Connection between tao and christianity

[flowing hands]

On 12/9/2019 at 2:51 PM, Zork said:

Holiness is only declared Post-mortem. Anyone claiming this while alive is anything but. I know of no spiritual teacher of any significant worth saying that.

 

/

Edited June 24, 2020 by flowing hands

[ilumairen]

19 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

I think it's more of a surplus of arrogance

 

Oh sweet irony...

 

[ilumairen]

On 12/3/2019 at 6:44 PM, chaugnar said:

My friend is married to a christian.he is struggling to integrate belief systems.he asked if there was a link of tao to christ.i said yes there is.im seeking more info.

 

There is no substitionary atonement in Daoism as far as I'm aware, and it would actually be easier for me to draw parallels between Catholicism and Daoism with say the intercession of the Saints and some immortals, the ritualistic aspects of both as religions, and the return to God or Dao as "goal" - however spurious some of these correlations may appear to others. 

 

Focusing more broadly than looking for a resurrected god figure may be a simpler and more easily traversed route. And I'm going to tag both @ralis and @steve, who have shared information and resources before regarding the work and understanding of Jesuit priests whose writings may provide some assistance for your friend in finding common ground and a way to bridge the divide. 

 

[silent thunder]

I experience life from the center of my awareness.

Life is experienced through my awareness of it.

 

I live in the same world as all of you, yet we do not experience life the same.

We are all part of this fluid process, yet we have our unique perspective and experience of it.

I live in the same world as earthworms, yet we do not experience the same world, in the same manner.

This is a wonderous benefit, not a detraction to me.

 

I am no longer diminished when others share how differently they experience life.  I'm usually grateful.

So long as no violence is perpetrated.

 

To me, awareness is akin to a massive gem, with as many facets as there are individual experiences of it.

Each facet representing each awareness.  Indra's Net in a

 

Some facets are nigh on identical to my own and kinship is instant and effortless... while others are anti-podal, diametrically opposed... yet they are no less 'real' than my own.

 

Should someone find Christ represented in a Tree, or a poem by Rumi, or some aspect of the Taoist Canon, is up to them to explore this reality through their awareness.  I'm confused when folks can't allow others to describe their experience of life as their awareness filters it.

 

I appreciate everyone in this thread for spending some of their precious time here.

The older I manage to become, the more precious I realize my connections are... for each day, I have (seemingly) less energy to spend, so each bit that is offered becomes more treasured.

 

Agreement is something I no longer have inertia for.  If I agree with an opinion, or take on life, great.  If I do not... well, reality and awareness are gratefully vast enough to encompass all, with room to spare.

 

Thanks for sharing your passions everyone.  I'll pass on the more virulent, and violent aspects though and so, will take my leave for now.

 

 

[SirPalomides]

Well now that I know Flowing Hands is a Maoshan wizard, I think we’d all better be a bit more respectful. He has chosen to vent his frustration with long internet rants when in fact he could be sending ghosts to torment us or transforming our Christmas trees into bloodthirsty demons from the pits of Diyu. Let us incur no further wrath but thank his forbearance.

[ilumairen]

On 12/7/2019 at 12:28 PM, flowing hands said:

 

Complete nonsense I'm afraid. Gospel of St Thomas has been rewritten anyway, the original never had anything about Jesus resurrecting.

 

On 12/7/2019 at 2:18 PM, Jeff said:

 

I think you may be confusing the Gospel of Thomas with some other book/gospel.  The Gospel of Thomas was found at Nag Hammadi in 1945 with a large number of ancient Christian documents. The Gospel of Thomas does not describe (or deny) Jesus’s divinity.

 

I suspect he meant to refer to the Gospel of Mark. Here is a brief overview of why the claim (attributed to the wrong gospel) could be considered spurious:

 

https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2012/04/resurrection-in-the-gospel-of-mark

 

And regarding other remarks made in this thread, here's a very short piece regarding "Zeus the most high," as a shifting point from polytheism to monotheism in ancient Greece well before the birth of Christ. 

 

https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/technology/temple-to-zeus-unearthed-at-mount-olympus-110693

 

The above being, or having been of, personal interest to me, and something(s) I felt like sharing, while I certainly acknowledge this contribution as veering from the intended focus of this thread..

 

[Walker]

7 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

Of course you've travelled extensively, met every single person in the world, summed them up with your fantastic knowledge and made this declaration? Shamans are called holymen/women and the term means different things to different cultures. So an Indian Holyman for instance, is the same as a North American Holyman?

 

Hey.

 

Hey.

 

Flowing Hands.

 

Hey.

 

It is recorded all over the Daoist Canon in the stories of immortals from all the different lineages throughout all the different eras that they worked various marvels and miracles, and this is why people believed them when they made proclamations about cultivating the Dao that only a highly achieved master could make.

 

In other words, none of them said, "I'm an immortal, take my word for it!"

 

This is quite similar to the stories of saints in Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox Christianity, actually.

 

But you say, in as many words: "I am a fallen immortal holy man who talks to Laozi and the Monkey King. Take my word for it."

 

Why should we take your word for it? Can you offer not one shred of evidence to lend credence to your grand claims?

 

For instance, you could appear in my dreams as Wang Chongyang did with Ma Danyang, and then discuss with us in public what you said to me in the dream. I will be honest. If you can accurately describe the dream, I will not lie here.

 

Or you could ask Laozi to which Daoist lineage to I belong, what my Daoist name and generation is, where I was formally inducted, and what other lineages I have been taught in. All-knowing Taishang Laojun, I am certain, could easily obtain this information, if not directly, then with the help of a secretarial immortal in the heavenly bureaucracy.

 

Again, if you come up with accurate answers, I will admit as much publicly here. This will surely reduce the incidences of people writing you off as delusional and help you to offer immortal teachings to the board.

[doc benway]

6 hours ago, ilumairen said:

 

There is no substitionary atonement in Daoism as far as I'm aware, and it would actually be easier for me to draw parallels between Catholicism and Daoism with say the intercession of the Saints and some immortals, the ritualistic aspects of both as religions, and the return to God or Dao as "goal" - however spurious some of these correlations may appear to others. 

 

Focusing more broadly than looking for a resurrected god figure may be a simpler and more easily traversed route. And I'm going to tag both @ralis and @steve, who have shared information and resources before regarding the work and understanding of Jesuit priests whose writings may provide some assistance for your friend in finding common ground and a way to bridge the divide. 

 

 

Hi illumairen and chaugnar,

I haven't read this thread but can recommend the teachings of two masters that help bridge the gap between Christianity and other traditions, particularly Asian, at least for me.

 

Anthony Demello was an enlightened master, Jesuit, raised Hindu, and trained psychologist. To show just how deep he was, all of his writings were banned as heresy by Joseph Ratzinger before he became Pope Benedict XVI. Demello's book Awareness is a favorite, as a collection of his talks called Wake Up to Life (of which Awareness is an exerpt). Both changed my life.

 

John O'Donohue was a priest who left the order to return to Celtic roots and dove into spirituality through deeply personal teachings and wonderfully evocative poetry. Anam Cara and Wisdom of the Celtic World are fine examples of his teachings and art. 

 

There are others but these are my two favorites.

 

A few quotes:

 

“As soon as you look at the world through an ideology you are finished. No reality fits an ideology. Life is beyond that. … That is why people are always searching for a meaning to life… Meaning is only found when you go beyond meaning. Life only makes sense when you perceive it as mystery and it makes no sense to the conceptualizing mind.”
― Anthony de Mello

 

"And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discover a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you."

---- John O'Donohue

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by steve

[SirPalomides]

Also Michael Saso was a Jesuit cum Daoshi cum Tendai priest, and I think he’s back with the Jesuits now.

[Taomeow]

17 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

Also Michael Saso was a Jesuit cum Daoshi cum Tendai priest, and I think he’s back with the Jesuits now.

 

It is my understanding that no Jesuit ever leaves the order.  Whatever else they do is done in the service of the order.

 

[Cookie Monster]

.

Edited May 4, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Zhongyongdaoist]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

2 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

Also Michael Saso was a Jesuit cum Daoshi cum Tendai priest, and I think he’s back with the Jesuits now.

 

It is my understanding that no Jesuit ever leaves the order.  Whatever else they do is done in the service of the order.

 

Quote

Saso has translated Japanese and Chinese religious texts and related works and has written several books on Asian religion. His knowledge of Taoism and Buddhism comes from within those communities: he is an initiated Taoist priest of the Zhengyi school as well as an ordained Tendai Buddhist priest.

His first ordination, however, was as a Jesuit. He left the order in the 1960s, and in 1968 married Nariko Akimoto, with whom he had two daughters. The marriage was later annulled. Saso requested reinstatement to the Catholic priesthood in 1998 and is now connected with the New Life Center in Carmel, California, as a priest in the Diocese of San Jose. (Wikipedia article on Michael Saso)

 

[Taomeow]

http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-oath.html

 

[gendao]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-oath.html

Quote

I furthermore promise and declare that I will, when opportunity present, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do, to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth; and that I will spare neither age, sex or condition; and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics, rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the walls, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race. That when the same cannot be done openly, I will secretly use the poisoned cup, the strangulating cord, the steel of the poniard or the leaden bullet, regardless of the honor, rank, dignity, or authority of the person or persons, whatever may be their condition in life, either public or private, as I at any time may be directed so to do by any agent of the Pope or Superior of the Brotherhood of the Holy Faith, of the Society of Jesus.

Everything on this page merely confirms all of my earlier posts, huh?

 

Christianity is literally some psychopathic, sicko, "horror show" meme warfare that lobotomized the "feminine right" side of its followers brains to cockblock them from 3D spiritual thought...and tool them into overwriting all the TRUE HISTORY of the planet, while terraforming it for their Anunnaki puppetmasters.  Like, I'm seriously not exaggerating AT ALL with some "super edgy take"...but just literally observing how the emperor is butt nekkid!  I can't even make this REAL shyt up...it IRL makes Halloween look like Christmas!

 

And of course all the "evolved" Christians namedropped on this page PREDICTABLY FIT MY MOLD and merely cling to that identity out of cultural loyalty...despite only believing in a few select needles in its haystack while borrowing heavily from other "heretical" traditions for the actual meat on their bones...  But continually whitewashing, apologizing for, and soft-pedaling this weaponized, BDSM tribal cult is extremely cowardly and doing a huge disservice to all of its victims - past, present, and future (including this entire native planet).

 

Colonization of this planet started with spiritual colonization...

So, decolonization of this planet must also start with spiritual decolonization!!!

Edited December 10, 2019 by gendao

[Taomeow]

12 minutes ago, gendao said:

Everything on this page merely confirms all of my earlier posts, huh?

 

Not exactly.  What I posted is a link to a document recorded in the Congressional Record of the U.S. (House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913, pp. 3215-3216).  It is horrible, and it is factual, and it is the tip of the iceberg the size of the Snowball Earth. 

 

What you post is...  well, it's usually hard to tell which part is fact, which part is emotional reaction (sometimes justified but often just lashing out at scapegoats of your choice, for lack of grasp on the real -- albeit elusive -- targets worthy of your wrath).  Part accurate, part misattributed to the wrong or else unprovable perpetrator, part Malthusian, part biased not against the wrongdoers but precisely against the targets they have conveniently provided.  Part insightful but unfortunately usually buried under a mountain of stretches, uneducated guesses presented as fact not hypothesis, presented as axioms, and so on.  

 

In other words, if you're going to present a "general theory of everything," you need to take some extra care not to discredit the little sparks of truth with mountains of disregard for any and all more fruitful but far more labor-intensive methods of obtaining it.  Also presentation...  even if you were right about everything, it is for a reason that no one tries to present any theory by condensing all the material of a vast discipline into one slide show and expecting Ph.D.s with full grasp of that discipline to leave the auditorium once that slide show is repeated enough times.  

[Zork]

12 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

Of course you've travelled extensively, met every single person in the world, summed them up with your fantastic knowledge and made this declaration? Shamans are called holymen/women and the term means different things to different cultures. So an Indian Holyman for instance, is the same as a North American Holyman?

Maybe you should change your selfproclaimed title into "Strawman master". This is the definition of the strawman argument logical fallacy.

If you are a shaman declare yourself as such. If you are a taoist priest do likewise.

Quote

 

holy man - person of exceptional holiness  

holy person, saint, angel

Buddha - one who has achieved a state of perfect enlightenment

fakeer, fakir, faqir, faquir - a Muslim or Hindu mendicant monk who is regarded as a holy man

good person - a person who is good to other people

 

You don't fall into any of the above categories. So again why should anyone give a f**k about what you are saying since you clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about and are clearly lying or misleading about your status?

[Walker]

51 minutes ago, gendao said:

Everything on this page merely confirms all of my earlier posts, huh?

 

Christianity is literally some psychopathic, sicko, "horror show" meme warfare that lobotomized the "feminine right" side of its followers brains to cockblock them from 3D spiritual thought...and tool them into overwriting all the TRUE HISTORY of the planet, while terraforming it for their Anunnaki puppetmasters.  Like, I'm seriously not exaggerating AT ALL with some "super edgy take"...but just literally observing how the emperor is butt nekkid!  I can't even make this REAL shyt up...it IRL makes Halloween look like Christmas!

 

And of course all the "evolved" Christians namedropped on this page PREDICTABLY FIT MY MOLD and merely cling to that identity out of cultural loyalty...despite only believing in a few select needles in its haystack while borrowing heavily from other "heretical" traditions for the actual meat on their bones...  But continually whitewashing, apologizing for, and soft-pedaling this weaponized, BDSM tribal cult is extremely cowardly and doing a huge disservice to all of its victims - past, present, and future (including this entire native planet).

 

Colonization of this planet started with spiritual colonization...

So, decolonization of this planet must also start with spiritual decolonization!!!

 

Enough with the anti-Christian bigotry!

 

There are indeed monsters within Christianity. With your psychological make-up, if power is ever placed in your hands, you will become terrifyingly like them!

 

Read what Taomeow just said to you 100 times until it seeps into your bones!

[Zork]

1 minute ago, Walker said:

 

Enough with the anti-Christian bigotry!

 

There are indeed monsters within Christianity. With your psychological make-up, if power is ever placed in your hands, you will become terrifyingly like them!

 

Read what Taomeow just said to you 100 times until it seeps into your bones!

+1 to that. You can't identify a belief or ideology with the people that follow it. A belief is idealistic and people are imperfect. 

[Earl Grey]

6 hours ago, Zork said:

+1 to that. You can't identify a belief or ideology with the people that follow it. A belief is idealistic and people are imperfect. 

Such logic he uses to explain his enlightened understanding to an elementary student is as follows:

 

Mathematics: 1+1= colonialism and every problem!

 

English: this is the language of colonists and they use it to control us with their lies!

 

History: These are the lies of colonists who want us to forget what actually happened!

 

Geography: Colonists ruined the word and divided it!

 

Art: Colonists make us enjoy their Christian art and it’s all terrible!

 

Biology: Colonists cut people up and aliens made it hard for us to see our origins by blocking our perceptions!

 

Physics: Colonists won’t let us fly!

 

Chemistry: Colonists are making drugs illegal!

 

Lunch: This is food colonists stole from local people!

 

Recess: Colonists are distracting us from what’s important and telling us stupid shit is fun!

Edited December 10, 2019 by Earl Grey

[Walker]

.

Edited December 10, 2019 by Walker

[SirPalomides]

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

http://www.reformation.org/jesuit-oath.html

 

This is a forgery pretty typical of Protestant conspiracy theories about Jesuits. This is Protocols of the Elders of Zion type stuff. A lot of documents end up in the congressional records without being credible.

Edited December 10, 2019 by SirPalomides

[Apech]

On 12/3/2019 at 11:44 PM, chaugnar said:

My friend is married to a christian.he is struggling to integrate belief systems.he asked if there was a link of tao to christ.i said yes there is.im seeking more info.

 

 

hello chaugnar,

 

I hope you are not put off by some of this dialogue

 

I suppose there are two possible types of link you could look for.  One is historical i.e. did ideas from Daoism spread to the Middle East by 0 A.D.? And the other is comparative - can you compare or even reconcile the two systems and still make sense.

 

On the first point - although it might seem a stretch - it is perfectly possible via the Silk Route and so on - that ideas from China found their way to the European ancient world.  Some people even attribute all or a lot of the Western Tradition to China ... I personally have a problem with this - but I have no problem with the idea of Chinese influence on the world from which Christianity emerged.  To some people some of what Jesus taught does not seem very Judaic but this can be explained by influence from the Greek Stoics and so on.  In fact there is a strong theory which shows that Buddhist ideas via Alexander the Great's invasion of Northern India influenced Greek schools of thought.   Then of course you could say that Buddhism once it came out of India, it too was influenced by Chinese thought.  So you could suggest if you wanted to some historical cultural link between Christianity and Daoism and not be thought completely barking mad.

 

In terms of comparing the systems - they are of course very different.  One is determinedly theistic while the other seems to see the absolute as a non-personal natural energy or way.  So to start with there is the 'God problem' to deal with.  They are also ethically very different - not that you would end up behaving that differently perhaps - but more that one suggests a moral plan handed down as God's will - and the other that morality only arises because immorality exists (to paraphrase) - two views which seem completely at odds.  All this points to big difficulties.

 

Of course mystically you could say that whatever spiritual state, enlightenment, oneness or whatever arises is the same whatever system you practice ... i.e. it is not dependent on what you do but rather on what it is.  So at that level I guess you could find common ground between a Daoist and a Christian mystic.

 

(I'll spare you any more of my waffle and wish you good luck).

 

Cheers.

[Taomeow]

6 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

This is a forgery pretty typical of Protestant conspiracy theories about Jesuits. This is Protocols of the Elders of Zion type stuff. A lot of documents end up in the congressional records without being credible.

 

That "Protocols" is a fake I can prove not because someone told me so but because I know the players in the creation of the forgery, the dates, events, names of the people in charge, their real affiliations and agendas, the name of the person tasked with the actual writing, and the royal seal of approval on the product that propelled it into wide circulation.  Though the names of all the people killed as the outcome I don't know, I can only give you the numbers -- pogroms were the first reaction to the dissemination of the first edition and they were massive. 

 

That the "Extreme Oath" is a fake you can prove by...  dropping the "conspiracy theory" label or by something similar to what I could put on the table if we were talking about the "Protocols?"  

 

Regardless.  If you were to ever get interested in the study of ponerology (an involuntary hobby of mine), you might find that looking into Jesuit behind-the-scenes accomplishments proves a rather worthwhile inquiry.  I can recommend a dozen or so books.  

[SirPalomides]

29 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

That "Protocols" is a fake I can prove not because someone told me so but because I know the players in the creation of the forgery, the dates, events, names of the people in charge, their real affiliations and agendas, the name of the person tasked with the actual writing, and the royal seal of approval on the product that propelled it into wide circulation.  Though the names of all the people killed as the outcome I don't know, I can only give you the numbers -- pogroms were the first reaction to the dissemination of the first edition and they were massive. 

 

That the "Extreme Oath" is a fake you can prove by...  dropping the "conspiracy theory" label or by something similar to what I could put on the table if we were talking about the "Protocols?"  

 

Regardless.  If you were to ever get interested in the study of ponerology (an involuntary hobby of mine), you might find that looking into Jesuit behind-the-scenes accomplishments proves a rather worthwhile inquiry.  I can recommend a dozen or so books.  

 

The forger's name was Robert Ware and he published it in 1689 at a time in England when anti-Catholic polemics were hot and purported secret documents were guaranteed bestsellers. It's a fake. And while this particular fake may or may not have had an immediate effect it is no secret that English anti-Catholicism fed into their genocide of the Irish. As for who takes this forged document seriously today--- go to the front page of the very page you linked to, http://www.reformation.org/. That's the sort of person who pushes this document as genuine nowadays.

 

Now I have to ask what this has to do with Michael Saso. If the implication was that he left the church, got married, and got ordained in Taoist and Buddhist lineages as an infiltrator for the pursuit of some nefarious Jesuitical agenda, I would say that that is outright slander. You didn't say that though, so I'm sure you did not have anything of the sort on your mind when you raised this forged Jesuit oath as purely a historical curiosity.

Edited December 10, 2019 by SirPalomides

[Taomeow]

32 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

 

The forger's name was Robert Ware and he published it in 1689 at a time in England when anti-Catholic polemics were hot and purported secret documents were guaranteed bestsellers. It's a fake. And while this particular fake may or may not have had an immediate effect it is no secret that English anti-Catholicism fed into their genocide of the Irish. As for who takes this forged document seriously today--- go to the front page of the very page you linked to, http://www.reformation.org/. That's the sort of person who pushes this document as genuine nowadays.

 

Now I have to ask what this has to do with Michael Saso. If the implication was that he left the church, got married, and got ordained in Taoist and Buddhist lineages as an infiltrator for the pursuit of some nefarious Jesuitical agenda, I would say that that is outright slander. You didn't say that though, so I'm sure you did not have anything of the sort on your mind when you raised this forged Jesuit oath as purely a historical curiosity.

 

Ah, good -- you started building a straw man to burn at the stake, but then changed your mind, which is prudent.  

 

Michael Saso is a good friend of mine.  Whether he ever "really" left the order, I can ask.  

 

I meant what I meant in my initial entry, but perhaps I should have added the word "really" for clarity.  A Jesuit never "really" leaves the order.  Not that he never "formally," "officially" leaves but "really" -- which in the case of Michael Saso serves to prove this opinion.  Does his example serve the order?  Why absolutely.  Whether this service is "nefarious" or not, I'm not the one who said or implied that -- the word "service" does not equal "service to a nefarious agenda," and the word "service" is what I used.  In some cases, definitely nefarious, I've read enough accounts of precisely the infiltrations toward destruction from quite enough sources.  Whereas someone who is sincere may just undertake "building bridges," incorporating ideas and practices from far and away denominations into something more "on speaking terms," looking to unite rather than divide.  Which is, again, exactly the case with Michael Saso.  Is every member of a different denomination supposed to see it as a positive?  That's debatable and definitely not the case with me, but then, I'm a seeker of separate shelves in the pantry and in the crafts cabinet for a jar of strawberry jam and a jar of sewing needles, not for Strawberry Jam With Sewing Needles jars.  

 

As for what's fake, it can get hard to prove because the proof of something being fake can also be faked, no?  The context is what proves.  Thanks for some context, I'll look into that.