Women and Buddhahood

[Heartbreak]

On 25/03/2020 at 8:32 AM, ion said:

Do you understand? To be one a Buddha you first have to choose to become the lowest status human there is. This goes against the natural tendencies of a woman to achieve status.

 

With status there is greater access to resources so it is not so perplexing that the female of our species that bare the children would naturally desire higher status because in our species status =resources and resources equal security for offspring.

 

Buddha's time the people who where pious and virtuous in a past life were rewarded by reincarnating as wealthy powerful men. Buddha chose to be a beggar which meant he was a bad man in past life.

 

People in Buddha's time who sought to better themselves through sincere devotion to a spiritual path would grow their hair long as an indicator of that status.

 

Buddha shaved his head. As a beggar with a shaved head he was the lowest status male in all of existence and it showed he wasn't going to try to even change that status by devoting himself to spirituality (longhair).

 

That is something only a man is capable of doing on purpose.

Complete BS there are plenty of royalty politicians rich people who meditate.

 

How much money do you need to become aware enlightened?

Edited March 26, 2020 by Heartbreak

[C T]

18 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Like I said in the OP, I'm aware of this. I don't diminish this reality of a wide range of divine female images in Tibetan Buddhism. Two reasons why this doesn't disperse my concerns about misogyny: 1. Like the Mahayana does not represent an abrogation of Hinayana, even less does Vajrayana abrogate Mahayana, and the teaching that the proper form of a Buddha includes maleness, and that a female birth is unfortunate, is still in the DNA of Vajrayana- there is a subtle but important difference between saying "women can be Buddhas" and "even women can be Buddhas". 2. Tibetan Buddhism, institutionally, does not elevate women very well, as can be seen in the rarity of women lineage holders, the lack of full bhiksuni ordinations, and the frequently exploitative character of the karma mudra practice. Granted, similar accusations can be leveled at pretty much any religious institution, even ostensibly egalitarian ones, but I think there is a doctrinal underpinning that is not easily laid aside here.

 

A lot of this is examined in detail by June Campbell, who was famously abused by the Kagyu tulku Kalu Rinpoche.

 

I apologise that you had to repeat the premise of your OP again. It wasn't my intention to elicit a response from you. The comment above was in response to the latterly input by Ion. Some good points for contemplation from you both, so thank you. 

 

The old misogynistic landscape that prevailed is no longer as pronounced. Both the Karma Kagyu and the Drukpa Kagyu lineages, and lesser pronounced but nonetheless pursued in other lineages as well, there are ongoing programs pursuing avenues to ensure that outdated attitudes (wrt to this perceived misogyny) be subverted to give way to a more balanced and proper distribution and recognition of gender equality in Tibetan Buddhism.  

 

Quote

“Many people might think I’m doing this because others want me to,” the Karmapa explained. “But I’m not doing it to placate anyone or in response to anyone. No matter how others see it, I feel this is something necessary. In order to uphold the Buddhist teachings it is necessary to have the fourfold community (fully ordained monks (gelongs), fully ordained nuns (gelongmas), and both male and female lay precept holders). As the Buddha said, the fourfold community are the four pillars of the Buddhist teachings. This is the reason why I’m taking interest in this.”

 

 

Snipped from an article entitled, "Is South Asia’s Buddhist Leader the Gyalwang Drukpa an Ecofeminist? Dialectical, Grounded Analysis of Eminent Feminist Theology Illuminates the Foundations for a Vajrayana Buddhist Ecofeminism" -- 

 

Quote

 

Scholarship on Buddhist perspectives of ecofeminism are notable for their scarcity, at least in English language publications. While John Makransky takes up the topic in the course of his comparative theology of Christian liberation theology from a Buddhist perspective (Makransky 2014), the scholar to take up ecofeminism not only as the central topic, but constructed an indigenous Buddhist ecofeminism from a culturally-situated perspective, is theologian Hyun-Shik Jun from Yonsei University in Seoul. Jun’s paper takes a philosophical approach, comparing Hegelian, Madhyamaka, and Korean Tonghak non-duality philosophy and arguing their synthesized application, “a Korean ecofeminist critical reconstructive dialectics of negative identity” (Jun 2014), to custom-fit the ecofeminism articulated by theologian Rosemary Radford Reuther (of which more will be said below).

 

The extent to which the Gyalwang Drukpa is determined to behave like an ecofeminist is significant for Vajrayāna Tibetan Buddhism in general and its lay and ordained men and women in particular. It leads to other questions, such as, “Is he the only one among the senior-ranking, male Buddhist ecclesia, or are there others?;” and “If there are others, how might we identify and describe them?” The implications of an eco- and female-empowering leadership role would be useful to explore with respect to local and international Tibetan Buddhism, Himalayan social culture, and the larger social-political contexts of India, Nepal, Bhutan, and Tibet, as well as the academic disciplines of Tibetan Buddhist feminist theology, Buddhist practical theology, and applied dharma. Such questions are of interest to scholars and practitioners of contemporary Vajrayāna Buddhist ^f theological praxis, the historical narrative of Tibetan Buddhism, dharma traditions, ethics, environmental, and cultural studies.

 

 

And a first in the Drikung Kagyu lineage: 

In 2002 Khenmo Drolma, an American woman, became the first bhikkhuni (a fully ordained Buddhist nun) in the Drikung Kagyu lineage. She is also the first westerner, male or female, to be installed as an abbot in the Drikung Kagyu lineage, having been installed as the abbot of the Vajra Dakini Nunnery (America's first Tibetan Buddhist nunnery, located in Vermont) in 2004.

 

 

These are all extremely encouraging signs of shifting attitudes from one of ignorance to one that places import on empowering women in Buddhism. I'm aware the past record had been somewhat unsavoury and painted a dim picture, but thats all being slowly set right by a new wave of spiritual leaders. 

[ilumairen]

 

On 3/24/2020 at 7:17 PM, ion said:

In fact it would take some hard peer reviewed research proving that they are even capable of thinking freely and for themselves before I'd believe it.

 

I chose this quote intentionally, although I'm going to address your most recent posts directed at me.

 

Please reread the posts I've made and words I actually typed in this thread. I have not said there are no differences between men and women. It is your own argument placed upon me, not a position I hold, and yet something you are attempting to push me into defending. For what purpose? 

 

You are not responding to the words I type, but what you're holding in your own head. To me, this indicates entrenched paradigm, which isn't an attempt to shame, but an observation which to me indicates how involved I am inclined to become.

 

Back to the above quote: Perhaps because you so blatantly attempt to do the "thinking" for others, and don't leave much room for them to share what they actually think, it is difficult for you to believe they can think for themselves at all. Maybe you're just trolling, and maybe it's honestly important to you to believe only men have a potential for enlightenment. I don't know. The only thing I do know at this time in this interaction, is you've put a yoke of limitation on women, and one I disagree with in many ways, but not the way you've attributed to me.

[ilumairen]

On 3/24/2020 at 7:17 PM, ion said:

If I had never had any exposure to evidence that there have been enlightened men I would not believe enlightened men exist so along the same lines of thinking I do not believe there have been enlightened women.

 

Would you actually like some evidence there have been women who were considered enlightened?

 

I, and I'm sure some others here,  could pull some quotes for you if  you are being honest here, and not simply justifying your strongly held belief with words meant to sound logical and rational. 

 

[ilumairen]

12 hours ago, ion said:

No, this was taken in context of people becoming irrationally polarized due to the controversial nature of the facts I presented [...]

 

What you presented was (intentionally?) polarized.. and then you play "victim" when this polarization is reflected back to you?

 

Where is the rationality in that?

 

Perhaps if you stick with facts things will progress differently.

[silent thunder]

yup, gender troll.

 

 

[moment]

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

yup, gender troll.

 

 

 

@ilumairen and silent thunder.  I bow to your superior patience in this matter.

[Heartbreak]

I would love some examples of women who are truly enlightened to be in this thread. 
 

I would provide my examples of enlightened women who are older Caucasian American females just to prove I am not racist or sexist.

 

http://www.kellylarsen.net/about/

 

http://www.leighannphillips.com/about/

[ralis]

3 minutes ago, Heartbreak said:

I would love some examples of women who are truly enlightened to be in this thread. 
 

I would provide my examples of enlightened women who are older Caucasian American females just to prove I am not racist or sexist.

 

http://www.kellylarsen.net/about/

 

http://www.leighannphillips.com/about/

How do you know they are enlightened? You seem to have problems discerning the difference. 

[Heartbreak]

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

How do you know they are enlightened? You seem to have problems discerning the difference. 

I know for sure you are not enlightened.

 

Why don’t you start a website offering the enlightenment of the mind the soul like the above two spiritually enlightened teachers and maybe I will eat my words?

[ion]

2 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

What you presented was (intentionally?) polarized.. and then you play "victim" when this polarization is reflected back to you?

 

Where is the rationality in that?

 

Perhaps if you stick with facts things will progress differently.

No, what I presented was not polarized. Due to a baseless ideology held, people were polarized when presented with controversial facts.

 

No, I'm not playing the victim. I'm just pointing out that no one has presented any facts, charts or links supporting their arguments but they ha e only attacked my character for holding an evidence based view as opposed to an ideology that is not based on facts.

 

I am the one sticking to facts, and the one encouraging others to do so too.

[Miroku]

Since this is a buddhist part of the forum I would drop few names here.

Lama Tsultrim Allione, Lama Lena, Pema Chödron and others. There are many great and succesful female practitioners and these are just western women. Yeah, they might not be enlightened, at least I have not met them to make such a statement. However they are definitely qualified teachers.

[ion]

33 minutes ago, Heartbreak said:

I would love some examples of women who are truly enlightened to be in this thread. 
 

I would provide my examples of enlightened women who are older Caucasian American females just to prove I am not racist or sexist.

 

http://www.kellylarsen.net/about/

 

http://www.leighannphillips.com/about/

Are you comparing these peoe to Buddha and Laotzi?

[ion]

2 minutes ago, Miroku said:

Since this is a buddhist part of the forum I would drop few names here.

Lama Tsultrim Allione, Lama Lena, Pema Chödron and others. There are many great and succesful female practitioners and these are just western women. Yeah, they might not be enlightened, at least I have not met them to make such a statement. However they are definitely qualified teachers.

There are many qualified teachers who are women.

[ion]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

yup, gender troll.

 

 

Provide an example or you're the one trolling

[ion]

And presenting controversial facts is not an example of trolling, but calling that trolling is an example of cognitive dissonance.

[ralis]

47 minutes ago, Heartbreak said:

I know for sure you are not enlightened.

 

Why don’t you start a website offering the enlightenment of the mind the soul like the above two spiritually enlightened teachers and maybe I will eat my words?

 

Please explain what enlightenment is. 

[silent thunder]

2 hours ago, moment said:

 

@ilumairen and silent thunder.  I bow to your superior patience in this matter.

any energy is better spent elsewhere...

 

2 hours ago, ion said:

Provide an example or you're the one trolling

Na, this is my last troll feeding here io.

You would not be able, or willing to engage it from within your fishbowl.\

Nor is any of this worthy of further energy.

peace.

[Heartbreak]

3 hours ago, ion said:

Are you comparing these peoe to Buddha and Laotzi?

Yes.

[ion]

2 hours ago, silent thunder said:

any energy is better spent elsewhere...

 

Na, this is my last troll feeding here io.

You would not be able, or willing to engage it from within your fishbowl.\

Nor is any of this worthy of further energy.

peace.

Lol

[ion]

1 hour ago, Heartbreak said:

Yes.

Then we are discussing different things.

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

any energy is better spent elsewhere...

 

Na, this is my last troll feeding here io.

You would not be able, or willing to engage it from within your fishbowl.\

Nor is any of this worthy of further energy.

peace.

 

I previously mentioned almost wanting to be a mod again but the ignore button is so much easier. 

[rideforever]

There is a strange modern phenomenon of men who spend their time fawning over feminism etc...

Is it due to low testosterone ?

A man's job is to be a man, and when the time comes to screw.

Women have their own ways that are not your business.

 

"Feminism" is just more abuse of women teaching them on the front cover of Marie Claire  that they've been wronged ... and then on page 5 "we have the answer" (hate men so you can be on your own with 5 cats) and by the way buy some mascara and imagine you are some supermodel though you look like a freak !!!!

Yeah .. you really helping women.

"You've been wronged !!!"  Joke.

 

Yes women have smaller head brains, and men have smaller body brains.

But they have both been replaced by Netflix, so they are completely equally stupid.

Everyone has lost about 10-15% of their brain mass compared to their ancestors.

 

Slaves don't need a gender, or a family, they just need to suck up what lies they are told ... and then destroy themselves and die.

That is the instruction from on high.

 

[Apech]

On 3/25/2020 at 1:40 PM, SirPalomides said:

 

Like I said in the OP, I'm aware of this. I don't diminish this reality of a wide range of divine female images in Tibetan Buddhism. Two reasons why this doesn't disperse my concerns about misogyny: 1. Like the Mahayana does not represent an abrogation of Hinayana, even less does Vajrayana abrogate Mahayana, and the teaching that the proper form of a Buddha includes maleness, and that a female birth is unfortunate, is still in the DNA of Vajrayana- there is a subtle but important difference between saying "women can be Buddhas" and "even women can be Buddhas". 2. Tibetan Buddhism, institutionally, does not elevate women very well, as can be seen in the rarity of women lineage holders, the lack of full bhiksuni ordinations, and the frequently exploitative character of the karma mudra practice. Granted, similar accusations can be leveled at pretty much any religious institution, even ostensibly egalitarian ones, but I think there is a doctrinal underpinning that is not easily laid aside here.

 

A lot of this is examined in detail by June Campbell, who was famously abused by the Kagyu tulku Kalu Rinpoche.

 

Good points I think.

 

But I would repeat something.  I think it is indisputable that at the time of the Buddha, also in medieval India (600 - 1300 AD) and in Tibet right through till 1950 women would have a second class status in society - and the forms of Buddhism practiced through those periods would reflect this.  However, the Vajrayana specifically classed the denigration of women as a root downfall which many would suggest is some kind of more enlightened reform - but I would say is a reset to what the Buddha probably originally taught.  Because there is fundamentally no difference in dharma between men and women no matter what the cultural attitudes say.  I don't think this is about Tara and dakinis and so on - because presenting women as 'goddesses' is as sexist as denigrating them (even though some feminists come out with this tripe also).

 

I don't think karma mudra is inherently exploitative - but of course that doesn't mean people don't exploit it.  I haven't read June Campbell so I don't know what Kalu Rinpoche is supposed to have done to her - so I'll rest judgement on that till I do.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

8 minutes ago, rideforever said:

There is a strange modern phenomenon of men who spend their time fawning over feminism etc...

Is it due to low testosterone ?

A man's job is to be a man, and when the time comes to screw.

Women have their own ways that are not your business.

 

"Feminism" is just more abuse of women teaching them on the front cover of Marie Claire  that they've been wronged ... and then on page 5 "we have the answer" (hate men so you can be on your own with 5 cats) and by the way buy some mascara and imagine you are some supermodel though you look like a freak !!!!

Yeah .. you really helping women.

"You've been wronged !!!"  Joke.

 

Yes women have smaller head brains, and men have smaller body brains.

But they have both been replaced by Netflix, so they are completely equally stupid.

Everyone has lost about 10-15% of their brain mass compared to their ancestors.

 

Slaves don't need a gender, or a family, they just need to suck up what lies they are told ... and then destroy themselves and die.

That is the instruction from on high.

 

 

Someone's free Wi-Fi at Starbucks didn't come with his morning cup of self-loathing, so he has to spread it here as usual.