Jim (Marblehead) crossed over the line on 8 December...

[sean]

Imagine thinking that having an uncompromising stance against homophobia is fanaticism though.

[liminal_luke]

Can I make a suggestion?

 

Let´s go back to enforcing an across-the-board insult policy.  This would be a more friendly place if we build a culture where personal attacks aren´t allowed to stand.  The beauty of such a rule is that it´s not tied to any one ideology: any post that showed an intent to insult or demean would count.  So, if I call someone a Trumpster jerk, that´s a reportable offense.  If I call someone a left-wing snowflake fairy, reportable offense.

 

At the same time, we could lighten up on the punishments.  First-time or very occasional offenders could simply be asked to edit the insult out of their posts.  Repeat insulters could be given very short, say 3 day, suspensions.  Lets save actual bans for those few situations where a Bum staunchly refuses to follow the policy, consistently bringing down the quality of the forum experience for everyone else. 

[wandelaar]

Good! The above post by liminal_luke is much better than what I had in mind for Sean. So I will just say that I agree with liminal-luke.

[Apech]

14 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Can I make a suggestion?

 

Let´s go back to enforcing an across-the-board insult policy.  This would be a more friendly place if we build a culture where personal attacks aren´t allowed to stand.  The beauty of such a rule is that it´s not tied to any one ideology: any post that showed an intent to insult or demean would count.  So, if I call someone a Trumpster jerk, that´s a reportable offense.  If I call someone a left-wing snowflake fairy, reportable offense.

 

At the same time, we could lighten up on the punishments.  First-time or very occasional offenders could simply be asked to edit the insult out of their posts.  Repeat insulters could be given very short, say 3 day, suspensions.  Lets save actual bans for those few situations where a Bum staunchly refuses to follow the policy, consistently bringing down the quality of the forum experience for everyone else. 

 

That's where we were at before Sean returned with his new approach.  But it takes a team to do all the warnings and requests to self edit and so on as it is quite time consuming - a team which doesn't exist at the moment.  We used to think of moderators as kind of model citizens to encourage self-moderation - so the communication with members was usually moderate.  Calm, respectful and yet firm.  Saying 'fuck you' 'passive aggressive homophobe' doesn't fit with this old style, as it is in itself an ad-hominem which was always the main no-no.  I'm probably not the only one who is puzzled and slightly shocked by this new environment.

[liminal_luke]

29 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

  I'm probably not the only one who is puzzled and slightly shocked by this new environment.

 

No, you´re not. 

 

We´re all grateful to Sean.  He created and maintains this beautiful space which has positively contributed to the lives of so many.  He came back at a critical point and saved the forum from falling into the political hell realms.  He champions values I believe in, courageously standing up for historically oppressed and disenfrancised people everywhere.  But he does deserve a (gentle, brief) time out.

Edited December 9, 2019 by liminal_luke

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, sean said:

Imagine thinking that having an uncompromising stance against homophobia is fanaticism though.

 

Imagine tolerance in an online spiritual forum. Not all countries have the same values but with tolerance one could come to such places to learn and grow.

[sean]

I'll concede that I'm setting a potentially confusing precedent when, based on my own ethical framework, I swoop in as admin and mock, insult and ban members.

 

Where I'm coming from, for what it's worth, is basically reaching a breaking point in my life with the disparity between supposedly "well meaning" folks who've never examined the enormous privilege of their socially acceptable identity (e.g., class, race, sexuality, gender), never really tried to imagine and empathize with the lived experience of what it feels like to be marginalized, discriminated against, at risk of literal physical violence and murder on a daily basis for your entire life just because you're black or are cool enough to enjoy gay sex, etc.

 

These are folks who express basically zero outrage for the colossal inequalities woven into all of our communities. Everything is fine because that's how it's been, and all this so-called "oppression", oh come on, they're only exceptions, and also I'm doing relatively fine.

 

But HOLY FUCKING SHIT EVERYONE. Someone on the internet said a curse word and called me a dipshit and told me to stop being homophobic. This is an outrageous violation of free speech and tolerance. This is clearly a slippery slope to gulags. When oh when can we go back to facilitating people with 10x more power being politely bigoted to victims of oppression who must also smile civilly, remain calm and polite?

 

So yeah, I'm an asshole and I'm not even trying to justify my behavior on some high moral ground. Frankly I just don't lose sleep being angry for people who can't afford to, or for making thin-skinned bigots who've never been challenged feel like shit for two minutes before they close a browser tab and microwave their dinner in a warm home.

 

I also maybe have a different "theory of change" and think social shaming and ostracisation may sometimes do more to shake things up and facilitate enlightenment on certain issues. So call it skillful means if you want, I dunno, I'm not "wise", I'm just a computer idiot trying to provide a forum. LOL.

 

(Edit: I should clarify that none of what I wrote above is specifically directed at Limahong and I do have empathy for generational and cultural gaps in understanding.)

 

[dawei]

15 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

The current bruhaha started a page or so back when Limahong referred to Taomeow and I as "ladies."  I´m not a lady and posted a reply making this clear.  I also stated that I felt Limahong made an honest mistake about my gender. 

 

 

I've made the mistake here too... but I will say that your post was not clear, particularly to a foreigner.

 

Up until a few minutes ago, he still believed you are a lady.  Clear would of been, "Hey Lima sorry for any confusion but I'm a guy".

 

I've been talking to him to educate him about the issue.  He seems completely dumbfounded how he could of been so wrong as he talked of helping you before and you made some references to something that made him certainly think you were a lady... so it seems there is a lot of communication that was not clear between you two.

 

You might of seen in the past where staff tried to direct some of his posting at times.  We knew he was a foreigner with not a complete western grasp of online communication.

 

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

But he does deserve a (gentle, brief) time out.

 

In this case, clarity would of prevented all of the over-reaction going on.  But, IMO, the reaction should be education not outrage.

 

Added:  And clearly he needs to slow down and read and digest meaning more.   I do think he was caught up in the remembrance of MH to stop and think through some posts.

Edited December 9, 2019 by dawei

[Nintendao]

Moderation by unilateral indignation seems fine by me, given the circumstances. Sometimes people knowingly push the limits of getting away with BS, or even totally innocently get caught up in acting a little too much a fool. AS LONG as hasty bans are not permanent, but a swift and potent kick into the penalty box can be extremely educational.

 

I so tend to read Sean's "attacks" as less viscous than self-aware sardonicism:

 

[wandelaar]

The worldview of a fanatic:

 

The world is rotten and I know what is wrong with it. So I am justified in forcing my opinions onto others, because I know what has to be done. Furthermore those who disagree with me must be stupid, mentally ill or morally depraved for not seeing the truth as I do. Therefore I don't care about the feelings or opinions of those who dare to oppose me. I will not stop to do the right thing till justice is done!

 

Left, right or religious - what does it matter...

[liminal_luke]

16 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I've made the mistake here too... but I will say that your post was not clear, particularly to a foreigner.

 

Up until a few minutes ago, he still believed you are a lady.  Clear would of been, "Hey Lima sorry for any confusion but I'm a guy".

 

I've been talking to him to educate him about the issue.  He seems completely dumbfounded how he could of been so wrong as he talked of helping you before and you made some references to something that made him certainly think you were a lady... so it seems there is a lot of communication that was not clear between you two.

 

You might of seen in the past where staff tried to direct some of his posting at times.  We knew he was a foreigner with not a complete western grasp of online communication.

 

 

In this case, clarity would of prevented all of the over-reaction going on.  But, IMO, the reaction should be education not outrage.

 

Added:  And clearly he needs to slow down and read and digest meaning more.   I do think he was caught up in the remembrance of MH to stop and think through some posts.

 

LIke many, I operate in a bit of a bubble, often assuming that other people easily make the same leaps of logic that I do and that we are all operating in a similar cultural milieu.  Clearly I´m mistaken.  I´ve never before had a negative interaction with Limahong and bear him no ill will.  If he never meant to be insulting and this is just a cultural misunderstanding on my part than let´s end his ban now and chalk it all up to botched communication.  

 

(I seem to be really striking out in the clarity department.  When I wrote above "He deserves a (brief, gentle) time out" that was in reference to Sean, not Limahong.  I just don´t like seeing the F-word used in an insulting way, not even towards someone who really has been abusive towards others. ) 

[Taomeow]

A taoist interlude. 

 

It was all a misunderstanding and it was all meant to happen.  I'll explain.

 

 Limahong PMed me asking to join in and say a few words.  I was saddened by Marbles's passing like so many, and of course I would honor the request, except I felt some inner resistance which I didn't understand.  I simply couldn't write anything.  Not to wax mystical but it was like some spiritual "no" that would flash across my screen every time I tried.  This, for three days or so, and finally I did what I always do when I don't know what to make of something -- an I Ching divination. 

 

The I Ching told me not to write anything in the memorial thread, in rather strong terms.  I asked "why," the answer boiled down to "because I tell you so, and don't inquire again."  I was surprised and still felt bad about not saying anything and not even being able to explain why.  The next day I asked again -- though I should've known better given my I Ching experience of almost 20 years -- and the I Ching gave me something akin to a tired parent yielding to a pleading child who insists on getting what she wants -- "well, I told you not to, but if you insist on entering the realm of the devils, fine, go right ahead and see what happens." 

 

Lima in the meantime sent another PM trying to convince me to participate in the memorial thread.  So I decided, all right, I'll be brief and careful, and posted a few words.  To which Luke responded -- to which Lima promptly addressed me and him as "ladies" and then "fairy ladies" -- to which Sean reacted -- all within minutes I think.  Instant unfolding of the very scenario the I Ching couldn't explain to me because the oracle doesn't actually speak in scenarios.  She told me how to avoid it.  Tao told me to do nothing, people asked me to do something, I went with what people asked, and tao unfolded the scenario.  No one's fault.  The butterfly was told not to flap its wing.  A human tied a thread to that wing and pulled.  The butterfly flapped its wing and the tornado it was to trigger followed.  

 

End of taoist interlude.  

 

   

 

    

[ilumairen]

(((Hugs @Taomeow)))

 

For some reason which is completely unfathomable in this moment, I thought I was the only one who got the "no's," and occasionally usurped this inner guidance only to find I would have preferred the outcome had I listened.

[Nintendao]

18 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

The butterfly flapped its wing and the tornado it was to trigger followed.

 

I am confident though, that LimA always accepts the boot as a prompt to meditate even more in earnest, thus the whirlwind may be exactly what was needed to waft our collective sentiment to even higher heavens. 😇

[Taomeow]

17 minutes ago, ilumairen said:

(((Hugs @Taomeow)))

 

For some reason which is completely unfathomable in this moment, I thought I was the only one who got the "no's," and occasionally usurped this inner guidance only to find I would have preferred the outcome had I listened.

 

(((@ilumairen)))  Hugs back!   

[moment]

4 hours ago, sean said:

Imagine thinking that having an uncompromising stance against homophobia is fanaticism though.

Did you ask him if he meant it in a homophobic way?  One of my best friends in the sixties, seventies and eighties was a flaming queen.

He was one of the main shakers and movers in Seattle.  He used to call me his token hetero. Hell, he brought the powers of the local Catholic diocese in Seattle to the bargaining table about gay rights in 1976.  My point being that with all that drive and agenda, he still made damn sure that there was no misunderstanding before going off on someone.  I talked to Lima and he has gone into that submissive Chinese thing where it had to be his fault because "authority" was angry.  But, he really did not understand his mistake, he was having fun and did not know context (he is an old Chinese man in Singapore). You could have discerned that, instructed him, warned him and he would have been better for that, and you would have been impressive in your wisdom and leadership.  Instead, you came off as a knee-jerk owner with power.

Edited December 9, 2019 by moment

[liminal_luke]

3 minutes ago, moment said:

Did you ask him if he meant it in a homophobic way?  

 

I feel bad for my part in this.  If people are in email contact with Limahong (I´m not) please relay my apology.  

[moment]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I feel bad for my part in this.  If people are in email contact with Limahong (I´m not) please relay my apology.  

Will do!

[Apech]

3 hours ago, sean said:

I'll concede that I'm setting a potentially confusing precedent when, based on my own ethical framework, I swoop in as admin and mock, insult and ban members.

 

Where I'm coming from, for what it's worth, is basically reaching a breaking point in my life with the disparity between supposedly "well meaning" folks who've never examined the enormous privilege of their socially acceptable identity (e.g., class, race, sexuality, gender), never really tried to imagine and empathize with the lived experience of what it feels like to be marginalized, discriminated against, at risk of literal physical violence and murder on a daily basis for your entire life just because you're black or are cool enough to enjoy gay sex, etc.

 

These are folks who express basically zero outrage for the colossal inequalities woven into all of our communities. Everything is fine because that's how it's been, and all this so-called "oppression", oh come on, they're only exceptions, and also I'm doing relatively fine.

 

But HOLY FUCKING SHIT EVERYONE. Someone on the internet said a curse word and called me a dipshit and told me to stop being homophobic. This is an outrageous violation of free speech and tolerance. This is clearly a slippery slope to gulags. When oh when can we go back to facilitating people with 10x more power being politely bigoted to victims of oppression who must also smile civilly, remain calm and polite?

 

So yeah, I'm an asshole and I'm not even trying to justify my behavior on some high moral ground. Frankly I just don't lose sleep being angry for people who can't afford to, or for making thin-skinned bigots who've never been challenged feel like shit for two minutes before they close a browser tab and microwave their dinner in a warm home.

 

I also maybe have a different "theory of change" and think social shaming and ostracisation may sometimes do more to shake things up and facilitate enlightenment on certain issues. So call it skillful means if you want, I dunno, I'm not "wise", I'm just a computer idiot trying to provide a forum. LOL.

 

(Edit: I should clarify that none of what I wrote above is specifically directed at Limahong and I do have empathy for generational and cultural gaps in understanding.)

 

 

 

Yeah but what is the goal?  I always assumed it was to have a board which allowed as much as possible freewheeling discussion and debate with people from all round the world - of different genders, ethnicity and background etc. who could bring themselves and their ideas into the forum and make this a lively and interesting place.  Unlike I would say most 'spiritual' forums - which are usually dead and more than a little dull.  The way to do this I believe is to have a few simple rules (like no ad hominem) which are enforced in a way (firmly) which people learn quite quickly to stay within the guidelines.  I completely agree that we should have no sexism, homophobia, racism and so on.  It's not ok.  The way to deal with this is to say - hey! did you mean that? (cos sometimes people don't express themselves very well especially if English is not their first language) - will you remove it? - no? sorry but you're suspended.

 

I don't see a problem with no Trump on here - if that's what you want - cos to be honest politics is a side distraction anyway.

 

You make assumptions about everyone's privilege - but you don't even know for sure what ethnicity, gender or sexuality they really are.  You don't know if we are rich or poor - powerful or not - you have no idea what privilege we may or may not have.  We are anonymous - you are really just guessing - unless they have explicitly told you you don't actually know.

 

To be honest when you post like this I just see massive imbalance, anger and frustration (within yourself and with the world) - but of course that's just my impression and I might be wrong.  Like everyone I'm grateful for you setting up and running this site which has become part of my life like nothing else on the internet - but its a real discordant when I see your version of moderation is to tell someone to fuck off.

 

Then there is context.  This was all about commemorating Marblehead's passing a year ago - which Limahong had remembered and prompted us to 'celebrate'.  It wouldn't have happened without him - and he clearly has/had a great attachment to Jim - as I did and many of us.  It's probably (as far as I know) the first time a DaoBum has died on 'active duty'.  Do you think banning the organiser on the very day sends a good message about respect and compassion????  No it was cheap, lazy and arrogant.  To which you should own.

[moment]

22 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Yeah but what is the goal?  I always assumed it was to have a board which allowed as much as possible freewheeling discussion and debate with people from all round the world - of different genders, ethnicity and background etc. who could bring themselves and their ideas into the forum and make this a lively and interesting place.  Unlike I would say most 'spiritual' forums - which are usually dead and more than a little dull.  The way to do this I believe is to have a few simple rules (like no ad hominem) which are enforced in a way (firmly) which people learn quite quickly to stay within the guidelines.  I completely agree that we should have no sexism, homophobia, racism and so on.  It's not ok.  The way to deal with this is to say - hey! did you mean that? (cos sometimes people don't express themselves very well especially if English is not their first language) - will you remove it? - no? sorry but you're suspended.

 

I don't see a problem with no Trump on here - if that's what you want - cos to be honest politics is a side distraction anyway.

 

You make assumptions about everyone's privilege - but you don't even know for sure what ethnicity, gender or sexuality they really are.  You don't know if we are rich or poor - powerful or not - you have no idea what privilege we may or may not have.  We are anonymous - you are really just guessing - unless they have explicitly told you you don't actually know.

 

To be honest when you post like this I just see massive imbalance, anger and frustration (within yourself and with the world) - but of course that's just my impression and I might be wrong.  Like everyone I'm grateful for you setting up and running this site which has become part of my life like nothing else on the internet - but its a real discordant when I see your version of moderation is to tell someone to fuck off.

 

Then there is context.  This was all about commemorating Marblehead's passing a year ago - which Limahong had remembered and prompted us to 'celebrate'.  It wouldn't have happened without him - and he clearly has/had a great attachment to Jim - as I did and many of us.  It's probably (as far as I know) the first time a DaoBum has died on 'active duty'.  Do you think banning the organiser on the very day sends a good message about respect and compassion????  No it was cheap, lazy and arrogant.  To which you should own.

 

Damn! You are good!

[dawei]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 Limahong PMed me asking to join in and say a few words.  I was saddened by Marbles's passing like so many, and of course I would honor the request, except I felt some inner resistance which I didn't understand.  I simply couldn't write anything.  Not to wax mystical but it was like some spiritual "no" that would flash across my screen every time I tried.  This, for three days or so, and finally I did what I always do when I don't know what to make of something -- an I Ching divination. 

 

The I Ching told me not to write anything in the memorial thread, in rather strong terms. 

 

Lima in the meantime sent another PM trying to convince me to participate in the memorial thread.  So I decided, all right, I'll be brief and careful, and posted a few words.  To which Luke responded -- to which Lima promptly addressed me and him as "ladies" and then "fairy ladies" -- to which Sean reacted -- all within minutes I think.      

 

Sometimes people's exuberant obsessions are not clear to themselves.  His extreme closeness to MH is across this forum but unless one was around for those few years, his heartfelt passion and devastating sense of loss of a 'brother' is hard to comprehend.  That we did not have open, public remembrance yet seems his motive to get forum-wide closure, particularly for him. 

 

I can't chide his motives and feelings but what you relate is something I also felt...  and why I posted few words so late in the remembrance.   In the end, I think, he did a good thing in honoring MH.   

 

 

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I feel bad for my part in this.  If people are in email contact with Limahong (I´m not) please relay my apology.  

 

I can't count how many times I felt bad for something on the board...  I was in contact with lots of folks in private to talk about why such action or inaction occurred.   All we can do is talk and move on.   You have really mastered that as a lesson to us.  

[ilumairen]

3 hours ago, moment said:

I talked to Lima and he has gone into that submissive Chinese thing where it had to be his fault because "authority" was angry. 

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

Then there is context.  This was all about commemorating Marblehead's passing a year ago - which Limahong had remembered and prompted us to 'celebrate'.  It wouldn't have happened without him - and he clearly has/had a great attachment to Jim - as I did and many of us.  It's probably (as far as I know) the first time a DaoBum has died on 'active duty'. 

 

47 minutes ago, dawei said:

His extreme closeness to MH is across this forum but unless one was around for those few years, his heartfelt passion and devastating sense of loss of a 'brother' is hard to comprehend.  That we did not have open, public remembrance yet seems his motive to get forum-wide closure, particularly for him. 

 

These posts point towards and highlight what was at first hard to put into words for me. The great connection between Marbs and Lima happened precisely because Marbs understood both the nationally inspired timidity and unintentional awkwardness, and repeatedly offered his hand to help Lima back up when he stumbled on rocky ground or fell into uncertain waters.  And Marbs would have greatly disliked what happened. He never wanted anyone banned - time outs were ok, but straight up banning was something he spoke very clearly and directly against. 

 

Now, these hours later, we've discovered it was what was previously called a suspension, but while Sean was unaware of this distinction due to precedence in the eyes of the community between the terms (banned and suspended) things looked very different for those of us who could do nothing but observe, and a bit like a kick in the teeth to the memory of Marbs and what he chose to stand for. 

 

This has been "interesting" in the way my family uses the word...

 

[sean]

5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

The worldview of a fanatic:

 

The world is rotten and I know what is wrong with it. So I am justified in forcing my opinions onto others, because I know what has to be done. Furthermore those who disagree with me must be stupid, mentally ill or morally depraved for not seeing the truth as I do. Therefore I don't care about the feelings or opinions of those who dare to oppose me. I will not stop to do the right thing till justice is done!

 

Left, right or religious - what does it matter...

 

The worldview of a lazy centrist:

 

The world is just fine for me so I know there can't be that much wrong with it. So I am justified in never cultivating the kind of moral clarity that would lead me to actually help anyone less fortunate, especially if it would rock the boat. Furthermore those who disagree with me must be stupid, mentally ill or fanatical for not seeing, as I do, that the truth is relative and certainly never clear enough to motivate action, especially if impolite. Therefore I care much more about perceived civility than those who dare oppose the current status quo. I will never stop being firmly planted in a lazy, false compromise of centrism defined entirely by the poles of the situation I happen to find myself in. I will never be bothered to fight, god forbid, for so-called "justice".

 

Left, right or religious - what does it matter, I'm doing pretty OK ...

 

...

 

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's feedback. Not an excuse , but I'm having a very rough month to be honest. I've unsuspended Limahong and I'm sorry if I've disrespected the memorial topic.

 

Sean

 

[wandelaar]

8 hours ago, sean said:

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's feedback. Not an excuse , but I'm having a very rough month to be honest. I've unsuspended Limahong and I'm sorry if I've disrespected the memorial topic.

 

Sean

 

Thank you.

 

For the rest - Apech and others have already said it better then I could.

Edited December 10, 2019 by wandelaar

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Yo @Limahong good to have you back! I hope this won’t deter you from sharing your thoughts with your own energy, stay up my friend.

 

Speaking of Marbs legacy and being: look at how gloriously this got resolved, Bums standing up for each other and acknowledging respect and decency with... *pause for dramatic effect* Respect and Decency!

 

You guys are way cool, proud to call myself a Bum in such illustrious company!

Edited December 9, 2019 by Rocky Lionmouth