Scientific evidence of the Sarasvati River - Vedic Indus Valley Civilization

[dwai]

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/ahmedabad/scientists-find-proof-of-saraswati-existence/amp_articleshow/72432177.cms?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

[Apech]

44 minutes ago, dwai said:

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/ahmedabad/scientists-find-proof-of-saraswati-existence/amp_articleshow/72432177.cms?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

 

Interesting but not particularly new - the article doesn't source his conclusions so it's hard to comment apart from it is most probably correct as far as I can tell.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Interesting but not particularly new - the article doesn't source his conclusions so it's hard to comment apart from it is most probably correct as far as I can tell.

Yeah I'm in touch with some researchers in this space. Thought I'd address a few points made in the other thread by nungali (mainly didn't want to deal with the walls of text on that thread + was dealing with a splitting headache yesterday) --

 

• Traditional scholars don't necessarily have to be focused on religion. Traditional scholars  are those who take the emic approach -- who know how to read and understand the original sanskrit text and immersed in the culture/tradition. Indic culture is so complex that unless one is 'born and raised' they can never fully comprehend the intricacies (For example, things that are apparent to people like me, westerners will hardly ever understand). They might be focused on the spiritual aspects or even historical or sociological research. To somehow relegate traditional scholars to religious studies is a big fat red herring  (and a classic rejoinder by western academics) 
• When I suggested that the ancient world and the Vedic texts consider the extent of the culture/civilization spanning from West Asia to Russia, it was immediately misinterpreted as my claiming that I'm espousing it from a genetic or racial perspective. On the contrary, just like Western culture/civlization today spans racial boundaries, it is more than plausible that Indic culture/civilization spanned and influenced a large part of the ancient world. In fact, later historical evidence seems to point towards that -- From Ancient Greece through the European expeditions that set out to find India, it seems like Indic civilization/culture had a wide spread and influence. One such example is here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tushara

Thought I'd set a few points straight here...

 

Also a great video to watch, which demystifies the Genetic arguments of AIT/AMT --

 

https://youtu.be/1bsyi4zYHP0

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by dwai

[Nungali]

 

This could be the beginning of what I call 'That old river argument '    on two forums (history and anthropology) it has several threads on it from various academics and researchers  and has some running to over  30 pages 

 

< loads up the cannon > 

 

I hope your headache gets better .

 

Do you know whats good for a headache ?     

 

 

Spoiler

A blow to the head with a hammer ... thats good for a headache, give you one in seconds .

 

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

This could be the beginning of what I call 'That old river argument '    on two forums (history and anthropology) it has several threads on it from various academics and researchers  and has some running to over  30 pages 

 

< loads up the cannon > 

 

I hope your headache gets better .

 

Do you know whats good for a headache ?     

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

A blow to the head with a hammer ... thats good for a headache, give you one in seconds .

 

I’m an old geezer and have been over such debates and arguments for the past 20 years. Not come across anything that is convincing about AMT. In fact, If you watch the video I shared in the OP, he shreds the DNA studies to bits  
 

There’s no need to suggest violence to resolve medical conditions btw.  A good nights sleep is all I needed.  

[Nungali]

Hey !  You think you can out old  geezer me !  ?  You young 'un ....   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been over such debates and arguments for the past 20 years. Not come across anything that is convincing about OIT.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by Nungali

[dwai]

Just now, Nungali said:

Hey !  You think you can out old  geezer me !  ?  You young 'un ....   

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been over such debates and arguments for the past 20 years. Not come across anything that is convincing about IMT.

 

 

 

 

Did you enjoy your ride earlier?  

 

Also does the name Doreen mean anything to you? 

I saw two aboriginal people (one man and one woman) connected with you...also an old tree, not sure what it was.

[Nungali]

12 hours ago, dwai said:

https://m.timesofindia.com/city/ahmedabad/scientists-find-proof-of-saraswati-existence/amp_articleshow/72432177.cms?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

 

Okay. I got around to reading it .

 

Errrrmmmmm .... and  ???

 

How does this   "  ... address a few points made in the other thread by nungali "  ?

 

I have known  about IVC, I have known about Sarasvati (whole range of ) claims  and I didnt deny the existence of any of it at any time or  in any  'other thread' .

 

This isnt the old OIT ploy where you cite old and defunct  opinions about a displacement  by an invasion  is it  ?  And then criticise it with the latest scientific findings .  You do realise AIT is old school and VERY out of vogue  ?   Even  AMT  , some question, so I term it an 'ingress ' . 

 

Spoiler

Its clear to me that many perceptions of the AMT  by OOI is one rooted in 19th century/early 20th century conceptions of the topic. Almost all of these conceptions are wrong and misguided and the AMT model itself has evolved considerably since then.

 

The AMT simply states an ethnolinguistic group that spoke Indic languages originated outside of the Indian subcontinent. There are several general features of this model that researchers commonly agree upon (such as that it happened and the general timeline of how), but specific aspects of the model are sources of active research to this day. How did they disperse and in what order? Was there one major migration or smaller waves followed by a series of larger ones (the latter is supported by the presence of peoples in the mountainous fringes of the subcontinent speaking Indo-Iranian languages and practicing religions preserving features of the ancient Indo-Iranian religion)? What were their interactions with the contemporary inhabits of the subcontinent like? Did they already possess a rigid caste hierarchy or did it develop out of their interactions with other peoples of the subcontinent ? To what extent did the languages and culture of the natives of the subcontinent or even those of civilizations they encountered along the way (like the BMAC) influence those of the incomers?

The conception that the Aryans looked like Northern Europeans and destroyed the IVC is false and has long been overturned.

 

One thing that is VERY recent  is the influence of BMAC culture on any 'Aryans' that where passing through. And the realisation that  people going to and from from India to Central Asia  even before BMAC and IVC has been going on , like , ' forever'. And ESPECIALLY during  IVC and  BMAC ;   IVC had a trading post at Sortugai over in BMAC .  There are many other indications .

 

( I will add here , not to blow my trumpet but to show how lacking it is. on the history forum I am which is full of professionals, professors and authors on subjects related to AMT, OOI, IVC  , development of Indian cultures, The Vedas, some Indians, some not (and some 'south Indians ) . No one seems to have studied central Asia or BMAC as much as I have . the seem wholly ignorant of it .  So gage it by MY level of  knowledge ,  it shows the overall knowledge is  rather pathetic  .

 

I mean , MY GOD , its a secret lost and discovered (1960s) civilisation that is on par with IVC , Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.

 

And professional peeps be all like ;  'Mhe ."   )

 

 

Like the Seal . I am sure you know about IVC seals ?  What about BMAC seals ?  and one in particular which has both - BMAC seal  on one side and IVC seal on the other , its called the BMAC / IVC passport .  Others show amounts and notations that suggest trade and quality/quantity  labels .

 

But since this just about a Sarasvati river existing and IVC existing,, there isnt much for me to say except, yes, they existed .

 

Here is some other background on 'Sarasvati' :

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Ideas about Saraswatis   (note plural )

 

 

Saraswati is one of the most prominent ideas of Vedas. It is not even a river in the Vedas. It is coming of spring, thawing of snow, greening of grass, so that the Aryan cattle are nourished. It was a celestial river, represented by Milky way galaxy in the sky.

 

The goddess's name originally referred to a river in northwestern India, on the banks of which the mythology and doctrine of the Veda, the Hindu collection of ´sacred´ texts, was initially developed. The river was identified with Sarasvati ("the Flowing"), at this stage a goddess of water and fertility, and formed a mythical unity with six other rivers. In a broader sense, Sarasvati, like later the Persian goddess Anahita, represents the water in all rivers, lakes and seas. A myth describes the origin of the seven rivers as follows: When Thunder God Indra smashes the python that winds around the springs of the rivers, the spring holes are broken open and the streams pour out. Of course, this myth originates from the Indoaryan period and camouflages Sarasvati's pre-Aryan origin.
(...)
The question of the historical existence of the river is discussed extensively in Indology. There are traditionally two opinions: (a) The river existed once, but then dried up, which is why there is no river called Sarasvait today. (b) The river still exists today, but under a different name, e.g. the Sindhu River. Modern satellite photography opens up new scope for speculation, but has not yet led to a consensus. The question is relevant in that the localization of the Sarasvati River would also clarify the localization of the origin of the Vedic culture, which, as suggested at the beginning, is said to have arisen in the area of the river.
(...)
At this point, one should expand on the personal age of the goddess. Those who are familar with the ancient mentality will not be surprised that Sarasvati appears in myths and iconography mostly as a twelve-year-old girl (with all the aforementioned attributes, notabene) and in a later development alternatively assumes an age of sixteen years. An indicator of this is the representation of her face and breasts in iconography.

At the age of sixteen she also appears as the wife of the god Vishnu, but then loses her function as a medium of divination (ritual oracle), as which she regularly serves as a twelve-year-old girl. Numerous representations connect the goddess in both age groups with the Lotus plant, which can also be interpreted as a symbol of the womb in Far Eastern mythology.

Some passages in the Vedas present Sarasvati as daughter and sexual partner of the god Brahma. In ancient times, a father-daughter incest was not a taboo in royal circles, as evidenced by the Persian Great King and Anahita worshipper Artaxerxes II, who took one of his daughters as his wife after his mother Parysatis, a pathological sadist, had his wife Stateira poisoned.

 

and from my new friend Rajesh ;  

 

https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/306/contrasarav.htm?fbclid=IwAR3uoIwSPvoamUJ-OuoLJc2VwT4ATKNdGATuwwZWEDYTp__zdWtI3ULplP8

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, dwai said:

Yeah I'm in touch with some researchers in this space. Thought I'd address a few points made in the other thread by nungali (mainly didn't want to deal with the walls of text on that thread + was dealing with a splitting headache yesterday) --

 

Now, this bit ;

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

 

• Traditional scholars don't necessarily have to be focused on religion. Traditional scholars  are those who take the emic approach -- who know how to read and understand the original sanskrit text and immersed in the culture/tradition. Indic culture is so complex that unless one is 'born and raised' they can never fully comprehend the intricacies (For example, things that are apparent to people like me, westerners will hardly ever understand). They might be focused on the spiritual aspects or even historical or sociological research. To somehow relegate traditional scholars to religious studies is a big fat red herring  (and a classic rejoinder by western academics) 

 

Errmmm Dude , the debates I am in have people on both sides that take the emic approach  .

 

This as another argument currently running BETWEEN classic 'emic' scholars on emic interpretations !

 

And another  debate on the value of 'emic' .  Which I might put up later (in a hide box so as not overload the look of the thread

 

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

• When I suggested that the ancient world and the Vedic texts consider the extent of the culture/civilization spanning from West Asia to Russia,

 

Hang on , what parts of the 'ancient world' considered that  " Vedic texts consider the extent of the culture/civilization spanning from West Asia to Russia,"   ?

 

I knew you where claiming the  Vedic texts said that ... but the 'ancient world ' considered it too ?

 

Please post some proof or cite to something for a back up on THAT one !

 

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

•  
• it was immediately misinterpreted as my claiming that I'm espousing it from a genetic or racial perspective. On the contrary, just like Western culture/civlization today spans racial boundaries, it is more than plausible that Indic culture/civilization spanned and influenced a large part of the ancient world.

 

It was?  I remember talking about THAT ^ being a reversal of  the huge majority of linguistic studies .

 

This too is a long running discussion, but I admit linguistics is beyond my depth . To put it basically, these ideas can easily be the oher way, that some northern Steppe people had waves of movements that came down into central Asia and they bought aspects of language religion and culture with them that morphed on the way depending on who and what 'they' (ie generations )  encountered . This process continued in India. There was admixture before and admixture after, and WAAAAY  before that we had (something that is often NOT taken into account  _ all over the place 'back migration' .... that;ll shake up the jelly beans .

 

Of course, also IVC influenced other parts of the world, just as other parts of the world not only influenced IVC  but helped to create it in the first place !  This is VERY common .   IVC goods and trades and even  technological methods and perhaps  workshops exited in Mesopotamia . (this is some of my most current reading - fascinating ) ... they had sea faring as well.

 

I dont see how any of this disrupts AMT ( as per above definition) ?

 

 

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

•  
•  
• In fact, later historical evidence seems to point towards that -- From Ancient Greece through the European expeditions that set out to find India, it seems like Indic civilization/culture had a wide spread and influence. One such example is here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tushara

Thought I'd set a few points straight here...

 

I had a lot of them straight already.  I'm not sure what you are trying to conclude or imply by all this though ?

 

 

 

11 hours ago, dwai said:

 

Also a great video to watch, which demystifies the Genetic arguments of AIT/AMT --

 

https://youtu.be/1bsyi4zYHP0

 

 

I will get to the above two later .  Right now, I am gonna hit this new little private beach next door

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Apech]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

Yeah I'm in touch with some researchers in this space. Thought I'd address a few points made in the other thread by nungali (mainly didn't want to deal with the walls of text on that thread + was dealing with a splitting headache yesterday) --

 

• Traditional scholars don't necessarily have to be focused on religion. Traditional scholars  are those who take the emic approach -- who know how to read and understand the original sanskrit text and immersed in the culture/tradition. Indic culture is so complex that unless one is 'born and raised' they can never fully comprehend the intricacies (For example, things that are apparent to people like me, westerners will hardly ever understand). They might be focused on the spiritual aspects or even historical or sociological research. To somehow relegate traditional scholars to religious studies is a big fat red herring  (and a classic rejoinder by western academics) 
• When I suggested that the ancient world and the Vedic texts consider the extent of the culture/civilization spanning from West Asia to Russia, it was immediately misinterpreted as my claiming that I'm espousing it from a genetic or racial perspective. On the contrary, just like Western culture/civlization today spans racial boundaries, it is more than plausible that Indic culture/civilization spanned and influenced a large part of the ancient world. In fact, later historical evidence seems to point towards that -- From Ancient Greece through the European expeditions that set out to find India, it seems like Indic civilization/culture had a wide spread and influence. One such example is here -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tushara

Thought I'd set a few points straight here...

 

Also a great video to watch, which demystifies the Genetic arguments of AIT/AMT --

 

https://youtu.be/1bsyi4zYHP0

 

 

I think there are real and interesting questions here - (I haven't managed to watch that video except the very beginning) - and I also think just as we have to peel away the European scholars 'projections' of the AIT and possibly the AMT, there seems to be an attempt to replace this with the Indian National Theory - instead of following the evidence.  Surely someone can step back and examine the evidence objectively without taking sides.

 

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think there are real and interesting questions here - (I haven't managed to watch that video except the very beginning) - and I also think just as we have to peel away the European scholars 'projections' of the AIT and possibly the AMT, there seems to be an attempt to replace this with the Indian National Theory - instead of following the evidence.  Surely someone can step back and examine the evidence objectively without taking sides.

 

 

Actually there is a very pragmatic approach to this by most of the indigenous scholars. However the AIT/AMT camp labels them as “right wing nationalists” and thus try to discredit them, not really disprove their work. 
 

 

This is an old debate which is political in nature, and will be put to rest in another 15 years or so when the world reestablishes it’s natural order of China and India back at the head of the table.  
 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Actually there is a very pragmatic approach to this by most of the indigenous scholars. However the AIT/AMT camp labels them as “right wing nationalists” and thus try to discredit them, not really disprove their work. 
 

 

This is an old debate which is political in nature, and will be put to rest in another 15 years or so when the world reestablishes it’s natural order of China and India back at the head of the table.  
 

 

 

Yeah right.

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Yeah right.

Glad you agree  

[Apech]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

Glad you agree  

 

I know who my masters are

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, dwai said:

Actually there is a very pragmatic approach to this by most of the indigenous scholars. However the AIT/AMT camp labels them as “right wing nationalists” and thus try to discredit them, not really disprove their work. 
 

 

Its nearly like you WANT me to    post ALL  those  'disprorvels'   

 

It will be a very long post ... pages actually.

 

And like you are saying they do not exist ?

 

Unless I misunderstood you AGAIN ?

 

 

 

 

Quote

 

This is an old debate which is political in nature, and will be put to rest in another 15 years or so when the world reestablishes it’s natural order of China and India back at the head of the table.  
 

 

 

The  '  Natural  Order '   ... has China and India at the head of the table  does it ?

 

And you are complaining about OIT people being labelled with    Indian / Hindu nationalist  tag  ?

 

Okey dokey .

Edited December 10, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I know who my masters are

 

Good. I hope they are venerable Hindu elders and gentlemen who would NEVER misinterpret the historical and archaeological record because of any religious bias they might have .

 

[dwai]

 

Quote

 

 

 

The  '  Natural  Order '   ... has China and India at the head of the table  does it ?

 

And you are complaining about OIT people being labelled with    Indian / Hindu nationalist  tag  ?

 

Okey dokey .

This is the problem with discussing such topics. There is so much politicizing and labeling that occurs, that it is impossible to state a simple geopolitical fact - "India and China getting back to being the world leaders in terms of GDP, trade and soft power", which is where they were until the 1700s when the Europeans managed to colonize them.  There was no particularly positive reason for such colonization, except that the europeans were able to very insidiously take advantage of political situations (infighting within India, China, etc) in Asia (and other parts of the world) to their advantage and siphoned away wealth and intellectual properties to fuel their industrial revolution. This is a fact! If someone denies it, they're living in some alternate reality.

 

So, when I say, China and India will regain their position at the head of the world order, it is only a return to the natural order of things that existed. 

 

 

This graphic doesn't factor in other things like soft power or more recent GDP (2003 - 2019). I'm not being jingoistic in my statement of the re-ascendence of India and China to the top of the world order...it is a fact.  

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by dwai

[Nungali]

 

Your funny .

 

I know exactly what you are talking about and   regarding it , I dont live in  an alternative reality . What, you think I am so uneducated about recent history I didnt know about these things .

 

 

 

I think you and me have VERY  different ideas of what  'natural order'   and  'world' means . 

 

Natural Order ;

 

 

"la la laaarr "

 

Human 'Natural '    '  Order'   ;

 

 

" Urk ! "

 

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 Human 'Natural '    '  Order'   ;

 

" Urk ! "

 

I don't subscribe to such an outlook. This is another perspective of how the world can be  --

 

http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/ancient-universities-india-takshashila-nalanda/

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by dwai

[Nungali]

Oh yes, many wonderful Universities.  A very high culture. No doubt about that .

 

My picture related to any 'natural 'order that makes China, India , or another Empire great and expansive . Was there no internal war , oppression and slaughter that made China great in the first place  .... or even created it in the first place ?

 

All of this*  may have been 'peaceful'  , I  am not sure, its not an area I have focused on ( the peaceful expansion of Indian Empires) ;

 

*

 

[Nungali]

Here is another friend I converse with ; a very old Brahman gentleman , the one I mentioned before;

 

Aupmanyav - he is very proud of his grandson

Here is him chastising another venerable countryman about OOI regarding archaeology, history, linguistics, etc  ;

 

"  I am not interested in the religious interpretations of RigVeda. (on the matter of the others interpretation that led him to think OOI) Various sages, in their ecstasy of devotion, have said various things about Aryan Gods and Goddesses. That is a separate matter. This is a history forum. I am interested only what history we can get out of RigVeda. "

 

But now, later, he gives his venerable   interpretation,  from his 'religiously scholarly ' approach when asked about a river so big it had ships in it  ;

 " the shi Aratyns saw in the Milky Way galaxy .... See the thousand-oared ship in the lower left corner.... "

 

 

 

 

And regarding sages interpretations (masters of  emic interpretation ... but not history or archaeology)  etc;

 

" God forbid, if I accuse the Vedic rishis of lying.'  (as he is just seeing a different interpretation)  I believe except for poetic exaggeration in description of their Gods and Goddesses, what they wrote was absolutely true. It had to be because they were before a swarthy, intelligent audience. They employed falsehood when they were talking about dakshina and gifts that their clients gave them (Dana Stutis). This was to make their clients more generous. I do not blame them for that, after all, they had to make their living. In Indian places of pilgrimage the priests still do that - Your father gave us 1000 rupees, he was very generous, how come you are giving us only 500. "

 

- Aupmanyav

 

------------

 

- just an example of different emic approaches from  different traditions .

 

On this level the debate gets very murky ( ie between learned  Hindus WITH an emic approach - but one that varies  ) ... before long its insuts or praise and then caste and jati come into it .... ancient tribal rivalries  surface , the debate  has gone out the window  and then  another thread about AMT , Aryans, or OOI is closed and locked and some people are  banned .

 

Thank goodness that  isnt happening here  ........  as a we are all ' high born '  .

 

 

 

Now, I was going to move on to papers about the rivers of India and why some INSIST the  Ghaggar River can not be the mythical  Saraswati mentioned in the  Rig Veda  but they are long and complex and cross reference various disciplines .

 

And I think .... does any one here really care anyway ?   

 

Doubt it .   If  any are  seriously  interested I can direct them to it . You would have to be 'up to speed' in a few subjects though.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Nungali

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Here is another friend I converse with ; a very old Brahman gentleman , the one I mentioned before;

 

Aupmanyav - he is very proud of his grandson

Here is him chastising another venerable countryman about OOI regarding archaeology, history, linguistics, etc  ;

 

"  I am not interested in the religious interpretations of RigVeda. (on the matter of the others interpretation that led him to think OOI) Various sages, in their ecstasy of devotion, have said various things about Aryan Gods and Goddesses. That is a separate matter. This is a history forum. I am interested only what history we can get out of RigVeda. "

 

But now, later, he gives his venerable   interpretation,  from his 'religiously scholarly ' approach when asked about a river so big it had ships in it  ;

 " the shi Aratyns saw in the Milky Way galaxy .... See the thousand-oared ship in the lower left corner.... "

 

 

 

 

- just an example of different emic approaches from  different traditions .

 

On this level the debate gets very murky ( ie between learned  Hindus WITH an emic approach - but one that varies  ) ... before long its insuts or praise and then caste and jati come into it .... ancient tribal rivalries  surface , the debate  has gone out the window  and then  another thread about AMT , Aryans, or OOI is closed and locked and some people are  banned .

 

Thank goodness that  isnt happening here  ........  as a we are all ' high born '  .

 

 

 

With all due respect to your friend - I too come from a family of Brahmins, with a pretty solid traditional background up to my Grandfather's generation. After that,  there has been such brainwashing perpetrated on the indian people that many individuals of the generations that grew up between 1940s - 1970s were indoctrinated in a very insidious and systematic way on the following two aspects --

1. The AIT and later AMT when AIT was blown to smithereens by evidence from various sources
2. The Aryan-Dravidian divide  which was a ploy of the British to divide-and-rule -- and the Nehru-(fake)Gandhi family that ended up ruling India, in cahoots with the Marxists who were implanted to control the education system in India continued to perpetrate this.

The social impact of such utter falsehoods can only be understood if one only see the effects it had on the ground. 

 

Did you watch the video I shared in the OP? That covers a lot of what you've posted about and effectively disproves them. 

 

Here's another one. My advice (take it or leave it, its your choice), you are pretty smart. Don't try to win...try to understand instead. 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

With all due respect to your friend - I too come from a family of Brahmins, with a pretty solid traditional background up to my Grandfather's generation. After that,  there has been such brainwashing perpetrated on the indian people that many individuals of the generations that grew up between 1940s - 1970s were indoctrinated in a very insidious and systematic way on the following two aspects --

1. The AIT and later AMT when AIT was blown to smithereens by evidence from various sources
2. The Aryan-Dravidian divide  which was a ploy of the British to divide-and-rule -- and the Nehru-(fake)Gandhi family that ended up ruling India, in cahoots with the Marxists who were implanted to control the education system in India continued to perpetrate this.

The social impact of such utter falsehoods can only be understood if one only see the effects it had on the ground. 

 

Did you watch the video I shared in the OP? That covers a lot of what you've posted about and effectively disproves them. 

 

Here's another one. My advice (take it or leave it, its your choice), you are pretty smart. Don't try to win...try to understand instead. 

 

 

 

 

I am aware of the chaos and suffering all sorts of British ploys bought about . But by bringing up old conspiracies  true or false has little impact on the latests  evidences . 

 

Okay, I shall retire to catch up on posted videos ... which I am NOT keen on in a  discussion as , well, I too could post a series of long videos supporting my views  and just ask people to watch them as proof .

 

And when I started studying this subject years back ,  I had no horse in the race and still do not.  These are the conclusions I have come to from looking into it , fairly in depth and cross culturally , inter disciplinary and hearing various Indian interpretations for and against both sides  .

 

I mean , are we going to cite how Hitler used Aryansm ?  ( ... echoes  of VYY in my old Aryan / Central Asia Thread -   )  Thats been proved BS !   How British Empire used it? Thats BS too, but none of this changes the valid results of  modern interdisciplinary research .

 

AGAIN see my .... bugger it ... here it is again . the  MODERN definition of AMT

 

The AMT simply states an ethnolinguistic group that spoke Indic languages originated outside of the Indian subcontinent. There are several general features of this model that researchers commonly agree upon (such as that it happened and the general timeline of how), but specific aspects of the model are sources of active research to this day. How did they disperse and in what order? Was there one major migration or smaller waves followed by a series of larger ones (the latter is supported by the presence of peoples in the mountainous fringes of the subcontinent speaking Indo-Iranian languages and practicing religions preserving features of the ancient Indo-Iranian religion)? What were their interactions with the contemporary inhabits of the subcontinent like? Did they already possess a rigid caste hierarchy or did it develop out of their interactions with other peoples of the subcontinent ? To what extent did the languages and culture of the natives of the subcontinent or even those of civilizations they encountered along the way (like the BMAC) influence those of the incomers?

 

Really, as someone else said " Who the **** cares and why do Indians care so much , we all came from somewhere else originally ! "

[Nungali]

Okay I went back and nope no video in your OP that I can see  .... the one above ?  Nope too ,  I aint gonna watch  a  1 1/2 hr video mate .  For all I know I have already encountered what he is saying before and I might have agreed or not .

 

Thats why I prefer to TALK  and preferably if one can answer issues bout up in posts (not long videos ) instead of ignoring relevant questions , some things I asked, you totally ignored and then went on to emotive issues and subjects . 

 

I have watched too many long videos in discussions or debates that took up time and contained stuff easily or already disputed 

 

Will you watch a 2 hour video explaining the   other view , will you read this book first, before talking about the influence  in  Central Asia .

 

https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000094466

 

or this on  BMAC archaeology ?

 

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780873655453

 

or the papers in this site ?

 

https://indo-european.eu/?s=BMAC

 

 (  ... you might learn something, if you can just drop trying to be right       )

 

Naahhhh !  No one is gonna do that !

 

A nice short to the point video is better IMO

 

https://scroll.in/video/875040/video-who-are-our-ancestors-and-where-did-they-come-from-a-new-studys-findings-on-aryan-migration

Edited December 11, 2019 by Nungali

[Nungali]

... and I nearly forgot ... I also looked at this  you put up   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tushara

 

I suppose its an example  area of influence in latter times  (  and was this a fierce battle, like I depicted before in image - or just a spread of Universities ? ).

 

Much latter times .  MUCH MUCH later times  than the ingress of Aryans into India  .

 

Since it has now been shown that the Asura Deva battles depicted in the Avestas (ie from the Zoroastrian POV ) do no show  that the  Deva relate to Indian  Deva , but something different , its  often been suggested it was between the Old ' Mazdayasni Paoiryo-Tkaesha' ;  one branch moving towards Zoroastrianism ( Mazdayasno Zarathushtrish Vidaevo Ahura-Tkaesho) ... Asura Vs Deva.... not moving towards  it

NOT 'deva' as in the Vedas  but perhaps 'south Bactrians ' (BMAC) Vs Nth (Tocahrians - Deva - Daevo  )   and others, then around the Oxus delta / Aral Sea .  ( Zoroastrians { Zarathushtrish }  against { Vi }  Div / Deva {Daveao }  [ and for ]  Ahura {Asura}  's  religion/law { Tkaesho } )

 

But maybe some of these DEVAS   did go on to India  and take     'Aryan religion' with them ? 

 

Here is a suggestive picture  from Zoroastrian side ;

 

 

 and a depiction from the Vedic side

 

 

Different stories but with interesting correlations .

Edited December 11, 2019 by Nungali