Apech Posted December 11, 2019 9 hours ago, dwai said: With all due respect to your friend - I too come from a family of Brahmins, with a pretty solid traditional background up to my Grandfather's generation. After that, there has been such brainwashing perpetrated on the indian people that many individuals of the generations that grew up between 1940s - 1970s were indoctrinated in a very insidious and systematic way on the following two aspects -- The AIT and later AMT when AIT was blown to smithereens by evidence from various sources The Aryan-Dravidian divide which was a ploy of the British to divide-and-rule -- and the Nehru-(fake)Gandhi family that ended up ruling India, in cahoots with the Marxists who were implanted to control the education system in India continued to perpetrate this. The social impact of such utter falsehoods can only be understood if one only see the effects it had on the ground. Did you watch the video I shared in the OP? That covers a lot of what you've posted about and effectively disproves them. Here's another one. My advice (take it or leave it, its your choice), you are pretty smart. Don't try to win...try to understand instead. Believe it or not, as a Brit I am open to these ideas. A few years ago my aged mother went on a course on Indian history at Oxford Uni. and came back and said the lecturer (who was Indian) said that they owed the British for the idea of their history because before the western scholars there was no such thing as Indian history. All part of the India as a timeless mystical realm which the Raj liked to spin. I did try to explain to her that many Indian scholars would object to that view - but she just said 'but he was Indian, and a very nice man' - so I couldn't convince her on that point. But I get a bit put off when these speakers (in the vids you link to) go on about 18th and 19th century ideas which no one takes seriously any more. Really its time to move on from what they thought in 1780 or whatever. I live in Portugal and so there's even more connection with Goa (in fact the present prime-minister is Goan originally - he gets some racism even in this laid back place) and Vasco da Gama and so on. I think the problem is for me, even being willing to rethink all my assumptions about India etc. it seems to me they are trying to replace scientific enquiry i.e. verified evidence based theory, with the authority of the Rishis and the ancient texts. That's not to say they are wrong - its just they need to complete the circle by for instance using the archeological record and so on in a convincing and non-disputable way. I was a bit put off by one vid which described Romila Thopal as a Marxist - I'm pretty sure she's not - so I guess there's a high degree of tension between the academics of various strains in India. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 11, 2019 9 hours ago, Nungali said: I am aware of the chaos and suffering all sorts of British ploys bought about . But by bringing up old conspiracies true or false has little impact on the latests evidences . .... Hey! You stole a loaf of bread and transportation is fair and reasonable punishment - so get over it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted December 11, 2019 22 minutes ago, Apech said: Believe it or not, as a Brit I am open to these ideas. A few years ago my aged mother went on a course on Indian history at Oxford Uni. and came back and said the lecturer (who was Indian) said that they owed the British for the idea of their history because before the western scholars there was no such thing as Indian history. All part of the India as a timeless mystical realm which the Raj liked to spin. I did try to explain to her that many Indian scholars would object to that view - but she just said 'but he was Indian, and a very nice man' - so I couldn't convince her on that point. But I get a bit put off when these speakers (in the vids you link to) go on about 18th and 19th century ideas which no one takes seriously any more. Really its time to move on from what they thought in 1780 or whatever. I live in Portugal and so there's even more connection with Goa (in fact the present prime-minister is Goan originally - he gets some racism even in this laid back place) and Vasco da Gama and so on. I think the problem is for me, even being willing to rethink all my assumptions about India etc. it seems to me they are trying to replace scientific enquiry i.e. verified evidence based theory, with the authority of the Rishis and the ancient texts. That's not to say they are wrong - its just they need to complete the circle by for instance using the archeological record and so on in a convincing and non-disputable way. I was a bit put off by one vid which described Romila Thopal as a Marxist - I'm pretty sure she's not - so I guess there's a high degree of tension between the academics of various strains in India. Romila had the support of the Marxist powers that existed until a few decades back. The question is not whether ancient Rishis were right or wrong. if you see they were right about a lot of things. They (Indic scholars) are looking at their body of work after discarding the Eurocentric lens of max mueller, wheeler, et al. It is a classic etic vs emic problem. The traditional way in which the texts were transmitted has been proven to be highly reliable, as the ancients added error correction and error checking in the method of learning itself. So the original compositions have traveled through time almost unaltered. The second part is that of considering the Texts as “religious”. There is no separation of religion and other aspects of life in Indian tradition like there is in the west. So the same body of work contains rituals, philosophy, science etc. if you watch the second video I posted he explains the breadth of the work. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 11, 2019 42 minutes ago, dwai said: Romila had the support of the Marxist powers that existed until a few decades back. The question is not whether ancient Rishis were right or wrong. if you see they were right about a lot of things. They (Indic scholars) are looking at their body of work after discarding the Eurocentric lens of max mueller, wheeler, et al. It is a classic etic vs emic problem. The traditional way in which the texts were transmitted has been proven to be highly reliable, as the ancients added error correction and error checking in the method of learning itself. So the original compositions have traveled through time almost unaltered. The second part is that of considering the Texts as “religious”. There is no separation of religion and other aspects of life in Indian tradition like there is in the west. So the same body of work contains rituals, philosophy, science etc. if you watch the second video I posted he explains the breadth of the work. The Rishi's may well be right but some explanation has to be provided for the following (apart from just dismissing it): Quote Genetic evidence indicates that most of the ethno-linguistic groups in India descend from a mixture of two divergent ancestral populations: Ancestral North Indians (ANI) related to West Eurasians (people of Central Asia, the Middle East, the Caucasus, and Europe) and Ancestral South Indians (ASI) related (distantly) to indigenous Andaman Islanders.1 The evidence for mixture was initially documented based on analysis of Y chromosomes2 and mitochondrial DNA3–5 and then confirmed and extended through whole-genome studies.6–8 Archaeological and linguistic studies provide support for the genetic findings of a mixture of at least two very distinct populations in the history of the Indian subcontinent. The earliest archaeological evidence for agriculture in the region dates to 8,000–9,000 years before present (BP) (Mehrgarh in present-day Pakistan) and involved wheat and barley derived from crops originally domesticated in West Asia.9,10 The earliest evidence for agriculture in the south dates to much later, around 4,600 years BP, and has no clear affinities to West Eurasian agriculture (it was dominated by native pulses such as mungbean and horsegram, as well as indigenous millets11). Linguistic analyses also support a history of contacts between divergent populations in India, including at least one with West Eurasian affinities. Indo-European languages including Sanskrit and Hindi (primarily spoken in northern India) are part of a larger language family that includes the great majority of European languages. In contrast, Dravidian languages including Tamil and Telugu (primarily spoken in southern India) are not closely related to languages outside of South Asia. Evidence for long-term contact between speakers of these two language groups in India is evident from the fact that there are Dravidian loan words (borrowed vocabulary) in the earliest Hindu text (the Rig Veda, written in archaic Sanskrit) that are not found in Indo-European languages outside the Indian subcontinent.12,13 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Apech said: The Rishi's may well be right but some explanation has to be provided for the following (apart from just dismissing it): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3769933/ Also I think you raised a question about why Indic scholars are still bringing up 18th and 19th century European works. That’s because modern western indology is built on that very foundation, which imho is seriously flawed. Edited December 11, 2019 by dwai 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted December 11, 2019 8 hours ago, Apech said: .... Hey! You stole a loaf of bread and transportation is fair and reasonable punishment - so get over it. Get over it ? ... best thing that ever happened to 'me' . Talking to Aboriginal friends and they ; " ... and this white guy goes, 'I want to say sorry and apologise to you .' 'What for ' ? ' One of my ancestors stole a loaf of bread and they sent him to Australia , and then we had to live on your land and we messed everything up .' Then the Aboriginal gestures at the beautiful landscape, the clear flowing river intertwined with river sand beaches and clear pools, with giant fish, the islands of bottle brush flowers with various honey eaters flitting about ... ' And THIS was their punishment ? To be imprisoned HERE ! .... Away from ENGLAND ! " - and every body laughed . Oh how the English homeland pulls on my heart strings ! I shall try to get over it though 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted December 11, 2019 14 minutes ago, Nungali said: Get over it ? ... best thing that ever happened to 'me' . Talking to Aboriginal friends and they ; " ... and this white guy goes, 'I want to say sorry and apologise to you .' 'What for ' ? ' One of my ancestors stole a loaf of bread and they sent him to Australia , and then we had to live on your land and we messed everything up .' Then the Aboriginal gestures at the beautiful landscape, the clear flowing river intertwined with river sand beaches and clear pools, with giant fish, the islands of bottle brush flowers with various honey eaters flitting about ... ' And THIS was their punishment ? To be imprisoned HERE ! .... Away from ENGLAND ! " - and every body laughed . Oh how the English homeland pulls on my heart strings ! I shall try to get over it though My friend spent 20 days in Australia this summer. Couldn’t stop gushing on about it — so I’m thinking if opportunity arises, I’ll be visiting too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) First; thanks for putting up an extract and shorter vid Why NOT include Andaman Islanders ? They are an ancient people (used to be called 'Australoids' ) that ranged east of modern India, India , Andaman Is , through SE Asia and then went to Australia . Old School Anthropology used to cite ' ancient people from India being part of a 'wave' of later ingress into Australia and the source of the dingo (not a native) . I realise this is 'out of vogue' nowadays , but the new ideas have had to gloss over some issues that still remain . So, the Andamenese (some of them) where considered part of the Indigenous population that spread over India . " this lineage is hypothesized to represent the phylogenetic signal of an early southern movement of humans through Asia. " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC378623/ Regarding the 'filling in of gaps and postulations ' , that happens in everything , linguistics included . I have read similar protests (from OOI , of course ) pulling apart linguistic theory and denying all its premises , so virtually (they think) linguistics is invalid . The same goes for archaeological interpretations, in many cases . But if the emic interpretations of Vedic scholars is immune to this .... I certainly have NOT encountered that . because they fight amongst themselves regarding interpretations in the same way as scientific theorists do ! IMO admixture has been going on since ' year dot' , peoples movements. travel, seafaring , going on a LOT earlier than supposed . HOWEVER .... what he says about genetic calculations is relevant . And the reasons he gives (basically juggling data gives varied results ) is why , on the history forum, genetics is banned as a discussion subject . Also I like his little punctuating laugh Edited December 11, 2019 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted December 11, 2019 21 minutes ago, dwai said: My friend spent 20 days in Australia this summer. Couldn’t stop gushing on about it — so I’m thinking if opportunity arises, I’ll be visiting too. By invading in through the NW corner ? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted December 11, 2019 59 minutes ago, Nungali said: By invading in through the NW corner ? Only to plunder the natural beauty and sunshine Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Nungali said: First; thanks for putting up an extract and shorter vid Why NOT include Andaman Islanders ? They are an ancient people (used to be called 'Australoids' ) that ranged east of modern India, India , Andaman Is , through SE Asia and then went to Australia . Old School Anthropology used to cite ' ancient people from India being part of a 'wave' of later ingress into Australia and the source of the dingo (not a native) . I realise this is 'out of vogue' nowadays , but the new ideas have had to gloss over some issues that still remain . So, the Andamenese (some of them) where considered part of the Indigenous population that spread over India . " this lineage is hypothesized to represent the phylogenetic signal of an early southern movement of humans through Asia. " https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC378623/ Regarding the 'filling in of gaps and postulations ' , that happens in everything , linguistics included . I have read similar protests (from OOI , of course ) pulling apart linguistic theory and denying all its premises , so virtually (they think) linguistics is invalid . The same goes for archaeological interpretations, in many cases . But if the emic interpretations of Vedic scholars is immune to this .... I certainly have NOT encountered that . because they fight amongst themselves regarding interpretations in the same way as scientific theorists do ! IMO admixture has been going on since ' year dot' , peoples movements. travel, seafaring , going on a LOT earlier than supposed . HOWEVER .... what he says about genetic calculations is relevant . And the reasons he gives (basically juggling data gives varied results ) is why , on the history forum, genetics is banned as a discussion subject . Also I like his little punctuating laugh I am no expert in these fields but I think one thing missed or brushed over in that video is that for linguistics the family tree of languages has a definite time direction i.e. phonemes (?) morph in a way that indicates which language developed from which - thus you can't start at any point as the origin - that's why PIE is postulated - it is an unknown language which pre-dates the others. Similarly for genetics to point to small differences as not being significant is I would guess a mistake - because the study of the genomes can say which developed out of which. He also brushed over the early out of Africa populations in the Middle East as if they didn't exist. Where I agree with him though is that much of this is a search for European identity - because of course so many of the scientist are European (or American) - and that may well skew the interpretation. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Apech said: I am no expert in these fields but I think one thing missed or brushed over in that video is that for linguistics the family tree of languages has a definite time direction i.e. phonemes (?) morph in a way that indicates which language developed from which - thus you can't start at any point as the origin - that's why PIE is postulated - it is an unknown language which pre-dates the others. Similarly for genetics to point to small differences as not being significant is I would guess a mistake - because the study of the genomes can say which developed out of which. He also brushed over the early out of Africa populations in the Middle East as if they didn't exist. Where I agree with him though is that much of this is a search for European identity - because of course so many of the scientist are European (or American) - and that may well skew the interpretation. In the longer video he actually states why the linguistic mode with ‘PIE’ at the root is not mathematically sound. He says one can take any one language as the root and demonstrate a tree structure, and mathematically it would be correct. He also states why the Out if Africa populations are not relevant to this issue (AIT/AMT) - chronologically they are far more in antiquity. He also gives evidence of human settlements in central and southern India dating back 300K years. Eventually (imho) the academics will have to revise and revisit their chronology of human history/evolution to a much older date than what is considered acceptable today. Edited December 11, 2019 by dwai Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 11, 2019 1 minute ago, dwai said: In the longer video he actually states why the linguistic mode with ‘PIE’ at the root is not mathematically sound. He says one can take any one language as the root and demonstrate a tree structure, and mathematically it would be correct. yeah I know he says that but I didn't find it very convincing ... but hey what do I know? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted December 11, 2019 1 minute ago, Apech said: yeah I know he says that but I didn't find it very convincing ... but hey what do I know? It’s easy enough to prove/disprove him if one chooses to do so. Computer science has become pervasive enough to allow that. I think the best part of his presentations is his exhortation to use evidence based science to study the subject. Here’s another guy I like a lot on AIT/AMT — Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted December 12, 2019 4 hours ago, dwai said: Only to plunder the natural beauty and sunshine There is a deeper level of my joke - the reverse analogy Archaeology / Anthropology used to talk about waves of people coming into Australia from the NE . The (real) Australians said no, we are the originals one and only . But 'left wing greenie' machinations , relating to the granting of land rights (and commie universities ) started concluding , a lot via genetics that they where right and there was no incoming waves of modifying migrations . So we started to get classic anthropological theory thrown out the window ( selectively, mind you ) and recent anthropologists examine 'gracile' , 'robust' , 'modern' and 'archaic' remains as " Mhe ... looks the same to me ! Its just a variation on type . " A strange reverse direction of the dynamics re political machinations and origins between India and Australia . One seemingly valid idea is that the indigenous been here long enough from origins to have diverged into different types through genetic variation . Now, lets compare that to the ' Vedic Scholar approach ' - here , with an 'equivalent ' , Aboriginal Elder , 'top man' , running a gathering of nation wide indigenous at Alice Springs - his job was to group together 'types' , and help those that did not know where they belonged , due to 'lost culture' . Uncle Link bought up some kids from my area , one bought a school friend along, the Aboriginal boy and his friend where separated and put in different groups , the friend, put in an another Aboriginal group protested ' You made a mistake , I am Joe's friend from school, I am not an Aboriginal I am an Indian ! " The Elder said , 'I know, but these are your people ." And Link said " .... and be buggered if he didnt look exactly like most of the people in that group. " Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted December 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Apech said: I am no expert in these fields but I think one thing missed or brushed over in that video is that for linguistics the family tree of languages has a definite time direction i.e. phonemes (?) morph in a way that indicates which language developed from which - thus you can't start at any point as the origin - that's why PIE is postulated - it is an unknown language which pre-dates the others. Similarly for genetics to point to small differences as not being significant is I would guess a mistake - because the study of the genomes can say which developed out of which. He also brushed over the early out of Africa populations in the Middle East as if they didn't exist. Something else I have encountered recently is the 'proto-Elmamite ' influence in early BMAC . Hard to get more info on that ( so far ) . Before that , and I think we discussed this some time back , was the route OOA and the issue of the open or closed (by 'sand bars' ) 2 main gulfs on the way to India . Some times the coast route went up the gulfs ( to Lower Egypt and western Levant ) or across the 'sand bar' and along the coast, same with the next gulf , up that or across to Indus Valley. Some see Proto-Elam or Iranian influence in early roots of BMAC, some see 'Dravidian ' . some see an ingress up rivers between Persian Gulf and Indus . Sometimes they consider back migrations . 4 hours ago, Apech said: Where I agree with him though is that much of this is a search for European identity - because of course so many of the scientist are European (or American) - and that may well skew the interpretation. I think you read ' Ancient Egypt: The First Farmers to the Great Pyramid ' John Romer . It has an excelent long forward of the history of research in archaeology , the ' Empire Model' stage , western bias , then a stage of transition (we started getting black African, Indian, and Asian well qualified researches ) and the current trend (well his anyway and some others ) of 'evidence based research ' . Which is great ... but its missing all the 'stories' ! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted December 12, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, dwai said: In the longer video he actually states why the linguistic mode with ‘PIE’ at the root is not mathematically sound. He says one can take any one language as the root and demonstrate a tree structure, and mathematically it would be correct. Just as I said , some even pull apart the whole basis of linguistic theory, denying its principles and making it defunct . Yet the theory is accepted all over the place (ie in the development of other languages) . Quote He also states why the Out if Africa populations are not relevant to this issue (AIT/AMT) - chronologically they are far more in antiquity. If its too old to be relevant , how is 300k year info relevant ? Oh, never mind , answer this instead . Quote He also gives evidence of human settlements in central and southern India dating back 300K years. So ? . And ....... ? For starters , how does define 'settlements' ? People 300k back throughout the whole area ? " Australoids' ... old school . Here is the 'new school' https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/who-were-the-first-settlers-of-india/article19621078.ece " The ‘early version’ says they arrived 74,000 to 120,000 years ago from Africa through the Arabian peninsula with Middle Stone Age tools such as scrapers and points that helped them hunt their prey, gather food, or make clothes. The ‘late version’ says they arrived much later, around 50,000 to 60,000 years ago, with upgraded technology such as microlithic (tiny stone) tools that might have been used to give sharp tips to arrows and spears." It wasnt just happening in India ; 250,000–200,000 years ago: modern human presence in West Asia (Misliya cave). 230,000–150,000 years ago: age of mt-DNA haplogroup L ("Mitochondrial Eve"). 210,000 years ago: modern human presence in southeast Europe (Apidima, Greece).[1] 195,000 years ago: Omo remains (Ethiopia).[2] 170,000 years ago: humans are wearing clothing by this date.[3] 160,000 years ago: Homo sapiens idaltu. 150,000 years ago: Peopling of Africa: Khoisanid separation, age of mtDNA haplogroup L0. 125,000 years ago: peak of the Eemian interglacial period. 120,000 years ago: SE Australian Aboriginal people were cooking on hearths. Charcoal and Burnt Stone Feature #1 (CBS1) located within coastal dune sediments at Moyjil (Point Ritchie), Warrnambool, that independent geomorphic and OSL dating indicates is of Last Interglacial age (~120,000 years ago). [1] 120,000–90,000 years ago: Abbassia Pluvial in North Africa—the Sahara desert region is wet and fertile. 120,000–75,000 years ago: Khoisanid back-migration from Southern Africa to East Africa.[4] 100,000 years ago: Earliest structures in the world (sandstone blocks set in a semi-circle with an oval foundation) built in Egypt close to Wadi Halfa near the modern border with Sudan.[5] 82,000 years ago: small perforated seashell beads from Taforalt in Morocco are the earliest evidence of personal adornment found anywhere in the world.[6] 80,000–70,000 years ago: Recent African origin: separation of sub-Saharan Africans and non-Africans. 75,000 years ago: Toba Volcano supereruption that may have contributed to human populations being lowered to about 15,000 people.[7] 70,000 years ago: earliest example of abstract art or symbolic art from Blombos Cave, South Africa—stones engraved with grid or cross-hatch patterns.[8] 67,000–40,000 years ago: Neanderthal admixture to Eurasians. 50,000 years ago: earliest sewing needle found. Made and used by Denisovans.[9] 50,000–30,000 years ago: Mousterian Pluvial in North Africa. The Sahara desert region is wet and fertile. Later Stone Age begins in Africa. 45,000–43,000 years ago: European early modern humans.[10] I supposed they sometimes lived in 'settlements' . Some say the Toba Eruption 'drove' the 'Australoids' into Australia ( as most of the devastation and outfall went west) . Quote Eventually (imho) the academics will have to revise and revisit their chronology of human history/evolution to a much older date than what is considered acceptable today. Happening now . Already we have found VERY older human evidence in Arabia , Morocco , SE Asia ( surviving up to 'recently' , 'Hobbits' ) , but most died out , where 'unsuccessful' , did not pass on their genes to latter generations. Edited December 12, 2019 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted December 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Nungali said: Just as I said , some even pull apart the whole basis of linguistic theory, denying its principles and making it defunct . Yet the theory is accepted all over the place (ie in the development of other languages) . If its too old to be relevant , how is 300k year info relevant ? Oh, never mind , answer this instead . So ? . And ....... ? For starters , how does define 'settlements' ? People 300k back throughout the whole area ? " Australoids' ... old school . Here is the 'new school' https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/who-were-the-first-settlers-of-india/article19621078.ece " The ‘early version’ says they arrived 74,000 to 120,000 years ago from Africa through the Arabian peninsula with Middle Stone Age tools such as scrapers and points that helped them hunt their prey, gather food, or make clothes. The ‘late version’ says they arrived much later, around 50,000 to 60,000 years ago, with upgraded technology such as microlithic (tiny stone) tools that might have been used to give sharp tips to arrows and spears." It wasnt just happening in India ; 250,000–200,000 years ago: modern human presence in West Asia (Misliya cave). 230,000–150,000 years ago: age of mt-DNA haplogroup L ("Mitochondrial Eve"). 210,000 years ago: modern human presence in southeast Europe (Apidima, Greece).[1] 195,000 years ago: Omo remains (Ethiopia).[2] 170,000 years ago: humans are wearing clothing by this date.[3] 160,000 years ago: Homo sapiens idaltu. 150,000 years ago: Peopling of Africa: Khoisanid separation, age of mtDNA haplogroup L0. 125,000 years ago: peak of the Eemian interglacial period. 120,000 years ago: SE Australian Aboriginal people were cooking on hearths. Charcoal and Burnt Stone Feature #1 (CBS1) located within coastal dune sediments at Moyjil (Point Ritchie), Warrnambool, that independent geomorphic and OSL dating indicates is of Last Interglacial age (~120,000 years ago). [1] 120,000–90,000 years ago: Abbassia Pluvial in North Africa—the Sahara desert region is wet and fertile. 120,000–75,000 years ago: Khoisanid back-migration from Southern Africa to East Africa.[4] 100,000 years ago: Earliest structures in the world (sandstone blocks set in a semi-circle with an oval foundation) built in Egypt close to Wadi Halfa near the modern border with Sudan.[5] 82,000 years ago: small perforated seashell beads from Taforalt in Morocco are the earliest evidence of personal adornment found anywhere in the world.[6] 80,000–70,000 years ago: Recent African origin: separation of sub-Saharan Africans and non-Africans. 75,000 years ago: Toba Volcano supereruption that may have contributed to human populations being lowered to about 15,000 people.[7] 70,000 years ago: earliest example of abstract art or symbolic art from Blombos Cave, South Africa—stones engraved with grid or cross-hatch patterns.[8] 67,000–40,000 years ago: Neanderthal admixture to Eurasians. 50,000 years ago: earliest sewing needle found. Made and used by Denisovans.[9] 50,000–30,000 years ago: Mousterian Pluvial in North Africa. The Sahara desert region is wet and fertile. Later Stone Age begins in Africa. 45,000–43,000 years ago: European early modern humans.[10] I supposed they sometimes lived in 'settlements' . Some say the Toba Eruption 'drove' the 'Australoids' into Australia ( as most of the devastation and outfall went west) . Happening now . Already we have found VERY older human evidence in Arabia , Morocco , SE Asia ( surviving up to 'recently' , 'Hobbits' ) , but most died out , where 'unsuccessful' , did not pass on their genes to latter generations. Funny that everyone accepts the Toba eruption but denies the Younger Dryas impact because it's not a gradualist explanation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted December 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Apech said: Funny that everyone accepts the Toba eruption but denies the Younger Dryas impact because it's not a gradualist explanation. http://indiafacts.org/indian-history-perspective-1/ Quote 300,000 B.P. Primitive man lived in central India near Narmada river basin in what is today known as Madhya Pradesh. He is referred to as Narmada Man and teams from United States and France, have identified the original Narmada skull as actually that of a human woman (“Homo Sapiens”) and not as male Homo Erectus as thought previously. In 1982 a fossil hominid calvaria was found in a middle Pleistocene deposit in the central Narmada valley of Madhya Pradesh, India, and was assigned to the new taxon Homo erectus narmadensis. Subsequently, morphometric studies of the specimen were conducted by two separate research teams from France and the United States, both in collaboration with Indian colleagues. Results of the most recent study, which includes morphometric and comparative investigations, lead to the conclusion that “Narmada Man” is appropriately identified as Homo sapiens. (Kennedy, Sonakia, Chiment, & Verma, 1991) An interesting find was that below the hominid fossil were found stone tools, bones of horses, boars, hippopotamus and an extinct elephant Stegodon dated anywhere between 800,000 years to 10,000 years ago. (Lal, 2016, p. 365) It must be noted that horses became a political animal during the era of British Indology and continues to generate even today heated polemics among AIT proponents and opponents. Its absence in pre-Vedic India (before 1500 BCE), is supposed to indicate that horse-riding Central Asian Aryan’s invaded India. Yet we do have well-documented but unpublicized ancient horse remains at least 6,000 years older than the supposed AIT (considering the most unlikely conservative scenario)! In fact a much earlier date for domesticated horses in central India is known, as we will see a bit later. 150,000 B.P. Archaic humans were living as far south as what is Chennai today. A 160,000 years old skull of a 5 year old baby (Laterite Baby) was found, which was identified as (archaic) Homo Sapiens. Humans migrated from India to Zambia in south central Africa 160,000 years ago. The skull of the so-called Rhodesia Man has Taurus Angularis (part of skull bone) which is absent in all other older African skulls but is present in Narmada Man, and in all modern humans. Narmada Man, Laterite Baby and Rhodesia Man pose serious challenge to the Out of Africa theory. If we consider the combined evidence of the above, which is hard scientific evidence, it would mean that indigenous archaic modern humans existed in India at least by 300,000 BP and were staying as far south as Chennai. Additionally as early as 160,000, an Indian had somehow migrated to central Africa and died there. Yet as per the prevailing Out of Africa Theory, modern humans originated only 80,000 years ago and migrated from Africa to India. This could mean two things: Ancient humans had originated in India and had lived in India for a long time. Then somehow they all died out by 150,000 years ago. Then again they somehow evolved out of Africa, and then 50 Africans came to India, and then these Indians colonize the whole world. Or, Humans did indeed originate in India, and evolved to modern humans, and that there were back and forth migrations between Africa and Asia. The Out of Africa could then be a small but important part of the human journey, a sub-set of a potentially new theory and may have to be modified based on new evidence. These are, after all, some serious questions which have significant implications as to how we view history of humans. Yet in the usual opaque way in which a politically motivated western academia works, they have simply ignored and buried any evidence which challenges the Out of Africa theory. I leave it to you to decide which of the above conclusions seem more logical. I personally find the second alternative more convincing. In this regard, P Priyadarshi has given a compelling alternative for earlier periods which I present below. For latter periods, say after 75,000 BP, we have relied on the mainstream narrative as documented by National Geographic genographic project and Stephen Oppenheimer’s works. Mitochondrial DNA Eve was most likely an Indian and lineages L0, L1, L2, L3, M and N all probably originated in India. In other words, anatomically modern humans originated in India and not in Africa. Then there was a migration of L0 and L1 lineages to Africa 130,000 years BP where they hybridized with a now extinct ancestor and became a different people. (Priyadarshi, 2012) 90,000 B.P. Again around 85,000 BP, another set of Indians L0 (L0a, L0k, L0d), L1, L2 and L3 (prior to split of M & N) migrated to Africa. Other Indians migrated towards South East Asia following the coast around Borneo till they reached South China. 75,000 B.P. In 74,000 BP, Mount Toba eruption occurred which covered Indian sub-continent in ash up to 5m deep. Global temperatures cooled down drastically and a “volcanic winter” was caused. Many modern humans in Indian subcontinent died of the severe cold and from resulting droughts and deforestation. L0, L1, L2 and L3, died out in India, while they continued to exist in Africa. It is believed that only 1,000 people survived in India. According to the Toba catastrophe theory, a massive volcanic eruption changed the course of human history by severely reducing the human population. This may have occurred when around 70–75,000 years ago the Toba caldera in Indonesia underwent a category 8 or “mega-colossal” eruption on the Volcanic Explosivity Index. This may have reduced the average global temperature by 3 to 3.5 degrees Celsius for several years and may possibly have triggered an ice age. This massive environmental change is believed to have created population bottlenecks in the various species that existed at the time; this in turn accelerated differentiation of the isolated human populations, eventually leading to the extinction of all the other human species except for the branch that became modern humans(2). After this repopulation of Indian sub-continent took place. Many of the Indians who were now settled in Timor and Borneo migrated to Australia and New Guinea respectively. Some people headed back from south-east Asia to eastern and north-eastern India. 50,000 B.P. Around 52,000 years ago there was a significant warming of world climate, and Indians migrated through Punjab, Sindh and Multan north-westwards towards West Asian Levant region and head towards Europe via Bosporus. Indian population started diverging into two groups, the Ancestral North Indians and Ancestral South Indians and present-day Indian population is a mix of ancient north and south bearing the genomic contributions from these two distinct ancestral populations. At a later stage, 40,000 years ago, the ancient north Indians emerged which in turn led to rise in numbers here. But at some point of time, the ancient north and the ancient south mixed, giving birth to a different set of population. And that is the population which exists now and there is a genetic relationship between the population within India(3). Modern Indians are thus descendants of two ancient founding populations, the older Ancestral North Indians (ANI) and the latter Ancestral South Indians (ASI). This genetic branching has however now become a major political issue and manifests itself as: North South divide Aryan-Dravidian divide However, we must understand that the ANI-ASI divide is merely a genetic branching of two ancient population lineages. It is not a static and eternal divide that modern Tamil and Dravidian politicians would have us believe. From ancient times till modern day, there has been a constant churn of people all over India. People from North have gone to the south, and people from South have gone to the east and so on. There were of course periods of extreme climatic conditions when there was no interaction between different groups, and again once conditions became amenable, there was movements again. An Indian today is thus a mixture of ANI and ASI “types”. North Indians have more ANI and south Indians have more ASI. It has nothing to do with looks, skin color, caste or racism. Noted historian and economist Sanjeev Sanyal says: The Indian reader may be tempted here to think of the Ancestral South Indians (ASI) as Dravidians and the Ancestral North Indians (ANI) as Aryans. While I have nothing against the words themselves, one should be cautious about using the terms as they are often used in the context of bogus nineteenth century racial theories. The ANI and ASI are just genetic cocktails and not ‘pure’ races. Moreover we are dealing here with Stone Age bands and not horse-drawn chariots, cities and iron weapons that were said to be part of the Aryan-Dravidian rivalry. (Sanyal, 2016, p. 29) In the meantime, Neanderthals, a violent people who lived in Europe (and who rarely lived beyond 35 years of age), began to become extinct around 40,000 years ago, after anatomically modern humans had reached the continent but not before hybridizing with them and contributing to the European gene-pools. The inescapable conclusion is that all Europeans today are essentially Pakistani Punjabi in origin with some Neanderthal genes. Let this sink in for a moment. 40,000 B.P. By now humans of Punjabi origin had moved into Hungary and Austria. (45,000 BP) and into rest of Europe. People from Assam and north-eastern India and Indo-China region move towards Tibet and then towards China. The implication is that the oldest Tibetans and Chinese are Assamese. Another wave of erstwhile Indians now migrated from South China towards mainland China. Another wave of West Asians and Punjabis and Sindhis, headed towards Central Asia and eventually moved towards Siberia. 30,000 B.P. Bhimbetka Caves in Madhya Pradesh located in northern fringes of the ancient Vindhyachal ranges are home to the extraordinary rock shelters and paintings. Executed mainly in red and white, with the occasional use of green and yellow with themes taken from the everyday events of eons ago, the scenes usually depict hunting, dancing, horse and elephant riders, animal fights, honey collection, decoration of bodies, disguises, masks and different type of animals etc. It depicts the detail of social life during the long period of time, when man used to frequent these rock shelters. Animals such as bison, tiger, rhinoceros, wild boar, elephants, monkeys, antelopes, lizards, peacocks etc. have been abundantly depicted in the rock shelters. Popular religious and ritual symbols also occur frequently(4). Thus domesticated horse was known as early as 35,000 BP because there is a seated figure on a horse. Again this flies against the face of the so-called Aryan Invasion Theory according to which Aryan’s from Central Asia introduced horses (along with Sanskrit, racism and caste system) to Indian-subcontinent. In parallel, people from Indian mainland reach Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and go on to be become the Jaroa and Onge tribes. Around 25,000 years ago there was a land bridge between Asia and North America. Different groups of population merged at the Bering Strait and became future Americans. Thus Native Americans or Red Indians as they were called earlier are indeed Indians. 20,000 B.P. Prior to this there was a common Mesolithic language in India with regional variations. However during the last Glacial Maximum (23,000 to 19,000 BP), due to extreme climatic conditions Indian sub-continent got divided into three zones shown below. Extreme isolation of Indian people into three groups led to linguistic differentiation and formation of three language families, the Indo-European, Dravidian and Austro-Asiatic. (Priyadarshi, 2012) Interestingly, around 100 years ago, the great Rishi Sri Aurobindo, who himself was a polyglot and master linguist had realized, based on his extensive study of the languages and aided by his yogic intuition, that Sanskrit and Tamil in fact derived from an earlier mother tongue which is now lost, but which survives as a spiritual substrate in both these language families. For on examining the vocabulary of the Tamil language, in appearance so foreign to the Sanskrit form and character, I yet found myself continuously guided by words, or families of words supposed to be pure Tamil, in establishing new relations between Sanskrit and its distant sister, Latin, and occasionally between the Greek and the Sanskrit. Sometimes the Tamil vocable not only suggested the connection but proved the missing link in a family of connected words. And it was through this Dravidian language that I came first to perceive what seems to me now the true law, origins and, as it were, the embryology of the Aryan tongues…The possibility suggests itself that they may even have been two diversions, or families derived from one lost primitive tongue (5). The immediate implication is that the so-called Aryan-Dravidian divide is without any merit or substance. Incidentally, Indian astronomers started observing the sky minutely, and recording the position of stars as early as 24,000 BP. Raj Vedam of Indian Historical Awareness and Research (IHAR) quotes from Chapter 230, Verses 8-11 of Mahabharata, Vana Parva where it is mentioned that Kritikka nakshatra was at summer solstice, which happened 23.8-22.8k years ago. This means that Indian sages have been observing the skies from 24,000 years ago. This is a staggering amount of time, that completely belies everything that we have been taught! Our popular romantic sentiment is that 24,000 years ago there were cave men who had clubs and were beating each other on the head… running around and grunting “ugghh … uggh… uggh”, those kind of things. But here you have a complex bunch of observations happening 24,000 years ago. So there is something wrong with the narrative that has been forced-fed (to us).” (Vedam, 2016) Conclusion Over the ages we have lost and rediscovered our knowledge systems many times. Yet every time we have managed to regain our knowledge but never in the same way as before. Like a Banyan tree we have spread and survived. Our roots are all around. Our history is not a book to be dusted and kept in a shelf. Our history and traditions live through each one of us. Every moment of our lives is a reflection of our ancient history. Children should be taught this history. The history of human beings, the history of plant and animals in Indian subcontinent, the history of mathematics, the history of science and technology and the history of politics, all these should be taught to them. For impressionable young minds, a positive and uplifting, broad sweeping canvas is necessary so as to produce confident future Indians who can create an inspiring future for mankind at large. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted December 13, 2019 " It has often been said that humanity's history is a fabrication, littered with lies and omissions, but this has never been conclusively proven, until now. What has been recently found in Australia is unequivocal in rewriting convenient versions of ancient history and the genesis of modern humans. We can now verify that Original Elders and custodians of the old way are correct in insisting that Australia is the cradle of humanity, and "that all peoples of the world come from us." But it doesn't end there. Religion, art, burial, sailing, astronomy, navigation, democracy, gender equality and all the nobler hallmarks of civilised behaviour, are original blessings exported from Australia. " Read more here ; https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/204222236?q&versionId=224199162 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted December 13, 2019 19 hours ago, ऋषि said: WOWWee!, what a big list you have there I am hoping 'list' isn't some modern slang word I have yet to encounter . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted December 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Nungali said: " It has often been said that humanity's history is a fabrication, littered with lies and omissions, but this has never been conclusively proven, until now. What has been recently found in Australia is unequivocal in rewriting convenient versions of ancient history and the genesis of modern humans. We can now verify that Original Elders and custodians of the old way are correct in insisting that Australia is the cradle of humanity, and "that all peoples of the world come from us." But it doesn't end there. Religion, art, burial, sailing, astronomy, navigation, democracy, gender equality and all the nobler hallmarks of civilised behaviour, are original blessings exported from Australia. " Read more here ; https://trove.nla.gov.au/work/204222236?q&versionId=224199162 Everyone gets a trophy 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
