Diamond Way Buddhism

[passenger1980]

I've been invited by a friend to a Diamond Way Buddhist center to check it out. I don't know if anyone is familiar with them, so here is some information :

 

http://www.diamondway-buddhism.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Nydahl

 

I have read some stuff about Ole Nydahl's teachings and it's ok, although his students seem a little too fanatic about his persona and the whole thing, which is not very buddhist in my opinion. Anyway, i would like to know if there are any members here, and also what is the opinion about this from more experienced posters and general buddhists.

 

Thanks!

[林愛偉]

I've been invited by a friend to a Diamond Way Buddhist center to check it out. I don't know if anyone is familiar with them, so here is some information :

 

http://www.diamondway-buddhism.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Nydahl

 

I have read some stuff about Ole Nydahl's teachings and it's ok, although his students seem a little too fanatic about his persona and the whole thing, which is not very buddhist in my opinion. Anyway, i would like to know if there are any members here, and also what is the opinion about this from more experienced posters and general buddhists.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Mostly Tibetan Buddhist students act a bit fanatical towards their teacher, all because they are supposed to take refuge with 4 Jewels in Tibetan tradition. They are; The Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and the Teacher.

 

Tibetan Buddhism, to a great extent, has been a great commercialism in every country. I would say, if you have to go, go. If you don't, then by all means don't.

 

For me, the whole Tibetan Buddhism notion of taking refuge with the teacher is a big big big Red light for me. Its not really proper. And the students do push the teacher in the spotlight, and the teachers usually eat it up.

 

 

I don't bash other practices, or other schools of cultivation. I simply look directly and investigate. Thus my brief comment above.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[passenger1980]

Mostly Tibetan Buddhist students act a bit fanatical towards their teacher, all because they are supposed to take refuge with 4 Jewels in Tibetan tradition. They are; The Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, and the Teacher.

 

Tibetan Buddhism, to a great extent, has been a great commercialism in every country. I would say, if you have to go, go. If you don't, then by all means don't.

 

For me, the whole Tibetan Buddhism notion of taking refuge with the teacher is a big big big Red light for me. Its not really proper. And the students do push the teacher in the spotlight, and the teachers usually eat it up.

I don't bash other practices, or other schools of cultivation. I simply look directly and investigate. Thus my brief comment above.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

 

Lin,

 

Thank you very much for your kind reply, you are a great inspiration in this forum, as you always have a wise and honest opinion or advise for everybody.

 

I feel the same way about the whole thing. I actually prefer to cultivate by myself and concentrate on the teachings of the Buddha alone (and many other great teachers along history, from philosophers to artists).

 

But i also feel the need to share my road with friends that are cultivating in their own way, which is the case in question. After all, they meditate and cultivate as you said, even if i don't think it's the best way to do it. The main problem is that i don't want to attach or follow any particular teaching, like a rule book. In my opinion it only creates separation, everybody with its own teaching and rules as if they have the ultimate truth. Why can't we all meditate and cultivate, discover our own path by ourselves, without having branches of schools and official teachings that segregate people? I think it also weakens the inquiring mind, our good sceptical mind, which is very important to evolve in my opinion.

 

I have always despised these sort of things, i don't like organized religions as far as i can remember, and i know the Buddha itself always warned people not to idolize him. However i already said i will visit the centre, and my friend seems very anxious about it, so i'll have to go with an open mind and please him, and see what's the atmosphere there.

 

Thanks again for your sincere advice!

[rex]

Lama Ole Nydahl has a few videos on youtube that can be checked out.

 

For opinions and experiences of general and particular Buddhists there are a couple of threads on E-Sangha (registration is required to read):

 

Lama Ole Nydahl

Diamond Way Buddhism

 

You'll find that opinions vary both inside and outside the Tibetan tradition - go with your instincts.

[林愛偉]

It is best to follow your instincts though.

 

From what I have researched personally, been told by people first hand, and have

experienced first hand, Today's Tibetan Buddhism, not all of it, but a great many schools,

don't represent the Buddha Dharma in a more wholesome manner.

 

Many people have bought into the "Guru" name, and the put - on - a pedestal teacher,

with a vale of secrecy that separates more than unifies.

 

Research, ask questions and trust your instincts.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[passenger1980]

Lama Ole Nydahl has a few videos on youtube that can be checked out.

 

For opinions and experiences of general and particular Buddhists there are a couple of threads on E-Sangha (registration is required to read):

 

Lama Ole Nydahl

Diamond Way Buddhism

 

You'll find that opinions vary both inside and outside the Tibetan tradition - go with your instincts.

 

Thank you very much for the input and advice.

[gendao]

For me, the whole Tibetan Buddhism notion of taking refuge with the teacher is a big big big Red light for me. Its not really proper. And the students do push the teacher in the spotlight, and the teachers usually eat it up.

I attended a lecture by Lama Ole Nydahl last year...

 

He described himself as a guardian protector of Buddhism. Like a bodyguard, in a sense.

 

So, he was not afraid to take some hard political stances on some issues - which I liked. But I also didn't find him much of a deep thinker or scholar, either. I think he knew the dogma he was taught, but not much beyond that. Like, some students would ask him larger existential questions and he would (IMO) beat around the bush without giving direct answers. Probably because he didn't have them.

 

Also, he offered everyone Buddhist refuge, but didn't fully explain it. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that it often also includes Bodhisattva and other vows. Nothing wrong with that per se, but I think people should be informed of the full commitments they are signing up for. Personally, past-life vows have caused me problems in this life, so I'd rather not take any more. Although, I don't doubt that Buddhist refuge might possibly assist and accelerate one's progress, either. But, I just think people should be given a well-informed choice about it first.

 

Overall, I don't think he's a bad guy and I did learn some things. But, he also left a lot of things to be desired as far as what I was looking for.

Edited March 3, 2008 by vortex

[林愛偉]

I attended a lecture by Lama Ole Nydahl last year...

 

He described himself as a guardian protector of Buddhism. Like a bodyguard, in a sense.

 

So, he was not afraid to take some hard political stances on some issues - which I liked. But I also didn't find him much of a deep thinker or scholar, either. I think he knew the dogma he was taught, but not much beyond that. Like, some students would ask him larger existential questions and he would (IMO) beat around the bush without giving direct answers. Probably because he didn't have them.

 

Also, he offered everyone Buddhist refuge, but didn't fully explain it. Because, correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard that it often also includes Bodhisattva and other vows. Nothing wrong with that per se, but I think people should be informed of the full commitments they are signing up for. Personally, past-life vows have caused me problems in this life, so I'd rather not take any more. Although, I don't doubt that Buddhist refuge might possibly assist and accelerate your progress, either. But, I just think people should be given a well-informed choice about it first.

 

Overall, I don't think he's a bad guy and I did learn some things. But, he also left a lot of things to be desired as far as what I was looking for.

 

 

 

Well, here is a brief description:

 

Taking Refuge with the Triple Jewel is simply taking refuge with one's on original mind. There is only the taking refuge of the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Anything else would be an outside path.

 

The taking refuge isn't like confirmation in Catholicism. It is simply you directing the mind back to its source with wisdom. Taking Refuge with the Buddha, is surrendering to your original nature. Taking refuge with the Dharma is having faith in the teachings of great wisdom which are inherent in all living beings, and Taking Refuge with the Sangha is to put faith in the community of Buddhist Left-home cultivators in that they too will attain Buddhahood, and be supported to teach all living beings how to do the same.

 

 

Then there is the taking of the 5 precepts/vows. Which are seen as guidelines to keep the mind straight, assist in contemplation and investigation of the mind, and make sure that one doesn't perform those things which create more Outflows- Karma.

 

Taking Refuge in anything else is an outside path.

 

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[rex]

Taking Refuge in anything else is an outside path.

While I don't accord with Lin's objection to the role of the teacher in Tibetan Buddhism what he says is not without merit. Check this horror story out:

 

Fraudulent Teacher & Bad Advice

(Again, registration required to read).

 

Caveat Emptor!

[林愛偉]

While I don't accord with Lin's objection to the role of the teacher in Tibetan Buddhism what he says is not without merit. Check this horror story out:

 

Fraudulent Teacher & Bad Advice

(Again, registration required to read).

 

Caveat Emptor!

 

 

 

Now, I know I was being harsh with my statement. But that doesn't mean that even if one takes refuge in the Shifu/Master, along with the Triple Jewel, that they won't receive good teachings. Its just that traditionally, without culture, and or religion behind it, entering the door of Buddhist Education is without ceremony, just a proper accepting and upholding vows in accord with the mind of the Buddha, the teachings of that mind, the Dharma, and with the morals and conduct in virtue of the Sangha.

That was basically it. Anything else added to it is going abit too far...really. THoguh there is a ceremony for Taking Refuge, it isn't without its function. And the Shifu expounding the rpecepts to the laity is only a boat assisting in "crossing over to the other shore". He/She would actually know this already, so the view of upholding the view of ego is a bit lessened...to an extent...I mean, some people still get their kix off of expounding the Dharma.

 

With this said, i would add that a lot of sex scandals do tend to happen within the Tibetan Buddhist Sangha. And it gets covered up unbelievably, I wouldn't doubt it at all. I know monks who have been hurt health wise and mentally from their Tibetan Shifus. Not a nice scene, and it is difficult to get them to speak up because it has turned into a literal Religious Bureaucracy.

Like I said, originally, Buddhism wasn't a religion, but an education and was observed and seen as one, until 200 somewhat years ago when it became overwhelmed with much added superstition.

 

I do apologize for my harshness to those of the Tibetan Buddhist Expedient. There are those who are not egocentric maniacs in the school, and there are. It is best to have good eyes, and a clear mind. If not, research until your eyes bleed wisdom.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[林愛偉]

A Quick story:

 

I was called-out by a Tibetan group one morning requested by their Shifu that he wanted to see me.

So I went and him and I talked for 2and a half hours about Buddhism. His close disciple was in the room, and

at one point directed to me to take refuge with his Shifu. I told the Shifu that with all due respect, but Taking Refuge with the Triple Jewel is already enough in order to study Buddhism properly. The Shifu looked at me with the most kindest eyes and requested me to be a teacher at his disciple's Way Place. I humbly turned down the offer three times as I was asked three times by the Shifu. He also wanted me to represent his particular school in America, but I turned it down as well.

 

The disciple insisted that I take refuge with his Shifu, 3 times as well. I refused with the same response. The Shifu and I continued with our talk on Buddhism, and we parted ways with him giving me his recitation beads and a picture of him and his Shifu, as well as a touch on the head by his hand and a statue of a cremated monk whose body, when burned, had formed a statue of himself in bone, and lastly with 3 bows I gave him in respect to him and his kindness and compassion. He is certainly a wise being covered in a tradition which is full of bureaucracy.

 

The students of the Shifu were confused, but respected their teacher's wish of me teaching at their Way Place. But I refused because of the politics involved when it came to the disciples accepting me as a teacher at their place.

 

The point is that for "some" reason, disciples of a Tibetan Shifu one, more times than not, come across as fanatical. In China, the Secret School of Tibetan Buddhism is full of power seekers, and egotists, yet there are many who are great people, compassionate and caring.

 

There is always a little of both in every school of cultivation. This is why I say research the school, teacher thoroughly before heading into a "group" with such a history of secrecy in conduct from its followers.

 

A Buddhist school shouldn't have followers, but investigators. Straight up students who investigate what the teacher expounds and looks to see if it makes sense to the Dharma. If it doesn't make sense, it may not be a wholesome school of Buddhist education.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[mat black]

Interesting story

 

To me, it seems that best teacher is a guide. They help you to know yourself, show you how to remove impediments (of all sorts) and direct you on how to return to your inherent nature.

It's very helpful when they are willing to answer your questions, provide some clarity, but insist that it's we who must do the cultivating for ourselves.

Maybe the type of teacher one has is proportional to one's sincerity? So whether Buddist, Daoist, whatever, first be sincere and earnest, and the necessary teacher/guide will likely be found.

 

2 cents

Edited March 5, 2008 by mat black

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Not just Tibetan Monks that are bad there is bad apples in every bunch, this Thai monk isnt a Tibetan Buddhist i believe!!!

 

 

A LEADING Thai monk charged with the rape of a young Australian woman has been defrocked.

 

Thai police are investigating allegations that Phra Wimolmunee (Munee) Waewnokyoong, 59, sexually assaulted the 18-year-old during a temple "rite" on January 25.

 

Munee, a monk since he was 13, was the abbot of Chanthasamosorn Temple and the monastic head of Bangkok's Dusit district at the time of the alleged attack.

 

He had since been replaced, the acting director of Thailand's National Buddhism Bureau, Chularat Boonyakorn, said yesterday.

 

"We have already appointed a new abbot for Chanthasamorsorn Temple," said Mr Chularat.

 

Munee, who could face 20 years in jail if convicted, has denied attacking the woman.

 

Police say they arrested the monk on Thursday as he allegedly tried to assault the teenager a second time.

 

The police hid themselves on the premises after being told of the first alleged attack and asked the woman to return to the temple with a camera concealed in her bag.

 

A friend, who said she had accompanied the woman on her first visit to the temple, later told police what had happened.

 

She said the abbot told the woman that bad luck had befallen her and she should undergo a ritual to avoid "bad things".

 

The abbot then took the woman into his private quarters to perform a "rite" that included the use of lighted candles on her naked body.

 

But, after she had undressed, he sexually assaulted her.

 

The teenager's mother -- who has flown to Thailand to be with her daughter -- had for some time been a faithful follower of the monk.

 

She had recommended her daughter visit Munee, a popular preacher of Buddhism in Australia and other Western lands.

 

The Australian Embassy said its consular officials were assisting the family.

 

"The family also requested that the media respect the family's privacy at this time," an official said.

 

Detectives have since searched the monk's living quarters.

 

Phra Khru Palad Theeravoravat, who instantly defrocked the monk, later said there had been about 400 complaints against wayward monks in areas under his jurisdiction.

 

It's believed thousands of Thais and foreigners, including many Australians, have consulted Munee over the years.

 

Hundreds of girls and young men claim to have been sexually assaulted by monks in Thailand over the past 12 months.

 

Mr Chularat said the Supreme Sangha Council had issued a circular to provincial monastic leaders to ensure all abbots, monks and novices follow dharma discipline.

 

"Monks who have been defrocked because of sex allegations will never be ordained again, not even if . . . acquitted by the courts," he said.

 

 

 

MORE TERRIBLE MONKS!!! LOL They are human after all!!!!

 

 

COMPERE: Phone sex, real sex, dressing up in military uniforms, rape, murder and being murdered. These are just some of the scandals that Thailand's Buddhist Monks have been embroiled in recently.

 

South East Asia correspondent, Geoff Thompson, reports.

 

GEOFF THOMPSON: Spirits are high at the Tar Chang Temple near Bangkok. It's the end of the rainy season and time for the Monks to receive new robes from the community. People are dancing and faces are smiling, and if one didn't know better one may believe all was well in this Buddhist community.

 

But there was a dark secret here that recently became very public indeed. This Temple's Abbot was caught by local TV cameras sneaking out to late night trysts with women in breach of his vows of celibacy.

 

In the morning, Abbot Oneshy Unsap, emerged not as a Monk but meticulously disguised in the full regalia of an Army Colonel, before driving off in a shiny black Mercedes. All that was too much for Thailand's police. The Abbot was roughly arrested and now faces five years in jail. Abbot Oneshy was still wearing his Monk's robes under the military uniform because, he says, inside he is still a Monk.

 

The Abbot's Deputy at the Tah Chang Temple, Isfang Mutavow [phonetic].

 

Nowadays, he says, some Senior Monks are not disciplined so the monastic institution is declining. In the past Monks followed the rules, but now men's minds are weak. Some Monks go to prostitutes, he says, drink alcohol and take drugs. It didn't happen in the past, but now they don't follow the rules.

 

Professor Chatsuman Kappel Singh [phonetic] is a Buddhism scholar at Bangkok's Tamisat University.

 

CHATSUMAN KAPPEL SINGH: You will not forget that the Monks are also part of the larger population. When the larger population is being swept away by materialism and consumerism, the Monks who are not well practised, not [inaudible] in the Buddhist teaching, can also get swept away by materialism and by consumerism which is the strong characteristic of the modern age.

 

GEOFF THOMPSON: It's been a particularly rough trough for Thailand's Monks recently. Apart from Abbot Oneshy's scandal, other Monks have been exposed for donning wigs and attending karaoke bars. Another Deputy Abbot was recorded engaging in phone sex with women. One has been accused of rape, another has been charged with drug dealing - another still with killing a woman and dumping her in a septic tank.

 

Professor Kappel Singh says the very existence of a Monkhood known here as the Sangha is under threat.

 

CHATSUMAN KAPPEL SINGH: They say themselves they are Monks but they are not practising but they are doing something else then the lay people will lose respect - will lose respect. And if the Monks are not aware of this, they are going to become the rare specie that is going to be extinct. The Sangha and the Cabinet of the Supreme [inaudible] need to set this, priorities it as one of the most important issue that they need to meet.

 

GEOFF THOMPSON: But back at Tar Chang Temple the disgraced Abbot still has his defenders.

 

This woman says she has served as the Temple's cook for 10 years. The Abbot had some good points, she says. Though he had affairs with women, it's his own business. He didn't have sex in the Monastery, she says, and we can't be fully confident he had sex in other places. If he really did, they should have filmed it, then I would believe.

 

Professor Kappel Singh believes the mixture of Monk's mischief and modern media means the bad deeds of a few bring down the reputation of the Sangha as a whole that is causing a crisis of faith for some believers.

 

CHATSUMAN KAPPEL SINGH: The majority of them are very unhappy. The majority of them - some of them would go to the extent of saying that oh now I may lose faith in the Monks because you cannot question which one is what. You know, some of them might go to that extent.

 

GEOFF THOMPSON: But for now, at least, the numbers are on the side of the Monks. Thailand has 300,000 Monks. Only 200 a year are declared guilty of breaking their vows.

[林愛偉]

Not just Tibetan Monks that are bad there is bad apples in every bunch, this Thai monk isnt a Tibetan Buddhist i believe!!!

 

 

A LEADING Thai monk charged with the rape of a young Australian woman has been defrocked.

 

Thai police are investigating allegations that Phra Wimolmunee (Munee) Waewnokyoong, 59, sexually assaulted the 18-year-old during a temple "rite" on January 25.

 

Munee, a monk since he was 13, was the abbot of Chanthasamosorn Temple and the monastic head of Bangkok's Dusit district at the time of the alleged attack.

 

He had since been replaced, the acting director of Thailand's National Buddhism Bureau, Chularat Boonyakorn, said yesterday.

 

"We have already appointed a new abbot for Chanthasamorsorn Temple," said Mr Chularat.

 

Munee, who could face 20 years in jail if convicted, has denied attacking the woman.

 

Police say they arrested the monk on Thursday as he allegedly tried to assault the teenager a second time.

 

The police hid themselves on the premises after being told of the first alleged attack and asked the woman to return to the temple with a camera concealed in her bag.

 

A friend, who said she had accompanied the woman on her first visit to the temple, later told police what had happened.

 

She said the abbot told the woman that bad luck had befallen her and she should undergo a ritual to avoid "bad things".

 

The abbot then took the woman into his private quarters to perform a "rite" that included the use of lighted candles on her naked body.

 

But, after she had undressed, he sexually assaulted her.

 

The teenager's mother -- who has flown to Thailand to be with her daughter -- had for some time been a faithful follower of the monk.

 

She had recommended her daughter visit Munee, a popular preacher of Buddhism in Australia and other Western lands.

 

The Australian Embassy said its consular officials were assisting the family.

 

"The family also requested that the media respect the family's privacy at this time," an official said.

 

Detectives have since searched the monk's living quarters.

 

Phra Khru Palad Theeravoravat, who instantly defrocked the monk, later said there had been about 400 complaints against wayward monks in areas under his jurisdiction.

 

It's believed thousands of Thais and foreigners, including many Australians, have consulted Munee over the years.

 

Hundreds of girls and young men claim to have been sexually assaulted by monks in Thailand over the past 12 months.

 

Mr Chularat said the Supreme Sangha Council had issued a circular to provincial monastic leaders to ensure all abbots, monks and novices follow dharma discipline.

 

"Monks who have been defrocked because of sex allegations will never be ordained again, not even if . . . acquitted by the courts," he said.

 

Thai monks would be of the Theravadan Tradition.

 

You see! Its everywhere. When in a time where the world's society builds on sensations bodily, and mentally, desires are hard to control. It takes a strong will to subdue these things in this day and age.

 

I am glad the monk was dis-robed and refused to enter the Sangha again.

 

Peace,

Lin

Edited March 5, 2008 by 林愛偉

[Oolong Rabbit]

Lin,

 

Do any of the Tibetan Buddhist sects use sexual cultivation? I mean is a "Dakini" just used metaphorically?

[Wun Yuen Gong]

Hi Lin,

 

Is Thailand monks of Tibetan to me a Monk that has taken there vows is a Buddhist monk no matter what sect IMHO, and you are 100% correct these days its very hard to be a monk.

[林愛偉]

Lin,

 

Do any of the Tibetan Buddhist sects use sexual cultivation? I mean is a "Dakini" just used metaphorically?

 

 

There are dual cultivation practices in some schools in Tibetan Buddhism. Because they deal with desires and sensations, it isn't easy to control the mind, for some.

The thing with Tibetan Buddhism is that they claim faster enlightenment through their methods, and claim all other methods to be a waste of time. So this leads to egotistical views from a large amount of Tibetan Buddhists of the Secret school, and they usually end up looking power hungry, and disregarding other people. It ends up looking like a cult in the long run.

 

I have met a handful here, and they aren't right in the head you know. Not all of them, but a large amount.

 

Just remember, the Buddha never taught sexual cultivation as a means to gain enlightenment, and I have never heard of sexual practices in any of the Sutras. If someone has one with them, please send me the link, or text, for I would want to see it to believe it.

 

The Dakini would be in the sense of Tibetan Cultural practices, not Buddhism. Remember, when Buddhism moves to another culture, because there is no marks to Buddhism, people end up taking the methods and mixing them into their own culture so as to be able to accept the teachings. What usually happens is that the methods get mixed with cultural practices and what was once proper changes to improper.

 

This is why research into a particular culture of Buddhist education is so very important. If the whole package doesn't reflect the meanings of the Sutras, then its not 100% proper Dharma.

 

Peace,

Lin

[rex]

If the whole package doesn't reflect the meanings of the Sutras, then its not 100% proper Dharma.

Hi Lin,

Do you follow a particular Buddhist school and what Sutras would you recommend to read for 100% proper Dharma? Of the Sutras you do recommend, were they actually written by the historical Buddha or by his disciples, or even the disciples of the disciples years after Siddhārtha Gautama's death?

 

Best,

Rex

[林愛偉]

Hi Lin,

Do you follow a particular Buddhist school and what Sutras would you recommend to read for 100% proper Dharma? Of the Sutras you do recommend, were they actually written by the historical Buddha or by his disciples, or even the disciples of the disciples years after Siddhārtha Gautama's death?

 

Best,

Rex

 

 

Hi Rex,

 

I just cultivate Buddhism. Though there are many different schools of Buddhism, it is all of the same source. I don't view them in schools, but methods.

 

The Sutras I read have been spoken by the Buddha, like all Sutras. They all hold the Porper Dharma, it is only the interpretations of them in commentaries which may not be 100%, and or the manner in which one lives ith the teachings; culture, habits.

 

They were recorded by the Buddha's disciples after his extinction, but were spoken by the Buddha. They were written all beginning with "Thus I have heard" so as to point the focus to the Buddha and not the disciple. Meaning, when the Buddha's cousin, Ananda, began speaking the Sutras the Buddha spoke, he began with "Thus I have heard" to signify that it was the Buddha who spoke it and Ananda being the hearer of what was spoken.

 

 

I study and cultivate from: The Shurangama Sutra/Mantra, The 6th Patriarch's Diamond Platform Sutra (Spoken by Hui Neng), The Diamond Sutra, The Dharani of the Great Compassion Sutra, Heart of Prajna Paramita Sutra, Buddha Speaks the Amitabha Sutra.

 

These were, with the exception of Dharani of Great Compassion Sutra, Heart Sutra and Diamond Platform Sutra, All spoken by the Buddha, but recorded by his disciples. As was all of the Sutras.

 

 

I would recommend the Shurangama Sutra, The Diamond Sutra and 6th Patriarch's Diamond Platform Sutra. One can begin with either one of them.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

[rex]

Hi Lin,

 

Thanks for your Sutra recommendations which can be found online and studied.

 

Now this is just an observation and not a criticism but from the valuable Sutras you mentioned I believe that you do not 'just cultivate Buddhism' but a particular cultural form of Buddhism, namely Chinese Mahayana Chan.

 

From a historical point of view Mahayana Sutras are 'controversial' in that even though they claim to be the words of the Buddha, they cannot with authority be proven to be so. The only historically authoritative Sutras, i.e. those which can be actually traced back to the Buddha himself are those found in the Pali Sutra Pitaka. So from this perspective your notion of the 'Proper Dharma' is based on faith - as is of course Tibetan Mahayana and it's subset, vajrayana.

 

So while I respect your Buddhist faith, I do not hold your criticisms of Tibetan methods as authoritative pronouncements on the value of another Buddhist method, but rather as the considered opinion of a careful cultivator who finds them unsuitable, for perhaps himself, and through observation, those around him. This does not mean that they are unsuitable for all though.

 

I am reminded of a prayer I often recite:

 

In the realization of the great primordial purity, free from limits or direction,

There are no distinct vehicles to be enumerated,

Yet conceptually, in consideration of students' capacities and inclinations,

Nine vehicles arose, may their wishes be fulfilled!

 

May all your dharma aspirations be realised!

 

Rex

Edited March 6, 2008 by rex

[林愛偉]

Hi Lin,

 

Thanks for your Sutra recommendations which can be found online and studied.

 

Now this is just an observation and not a criticism but from the valuable Sutras you mentioned I believe that you do not 'just cultivate Buddhism' but a particular cultural form of Buddhism, namely Chinese Mahayana Chan.

 

From a historical point of view Mahayana Sutras are 'controversial' in that even though they claim to be the words of the Buddha, they cannot with authority be proven to be so. The only historically authoritative Sutras, i.e. those which can be actually traced back to the Buddha himself are those found in the Pali Sutra Pitaka. So from this perspective your notion of the 'Proper Dharma' is based on faith - as is of course Tibetan Mahayana and it's subset, vajrayana.

 

So while I respect your Buddhist faith, I do not hold your criticisms of Tibetan methods as authoritative pronouncements on the value of another Buddhist method, but rather as the considered opinion of a careful cultivator who finds them unsuitable, for perhaps himself, and through observation, those around him. This does not mean that they are unsuitable for all though.

 

I am reminded of a prayer I often recite:

 

In the realization of the great primordial purity, free from limits or direction,

There are no distinct vehicles to be enumerated,

Yet conceptually, in consideration of students' capacities and inclinations,

Nine vehicles arose, may their wishes be fulfilled!

 

May all your dharma aspirations be realised!

 

Rex

 

 

 

I just cultivate Buddhism. If it is called Chan, so be it, Secret school, Pure Land, etc, it is still Buddhism. I don't advocate the making of different schools in Buddhism, yet I don't disown those methods either. It is of the same education, why bother separating them?

 

Chan cultivation of Mind to Mind transmission came directly from Shakyamuni Buddha. There is no Mahayana Chan. There is only Chan, or Dhyana. It is unfortunate that in history people have caused separations in the expedients.

 

Labels take away from it, and hold expectations upon it. This is what causes the "authoritative" views on which is proper; Mahayana, or Hinayana.

 

Mahayana cultivation is part of Buddhism, so is Hinayana. To deny either one as the Buddha Dharma would not be the cultivation of Proper Dharma. I don't know why people break things up into schools, but it is all Buddhism at the origin.

 

I understand what you are saying, because this debate is in the Buddhist School. It shouldn't be a debate. What I can tell you is that Faith in Buddhism, without investigating the Buddha Dharma is against the Proper teachings of the Buddha.

 

This talk of Mahayana not being an "authority" is simply to divert the cultivators from the Buddha Dharma. The only "authority" on the Dharma, is the Dharma itself.

 

I wouldn't use my time wondering between schools of thought and their issues. I would simply investigate the Dharma. Both Mahayana and Hinayana are of Buddhism. They should both be investigate equally, and if not, then investigated according to one's mind. But debates about its "authority" only cause more false thinking.

 

More so, Mahayana teachings have been tools for great masters both in India, China, Korea, Japan and America. There must be something "right" with the Sutras. The masters who cultivated Mahayana expedients were many, and proved beyond a reasonable doubt that these Sutras are Proper Buddha Dharma.

 

 

I wouldn't get into a debate about it, yet I must say that I do not hold to faith without investigating. To do otherwise, is to be blinded by false thinking (blind-faith), and blind-faith is not the Buddha Dharma.

 

On my "criticism" of Tibetan methods it is through experience of being in their presence. It doesn't suit me to take refuge in a teacher as well as the Triple Jewel. not to say that Tibetan Buddhism and its cultivations of the Vajra family, directly in and of the Vajra family, are wrong. The Vajra family would be the Medicine Buddha and the two Bodhisattvas at his side; Sunlight and Moonlight Bodhisattva. Their cultivation is something in and of itself...really wonderful, but things get added in certain cultures.

 

The Dharma has a function. Realize the function and cultivate.

With Patience, Compassion and Wisdom as the foundation,

what is not the Proper Dharma?

 

Thanks for your wishes brother.

 

Peace and Blessings,

Lin

Edited March 7, 2008 by 林愛偉

[nick]

I know this topic is over a year old at the time of my post. However, there are some sentiments here that seem a little incomplete, in regards to the legitimacy of Mahayana and Vajrayana views and practices of Tibetan Buddhism (and others, I might add, such as Zen Buddhism).

 

If you want to know about the integrity of the Tibetan Buddhist schools, just take a look at the Dalai Lama. Go and google some things about him, his life, and his outlook. All schools in Tibetan Buddhism look to him as their center.

 

The underpinnings of Tibetan Buddhism is, fundamentally and intrinsically, the Four Noble Truths and all primary Sutras taught by the Buddha. Yes, all 84,000 teachings are included in the core text of every Monastery. Along side the original teachings is another set of texts - the commentaries on the originals.

 

Along side these are works by major Indian masters, who developed Buddhist work after Buddha's Paranirvana and before Buddhism was taken into Tibet. Scholars such as Atisha, and Shantideva, Naropa and Tilopa (to name a few).

 

Nalanda was a great university in India. Many, many great scholars and practitioners learned and taught there, from all over the planet. If you want to look at Tibetan Buddhism and where it came from, you need to look at Nalanda:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda

 

The Four Nobal Truths underpin all Buddhist view. The fundamental teaching from the Four Nobel Truths can pretty much be boiled down to Buddha's core realisation: that suffering comes from a misunderstanding of the true nature of existence. The true nature being that all things arise as impermanently assembled phenomenon and do not inherently exist of their own volition. And, from this misunderstanding arises a mental state that continues to block opportunity for insight into this nature of existance. That mental state is ignorance.

 

Every branch of Buddhism teaches this fundamental teaching. To have direct insight into the reality that all things arise as assembled phenomenon is THE goal of every Buddhist practice, whether Hinayana, Mahayana or Vajrayana. When Buddha saw this reality, really saw it, he became Enlightened.

 

Surrounding these core teachings, in every culture, are religious frameworks. These arise over very long periods of time, with much peer review and refinement from qualified practitioners. Many commentaries reflect culturally tuned versions and translations of the teachings. Or, teachings refined for certain types of mentalities or views. Why? Because everyone starts with ego, with issues, with clouded minds that cannot grasp what Buddha grasped. It is just too damn hard to let go of yourself and see that everything just doesn't exist as it appears. Not even atoms are self arising and do not inherently exist alone. They too arise and disolve into the rest of all assembled phenomenon.

 

So, there you have it. All of this is taught in all traditions, and just because one takes the Bodhisattva Vows (Mahayana Buddhism) it does not mean one no longer observes the Individual Liberation Vows (Hinayana Buddhism).

 

Also, when looking Tibetan Buddhism, you need to look further than what you see as it is consumed by the West. Diamond Way is from one teacher, and he is a Westerner. How long have Westerners been involved in this tradition? A tradition which is essentially Asian.

 

Tibetan Buddhism acknowledges the significant role that the Guru has in a student's learning. Key to this relationship is the development of devotion. However, devotion is an increadible state of mind that can smash negativity and allow great discipline to practice the approprate teachings which lead that individual to seeing that reality of assembled phenomenon. Yet, particularly in the West, students just fixate on the teacher.

 

Milarepa was crying out to Marpa one day while meditating, lamenting his yearning for his teacher, as he sat in his cave in the complete and utter isolation of a Tibetan mountain. Marpa appeared to him in a dream and basically told him to stop snivling and get on with the practice. Such was Milarepa's devotion to Marpa that he just dissolved any sense of loneliness and longing and pushed through.

 

So, while humans come and go (teachers) the essential core teaching always remains pure.

[yabyum24]

I think it also weakens the inquiring mind, our good sceptical mind, which is very important to evolve in my opinion

This is a good stance to have.