Some more advice needed on practice

[Boerewors]

As previously stated in my introductory post, I am a Western occultist, I've been doing seated meditation for the past 9 months, I've also been doing different kinds of visualization training, mainly from Robert Bruce's "tactile imaging". Sometimes I went on a spirit journey to what the Shamans call the Lower World, after this I have felt drained, this is because the energy body is most likely still weak and an infant, and as such I started Zhan Zhuang, 10-20 minutes a day after those practices.

 

I intend to start practicing a dynamic or moving qigong now. I have many books on the subject since I have always been kind of into Daoism, getting much more into it now though. I'm thinking about starting out from two different systems, one by Zhongxian Wu, and another by Damo Mitchell. I also have all the Daoist books of Jerry Alan Johnson, but they all seem really complex and not a place to start, so one of these two systems will have to do. Between starting with practices from Zhongxian Wu and Damo Mitchell, which would you recommend?

 

Also, I intend on buying Thunder Wizard's book's on Thunder Shamanism, and also adding that to my daily practice. I am aware he used to be called 5ElementTao on this forum, does anybody have experience with his books on Teutonic Shamanism and are they worth looking into?

 

Thank you for you consideration.

[Gerard]

The problem I see is this:

 

1. Reading too much.

2. Not moving enough. 
 

1. You'll condition your own practice to other people's experiences rather than fully experiencing "everything" for your self. 
 

2. Stagnation. 
 

It's a problem of pandemic proportions.

 

Walking meditation for 12h a day without reading would fix many of your problems. The less you read the better.

 

Good luck!

[RiverSnake]

I read one of Fivelementao's books on Thunder Shamanism and enjoyed it, but never went to deep with any of his methods. The Norse current is wide and deep and i ended up finding my place among other streams. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Shadow

[blackturtlesnake]

I like Damo's work. I looked up Zhongxian Wu cause I didn't know much about him and apparently he does an interview series with Damo, so sounds like you'd be good with either 

As always, it is best to learn with a teacher though so check in your area. Other than that I'd say stop worrying and start having fun doing some qigong!

Edit: I should also add, stick to the intro work if you're gonna try to do this on your own. Mixing practices without knowing what you're doing or trying more advanced practices without being prepared can lead to problems. 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by blackturtlesnake

[Boerewors]

2 hours ago, Gerard said:

2. Not moving enough.

I appreciate your concern, but assure you that I do move enough. I do 2 fullbody workouts a week, as well as cycling for 1 hour 3 times a week on the days I don't and on the weekend I speedwalk in place, until I reach 10000 steps, Saturdays and Sundays. So the exercise part isn't at all a problem. I would like to walk outside though, but I live in a pretty dangerous place, and it isn't always possible, thank you for your concern though.

 

1 hour ago, Shadow said:

I read one of Fivelementao's books on Thunder Shamanism and enjoyed it

Thank you, I guess i will get his books then. I appreciate you taking the time to tell me about it.

 

26 minutes ago, blackturtlesnake said:

As always, it is best to learn with a teacher though so check in your area. Other than that I'd say stop worrying and start having fun doing some qigong!

I should have probably mentioned, there are no teachers where I live. However, in about a year and a half from now, I will be moving to a city in the Netherlands, where there is a teacher close to where I will be staying. This guy is a lineage holder in Taiji, and has also been initiated into the Shamanistic EMEI Zhengong tradition and Longmen Pai under Zhongxian Wu. I assume that once I move there, that I'll be learning from him.

 

With that in mind, do you still think Damo Mitchell's is the best practice to adopt? Or would it be better to learn the foundations of the type of qigong that the guy I'll be learning from does? I have primarily read Damo Mitchell's books, and it does certainly seem the more friendly for novices like myself though, but I do have Wu's books, the first two that is, so I can start with either.

 

Thanks for you consideration friend. Have a pleasant night.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

10 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

 So the exercise part isn't at all a problem. I would like to walk outside though, but I live in a pretty dangerous place, and it isn't always possible, thank you for your concern though.

 

I had more or less the same thoughts as Gerard did i think, and in my opinion it’s not a question of exercising enough but rather incurring stagnation because of overfocusing on Zhan Zuang without moving qigong exercises to counterbalance it. Get all the exercise you want and need, but be wary of how easily it can reinforce tension, blockages and bad habits.

 

Stand Like A Post is a powerful exercise, but practiced alone by a beginner (i sort of assume in the strict sense of classical chinese energy work) who has not studied Sung Fa or Song Gong (the dynamic form of relaxation that is central to most of the ”soft” arts) you will be aggravating your negative conditioning more than shedding it.

I mean spinal alignment, unconsciously lifting your shoulders or being overly tight around ribcage or the jaw etc.

Post Standing is awesome and challenging but as with most seemingly simple techniques they are often the most powerful and overlooked.

 

Look up Song Gong, there are good videos that explain a lot of details on how to move and what it feels like.

 

Stay safe in your living area either way and good fortunes in picking up qigong!

[RiverSnake]

He has a youtube channel, not watched any of it yet, but may be of useful. 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ThunderWizarddotcom/videos

 

 

I have listened to every episode of his podcast, it is excellent, though no longer active. 

https://thunderwizard.podbean.com 

 

 

 

 

[Boerewors]

15 hours ago, Rocky Lionmouth said:

Look up Song Gong, there are good videos that explain a lot of details on how to move and what it feels like.

Like this?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPV1MfVyMEE

 

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Thats exactly one of the videos i was thinking about, nice catch!

[Boerewors]

Thank you for your advice. I will look into it and start practicing this as per your recommendation. After a couple of months of this I'll add Damo Mitchell or Zhongxian Wu's practices to my practice as well. I hope you have a pleasant evening man. 

[Rara]

On 09/12/2019 at 11:54 PM, Rocky Lionmouth said:

 

I had more or less the same thoughts as Gerard did i think, and in my opinion it’s not a question of exercising enough but rather incurring stagnation because of overfocusing on Zhan Zuang without moving qigong exercises to counterbalance it. Get all the exercise you want and need, but be wary of how easily it can reinforce tension, blockages and bad habits.

 

Stand Like A Post is a powerful exercise, but practiced alone by a beginner (i sort of assume in the strict sense of classical chinese energy work) who has not studied Sung Fa or Song Gong (the dynamic form of relaxation that is central to most of the ”soft” arts) you will be aggravating your negative conditioning more than shedding it.

I mean spinal alignment, unconsciously lifting your shoulders or being overly tight around ribcage or the jaw etc.

Post Standing is awesome and challenging but as with most seemingly simple techniques they are often the most powerful and overlooked.

 

Look up Song Gong, there are good videos that explain a lot of details on how to move and what it feels like.

 

Stay safe in your living area either way and good fortunes in picking up qigong!

 

Perhaps, although for some, just standing works. It'll take some trial and error.

 

@Boerewors Just on what @Gerard said...if everything still gets a bit much, do consider simplifying your reading. Often I find it more useful to ditch the books altogether in order to make progress.

 

Emptying the cup, and all that jazz.

[beingnature]

Try out the books of lam kam chuen.They have awesome loosening and warm up excercises for zhang zhuang.especially the advanced ones in the way of power.

[Boerewors]

1 hour ago, NATURE BEEING said:

Try out the books of lam kam chuen.They have awesome loosening and warm up excercises for zhang zhuang.especially the advanced ones in the way of power.

It's ironic that you mention this, because I have three of his books, namely the Way of Power,  Everyday Chi Kung, and Walking Chi Kung. And I actually use his method of standing instead of Damo Mitchells, because I find it works better on the knees, and the "sitting back" part from Damo Mitchell's book doesn't work well for me. 

 

Damo Mitchell's advice on the Yong Quan and feet were quite good though, so I used that, but instead of shifting my weight forward, I spread my toes out and push them into the floor, I can feel the "bubbling", more like burning, in my feet when I do this. Thanks for your advice. Have a good day man.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Boerewors

[moment]

On 12/9/2019 at 12:51 PM, Boerewors said:

As previously stated in my introductory post, I am a Western occultist, I've been doing seated meditation for the past 9 months, I've also been doing different kinds of visualization training, mainly from Robert Bruce's "tactile imaging". Sometimes I went on a spirit journey to what the Shamans call the Lower World, after this I have felt drained, this is because the energy body is most likely still weak and an infant, and as such I started Zhan Zhuang, 10-20 minutes a day after those practices.

 

I intend to start practicing a dynamic or moving qigong now. I have many books on the subject since I have always been kind of into Daoism, getting much more into it now though. I'm thinking about starting out from two different systems, one by Zhongxian Wu, and another by Damo Mitchell. I also have all the Daoist books of Jerry Alan Johnson, but they all seem really complex and not a place to start, so one of these two systems will have to do. Between starting with practices from Zhongxian Wu and Damo Mitchell, which would you recommend?

 

Also, I intend on buying Thunder Wizard's book's on Thunder Shamanism, and also adding that to my daily practice. I am aware he used to be called 5ElementTao on this forum, does anybody have experience with his books on Teutonic Shamanism and are they worth looking into?

 

Thank you for you consideration.

Do you have any groups nearby, in the park,etc, doing Tai Chi? Also, it is better to know one or two things extremely well, than many things only so-so.  One of the main tenets of Tao is simplicity. Behave simply and hold onto purity.--- Tao Te Ching ch. 19

Edited December 11, 2019 by moment

[RiverSnake]

Lot of paths, its important to find what energies you as an individual are most strongly resonant with and walk the path true to your nature. Discovering this is a process. 

[Boerewors]

8 minutes ago, moment said:

Do you have any groups nearby, in the park,etc, doing Tai Chi?

I live in the non-gated suburbs of South Africa, and even in the gated suburbs, that does not occur, so unfortunately there isn't anything like that here. If you look up our crime rates it's beneath only Brazil and Venezuela, but in reality, most people don't even report crimes here, so it's much worse, and statistics are generally off.

 

10 minutes ago, moment said:

Also, it is better to know one or two things extremely well, than many things only so-so.

I understand this sentiment, but in reality, Daoism on it's own, doesn't appeal to me that much, this is why it took so long for me to get into it. Daoism viewed from a pagan and Pythagorean-Orphic lens does. So to me, the works of Thunder Wizard will probably be inspiring because from what I understand,  he took what one current lacked, namely the energetic practices and Neidan, from another, breaking away the cultural and dogmatic attachments, and added it to another, completing it.

 

This is the type of thing I'm into, so I will be mixing currents a great deal. I understand why people would advise otherwise, and that it is dangerous. But to me it is essential to create my own way mixing what I deem necessary as time goes on. I'm an omnitrist, so I believe that the Gods and Daimons of say, Hellenic mythology, are related to the Celestials and Thunder gods of Daoism. So to me investigating something from many angles makes much more sense.

 

Here's an interesting video, that mentions exchange of Deities between the Hellenes and China, skip to 58 minutes - 

 

[moment]

15 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

I live in the non-gated suburbs of South Africa, and even in the gated suburbs, that does not occur, so unfortunately there isn't anything like that here. If you look up our crime rates it's beneath only Brazil and Venezuela, but in reality, most people don't even report crimes here, so it's much worse, and statistics are generally off.

 

I understand this sentiment, but in reality, Daoism on it's own, doesn't appeal to me that much, this is why it took so long for me to get into it. Daoism viewed from a pagan and Pythagorean-Orphic lens does. So to me, the works of Thunder Wizard will probably be inspiring because from what I understand,  he took what one current lacked, namely the energetic practices and Neidan, from another, breaking away the cultural and dogmatic attachments, and added it to another, completing it.

 

This is the type of thing I'm into, so I will be mixing currents a great deal. I understand why people would advise otherwise, and that it is dangerous. But to me it is essential to create my own way mixing what I deem necessary as time goes on. I'm an omnitrist, so I believe that the Gods and Daimons of say, Hellenic mythology, are related to the Celestials and Thunder gods of Daoism. So to me investigating something from many angles makes much more sense.

 

Here's an interesting video, that mentions exchange of Deities between the Hellenes and China, skip to 58 minutes - 

 

 

whatever

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Boerewors said:

I will be mixing currents a great deal. I understand why people would advise otherwise, and that it is dangerous. But to me it is essential to create my own way mixing what I deem necessary as time goes on.

Although this approach is fun and creative - it is exactly the wrong approach to take with Daoist practice.
 

Even within Daoist practice, you should not mix principles and practices to match your ideas... not only will it make your practice a waste of time, but as many have said - it is dangerous.

It’s not dangerous in the way that riding a motorbike is dangerous - i.e. it’s a calculated risk and you get the pleasure and exhilaration of going fast... and you may never crash.

 

It’s dangerous in the same way that drinking lead contaminated water is dangerous - you’re slowly damaging yourself without realising - until the toxicity is at such a level that your brain is functioning only at 40% capacity.
 

For example mixing principles from Damo’s Wuji with Zhang Zhuang is not only counterproductive, but actively dangerous - if you do what you’re suggesting, you’re simply raising and concentrating Qi at your heart... Do this for long enough and you’ll develop heart palpitations, panic attacks and extreme emotional swings.
 

These things can easily become irreversible too...

 

I just don’t see the point of risking life with a pacemaker just so you get to feel proud of yourself that you made up your own practice.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Boerewors said:

I believe that the Gods and Daimons of say, Hellenic mythology, are related to the Celestials and Thunder gods of Daoism. So to me investigating something from many angles makes much more sense.

Enjoy researching, reading, investigating and drawing parallels as much as you’d like!

 

But actively practicing in this self directed way is a path to ruin.

[Earl Grey]

Mixing currents leads to qi deviation. No medical professional, even some TCM doctors, can help if you do this. 

 

 

[Boerewors]

I don't mean to come across as disrespectful, but I'm not one for dogma, so here goes:

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

But actively practicing in this self directed way is a path to ruin.

I actually know many others that practice in such a self-directed way, and they tend to do fine. I understand that some aspects of Daoism are very orthodox and dogmatic, so I understand what you are saying, but choose to respectfully disagree. You're also assuming that I can't learn from benevolent spirits.

 

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Mixing currents leads to qi deviation. No medical professional, even some TCM doctors, can help if you do this.

The post you linked is indeed interesting, however, as previously stated I know many others who are doing just fine doing this kind of thing, they've been doing this for decades and are in excellent spiritual, mental, and physical health. These types of people work with all kinds of spirits, and while I'm still a novice myself, I have successfully evoked and invoked multiple times. I'm not mentally unstable or anything. But I do thank you for the concern.

 

As I stated in my intro, I'm a Western magician, and I believe syncretism with Daoism to be perfectly natural. If the day comes when I complain about qi deviation, you may point your fingers, say I told you so and laugh, but until then I will respectfully have to refrain from following a single path, because that is not for me. Thank you for your answer though, I hope I have not come across as disrespectful.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Boerewors

[Boerewors]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

For example mixing principles from Damo’s Wuji with Zhang Zhuang is not only counterproductive, but actively dangerous - if you do what you’re suggesting, you’re simply raising and concentrating Qi at your heart... Do this for long enough and you’ll develop heart palpitations, panic attacks and extreme emotional swings.

If what you suggest is I stick with the teachings of a single Daoist teacher, I will heed your advice and pick between the works of Jerry Alan Johnson and Damo Mitchell since they have comprehensive details about Neidan. This advice is extremely appreciated and I thank you for it.

[Earl Grey]

18 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

I don't mean to come across as disrespectful, but I'm not one for dogma, so here goes:

 

I actually know many others that practice in such a self-directed way, and they tend to do fine. I understand that some aspects of Daoism are very orthodox and dogmatic, so I understand what you are saying, but choose to respectfully disagree. You're also assuming that I can't learn from benevolent spirits.

 

The post you linked is indeed interesting, however, as previously stated I know many others who are doing just fine doing this kind of thing, they've been doing this for decades and are in excellent spiritual, mental, and physical health. These types of people work with all kinds of spirits, and while I'm still a novice myself, I have successfully evoked and invoked multiple times. I'm not mentally unstable or anything. But I do thank you for the concern.

 

As I stated in my intro, I'm a Western magician, and I believe syncretism with Daoism to be perfectly natural. If the day comes when I complain about qi deviation, you may point your fingers, say I told you so and laugh, but until then I will respectfully have to refrain from following a single path, because that is not for me. Thank you for your answer though, I hope I have not come across as disrespectful.

Whatever.
 

You’ve been warned by several of us who’ve done this for years.

 

If you’re so set on harming your body and developing psychoses as a self-initiate like we’ve seen so many of in this forum over the years, knock yourself out.

[Boerewors]

1 minute ago, Earl Grey said:

Whatever.
 

You’ve been warned by several of us who’ve done this for years.

 

If you’re so set on harming your body and developing psychoses as a self-initiate like we’ve seen so many of in this forum over the years, knock yourself out.

Not very open-minded or respectful of people with different experiences than yours I see. Have a pleasant evening. 

[Earl Grey]

22 minutes ago, Boerewors said:

Not very open-minded or respectful of people with different experiences than yours I see. Have a pleasant evening. 

Sure, go look for confirmation bias  via people who are agreeable, then piss on people who actually know what they’re talking about, e.g. force your uninformed opinion to be true rather than listening to facts.

 

See you in a few months claiming to be enlightened and spamming the forum with a lot of garbage everywhere in a few years with the self-appointed authority to call yourself a master.

 

I swear, these self-initiated and power-seekers think they’re playing with Legos and really are mixing the periodic table, all over Reddit trying to be Jedi, are somehow coming here and beating their chests when people point out they’re drinking hydrochloric acid.

 

Whatever.

Edited December 11, 2019 by Earl Grey