test one's methods, and a pure heart to accept the results of the tests.  Both seem quite rare around here.

[Earl Grey]

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

I actually study a lot.

 

"By the fruits ye shall be known" and what you have shown is that what you study is as important as how much you study, in addition to how well you understand.

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

Which i don't take pride in.

 

You sure seem to show it in a lot of your other posts such as over in this thread. 

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

I'm just simply letting you know the truth.

 

Your truth, not mine, or reality itself.

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

Someone close to me told me, "why do you sell yourself short in telling them that you don't read if it's not true".

 

The truth is i do read. I just don't remember things in the same manner other people do to explain it as if i remember the text how it is written. Because that means you don't understand it. You simply memorized it.

 

I understand it and decipher it in a strange unconscious way, but then try to explain it in a more utilizable sense after deciphering. Because the meaning of the texts have way more meaning than just interpreting letters and words with the logical mind.

 

Doesn't seem like you understand what you've read at all, given how much you go by the reduction to absurdity fallacy. 

 

You can read books and have your own interpretation, but your interpretation must have reasoning that does not betray the meaning of the text or what is being said, especially if you represent it as what is being said when it is not what is said. Look at the arguments for gun ownership and control in the United States now and how they both look at the language of the constitution but interpret the context their own way. Look at why we pay lawyers to read the law books and interpret for us...

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

Which is what i first off, criticized you for. Yet you are turning the criticism on to me. I just don't know why. if it's not true.

 

 

No, you invaded a lot of threads and spread misinformation while passing yourself off as an authority and rejecting others and their experience when we had enough to back it up, which we didn't need to because the more you posted, the more you revealed how little you actually understand.

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

But don't worry, i'm reading the Tao right now. And i agree with a lot  of it so far.

 

 

Good, now read some more and understand more with the other translations. Don't forget Zhuangzi and the canon from other teachers who learned from calligraphy, martial arts, poetry, and even in related philosophies of China such as Confucianism (but NOT Neo-Confucianism, it is utter garbage) or Liezi and others. 

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

And yet, my ideas don't get argued.......

 

 

The OP was about heart of Tao. Yours was not about Tao but conjecture.

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

I guess a human didn't write the Tao huh. Therefore no one else could come up with similar ideas. And yet, to counter that there are similar ideas in practically every ancient teaching out there.

 

And as for your last statement. Can  anyone tell me when i said that "they don't know anything"?

 

Look in your old posts in case you have amnesia. 

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

You are literally putting words in my mouth...

 

 

Hmm you seem to forget that you were the one who did that but a couple days ago...and it wasn't the only time. I've only responded to what you did say.

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

Again,

 

What idea do you disagree with???

 

That none of what you said is Tao but you're insisting that it is Tao, which it isn't because it's your own conjecture. 

 

19 minutes ago, welkin said:

Also, just to clarify. I'm not categorizing everyone in the forum by anything. It's a specific group in here, you included that i don't know why but i get the feeling of a lot of deception. But i think it's really ego more than deception. it's deception as a result of ego.

 

Just saying....

 

 

Say less and think more.

 

21 minutes ago, welkin said:

Also not to be petty like you, and your little gangbanger crew.

 

Ah, grouping together me and others who seem to agree that you are a pest, but otherwise are not part of the same nakama because we are separate individuals with shared interests and manage to provide both informed and educated opinions while staying on topic and flow whereas you like to jump in and demand attention.

 

22 minutes ago, welkin said:

And also not meaning to include Starjumper in this. But you will be disagreeing with him, in case he does agree with some of my ideas.

 

The man can speak for himself just like I can speak for myself, so let him speak for himself if he wants to take it up with me. 

 

23 minutes ago, welkin said:

Which is okay too . Just saying your gangmember crew seems to be the only ones policing and disagreeing.

 

Normally, I'd say "Are you lonely? Are you looking for friends? Google is your friend." But apparently, you've been too friendly with Google with all the absurdities you like to use to fuel your non-sequitur statements. 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Earl Grey

[welkin]

4 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

Bruce was very smart, and wise in a way, however wisdom usually comes with age and experience, which he didn't get to experience.  It  takes a pure heart to discern wisdom and he did have that.

 

I was just saying that those who repeat wisdom are not necessarily wise, although it does take some wisdom for people to appreciate the truth of what they hear.

 

Definitely agree on the testing aspects, it is the only way to discover what is useful or not, in addition, like you said, it requires much experience to know what is useful.  It takes an open mind to test one's methods, and a pure heart to accept the results of the tests.  Both seem quite rare around here.

 

I can definitely see what you're saying. makes a lot a lot of sense.

 

Is a pure heart something that can be developed or is it something only those born with will have?

 

This is a big question i've had my whole life.

 

I feel like the potential will always be different. But one can develop a certain purity that would be further conducive to ones practice. As receptiveness opens up, and knowledge from the source comes in.

 

Just to clarify, i'm well aware pure hearts do cause harm and do wrong things. So for all those sensitive people out there who critcize and want to judge what that pure heart means. It's not as simple as looking at the words.

 

[welkin]

 

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

 

That none of what you said is Tao but you're insisting that it is Tao, which it isn't because it's your own conjecture. 

 

I'm sorry dude. I am going to say this in the kindest of ways.

 

You are a snake oil salessnake. I don't know how else to put it. I feel like you slither around with your ideas.

 

Why do you still not debate any ideas. you only criticize.

Edited November 26, 2019 by welkin

[Earl Grey]

4 minutes ago, welkin said:

 

 

I'm sorry dude. I am going to say this in the kindest of ways.

 

You are a snake oil salessnake. I don't know how else to put it. I feel like you slither around with your ideas.

 

Why do you still not debate any ideas. you only criticize.

 

 

 

 

[moment]

2 hours ago, welkin said:

 

I agree with you.

 

Thanks for making me aware of this. I do struggle with it.

 

The beauty of life is that we're all human, and therefore should not be judged only by how we may appear sometimes based off emotions. As sometimes it gets in the way of the main message.

 

That being said, i don't believe i created that type of energy in this specific thread, which seems that you are accusing me of.

 

So thank you for that.

 

This was a good Moment of thought

 

I have to be very careful here. 1.  What in my post would make you believe I was talking about you?  2.  Why would you think I was personally accusing you?  To be honest on point one; I did have you mostly in mind but, that is not the point of the point.:) On point two: It was not an accusation,  if you think about it for a second, I believe you will understand what I mean by that.

Having said all of that, your response was a surprise.  Kudos!  It was excellent.  Thank you

Edited November 26, 2019 by moment

[moment]

I think all Tai Chi people ( I more than most) sometimes forget we are Tai Chi players. Our lives in many ways are an extension of our Tai Chi and if it is no longer play--- we are doing something wrong!

[Starjumper]

On 11/26/2019 at 8:02 AM, welkin said:

What's your opinion on that Starjumper? "Take the best from each system and leave the rest"

 

Since Mr. Yueng had in depth exposure to many dozens of kinds of kung fu, and since he was smart, he naturally used the best for fighting, and it was very important, because he was sometimes the 'champion' of the opera, so he had to fight in many deadly duels.  When the Red Boat Opera got to a new city to perform they were required to have a match with the champion of the city.  If the city won then the opera had to pay txes, if the boat won then they didn't have to pay.  This was in addition to the opera being a cover for a troupe of assassins.

 

So you see, the testing was real, and practicality and survival depended on being clear as to what was most effective.  This is the philosophy that Mr. Yueng taught Bruce.  The opposite of this is some egomaniac who learns one competition/sporting art at the strip mall dojo, and believes it when he's told it's the best.

 

This concept of testing and using what is best also applied to our chi kung, and Mr. Yueng worked his way up to wizard/immortal, so he should know.  I find that no one here is looking for such things, when some  seeker joins the forum and asks for what is powerful the regulars refer him to someone who is 'popular', which makes good sense in a way..

 

Of course, in kung fu you can prove what's 'best' by beating people up, but it gets more complicated when it comes to spiritual paths.

 

I've seen popular wisdom quotes from Bruce, and they are all things that I heard from Mr. Yueng, so it is clear that Bruce's job was being Mr. Yueng's mouthpiece, not only of Taoist philosophy, but of kung fu, later it would also have been of chi kung, but he didn't make it to that so it's my job now ... to keep it hidden ... in a way.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Starjumper

[Rara]

Bruce was adding Daoist pinciples to martial arts and with that managed to save lots of time by not doing things that didn't work.

 

I don't think it's the be-all-end-all, but a good lesson to go back to when something you're doing isn't working out.

 

Aka, common sense.

 

That's a big part of Daoism. It's practical....

 

...hang on, isn't there a thread on that?

[Starjumper]

On 12/4/2019 at 4:38 PM, Rara said:

Bruce was adding Daoist pinciples to martial arts and with that managed to save lots of time by not doing things that didn't work.

 

Actually, the arts he was taught were Taoist martial arts which are all in close alignment with Taoist principles, so there was nothing to add, only to discern.

 

On 12/4/2019 at 4:38 PM, Rara said:

That's a big part of Daoism. It's practical....

 

[dawei]

On 11/25/2019 at 11:28 PM, Boundlesscostfairy said:

I have heard once the Great Master having said..:

 

Absorb what is useful

 

Neglect or discard what is not..

 

Is this the true heart of Daosim in a nutshell?

 

If you agree do you have any thoughts to add...? Like the ideas or concepts, structures that you find useful..on your quest to Find or continue the path of the Tao?

 

If you disagree that this is at the heart of Daoism..then what do you think is a simple truth that you think is universally true for a Daoist?

 

No.   Daoism is more about naturally flowing and residing with life.   Laozi gave more practical solutions to life but ZZ gave more detachment concepts.   A balanced understanding of Daoism (not daoist) is both of these views.   

 

On 11/26/2019 at 6:59 AM, Starjumper said:

(quote edited slightly for clarity)

 

This is correct.

 

Bruce got his philosophical wisdoms from Mr. Yueng, which he was parroting, which is not wisdom.

 

Mr. Yueng told me several times: "Take the best from each system and leave the rest"

 

Taking the best of each system comes from ancient Legalism and better in Huang-Lao philosophy.  

 

On 11/26/2019 at 8:26 AM, Starjumper said:

 

Bruce was very smart, and wise in a way, however wisdom usually comes with age and experience, which he didn't get to experience.  It  takes a pure heart to discern wisdom and he did have that.

 

I was just saying that those who repeat wisdom are not necessarily wise, although it does take some wisdom for people to appreciate the truth of what they hear.

 

Definitely agree on the testing aspects, it is the only way to discover what is useful or not, in addition, like you said, it requires much experience to know what is useful.  It takes an open mind to test one's methods, and a pure heart to accept the results of the tests.  Both seem quite rare around here.

 

3 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Actually, the arts he was taught were Taoist martial arts which are all in close alignment with Taoist principles, so there was nothing to add, only to discern.

 

 

 

I think these arguments are valid.   And I think that when one is engaged in intentional practices, you will find that wisdom tries to fit to that, though.   I do think BL tried to apply daoist concepts to martial arts and likely achieved a higher level martial arts that was trying to free the mind and "allow".   There is a mental aspect to anything we do but if we can "allow", "open" and "accept" outside of the walls we are told makes up such and such... we may find a more holistic concept.   

 

I think BL was brilliantly walking that path but the wisdom we normally ascribe is a practiced wisdom that he was cultivating in his life... that cut short didn't allow him (and us) to see what true wisdom could be applied.  

[Rara]

22 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Actually, the arts he was taught were Taoist martial arts which are all in close alignment with Taoist principles, so there was nothing to add, only to discern.

 

 

 

Not all, though....Ip Man Wing Chun then various other external martial arts. But I do understand he was heavily into internal martial arts, but not at first, no?

[Rara]

Also, let's not forget the time Bruce got his arse handed to him by Cliff Booth...

 

 

[Boundlesscostfairy]

So.. after this battle.. I've come to the conclusion that everything is percent based..

 

What I am saying is that there is not likely anything in existence that is 0% useful.. just that it may have a low percent of usefulness..

 

So we seek to find the place of everything and any thing.. and work and promote the things that are MORE useful!

[Rara]

9 hours ago, Boundlesscostfairy said:

So.. after this battle.. I've come to the conclusion that everything is percent based..

 

What I am saying is that there is not likely anything in existence that is 0% useful.. just that it may have a low percent of usefulness..

 

So we seek to find the place of everything and any thing.. and work and promote the things that are MORE useful!

 

Did you read the book of Zhuangzi?

 

Everything has a use. And even the useless can be useful if used in the right context

[Starjumper]

On 12/19/2019 at 8:58 PM, dawei said:

 I do think BL tried to apply daoist concepts to martial arts and likely achieved a higher level martial arts that was trying to free the mind and "allow".   There is a mental aspect to anything we do but if we can "allow", "open" and "accept" outside of the walls we are told makes up such and such... we may find a more holistic concept.   

 

I see what you mean now, at first I thought if it as being a question of:  'did he add the Taoist philosophy to his self defense for his own development?'  The answer to that is no (because it was already there).  However if the question is:  'did he add the Taoist philosophy to his self defense for educating the pubic?'   Then the answer is certainly yes.  

 

Concerning being open and 'allowing' and 'accepting' the thing you need to know is that the martial art he learned from Mr. Yueng has what is called ten thousand techniques.  It is where you test every conceivable variation of every conceivable method of every conceivable self defense scenario, to see what works best for you.  This type of learning is embedded in the system, so it was always there, nothing to add  

 

This is far and away the opposite of most martial arts, which are very limited in both techniques and scope.

 

On 12/20/2019 at 4:13 PM, Rara said:

Not all, though....Ip Man Wing Chun then various other external martial arts. But I do understand he was heavily into internal martial arts, but not at first, no?

 

The arts have internal aspects and external aspects.  I consider Wing Chun to be an internal martial art.  Maybe that's because I was exposed to the 'secret' methods of Red Boat Wing Chun, which is much more internal that the other styles of Wing Chun, and it was also considered to be the most effective.  I don't know what type of Wing Chun Ip Man was practicing, so I can't say how much the internal was accentuated in Bruce's training.  Often it is good to start youngsters with more external methods.

 

Yueng Chuan, which is what Mr. Yueng's martial art is now called, is just about the most internal of the arts, it is definitely more internal that tai chi or bagua, and it is founded on the ways of moving practiced in Tien Shan Chi Kung, which is one of the most internal of types of chi kung ... way more internal than many types of chi kung.  The most internal of the arts embody Taoist philosophy to the greatest extent.  ... In case anyone wonders how that applies ...

 

Anyway, Mr. Yueng told Bruce to go check out some other teachers of different types of martial arts in order to see what was out there and how he could learn to deal with it.  These were like little side attractions, and was while Bruce was still under the guidance of Mr. Yueng.

 

Mr. Yueng was a rather short and slender fellow, and he couldn't knock people out, but he had no need to, he could paralyze an attacker as soon as they moved if he wished.  He did say that westerm style boxing was the only way of fighting that would cause him some concern, because it was so effective.  He had a good plan to beat it though.  Bruce on the other hand, was bigger and stronger, and although he could also kill or maim someone in one second, like Mr. Yueng, he was fascinated with the idea of knocking people out so he worked on that.  Knocking people out is considered the 'ethical' way to end a fight in the West, and that's another reason he liked it.

 

Concerning internal vs. external, here's an example of how it can change in one system.  Although Bruce learned one of the most extensive and internal systems of self defense, which is what he based JKD on, what he taught as JKD looks very external.

 

On 12/19/2019 at 8:58 PM, dawei said:

I think BL was brilliantly walking that path but the wisdom we normally ascribe is a practiced wisdom that he was cultivating in his life... that cut short didn't allow him (and us) to see what true wisdom could be applied.  

 

In the Kung Fu TV series which Bruce engineered it shows the older blind master.  This was an attempt to present Mr. Yueng's ways and abilities to the West.  Mr. Yueng had the same type of knowing and 'seeing' things even with his eyes closed (Jedi stuff) and the kind of practical wisdom that the master portrays in the show.  They look and act really different though, Mr. Yueng sparkled with energy and radiated a joy which was contagious.  More fun that a barrel full of monkeys.

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

59 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

the martial art he learned from Mr. Yueng has what is called ten thousand techniques

 

I assume that some will have difficulty believing or comprehending this, so ...

 

This is similar to what @Stigweard said about Systema:  "How to get your ass handed to you a thousand different ways."

 

Curiously, The precursors of Systema, used to great effect by the Cossacks, originated in the Tien Shan Mountains.  Not coincidentally, the precursors of the Lost Tien Shan Chinese martial art, which now manifests as Yueng Chuan, also originated in the Tien Shan Mountains.  The precursors of Ninjitsu originated in Northwest China, which is the Tien Shan area.   Systema is a very internal art, and some of the masters of old developed Jedi Abilities.  Ninjitsu also has ten thousand ways to hand you your ass, has a strong internal basis, and some of the masters of old developed 'Jedi' abilities.  All the traditions mentioned, have, as their base,   1, not getting hit, and 2, ending a confrontation immediately with possible lethal outcome.  Doesn't work in the ring, which I assume some will have difficulty believing or comprehending.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Starjumper

[Toni]

Why doesn't it work in the ring?

[Starjumper]

Because in the ring you are supposed to stand toe to toe with someone and trade punches while having to throw out 99% of your techniques in order to satisfy the rules.

 

In the killing arts you avoid confrontation, and you suck(er) them in to committing to an aggressive attack (like lunging for you, which is rarely done in the ring where they stand toe to toe and play patty cake).  You sucker them in to a forward motion committed attack, which makes them sitting ducks.  You can do thousands of things to them as they sail by you and you step behind them, it just takes a second.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Starjumper