President Trump

[Jim D.]

This man has been dogged since the time he took office. He has never been allowed to do his job, really. I admire is tenacity under adversarial conditions. I like that he has gone after other super powers and held them fiscally accountable. I am not concerned about his relationship with Ukraine. None of this would have made a difference if he were not despised by those that oppose him as a person. He is not a politician and I like that. I like that he calls out the media. I like that he confronted China on their "Monopoly" in the free market. I like that he wants to get along with Putin. Whether he likes England or not is off no concern to our economy, or to me. He is a business man trying to do what he knows best as a business. 

 

As far as his mental health status, whatever that means, Trump has not been any different than John Kennedy when it came to women. And it was over looked, and forgiven. Richard Nixon, "Tricky Dickie" and we have people spending tax payers money to go after him. 

 

Have you ever tried running a government whose opposing party, the Democrats, hate your guts because you got the job, and they didn't.

 

You want to talk about dishonesty, what about the Clintons, the Kennedys, the Biden's, Herbert Hoover, Richard J. Daley, Giuliani…just politicians over all. 

 

Just sayin...

 

[silent thunder]

goodbye Jim

[Earl Grey]

1 hour ago, Jim D. said:

This man has been dogged since the time he took office. He has never been allowed to do his job, really. I admire is tenacity under adversarial conditions. I like that he has gone after other super powers and held them fiscally accountable. I am not concerned about his relationship with Ukraine. None of this would have made a difference if he were not despised by those that oppose him as a person. He is not a politician and I like that. I like that he calls out the media. I like that he confronted China on their "Monopoly" in the free market. I like that he wants to get along with Putin. Whether he likes England or not is off no concern to our economy, or to me. He is a business man trying to do what he knows best as a business. 

 

As far as his mental health status, whatever that means, Trump has not been any different than John Kennedy when it came to women. And it was over looked, and forgiven. Richard Nixon, "Tricky Dickie" and we have people spending tax payers money to go after him. 

 

Have you ever tried running a government whose opposing party, the Democrats, hate your guts because you got the job, and they didn't.

 

You want to talk about dishonesty, what about the Clintons, the Kennedys, the Biden's, Herbert Hoover, Richard J. Daley, Giuliani…just politicians over all. 

 

Just sayin...

 

You probably never read this mandate from Sean the owner before you came back to post, but you probably should if you want to stay here.

 

Or you can leave.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Earl Grey

[dawei]

 

[Jim D.]

Thanks Earl Grey. I was warned already.

[Earl Grey]

Because you know that this isn't a dialogue or up for debate from Sean, it's also very easy to pick apart a lot of what you're saying, which is really based off of personal, normative values rather than positive facts and information.

 

To save time and make sure the forum does not get even one chance to allow the right-wing bullshit and Trump apologists to grow and fester here like fungus from the dank, sweaty corners full of rot and foetor found in dirty gym locker rooms, I will respond partially point-by-point here.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

This man has been dogged since the time he took office.

 

Rightfully so--he was already a controversial individual prior to his political debut, even without the leaked information about him or the meddlesome manner in which he was brought into power. Logical fallacy: appeal to pity.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

He has never been allowed to do his job, really.

 

He has an abysmal understanding of what his job is given that people are constantly reminding him the limits of his powers, which he has either outright ignored or had complete disinterest in honoring either the letter or the spirit of the law. Logical fallacy: appeal to pity.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

I admire is tenacity under adversarial conditions

 

Much like admiring the child who begins to lie more and more even though his hands and teeth show that he's had access to the cookie jar and his lies become all the more entertaining because he honestly believes the appeal to absurdity and audacity will win. Logical fallacy: appeal to pity.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

I like that he has gone after other super powers and held them fiscally accountable

 

Which speaks to his and his supporters absence of understanding 1) how those funds are allocated, 2) the voluntary desire and policy of the US since the Cold War and post-Cold War order to have more power and influence through its dollars, 3) the relationships built on trust and reciprocity, which is measured with more than solely financial contributions. Logical fallacy: sweeping generalization.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

I am not concerned about his relationship with Ukraine.

 

You should, given that he was not only using aid promised by the country for his individual gain, but both harming the existing relationship with Ukraine and endangering them, and damaging the integrity of diplomacy. Logical fallacy: wishful thinking.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

None of this would have made a difference if he were not despised by those that oppose him as a person.

 

Yes, it would have. Logical fallacy: poisoning the well.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

He is not a politician and I like that.

 

He very much is a politician based on both the tactics he employs and possesses the characteristics of the people he claimed to be "draining the swamp" of before. Logical fallacies: style over substance, hasty generalization, logical inconsistency, missing the point.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

I like that he calls out the media.

 

The media as a whole is not the enemy, and this is common rhetoric used in highly authoritarian regimes with extreme punitive responses to criticism. Parts of the media are questionable, but to deny facts and research is not helpful for a thriving society or community. Logical fallacy: poisoning the well.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

I like that he confronted China on their "Monopoly" in the free market.

 

His confrontation has been more damaging financially to US consumers than it has been to China. Logical fallacy: hasty generalization.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

I like that he wants to get along with Putin.

 

Hitler and Stalin, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G. First comes Czechoslovakia, then comes Austria, then comes Poland and an end to their marriage of convenience! Look at Syria now. 

 

I wonder how people felt when they saw the US relationship with Saddam Hussein in the 1980s before retrospect and even with all the information about his dubious rule. Or with Pinochet and all the other Latin American strongmen. Logical fallacies: appeal to emotion, appeal to pity, wishful thinking.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

Whether he likes England or not is off no concern to our economy, or to me

 

And yet it does affect the American and global economy. Whiskey alone has been affected by Brexit and both Scots and Americans are affected by it. Logical fallacy: appeal to spite.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

He is a business man trying to do what he knows best as a business. 

 

A businessman who refuses to release his own taxes, has declared bankruptcy multiple times, has had a documented history of abuses against tenants and partnerships, including Trump University and Deutschebank. Logical fallacies: wishful thinking, appeal to emotion, appeal to authority, false equivalence, false conclusion.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

As far as his mental health status, whatever that means, Trump has not been any different than John Kennedy when it came to women.

 

Logical fallacies: false equivalence, poisoning the well, false conclusion, appeal to emotion.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

And it was over looked, and forgiven.

 

Depends on whom you ask. Logical fallacy: wishful thinking.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

Richard Nixon, "Tricky Dickie" and we have people spending tax payers money to go after him. 

 

Logical fallacies: appeal to pity, appeal to ridicule, conspiracy theory...

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

Have you ever tried running a government whose opposing party, the Democrats, hate your guts because you got the job, and they didn't.

 

Logical fallacies: appeal to fear, appeal to pity, conspiracy theory, poisoning the well, wishful thinking.

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

You want to talk about dishonesty, what about the Clintons, the Kennedys, the Biden's, Herbert Hoover, Richard J. Daley, Giuliani…just politicians over all. 

 

There is no question that they have also had their fair share of dubious behavior, but not at the level of Trump. Logical fallacies: false equivalence, begging the question, appeal to fear, appeal to pity, conspiracy theory, hasty generalization, missing the point, repetition, slippery slope, strawman, false analogy...

 

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

Just sayin...

 

Me too. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Earl Grey

[thelerner]

This is like what the old Talk Trump thread was like, except that one leaned more proTrump (and at times alt right) and went on for 250-300 pages..100s anyway. 

 

Wasnt our site at its finest, quite the opposite. It's a seductive topic but we can't seem to discuss it without anger and division. 

 

It'd be cool if we could. The sides are so far apart. Probably the only wsy to do it is piece meal. Judging the policy and action independent of the actor. 

 

 

[Zork]

5 hours ago, Jim D. said:

He has never been allowed to do his job, really.

Why? Who is stopping him from doing his job as president?

The house of representatives? Nope. They are doing their job. The president isn't a dictator. The senate, the house of representatives and the supreme court were created to rein in the power of the president which otherwise would be absolute.

 

Now on the subject of him doing his job: I liked him being elected instead of Hillary only because we wouldn't be talking right now otherwise after WW3 would have started 3 years ago.

What is China doing wrong according to the WTO which is the one responsible to judge? Nothing.

What is the EU doing wrong? Nothing.

What he has done is: He has managed to get your deficit to 1tr $

He will increase inequality through tax reductions on the rich.

He will make all of former US foreign policy absurd by ignoring allies and collaborating with enemies.

 

To the untrained it looks like America is becoming great again. What is really happening is that the decline of the US already underway since Obama is speeding up....

He is trying to bring the US back to the 1900s state before it was involved in global conflicts. This is naive. Weapons production makes up a vast amount of US GDP. Without wars these industries will decline and so will the economy. It is a vicious cycle unfortunately.

[ralis]

28 minutes ago, Zork said:

Why? Who is stopping him from doing his job as president?

The house of representatives? Nope. They are doing their job. The president isn't a dictator. The senate, the house of representatives and the supreme court were created to rein in the power of the president which otherwise would be absolute.

 

Now on the subject of him doing his job: I liked him being elected instead of Hillary only because we wouldn't be talking right now otherwise after WW3 would have started 3 years ago.

What is China doing wrong according to the WTO which is the one responsible to judge? Nothing.

What is the EU doing wrong? Nothing.

What he has done is: He has managed to get your deficit to 1tr $

He will increase inequality through tax reductions on the rich.

He will make all of former US foreign policy absurd by ignoring allies and collaborating with enemies.

 

To the untrained it looks like America is becoming great again. What is really happening is that the decline of the US already underway since Obama is speeding up....

He is trying to bring the US back to the 1900s state before it was involved in global conflicts. This is naive. Weapons production makes up a vast amount of US GDP. Without wars these industries will decline and so will the economy. It is a vicious cycle unfortunately.

I guess you want to be banned? Read again what Sean said regarding this!

[Zork]

6 minutes ago, ralis said:

I guess you want to be banned? Read again what Sean said regarding this!

Can you point at where i broke the rules?

Did you read everything i wrote?

[Earl Grey]

18 minutes ago, Zork said:

Can you point at where i broke the rules?

Did you read everything i wrote?

I think it’s the phrasing that confused ralis because I can see you’re not a Trump supporter, yet also remain critical of other institutions. 

[Forwards]

Please excuse my ignorant question as i don't post or keep up much with the, well... whatever is going on around here, but is the spirit of the new rules that nothing positive or beneficial can he said regarding trump or conservatives?

 

I don't goose step for either faction so i don't want to mistakenly post an offhand quip or thought (if i do post) that is incorrect

[Zork]

13 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I think it’s the phrasing that confused ralis because I can see you’re not a Trump supporter, yet also remain critical of other institutions. 

Of course i am not a trump supporter! It is obvious to anyone who takes the time to read what i wrote above.

His policies will force the states into an era of introspection and withdrawal from world problems which ultimately will do them more harm than good.

All i said was that i was glad he won over Hillary. I still believe he was the lesser evil and democrats should find someone better to lead their campaigns. In this rate Trump is headed for a second term because of the lack of any serious opposing force.

 

Does the above make any sense? If it doesn't then remember that i am not an American and have no vested interest in any of your candidates for President. All i care about is how his policies affect my state and me by extension.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Zork

[Earl Grey]

14 minutes ago, Forwards said:

Please excuse my ignorant question as i don't post or keep up much with the, well... whatever is going on around here, but is the spirit of the new rules that nothing positive or beneficial can he said regarding trump or conservatives?

 

I don't goose step for either faction so i don't want to mistakenly post an offhand quip or thought (if i do post) that is incorrect

I think it’s more the manner of which it is written, because the old guard basically gaslit everyone and promoted conspiracies that worshipped qanon and 8chan, along with something involving pizza in DC.

 

In other words: they’re asking that people don’t post the way joeblast did with his aggressive and belligerent manner and post something more critical, but erring on the safe side, it may be better to avoid the topic since it will create a lot of contention as the opening post did.

 

 I know Joe is a buddy of yours and respect that and your group, but the old thread turned into a shouting match and too much disinformation posted that poisoned the well for many here to be receptive to conservative views, and that will take time to heal. It’s made worse because those same people promoting weird values like separating kids from families and leaving them in shitty conditions were also people talking about virtue and cultivating, so it seemed like a bizarre paradox to many.

 

Here’s hoping conservative views can be said and dialogue too, but so far, most conservative views posted so far are reactionary, opinion-based, and combative, which in turn leads to butting heads.

 

It would be cool if you were someone who begins that by posting something in an eloquent and amicable manner though since I’ve seen your own posts are fairly level-headed. One possible way of healing the rift, but who knows?

[Forwards]

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I think it’s more the manner of which it is written, because the old guard basically gaslit everyone and promoted conspiracies that worshipped qanon and 8chan, along with something involving pizza in DC.

 

In other words: they’re asking that people don’t post the way joeblast did with his aggressive and belligerent manner and post something more critical, but erring on the safe side, it may be better to avoid the topic since it will create a lot of contention as the opening post did.

 

 I know Joe is a buddy of yours and respect that and your group, but the old thread turned into a shouting match and too much disinformation posted that poisoned the well for many here to be receptive to conservative views, and that will take time to heal. It’s made worse because those same people promoting weird values like separating kids from families and leaving them in shitty conditions were also people talking about virtue and cultivating, so it seemed like a bizarre paradox to many.

 

Here’s hoping conservative views can be said and dialogue too, but so far, most conservative views posted so far are reactionary, opinion-based, and combative, which in turn leads to butting heads.

 

It would be cool if you were someone who begins that by posting something in an eloquent and amicable manner though since I’ve seen your own posts are fairly level-headed. One possible way of healing the rift, but who knows?

Thanks man, i appreciate the response.

 

Joeblast is definitely bro level, I'd let him move into my house if he asked,  but politics aren't a major interest for me like they are to him.  If he mentions something i respect it as he's far from a dummy, but I'm really just waiting around for the collapse of society so i can live it up like Immortan Joe from fury road.  Joe's don't mess around lol

 

Seems like its all good for what I'll end up rambling about if i say something as long as it isnt too crazy.  Thanks again dude!

[SirPalomides]

8 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

Here’s hoping conservative views can be said and dialogue too, but so far, most conservative views posted so far are reactionary

 

Those are synonyms. I personally am quite okay with a bit of "Red Terror" being exercised by the admin, provided he's consistent about it.

[Jim D.]

I did not start this topic with the intent to argue anyone's politics, policies, or the ability to be President. I could care less about Politics because I don't have the background or interest in it. I'm  not a political person. I do care about a man's inner struggle with himself and others because I can absolutely identify. But that is it. That is far as it goes. 

 

The activity that has occurred here thus far reminds me of my curiosity with a finding a hornets nest in my backyard. My intent is to explore, the hornets intent is to defend. The hornet's agenda is to be a hornet. It lives its life that way, and that is it. But hornets have their feelings of fear and resentment. When perceiving a threat, real or imagined, they go after the threat. They even leave their scent on the victim so that other hornet supporters will add to the agony of the victim. In psychological terms this is called mass hysteria.  You see, the hornet never stops to think about questioning how it is that the human or otherwise stopped to take a look. They don't notice the affect of the curious or the honest motive. They just want to attack and get it over with...this behavior brings their inner world back to equilibrium, homeostasis. 

 

I was stung by hornets three times, with the third time putting me in the hospital. I now stay clear of hornets, but you never know what a safe distance is, really. But you know, I still find them interesting and important in the community of man and nature. 

[ralis]

9 hours ago, Zork said:

Why? Who is stopping him from doing his job as president?

The house of representatives? Nope. They are doing their job. The president isn't a dictator. The senate, the house of representatives and the supreme court were created to rein in the power of the president which otherwise would be absolute.

 

Now on the subject of him doing his job: I liked him being elected instead of Hillary only because we wouldn't be talking right now otherwise after WW3 would have started 3 years ago.

What is China doing wrong according to the WTO which is the one responsible to judge? Nothing.

What is the EU doing wrong? Nothing.

What he has done is: He has managed to get your deficit to 1tr $

He will increase inequality through tax reductions on the rich.

He will make all of former US foreign policy absurd by ignoring allies and collaborating with enemies.

 

To the untrained it looks like America is becoming great again. What is really happening is that the decline of the US already underway since Obama is speeding up....

He is trying to bring the US back to the 1900s state before it was involved in global conflicts. This is naive. Weapons production makes up a vast amount of US GDP. Without wars these industries will decline and so will the economy. It is a vicious cycle unfortunately.

 

The above in bold is why I objected! Accusing Hillary of starting WWIII if elected is an alt-right talking point. The U.S. is going to hell with Trump being in office!

[SirPalomides]

3 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

The above in bold is why I objected! Accusing Hillary of starting WWIII if elected is an alt-right talking point. The U.S. is going to hell with Trump being in office!

 

Just because some fascists, for their own questionable reasons, point out the fact that Clinton and her associates are warmongers doesn't mean that it is an "alt-right talking point." If some Nazi says the sky is blue, that doesn't mean we need to contrive a detailed argument as to why it is really a subtle shade of purple.

Edited December 6, 2019 by SirPalomides

[liminal_luke]

Yikes!  I really hope we can stop talking about this.  Not because I favor one side over the other or want to impose some sort of authoritarian rule against good-intentioned conversation.  I´m not sure Jim D. meant any harm starting this thread but politics is like an invasive species -- it takes hold and crowds out everything else.

 

OK, I´ll walk away now before I contribute further to the problem.

[ralis]

17 minutes ago, SirPalomides said:

 

Just because some fascists, for their own questionable reasons, point out the fact that Clinton and her associates are warmongers doesn't mean that it is an "alt-right talking point." If some Nazi says the sky is blue, that doesn't mean we need to contrive a detailed argument as to why it is really a subtle shade of purple.

 

It is an alt-right talking point in addition to a host of other accusations towards her. It has been proven that it was Russian propaganda that gave the election to Trump!

[SirPalomides]

4 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

It is an alt-right talking point in addition to a host of other accusations towards her. It has been proven that it was Russian propaganda that gave the election to Trump!

 

I get it, everyone whose opinion is outside a very narrow centrist Democrat window is a Russian bot or a wumao or something.

 

Likewise everyone who opposed the Iraq war in 2003 was a Saddam agent or Al Qaeda sympathizer.

 

Putin just wired me 50 rubles for writing this post.

Edited December 6, 2019 by SirPalomides

[ralis]

Just now, SirPalomides said:

 

I get it, everyone whose opinion is outside a very narrow centrist Democrat window is a Russian bot or a wumao or something.

 

Likewise everyone who opposed the Iraq war in 2003 was a Saddam agent or Al Qaeda sympathizer.

 

I get the impression that you are right wing. Correct me if I am wrong and if not I will be reporting you for a rule transgression.

[SirPalomides]

2 minutes ago, ralis said:

 

I get the impression that you are right wing. Correct me if I am wrong and if not I will be reporting you for a rule transgression.

 

I'm a communist. You liberals are just as bad as Trump supporters. I think Clintonites should be banned from the forum as right-wingers.

[ralis]

1 minute ago, SirPalomides said:

 

I'm a communist. You liberals are just as bad as Trump supporters. I think Clintonites should be banned from the forum as right-wingers.

 

I never stated my political affiliation, but was stating certain facts regarding the 2016 election. If you can't deal with facts, then I suggest you leave this thread! Further, making sweeping generalizations is a poor way to discuss.